I got a team. IT'SU Project, it's doctor Lillian, it's Doctor Tiffany, and it's the shitkicker from Moe that's right to Academics, and the moccasin wearing Bogan from Little Travali. I hope this finds you. Well, it's a Monday as we record. It's a two twenty pm Monday version of a podcast. We'll start with the pugilist down at the bottom of my screen, who's looking very academic in her big fucking gigantic academic geek glasses.
How are you My eyes are so blurry today, even with these on.
What is that about?
Is that?
Do you know what? Sometimes there's a correlation between blood pressure and blurry eyes. Oh and of course tiredness and blurry eyes. And there's a bunch of things. But maybe you just got a bit of snot in them.
I don't know how old you get snot in my eyes up.
Well, I don't mean snot, I just mean, you know, like mukissy stuff. You know, that's just I'll listen to gross because you neither of you would like pooh or anything or or have snott le mucus. Because you both princesses.
That's right. I'm wearing glasses too, so we're in the glasses club, Tiffany. But mine is because of age. It has nothing to do with stuff in my eyes.
When did you when when did you hit the the visual wall?
Well, for this, this visual wall, which is the age related one where you can't see things close, I hit that wall like really significantly, only in like the last six to eight months. I feel like before I was losing it, probably a few years ago, like like it was becoming more difficult, but it wasn't that bad. But now I go to a restaurants and I'm like, Okay, can't read this. The lights too dim, it's too small, Like
what is your problem? Which is annoying because I hate where I actually hate glasses because I've always had vision issues because i couldn't see far from age seven, so
I've always had to wear glasses or contacts. And then I decided, like five years ago, I think during COVID, I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to like have the laser surgery and I'm going to have like this moment in my life where i can wake up and see the world as it is rather than having to wait to like put my contacts in, and so I did and it was fine. But now this vision issue has happened, so it's like, well, what the why did I do that? Now I'm going to have to
wear glasses or contacts again. So it was very short lived.
But what about what about you cook Sorry? Sorry, million, what about you cooks?
I had glasses for quite a while, but my eyes saw it to take in a notable dive in the last twelve months because now I'm finding kind of have to start wearing them.
I reckon forty ish is about the time for a lot of people it is.
I was r.
Yeah. I was born with what they used to call I don't know what the actual medical name is, but in the old days, I was born with a lazy eye. Have you ever heard that term?
My mom's got that.
Yeah, and I don't know what it's but my left eye was turned like just so handsome. So instead of it being the normal kind of you know, I don't know, like the clocks on our hands. On a clock is like say three point fifteen, you know, straight nine and three straight horizontal, it was turned I don't know which way. But then when I was five, so I had corrective surgery on my wonky eye. I don't know if they do this anymore. And it was weak, like I couldn't
see shit out of it was terrible. And so they back then was we're going to give you surgery on this side, We're going to straighten that. Then we're going to make you walk around like a fucking pirate with a patch over a good eye. Like so I was a five year old pirate. All I needed was a parrot and it didn't help, and I kept I just bumped into shit and it didn't it didn't improve it or a little. And even now, yeah, my left eye
now is terrible. My right eye is pretty much awesome, but my left eye is negligible in terms of the value that I get from it.
So yeah, that was the same process for my nephew who's about twenty five now. He had the same thing where he had to wear a patch for a period of time when he was young, and probably other other things as well, I think so, I do think so. But it might not have been just that that helped him. Might have been like other things that I'm not I don't remember that he did. But yeah, I know, what's.
Up, doc, What have you been up to? What's news? How's the world of psychology? A paper? More broken? Less broken? Are you healing minds and waving your bloody cognitive magic over the population? What are you doing well?
My work with my clients is great because I love doing it and a lot of them have don't need me anymore, so that's good for them, which is great. So on that front great. I also took a nice long break and I went away with my daughter for a bit and visited my family and spent some time in other places that I hadn't been in decades, which was really nice. And now I'm back back on the work train. And I always have a lot of balls
in the air with work. So I have my practice, and then I have the you know, containing your brain app and then i'm you know, working on new projects. And I did a speaking engagement a couple of weeks ago, which was something I don't do anymore. I used to do much more often before COVID, but I was completely
out of practice. So that was very stressful cray because I had to do a presentation in front of a hundred people and live and normally like I could completely do that no problem online I'm very you know, I've always and I've done it in the past to more than a hundred people, but I'm just completely out of practice, and so, yeah, i was over preparing and you know, all the stuff that you do when you're feeling stressed about something. No, but it went well, it went well.
I enjoyed it. I always like it when I do it. Sometimes I wonder about the balance between the level of stress and time and then the satisfaction that you get after and like, what, you know, is it worth like is it something that I should pursue or not? And then I'm like and then I have to like think to myself, Okay, well, if I do it more, it's going to be less stressful and I'm not going to have to prepare as much. So the balance is going to be different the next time.
Yes, yeah, But.
Because I'm always doing so many things, I'm not sure about which things to prioritize. You know, I think you've.
Got to be really passionate about it. TIFF's kind of opened the door on corporate speaking and public speaking, and
she's good at it and she's got vast potential. But and we speak about this a lot, you can't be good at the thing that you don't do much, you know, And so it's like with and even speaking online, which I know you're naturally a good communicator, right, But even for me if I don't do one for say six or eight weeks, which is not that often that that happens, but yeah, when I get back, I'm like, it takes
me a minute to find my feet. Yeah, but when I bang them out, Like the last six weeks, I've done at least one every week, and some of them like I've got one this Friday. It's all day. It's me on stage all day with the room full of humans, and it's just that it's just I mean, for me, it's like training. It's like reps. It's like sets. It's like you can't get strong without getting to the gym and doing the work and doing the reps and doing
the sets and like. And even if your knowledge is good and your technical skills are good, and you know you're well qualified and all of that, it's not the same as being able to stand on a stage or whatever the situation is, being in front of you know, twenty fifty one hundred, one thousand people and being able to in the moment, read the room and build rapport and build connect and understand the experience of the audience while you're up there in real time trying to keep
your shit together, think about what you're going to say, but also have enough situational and I guess social intelligence and awareness to be able to go is this landing or is this missing? And if it's missing, what do I need to do to get it back on track? Like what are they telling me without actually saying anything, Because the audience are always speaking to you even when they're not speaking to you. So for me, there's that that And again the other thing too is like what
works for me? Would I would not suggest for you? You know. I did one last week at Lawn and this lady who spoke before me. I mentioned this the other day on the show. But she was great. But she was very organized, very structured, very slick, very polished, very well presented, very articulate and just fucking bang on, you know, and very like, very good at what she did.
But everything was very structured and organized. And then I get up I'm like a golden retriever, but you know, chasing its right, and it just to be able to get up there and no, no, it's and no presentation and no slides and just start talking and see where the room's at and see where I'm going to go, which is, by the way, not the best way to do it, but it's the best way to do it
for me. So I think about you're getting reps in, you need to figure out also what's good for you, Like what's the how much information, how much storytelling, how
much humor if any? Like Tip's got good stories, and I think it's always good, like banging out a story and then kind of exploring the message in the story, because once you tell a story, you've got if it's a good story, and if you're not a shit storyteller, you've got emotional connection, right, But when you're just blurting out data or information or theory, you don't get the same level of engagement. Generally.
Yeah, it's it is helpful to tie it into something relatable and I you know, it's funny the storytelling things. My dad is like the best storyteller, Like he's so good at it, and I don't think it's filtered down. I can do like I can relate something like relate information to something relatable and practical but not in the
form of a story. Often like it's in the form of like, oh, you know, like you know times when you do this or you know that kind of segue or you know, way of relating a practical thing to something real, because you know, I always say to people like I haven't I haven't trained as a storyteller. I'm a story listener, and that's that's what I do. That's what I do. Yeah, and that's maybe what I'm good
at as well, But I don't. It's not about me, like it's so like so it's it's just a little it's a little bit more effort for me to think about how do I engage them, And it's not necessarily going to be via It could be via a story, for sure, but it might be via other ways of Like for instance, with this group, I did some practical exercises along, so I've always explaining different strategies we actually
did some of them together. Or I'd related to something that I knew that they were all into sports, and so I'd relate a lot of the things that I said to and what an athlete might do or how an athlete might think about something, or you know, or just talk about it in general, we're all you know, on the same page with that. We all have similar interests. So, like you said, there's lots of different ways to go about something and impart information, and you don't have to
be the same as somebody else. Everyone's got their own way. And it would have been probably a really good experience for that audience you're talking about to have completely two different, you know, presentations done in different ways, because it would have suited you know, a whole range of people having it having you know, those two different options.
I think, So what about you, tif have you how have you changed your reckon over the last five years standing in front of groups like as, how has your stuff evolved?
Well? I think obviously this year a lot because I'm doing a course that's pushing me in to areas that I don't normally go in terms of how I structure the information and plan it a lot more meticulously than what is my general way, And I think there's a lot of really beneficial positives in that. But there's a lot of internal pushback that I have to battle through because it's uncomfortable and it's unme right, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, And the pushback is good because you do have to keep it true to yourself as well. I think sometimes that's helpful to have that structure and like, know what a nice structure looks like and what are the ingredients to a good presentation, but then have that real flexibility and personal touch to it so that it's still you. It's not cookie cutter, and it doesn't have to be exactly the way that it's being taught.
But what about communication more broadly though, for both of you. Right, Like you sit down and you would talk about a lot of the same issues with people, or there would be issues or topics that you revisit if you coach people. Lillions of psychologists different but you know, not in the it's not that far apart. Like, let's start with you, Lylan, Like, how do you know if person A is depressed and dealing with a bit of anxiety, in person B is
the same, in person SEE is the same. You know, same kind of issue, but there are three different people. How do you know where to go? How do you know where to start.
When they're in a group or as individuals?
I no, no individual Like if I come to you and I'm anxious, and then Tiff comes to you and she's anxious, and then Brian comes to you and he's anxious. Right, it might be manifesting differently in each of us, and it might kind of be the same thing in inverted commas that we're experiencing. But you know, telling us all to go away and do ABC might not be the answer.
So do you know, how do you know how to figure out what's going to work for Tiff, what's going to work for Craig, what's going to work for Brian? Like what's the starting point with trying to read that? You know, It's like my analogy would be, you know, a doctor doesn't give everyone the same medication even if they've got similar issues, you know, So what's that starting point for you?
Well, starting point we call it like just the assessment phase, I suppose, And sometimes that's one session, sometimes sometimes it's more depending on who's in front of you, but asking a lot of questions, you know, getting that you know, permission from them to ask them, a lot of questions that might be about their their long term history, their short term history, what they've actually come in for that day.
Why now, like you know, if this has been a problem for a while, why are they coming to you know today, why is it important to deal with it now? Thinks about their personality, their current environment and circumstances, things that might be obstacles to doing certain strategies and treatments, like taking kind of all of that into account, and then also just on the actual problem, assessing that in
a lot of detail. So anxiety, you know, people use anxiety for lots of things, and there is there's anxiety that's normative that some people think isn't like right, And there is what we call like subclinical anxiety problems, so something that's a problem but it's not at the level
of like a clinical disorder. And then there is disorders, right, we have the panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, you know, the whole range of anxiety related disorders and associated disorders like OCD and PTSD that can all be anxiety if someone comes in for that problem, So you're also assessing, like, you know, what are the actual symptoms, how are they impacting their lives? And then also what's going to give them success as soon as possible, Like what's going to
give them relief as soon as possible. So a lot goes into.
That.
So what I tend to do is I have the I asked the questions that I think are the most permanent to the problem, and then I developed like a like a little brief formulation like what what do I think is going on? Why it's going on? What what are the factors that are making this person more vulnerable to this problem or maintaining the problem. And I talk to the person about this is what I'm thinking based on what you said? Does this sound right? You know,
like get them to collaborate with me. Is this am I on the money? Does this sound right? And then give them like a plan based on that, so like, here's what Here are the goals that you have. Here are the things that I think could help you reach those goals. And here would be the out you know, the outcomes that we would expect, and you know, a time frame often around that as well. And then to get their input on that what seems like, you know,
out of these strategies, what do you think? So giving them like structure based on like experience and evidence and what works for the problem that they're bringing in, but also giving them you know, that that empowering them to tell me like is am I accurate? If I am accurate? Are these the strategies that they're interested in doing. Why or why not? What are what's going to get in the way And then let's let's see what happens. Start with strategy one and see what happens kind of thing.
So yeah, I like that because I mean I love the idea of a collaborative kind of process where it's not you telling somewhat what to do. You know, it's both of you figuring out obviously with your guidance and expertise and quolls you know what might you know, Like here's what I think. How does that sound to you?
Yeah? And you know what's really funny about that too, is like you, you know, we're trained to go into it collaboratively, but sometimes you'll you'll get people saying, no, I just want you to tell me.
What to do, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course right.
And so you have to be amenable to that too, like that's what they're actually asking for. They don't want to be, you know, like having to make another decision potentially, like that might be adding more stress and anxiety. Am I going to choose the right pathway for me? Kind
of thing? And so if they want you to take the reins I'm I try to be again as collaborative as possible, but if that's what they really want, I'm happy to do that as well and then review it, you know, like is this going how you want it to go? And be making positive changes? And if not, then we can tweak it again.
I'm the same a bit. I say to even the people that I work with, even the exercise space, which I guess I would loosely be called an expert, I say, listen, despite all the work I've done, all the bodies I've worked with, all the programs I've written, all the assessments I've done, it's still high level guessing because I don't know how your body will respond to this stimulus and TIF.
So you're not a psych neither am I. So like we zoom out, you do kind of perhaps more multi dimensional big picture where you talk to people about food and exercise and changing habits and thinking and lifestyle. Do you have a set protocol when somebody comes through the door, the metaphorical literal door, or do you just you bet Craig Harper, do you freestyle a little bit and see what happens?
Yeah, there is no set protocol here because I think people are so different and what they come for. I think when people land to work one on one with me lately, they've listened, They've really gotten to know me in the way I think from the podcast, which is awesome, and they're often coming with a bit of a multifaceted kind of where to now approach, like they've tried a heap of stuff and I don't know, Well, that's the
way I see it. And I just think over the last few years, having those, all the conversations I have, has stopped me from trying to feel like I need to have these answers. Like I've gotten into a really a space where I really comfortable just being curious and listening and exploring and finding our way together. Whereas I, yeah, when I first started coaching more in the mindset realm than the physical because that was always a lot easier. It always worried me to be like, well, where wats
the solution? Where are we taking people? And of course we don't know. They don't know. Always Sometimes where they say they want to go is a bit of a trojan horse to use one of your turns. It's like they think they want this, when really they want that.
I totally agree with you.
You think about even if we talk about you know, Lilian's area of expertise, which is human behavior and the mind and the brain and all of you know, the cognitive, psychological,
emotional stuff. But then you draw all the branches out from that trunk, then all the things that we talk about, like well, foods can affect your brain and your mindset and your mental health and sleep and booze and hydration and lifestyle and friendships and relationships and bullshit and you know, traffic, and like there are you know, and that there are Like I talk about a lot of a lot of things that I am not, i guess technically qualified to
talk about. But I don't need to be a dietitian to say to Brian, hey, make cocoa pops are probably not your optimal fucking choice for breakfast champ right. You know, we don't need a five year master's degree in nutrition to say cut back on the junk food. I think
that's a pretty safe piece of advice. And I think that that you know, knowing that when someone comes through to you, like their big limitation could be that they just have shitty self esteem and no self belief or for somebody, it could be they just eat twice the amount of calories they need every day, or for old mate, it could be because he or she sits in a chair twelve hours a day. So I think it's that
very much. Let's do a bit of a stock take and an assessment, not just with their food or with their body, or with their mind, or with their job or you know, but let's have a let's zoom out and see what's going on. Let's see what each one hundred and sixty eight hours of a week kind of looks like for them. Tell me about a typical day for you. I've said more than a thousand times, from when you get out of bed to when you go to bed, tell me about a day. Tell me about
a normal day. Tell me about work, food, conversations, situations, working, who you're around. Does that real night for you?
Doc? Oh yeah, I mean that's part of what we tend to like. If I'm talking about my clinical clients, one of the main things that we do is exactly that, like self monitoring. We call it self monitoring. So like they might record, depending on what the issues are, but they often will record, you know, what do they do in a day, or it might be what if it's an emotional issue, like when does this emotion come up
for you? And then write down what the situation was, what you were thinking, what your response was, and with that information, then we start seeing patterns. There might be patterns in the situation. There might be patterns in the thoughts and beliefs, There might be patterns in the way the feelings are expressed, there might be patterns in the responses to the emotional upheaval. And then we can when there's clarity around that for me and for my client,
then we can start doing something about it. You know, if it's mainly a situation about the situation, it's like, okay, what can we do about can we do something about it?
Sometimes you can't do something about it, so you move on to something different, right, you move on to okay, well, how can we regulate your feelings or how can we plan for these situations so that you know, the feelings don't come up so intensely, or what are your interpretations and beliefs and perspectives about this situation that might be leading to these kinds of emotional responses or behavioral responses, or can we switch how you respond and see how
that works better maybe next time, and do some experiments around that. So there's so many different ways that you can do it. I mean, ultimately, I feel like we're all trying to help people do the same thing, which is create a life worth living and for people to have the balance that they want, whatever that is for them, like whatever success is for them, whatever balance is for them.
And like you were saying, Tiffany, and how what you've often said, Craig, and what I always say as well, is that there's no one formula for that, right because because not everyone's version of success is the same. Not everyone's version of you know, like or tolerance even or resilience is the same, you know, So what I want to get to is may be different to what somebody else wants to get to. You have to take all
of that into account. But yeah, I know, for I do some coaching as well, like I do my clinical side, and I do some like I mean, my company is called Skills for Life, so part of that is coaching as well, So Skills for Life coaching, I suppose you could call it what to call it, But it's different to clinical psychology because clinical psychology is like analogous to like go into your GP to treat like an illness for instance, Right, you're you know, we're not medical model obviously,
but like we're helping treat an actual problem so that person can manage or get better basically, whereas coaching is more like how do we improve your life? There's with you know, they're there may still be a mental illness on board, but that you don't need to treat it like it's it's treated or it's managed, and you're just like, well, how do you make your life what you want it to be? Yeah, So that's how I kind of see the difference, I reckon.
One of the things that not a lot of people would think about is the times when you as a coach, for you as a psychologist or coach or mayors or whatever the fuck I am, when you're going in to be with someone for now as the I don't like the term, but the expert or pseudo expert, or the leader in that relationship for an hour or the rector of operations for that hour, whatever, But when you I don't know, this is what I want to know for
you too. So there's been obviously many times in my life where I've had to do a talk or a coaching session or a personal training session where I felt fucking terrible myself. Like I'm going in to help someone get their shit together mentally, emotionally, physically, practically, and I feel sad, or I feel anxious, or I feel exhausted, and I don't want to fucking do this right now.
That's just I mean, I want to do it, yeah, you know in that Like I remember, I had an absis on, which is disgusting, one of my back teeth, and I had this I had to do this big gig the next day, and I had to. I had a sleepless night. I ended up going to the dentist really earlier. I had all these pain meds. I had not slept for thirty six hours. The last thing in the world old I wanted to do was stand in front of a bunch of people, be funny, be interesting.
I didn't even want to fucking look at anyone. I just wanted to lie down and rock back and forth and feel sorry for myself. But it's like, no, bro, you're getting paid all this money and there's two hundred people, So turn the fuck up and be awesome, you know, it's like that that and or it doesn't have to
be that dramatic. It could just be in the middle of a session when you're with someone and you realize in that session you're actually worse than them, they're doing better than you, Like they're doing tiff of you, Like, how do you manage that tiff? Because I know that you're a bit of a roller coaster like me at times, and you've talked about it a lot where you want to punch the wall or something. How do you self regulate when you've got to sit down and be you know, yoda for someone.
Well, I think the beauty of it is when you are so focused on listening and being with someone else, the focus is completely removed from whatever is Like sometimes I come out feeling better, not just because I've had a break from thinking about my own bullshit, but because I might feel like I've done some good or we've had a breakthrough, or they're leaving the conversation better for that.
So yeah, I love that. That's so true.
Wow, therapy for you is giving them therapy. Yeah, that's true, isn't it.
Yeah?
Yeah, what about Lilian, do you have at a moment where you're just doing it and you're not really feeling it, but you need to find your way back into it.
So there's I mean there's certainly times where I've felt tired or maybe distracted by something else going on or that I need to do or something like that or what you said, the thing where like they said something and you realize they're doing it better than me, or like today, you know, like that's happened a few times
with like parenting ones. You know, like you'll clients are, I mean, my clients can be and I'm sure this is representative of a lot of people like very hard on themselves, parenting mothers especially, like so hard on themselves, and they might be talking about something that they said or did with their kids and they're like just you know, judging themselves and you know crusius, you know, crucifying themselves for it. And I'm thinking, no, that's like every other day,
what do you mean? So you know, like that might be like things like that, and so sometimes when things like that happen, I think it's helpful to you know, have that kind of self disclosure with your clients to normal, you know, to help them understand that what they're judging themselves for the level of judgment is unnecessary and judgment
is actually just going to keep them stuck. But in terms of like, if something's going on in my own life that I think is going to distract from doing my work, psychologists actually have LIKET as part of their regulatory you know, standards or obligations is to have supervision with somebody else on a regular basis, so that those times where you're feeling overwhelmed or stressed or stuck and that might be personal or to do with a client or you know, you might or that you know they're
not achieving the change and you're like, I must be doing something. Can you where am I being blocked in this situation? So we do that on a regular basis, is just part of our job, and that's super helpful and I think probably missing from a lot of other industries just that person that you always have a sounding board and that can be one person or a group of people. So that's really helpful. And then the other thing is besides what Tiffany said, cause I actually think
that's really true. When you enter into your client space, I put I'm a professional in that space, and I and I become you know, that person. You know, I'm there to listen and to help, and you become immersed in that and that helps you get through, you know, in some ways, like you said, because it's so rewarding whatever is on your mind.
This is going to sound Oh sorry, this is going to sound ironic. Sorry to cut you off. I'll tell you finished. But coming from the bloke who has this show and talks about all the stuff that we talk about, and this is for both of you. But we'll start with Lilian. At what point does analyzing and reanalyzing our life and our behavior and our outcomes and our intentions and our when does it go from being a good
thing to maybe not such a good thing? Like I feel like we can overanalyze the fuck out of everything. It's like, and then it's it's we almost back ourselves into a corner where it's analysis paralysis, and it's like we're constantly finding fault in ourselves and everything we do. And like, I don't know, I think self help, personal development, self awareness great and then not great, then not great, Like is there any kind of signs or symptoms that
maybe we're fucking overthinking stuff too? Like I think sometimes we underthink, but is there anything for either of you. We'll start with you though, Vilin like that is perhaps a symptom of this is becoming more of a negative than a positive.
Yeah, I think that. I mean the symptoms are off in anxiety and self concept. Comparison self concept, well, I mean comparison is part of that overthinking, you know, like like, yeah, self awareness is so great. You know, this is yours. I always want to talk about this with UK because
it's obviously your topic. But like, self awareness is so important, but you can go overboard, Like there's anxiety is functional, but we can go overboard with anxiety, right, stress is functional, but we can go over We can go overboard with anything. Anything functional can be dysfunctional. So, like, I think it's helpful to ask yourself if you find yourself thinking a lot about something, how is this helping me?
Yeah?
And is this leading to me doing something about it? Like, because ruminating over something is a problem because it doesn't lead to anything. It's just leads to more thinking. And
thinking doesn't solve problems. Doing something solves problems. Sometimes things don't have solutions, And that's why people get stuck in a rumination cycle because they're thinking about stuff that's happened in the past that they can't do anything about, or they're thinking about potential problems in the future that they may or may not have some you know, any control over. And so for problems that aren't solvable, I don't think people have really good skills for that, and that's why
they get stuck. Yeah, but the skill and the skills are not easy skills. The skills aren't well, some of them aren't. I suppose like you can just distract yourself. That's like an easy skill, but it's not a really good solution for all the time. But the hard thing is like things like acceptance. Yeah, thing is tolerating distress, yes, you know, which is kind of an acceptance skill as well.
So you know those times where we don't know and we're not going to or we want control but we don't have it, or we want to fix things but we don't have the power to do that, or we want to save a relationship but the other person doesn't want to. So you know, like those times where like or you know, like those big problems that you know, political or war or climate change where we feel like, oh, I can't do anything about that, or you know it's too big or you know, those kinds of things. I
think that's what causes a lot of anxiety. The problems that we can solve. You can solve, you know, like it's.
I think one of the good questions is what is the physiological consequence of this psychological obsession, Like what's happening in my body with all this rumination and this obsession. Tiff, what are your thoughts on this jump in you with your new glasses.
I think for myself, I was thinking about it as Lily was talking. I think for myself it personally, it often comes back to the ability to help much when I've tipped the scales to not being present and not
being with people. I've been thinking about this this week because I'm having a week where I'm feeling it where I'm always with people and it's awesome, but I'm with people to be of service and I'm I'm very independent, so I'm often finding myself intermittently realizing that I'm not with people enough just to be present all the time.
And that's when the rumination and the doing, because in those moments you feel those that kind of gap, that a level of emptiness or a level of like, oh, but what you know, And that wouldn't be everybody, but I think it'd be It would relate to a lot of people because we live in a world now where we're also independent. We're also goal oriented, career oriented and focused and busy and living our own independent lives.
Yes, yes, yeah, And do you reckon that ties in? Sorry? Do you reckon that ties into our underlying belief I'm not saying you too necessarily, but generally speaking, our underlying belief in our culture typically is that success is about all things that everyone can see, you know, like what we have and earn and own and what we look like. And so we're so driven to have that job or be in that position, or you know, to be able
to go. What if that shit actually doesn't matter that much or maybe at all, you know, like being able to I mean, thinking about this a bit lately too, is like I sometimes feel this is gonna sound It's just the truth. I don't know. I'm not going to think about how it sounds. I feel disappointed that I feel like I've underachieved in my life. I hope people roll their eyes, but I really feel like in some ways I have underachieved and then I feel a bit sad or I feel a bit inferior or a bit whatever,
and then not a lot. I feel that just sometimes, but then other times, most times I feel somewhere between pretty good and overwhelmingly grateful for how good my life is and how easy it is, and how like I live in a great place with great people, and I don't have any real problems. You know. But it's funny. You can open a door a door or in your brin and just go down to doc Hall and you're like, fuck, I'm literally making myself said, sitting at my own disk.
Yeah. You know why that happens is because under stress, we do tend to go back to those core beliefs from way back then. So like, if you are feeling more overwhelmed or sad or stressed, that old belief of like, oh, this is what success is supposed to look like and
I haven't done that. Or you know a lot of people that I see, like you said, they have this narrow view of success, but also this belief that you have to be productive all the time, Like if you're not productive, you're wasting your time and it's bad and wrong, you know.
To just isn't it. It's like a sign of.
Week week as well. Yes, I hear that a lot. Yeah. And so it's these internal beliefs where they come from our significant others, caregivers, society, you know, our culture, you know, people caring them about, pushing them a lot.
I put up a post this morning which you may or may not have read, and it says I wrote this years ago and I wheel it out probably twice a year, and it says, stop looking for the right thing from the wrong person. So reckon. We do that a bit like we I don't know, and that I don't necessarily mean romantically, or it could be romantically. It could be a friend, that could be a colleague, it
could be something at work. But I feel like sometimes there's a person and we try and make that person fit the box that we want them to be in. I've done that a fair bit in lots of what And I'm like, but there's all this internal wisdom going, no, this isn't it's not necessarily that they're a bad person. But you're just like, no, this ain't going to work, this is not a good fit. This you know that person you know that makes.
Me think of like this happens a lot too, where you know people around you and you don't really agree with their beliefs and you don't really like how they've treated you. But if you ask, like, because so many people just judge themselves so harshly, I really think that's such a central thing and a lot of problems that
people have is just the self judgment. And if you ask them, like, where does this judgment come from, they'll often cite that those people, those people that they don't don't like or don't agree with, or have mistreated them. So their internal voice is actually coming from a person that they don't actually agree with or like respecting.
And also a person that they're aligned with.
Yes, that's right, so it's like that that's a really good and yeah, they haven't realized that that's what's happening. And then does it actually make sense? There's no, there's no congruence between that. So where that can be helpful?
I'm going to ask you a hard question and then, Lilyan, So the hard question is, and maybe this is not you too, but it's a lot of people, and it's I've definitely done this over my life. Why do we try to get approval from people who don't care about us, who love us or even what do you think that's about?
That seeking of approval? I don't mean attention, but like, and I've told you stories of when I've done a gig to two hundred people and there's one person that looks like they hate me, one hundred and ninety nine look like they like me. All I want to do is make the one that doesn't like me like me.
What do you think that's about, Tiff, Because I think that well, I think there's a part of us that recognizes that if someone doesn't like us, then they see the part of us that we actually know we don't like about us.
Oh wow, they can see the bad bit that the others can't, and you automatically think that their criticism of you or dislike of you is well founded.
Yeah, it's like, well that exists. If someone doesn't like me, there's a reason, And maybe there's a part of me that thinks it knows that reason because it's got beliefs about whatever.
And if they don't like me, it must be me.
Yeah.
And it's funny I think when you were talking before, like we live in this dopamine rich, serotonin poor life, but our conscious mind, our thinking, our logical self doesn't walk around going oh dope, mean don't mean dope, men. It just goes if feel good, do this, feel good? Behave like this, feel good? And then you wake up one day and there's no dopeman there and you're like, oh, don't feel good?
Why not?
Yeah?
Right right, yeah, Lilian? Why do we seek approval from people who actually don't like us or know us or care about us? Why does that matter to us? Like my mum will go, you're amazing. I'm like, no, I'm not. I don't even believe it.
My son says that to me other time as well.
The person I love the most can tell me the best thing. I'm like, you only say that because you're my mum. Be quiet, and then I'll go and pay attention to the vicious fuck with who attacks me online.
Yeah, there's this sense of like, I know that when I ask my son, like because I always tell him he's amazing, or my daughter, but my son doesn't believe. My daughter believes me maybe too much. My son doesn't. He's like, well, there's a sense of like we we are obligated to say that because we're their parents, so we have to say nice things about them. But really what's what's actually real is that you know we're in
the best position to say things about them. I think. Look, I mean, at our core, like you know, if we go like global about it, humans like are wired to connect and belong and you know, want close, supportive relationships, positive relationships with people. So it really doesn't feel good when somebody doesn't like you, or you're not included, or you know, like you get clues whether you know it's perceived or real or non verbal or verbal, that you're
not wanted. It doesn't feel good. I guess I mean that happens to me. There are people that I think, oh, I get a sense that they don't like me, and sometimes I'm like, sometimes I'm like, ah, I think I put my foot in my mouth, and I can kind of like, I feel like they're being a bit judgmental based on that one incident, but I could I get why they might be like less friendly. And other times I'm like, I don't care, Like I know, I'm a
good person, I have good values. My intentions are always I'm gonna say always mostly always good, unless I'm like mad at you, like because you're driving badly because that happens a lot. Like yeah, in interpersonal situations, I'm like, I'm always open and friendly and I like people. You know, you can tell when people like people, Like I'm somebody who likes people and like wants to know lots of people.
I'm interested in lots of people. So if somebody doesn't like me that, I'm like, it's a bit confusing, I think sometimes or like disconcerting, But I don't dwell on it because I feel okay as a person.
Yes, yeah, but.
It doesn't That doesn't mean it feels good. Okay, it doesn't feel good. I want everybody to like me, but you know, like I'm also realistic, like that's not going to happen. We don't tell it, and I don't like everybody's not Why is why does everyone have to like me? Like?
You know so well, we love having you on. It's always good to chat to you.
Hopefully you guys like me.
Question.
I know, Craig, you didn't let me.
I'm ah now money kidding. That was a great chat. That was doctor Lillian and I had a chat alien and she's gonna ask me, but we might come back and do that.
Yeah, we can do it next time. Yeah, it'll be fun.
Now, Tiff, I heard you've got a podcast. What is that called? And where do people find what are you done? Like seven episodes.
Now almost almost nine hundred? Yeah?
What have you done?
Thirty nine? More than thirty nine today? Wow?
I might have my first beer when you get to a thousand.
That's incredible amount.
Yeah. I might go and get I might go and get pissed. That might make the news the typ news anyway. Tell people what your show is, Tiff.
It's called Roll with the Punches. You can find it anywhere you're listening to this.
Roll with the Punches is the name of Tiff show. It's very good. Have a listen, literally, And what's the name of your podcast?
Well? I did a podcast a while ago called Life Skills for Leaders and it's about mental health at work. But it was just six episodes, like just a.
And so if can people find that on a podcast platform?
Oh?
Yeah, you can find it in like like where yours are as well, you know, Apple Music or a Spotify or wherever. Yeh it's on there.
Only had to do six to perfectly, I had to do six trying.
No, I would love to do more podcasting. I just need to I need to fit it in. I actually really love doing podcasts, which is why I like coming on your show so much.
Well, so yeah, when you're here, I always have Well, we're going to get you back, and you might. I told you to interview me, so we'll do that next Chief Doc. It's been nice. We'll say goodbye, Affair, but for the minute. Thank you both, see you soon.
Thank you.
Bye.