I get a champs. It's Harps, it's Kelly, it's Kelly Smith, it's Craig Harper, it's you project. It's a Sunday, it's one o five in the PM. I'd be doing it one o five in the am. That'd be that'd be unusual. It's a beautiful day in Melbourne. It's a beautiful day, Kelly, isn't it.
It's a stunning day. I've been down the beach already, had a bit of a wonder and it's just lovely. There's a really nice vibe outside.
How far do you live from the beach? Like to walk five minutes? Two hours?
Five minute walk to the beach, very lucky.
I'm the same. I'm probably about an eight minute walk. And it's just something therapeutic for a boy who grew up in the wilderness. I love. I love the ocean, and I love the forests and trees and farms and shit. And I don't know about where did you grow up?
So I was split between so broadmeadows, which is you know, there's not a beach inside, and then grandparents lived down the coast groad Ocean road, and so that has just given me this wonderful love of the beach. And then yeah, my dad lived over this side and I moved over here.
So when I was a kid, I detested the city because I never lived in the city at all, anywhere near the city till I was probably nineteen, because I moved from Latro Valley, which is you know, it's not bush, but it's a country. You know, there are towns there. I moved from there to a place called Bundary Bumbry, which is south of Perth on the Wa coast, and that was pretty small townsville. But then I started living
in Melbourne when I was about nineteen. But when I was a kid and I used to come up to the city from the bush, it used to stink to me, like I used to think the whole place smelt like the cars smelt, the city smelt every and I just thought it was disgusting and chaotic, and I couldn't It's funny now I live in the middle of suburbia, but I couldn't understand why people would choose to live in a city.
It's an interesting one. I quite like a lot of city scapes. I like cities at night. I like the buzz of an early morning in the city when everyone's getting their coffee and it's just waking up. But yeah, the city can be quite overwhelming. I was in there yesterday with my niece who's thirteen, and she said, I just don't like being around all these people, and I thought, yep, I totally get that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've had friends of mine that have stayed at my beach house, which is very very very very quiet, Like there's no it's like it's like the bush meets the coast and there's no street lights, there's no foot foot paths, there's no gutters. The road's pretty shitty, it's kind of bitumen, kind of dirt. It's
not amazing. But for me it's perfect because it's like it's the opposite of where I live, right, and it's just at night there's no noise, Like there's absolutely no noise, and especially if you go there through winter because there's very very few people live there. Like it's a small place. I won't say where it is, it doesn't matter, but it's not it's not one of those big fancy it's
not Portsy, let's say that, right, God bless Portsy. But yeah, but I've had a few friends go down there and they almost go nuts after two days because they just can't stand the silence and the solitude and the internet connection shit and the phone connection shit, and so they can't use their computer, they can't use their phone, and
they've almost got to come back. Some I mean, some people just love it, right, but some people were so programmed to noise and busyness and mayhem and distraction, and yeah, to have real solitude, I think for some people is a bit of a challenge.
I think so, I think it can be quite scary and very unknown. But that very much leads into the question that I had for you today. I'm quite interested at the moment. I listened to a podcast a few weeks ago where they were talking about kind of slowing down to speed up your thought processes, your productivity, your creativity, and it got me thinking how when I was younger, for instance, I would I would always be creating something, I'd be drawing, i'd be writing, and quite often i'd
be daydreaming. So just all of these thoughts going around my head. And even now I think people might go, oh, I had a thought in the shower that I want to share. You know, I've had this thought where my mind was just allowed to run free. And it's like, well, with everything that we're feeding our brains at the moment, you know, we're all we're online in some way. It's very hard to switch off because it's giving you that hit every time you get a like or a comment
or there's something new. What's what's in it when you just kind of switch off, Like if you go to a place where there's no internet connection, there's no phone, it's just radio silence. What's the benefit and how important is it? And really how much should we do it? Do you think?
Yeah, when as you were asking this, by the way, everyone we don't we don't set up these questions, so I don't know what questions are coming. Kelly's going to ask me a bunch of stuff today, so I don't get sent through a list of questions. So this is all very freestyle and organic. But as you were asking that, I was thinking the inference is almost like not from you, but in general, like it depends on the context. But how are you busy? Like we wear the busy badge,
Oh mate, so busy, so busy. And then when when I think about a busy mind, I think you can have busy good and busy bad. You know, to me, busy bad is overthinking, Busy bad is anxiety, Busy bad is ruminating. Busy bad bad is fear based. It's unproductive,
it's destructive, it's distracting. And then busy productive could be I'm in flow, I'm in flow, I'm in a flow state, I'm writing this song, I'm writing this story, and I just you know, you've sat down where like you're you're a writer, you sit down and sometimes you write when you're in flow. When you're in that space, your mind's busy,
but in a healthy way. It's creating, it's producing, it's inventing, you know, and the stuff comes out of you in an hour that would take somebody else twenty four hours or forty eight hours, or that'd never be able to do it. And so for me, there are times when I'm in a busy good place or a busy bad place, productive or unproductive, creative or destructive, anxious or calm. Like I can be busy in my mind but still quite calm.
So I think it depends on the output of the busyness, which sounds weird, but then it's almost like, you know, people say things a lot like, oh, you know, when I have the best ideas and they go when I'm in the shower and I go, or they go, I have the best ideas when I'm running, I go, Guess what you're not doing. When you're running, You're not fucking staring at your phone and scrolling on social media. You're not distracted. Guess what you're doing when you're in the shower.
You're not looking at your phone. You're not You've just got space and you've just got time. So I would think there's an obvious correlation between getting away from distractions, and I think that and this is I'm actually saying this to myself as much as any listener, because I can absolutely fall down the old rabbit hole and look up an hour later and I've just been looking at bullshit which has had my total attention for zero gain other than maybe a little bit of enjoyment, maybe depending
on what I'm looking at. And I think there's probably a time where you can do that, But I think you need to do that consciously rather than unconsciously, and intentionally rather than unintentionally, so that you say, well, I'm going to get you know, lots like I get to the cafe at ten past six, and I often what say to myself, all right, I'm going to fuck around till six thirty, So six point thirty is my fuck around time. Twenty minutes. Look at bullshit, look at videos,
good dumb shit. Let's see what bloody you know Snoop Dog's up to. Let's see what he is up to. Let's see let's see, you know, a motorbike with a thousand horsepower. Let's fucking look at that. Let's look at some blokes fighting in a car park. Let's do that and then and then maybe try and do something productive. But I am getting better and better at that where I'm aware of what we're talking about. So but I think consciously having time to disconnect from you know, I mean,
then this is no revelation. I feel like this has been said a thousand times, but intentionally and practically and consciously doing it. We say I'm not going to look at my phone before this time, or I'm going to get up and I'm going to, like I do you know, I'm going to use my phone. But then between seven and nine pm, I'm not going to touch social media.
Look at social seven am and nine am. I should say, so two hours where I'm play the day, I'm doing work, I'm responding to emails, or I'm walking at the beach and I'm looking at the ocean, or I'm ringing my mum, or I'm cleaning the house or whatever it is. But just where you recognizing the things that for you can over time become anchors to your progress, and then dealing with that.
Yeah, that's a good point and a nice way to frame it, isn't it. The anchors to your progress. I'm also thinking that you have a very different algorithm to me. I never get blokes fighting in car parks.
I get heaps of that stuff. I get heaps of that. I get all kinds of I get lots of bodybuilding and weightlifting stuff and blokes fighting and car parks and motorbikes. And then of course I get every fucking pseudo scientist in the world and their theory on everything. It's a very eclectic. Somebody said to me the other day day, Ah, who just put out a new album? Is it Taylor Swift?
Is it's coming up? I think, yeah, right, Oh my god, has your social media been inundated with Taylor Swift new album? I go I didn't know she had a new album. So I'm going to go hard no. And they're like, what do you mean? And I said, I have no knowledge of what you're talking about there, like but it's all over the place. It's just the only thing on my phone. And I went, well, that's a reflection of what you look at, and what do I look at?
Because yeah, you just told me about this thing, which is fine, but it's yeah, I think, And that's the you know, that's the the intention behind social media platforms is they want to engage you. They want to addict you, they want to get you plugged in that I want you to unplug of course, because the more time you spend on their platform, the more commercially viable that is for them. And so why would they want you to go away? So of course, you know, and this is
and this is no revelation. They know what you like to look at, so they give you what you like to look at, and they know you vote this way, so they give you stuff that reverberates beautifully in your echo chamber and you know, strokes your cognitive bias, you know, and so you go, oh, yeah, look we are all right, Yeah, go us. You know, it's it's super smart. It's super fucking potentially destructive, but it's very smart. I mean they're
trying to sell something. Everyone's trying to sell something.
It's super smart and borderline, well not even borderline, but super scary. So I was talking to some friends about this last night and I said, I was at the hairdressers and you know, flicking through TikTok and I started at one point which was just you know, where can I go for a walk in a certain location. And then suddenly, within you know, half an hour, it had led me down this rabbit hole based on what had my attention for you know, more than thirty seconds or
a minute. And I was all the way down this other pathway of something that I did find it quite interesting, but I certainly didn't search for it. And I was like, oh my god, this has figured out what I like within thirty minutes and incredibly smart. Absolutely, but you know, John Connor and the terminators are going to be coming quite soon. I'm pretty sure of that. It's it's a bit scary, yeah.
Very I was at the gym. I stayed with the Crab, my training partner, and Johnny, the much loved Johnny who you know, both of them, and we're having a conversation about nicotine. So nicotine patches that some people use, Now there's not a suggestion or a recommendation anyone, and Nicorette or similar gum and knowing that or on the assumption that nicotine can be a cognitive enhancer anyway, we're talking
about you know that people start stuff that. The conversation was that, yeah, well I get it, but they're also you know, it's a sympathetic nervous system stimulant, and it might do something for a little while, but you keep doing it, then it doesn't do anything. Then you've got to take four miligrams, not two. Then you've got to
take eight, not four. Then and so on and so and then eventually you're taking a fucking million miligrams to get the same response as you did originally with two milligrams, because you've shut down your receptors and fucking you fuck fuck right, all this shit that no one's interested in accept me in these two dummies anyway. So I go, let's ask chat Chipette about like, what's the how quickly
does this do ourselves? Kind of our receptors, I should say, get desensitized and how before it starts to downregulate and we don't get the same response, And so I open up chat GPT and press the talk like I talked to it a lot, and it goes, hey, Craig, sounds like you guys are talking about nicotine. Yeah, what would you like to know? I'm like, oh my god, just sitting in the gym, it knew what we were talking about before I asked it a question. I'm like, that
shit is listening to me. That shit is and that's anyway, all right, let's it's it's scary, but it's it's where we're going. And I think this is my last bit before you asked me another question. I think people are quite rightly, ah, curious and a bit fearful and a bit kind of hesitant. I understand all of that. I think we need to think about if we are going to use AI, and we all are, even if we don't want to. It's like everyone who goes fuck it,
I'm never using it. I don't think you understand what's coming. It's going to be pretty much impossible to do life without using some kind of AI in some capacity unless you live on an island by yourself. But I think it's trying to figure out how do I use this thing? How do I use this thing in a way where it's not controlling me, I'm controlling it. It's a helpful and practical resource, you know. I think, like a lot of things in life, how we use it is the issue,
not what we use. You know. It's like, nothing wrong with booze. I don't drink booze, but there's nothing wrong with booze if you have a little bit now and then. For most people anyway, unless you're an alcoholic, then it's probably you know, wise to not drink at all for obvious reasons. But for most people, bit of booze fine. For most people. Bit of junk food fine, junk food all the time, not fine. Booze all the time not fine.
Being totally obsessed with and distracted by food or booze or gambling or even money, right, it just tends to be destructive down the track. So I think it depends on this as a weird term, but it's about the kind of relationship we have with whatever the thing is, you know. So it's a resource to kind of manipulate and optimize in terms of what's going to work best
for you. But it is that And David Gillespie has spoken many times about this the problem or the challenge with these things where we we press the button and we get this dopamine response, like, ah, I eat food, I feel fucking great. I drink a bit of booze. I have a cigarette, I get twenty seven extra likes on the post that I put up. I get a
dopamine response. And dopamine is a very addictive chemical, you know, and so we get addicted to the dopamine that's produced by the thing that we use or do, and that is when it starts to get like real chemically addictive where we need to go hang on, I need to
I almost need to do a detox. And it's like there's I've seen I was going to say countless, not countless, but probably ten to fifteen videos where parents are taking away their screens from their kid because their kids be coming out of control, whether or not it's a phone or an iPad or similar or whatever, and they're just going, Okay, you can't have it for twelve hours and the absolute tantrums and craziness, and it's just analogous to a drug
addict who can't get access to drugs, like they totally lose their shit, and you go, wow, we need to think about what this is and we need to get ahead of it because it can only control us if we let it control us. So there's that You're still the boss of you. You still make the decisions, you still choose what you do and don't do. But eventually it does it or it can get to a point where that control tends to slip if we're not really aware and really diligent.
Yeah, it almost seems too that it's a certain amount of laziness that's slipping in with this as well, and that you can just ask something like chat GPT or whatever version it is that you use, what's the answer to this instead of you know, having that thought process for yourself or even having that conversation with someone else.
And so it makes me think, well, is this actually an opportunity to be pushing out more creative projects, more kind of more ideas because so many people are now relying on the AI and they're just leaning into that and they might change something here and there and make it their own. Sure, if that's how they want to work, you know, go for it. But for those of us who do chase that bit of creativity is it almost feels like an opportunity to be putting new things out there.
And from what I was listening to the other day, apparently patents, so the amount of patents that are being filed at the moment, then the numbers are down and the quality of the ideas are not as good as they have been like previous years, because so many people are reliant on AI for all of their new thoughts,
their new ideas, their answers. So it almost seems to be a kind of a flip side of yeah, you can lean into that and yeah, you'll get a quick answer and you might get something, you know, quite decent out of it. But will that ever compete with you know, Look, you go into an art gallery, for instance, and you've got all of this beautiful historical art from across the centuries. What will we have from now, you know, into the future. Will it all be digital? Will it all be AI generated?
Where's that? Yeah? I think it's it's presenting an opportunity for people to be genuinely creative and productive rather than just leaning into the easy version.
Yeah, I agree, I agree, and it's almost like outsourcing your thinking. Yes, you know, I don't need to think. I don't need to solve this problem. But I'll give you an example of how I think is a smart way to use AI. So I went for walk this morning, and I go early, as you know, and it's very quiet, so I can walk around suburbia and with my headphones on and have a very clear conversation with anyone because there's no traffic. So I how to chat with AI.
And I do this quite regularly where it's actually really good, where I'll say and I won't say what it is because it's a work in progress. And I said, look, I've got an idea, like I. I just talked to it first ages I go hey, and it goes, hey, Craig, what's up? I go, I want to ask you some stuff? Sure, shoot right. It loooks like that. Sometimes it calls me Harps,
which is hilarious. And I said, so, I've got an idea which is kind of the intersection of a commercial opportunity and an opportunity to help people to do some good, to do some development, for me to input into the lives of others, lives of others, and maybe also create something that makes few bucks. So I want to run this by you. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, great, I'm keen to hear. So I tell it the idea. What are the pros and cons of this idea? Don't tell
me what I want to hear. Don't try and make me feel good. If you think this is crap, say I think it's crap. Now, obviously it's thinking, but not in a way that we think, not in a way that we really under So I guess we could say tech technically it doesn't think, but it is a kind of intelligence that is super high level. It's not human intelligence, but it's a it has got access to you know, everything. So then it goes basically, all right, let's start with
the pros. Let's start with what I like about it, and then i'll get halfway through, I'll go hang on, hang on, stop and I'll go sure, and then I'll go unpack that a bit more. You know. So we just spent me and it like we like now we're friends, right, But I'm asking it good questions. But it's all based around my ideas. It's all based around my thinking. It's like, sure, I want to do be create, change this and I can use this tool to help me do the thing
that I thought of that I'm creating. It's not knocking on my door saying this is what I think you should do today. And then we went through, you know,
some of the practical challenges. Then it went through some of the potential what I would call side effects, you know, when you're going to take a drug or a supplement, you know, whether potential risks or downsides, And then through to what would be like a good place to start, like, is there any way that I can open the door on this cread some momentum without without over committing or risking too much. And it's like great question, and then
it stuck right. I don't know how long I spoke, but probably quarter of an hour, and it was it was like having a really productive, interesting conversation with the smartest person I know. Now for me, that's a way to use AI. So I came home. I read. Also when we're talking, it's writing, so I can go back and look at what it's what the text as well, and then I can say, based on our conversation this morning at six point fifteen, I want you to create
a plan. I want you to create a three month plan, timeline, structure, process or to do list yep, and it cranks it out in thirty seconds.
Yeah.
So for me, that's an opportune kind of use of it.
Yeah, totally. What interests me about that? And you know, I'd use it for very similar things. At the moment, I'm using it for my training plans. You know, I plug in, you know what I've been doing, how I've been doing it, and then I say, can you tweak this so that I can progress? And it does, and
it's great. How much of it? Considering it's it's your thought process, it's your input into this very high level intelligence, And this could be a very moral question, how much of it are you comfortable in claiming as your own? Out of that?
I mean, that's a good question, and I don't really I mean, put it this way. I would never do that with something i'm writing, like my PhD on whatever there's I'll explain to you how I use it in my PhD in a moment. But the originating ideas and thoughts are mine, Yeah, and the concept is mine. I'm using something to work through, just like I would say to you, Kelly, I've got an idea of something. Can we meet at twelve o'clock. I want to bounce some stuff off you to one o'clock and we would do
that and I would come out with more clarity. But I'm not saying it's Kelly's project. I'm saying, you know she was, She's supported, just like I would do that for you. Yeah, right, but but no, there's I understand
where you're going. But I think more and more we're going to realize just like using a computer or using Google, or using a phone, or using a you know, a spray painter, if you're a painter, is you know, these are all resources that make our job or our work more efficient or more effective, you know, or quicker and
sometimes better quality. So if though I've got to do a paper for year ten whatever, and I type in the topic and then chat GPT spits out the paper, then I put my name at the top, well you
know that's no good. Yeah, And that's they're really struggling at the moment in academia with trying to figure out how the fuck to use because to tell kids not to use it good luck, it's like saying don't breathe, you want you not to breathe over the weekend because it is so sophisticated and there are so many different kinds of AI available that they just need to rather than say don't use it, they need to figure out how it can be integrated, because done the right way,
it just you know, there are some things that as a student, or as an academic or as somebody who's like a lifelong learner, doesn't have to be an academic kind of environment. There are really intelligent ways to use this stuff where you're not really cheating, You're just you're just you like, could you organize all of my references? Yeah? Sure, Well it just does it. It just does it in
this format, you know. And some might go, no, you should do it that way, you should sit there for two hours, and it's like, yeah, but I'm not, you know, it's like this is not the best use of my skill or time. You know. So that's that's happening a lot. But yeah, I think it's it's going to be a constant work in progress figuring it out.
That just reminded me how much I used to really hate doing references on my essays.
Oh oh, take that by a million. But yeah, So the last one I'll say is so about you know, how I use AI is for my PhD, and everyone does, by the way, pretty much like, firstly, all of my research is original research. So I've done it. I've got the ethical approval, I've got the venue, I've got the people,
I've run the studies, I've analyzed the data. I've written, so all of this is organic, and all of this is from my brain, with support, of course, from my crew, you know, my senior supervisor, my second supervisor, and with reviews to the panel where you go and stand in
front of the board. Not so this is this ongoing, but there are things where you could put I can write a paragraph and I can put that paragraph into probably Claude, which is a more academic AI, and say, don't change this in any way, but could you make it read more smoothly or could you? And sometimes it'll send back something and I go, not, mine's better, do you know what I mean? But it's not rewriting my paper, you know. So yeah, it's not making any decisions, it's
not changing anything. It's not you know, I'm not going, oh, I want you to write a thousand words on this, and then I just cut and paste it into my thesis. Like that's not happening, but that is a risk that universities need to navigate moving forwards. Is how they're going to, you know, stop people from doing a four or five year PhD in six months.
Yeah, absolutely scary. I mean even now, I just think I'm very relieved that I didn't have a mobile phone when I was in high school because of access to socials and the pressure that would have existed and obviously does exist for kids. Now, I feel very relieved that I skip that. So to think that in this current situation where there's so much access and what it can lead to, what it can potentially change, and I guess influence, And that's the big thing around all of it, right,
is the influences. It's quite scary, and I am very grateful that I didn't grow up with it because I don't think I would have that passion to be creative that I do have if I was reliant on a machine.
Yes, yes, well, I think I think less is more in that sense. I think you know that when you don't have all that external input and you do need to solve problems and you do need like when you think problem solving is actually a creative process, Yep, it's a it's an intellectual process, but it's also a creative process.
It's probably one of the few places where intellect and creativity really kind of converge because you're trying to figure out how to do something, and that is of course, that's about the logical rational prefrontal cortex part of the brain that's you know, very solution focused. But then you're trying to actually think outside the box to fix this problem, which is also a creative thing. So yeah, I think that that, you know, we need to recognize where it
needs to stop and start. And I was, oh, no, I won't go into that. I was going to open another door and talk for another five minutes. All right, ask me a question or two. What have you got on your list?
What have I got on my list? So I was having a look at some of the whiteboards that you put up and look, my personal favorite, and I actually swiped it from you, like literally, you gave it to me on a piece of paper is if your action can't outlast your motivation, your goal will never be your reality. And this, I think is such a good reminder that you need to keep working. And it's also something that
based on what we've just been discussing. I don't think that AI or socials or you know, the Internet in any capacity can give you any form of motivation. Like you might see, you might see something that you relate to, But I kind of feel like this comes down to what you've got within yourself.
Yeah. Yeah, actually spoke about this in a little bit of detail on today's episode. But let's revisit it because it's always relevant, right, and so just say it once more. I think I remember it, but just say it once more.
If your action can't outlast your motivation, your goal will never be your reality.
Yeah, so we know that that, you know, the choice as we make and the things that we do create outcomes. So action equals an outcome could be a good outcome. If you do something dumb, you'll create a shit outcome. If you do something smart, you might create a good outcome. So it's not like, oh, taking action automatically equals winning. No, not at all, because we're always taking actions. It's about
the quality of the actions. But there's also there's been you know, a really up until recently and probably still you know, there's a big kind of collective thought bubble that motivation is key, which is why we have motivational books and motivational seminars and motivational speakers and motivational gurus.
And it's like, yeah, here's the problem though, if we're talking about motivation in the sense that most people understand it, which is that feeling, which is that state, which is that excitement, that energy, that focus, you know, that inspiration that well, that doesn't last, you know it, It doesn't for most people. It's not a twenty four hour days, three hundred and sixty five days of the year thing.
In fact, not for anyone I've ever met. And I think the human condition is that typically if we're talking about motivation as that as that kind of emotion and psychological state that comes and goes because we're human, not bad or flawed or broken. But if we are dependent on that, if that's the fuel that keeps our fire burning, and the fire goes out when we don't have motivation, then the fire is going to go out all the time. And of course, I mean our action is going to stop.
And if our action stops, so the challenge is not to stay motivated. The challenge is to optimize the motivation when it's there. That's number one. So when I'm motivated, when i'm inspired, you fuck jump on that like milk it, you know, ride that, ride that emotional wave all the way to the fucking beach. At milk it, you're in
the zone, be productive, go nuts, do your best. And then the day that you get up where you can't be fucked and you don't feel it and you're not inspired and you're not motivated, like really, as a coach, that's what I'm I'm most interested in that day. I'm not interested in the day before, because the day before, anyone who's inspired is going to be a winner for a day. You know, they're going to do all the shit.
They're going to go for the run, they're going to eat clean, they're going to read the book, they're going to write the things, they're going to do the things because they're fucking pumped and I'm in the zone. Cool. What about Wednesday when you feel like dog shit and your back hurtz and someone called you a dickhead and you're a little bit sady macsadstera and all those things
are okay? But you know, so number two, number one is you know, when you're motivated, milk at number two is how productive and effective and proactive can you be when you're not motivated? In other words, what can you do when you don't feel like it when most people would give up? Can you step up? Can you can you override the lack of whatever it is that we
tend to depend on. And I think we need to anticipate the fact that the human experience is one of psychological, emotional, behavioral, practical, physical peaks and troughs. And what we want to do, which is hard, but is in the middle of those invariable peaks and troughs, to try to find some level of consistency, knowing that will be more and less productive
on different days. But what we don't want to do is we don't want to stick our head up, stick our head up two months later and go, oh shit, I haven't done anything for two months because you know, it's winter and I hate winter, and I don't you know whatever it is right, And so that is the that is the challenge. And even when you know, when I do a gig, I'll often say, at the end
of the speaking gig, who enjoyed that? Most people put up their hand thankfully, and I go, put up your hand if you're a little bit more motivated or inspired than you were an hour ago or three hours ago, whatever it was. And generally, maybe just because they're being nice, but generally, all the hands go up and I go, that's great. Here's what I'm going to tell you. That feeling that you've got now, that's going to go. That's
going to pass. So I can almost guarantee you this time tomorrow you will not feel what you're currently feeling. You'll probably not feel the same level of focus and clarity and excitement and inspiration and motivation. Because you're human. So what matters is not what we just listen to for an hour or two. But what matters is what happens next with you and your choices and behaviors and your ability to keep doing the things that most people
fucking stop doing. Right now, that's the human challenge I can and I'll by the way, there's no ego in this, because I'm as big a fuck up as anyone. Right. I can't tell you how much I don't enjoy most of what I do for my PhD. Now, I'm not complaining, and I'm not saying, oh poor me, I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying, oh god, the hardship. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that virtually everyone who does a PhD, especially when it's research based, it's science,
it's kind of it's reasonably hard. No one's virtually no one's saying to you, oh, I really enjoyed it, because it fucking sucks. So it's like, how much suck can you take? How much hardship can you do to achieve the thing that you want to achieve? You know, and some people won't and that's okay, and some people will and well done them. And you know, hopefully I get there. That's my goal. But that doesn't make me better than anyone. It just means I didn't stop. You know, are there
are a lot way more smart people than me. You know, they are so many people that I talk to that I actually I'll sit with people and think you in some ways, you're definitely more gifted, better genetics, you know, more sporting, more creative. Well there's more intellect, perhaps you know, higher IQ. But you keep fucking giving up, like you keep stopping, like that's your your issue is not that you're not talented. It's not that you're not brilliant. It's
not that you don't have a good brain. It's not that you can't do it. It's that you are so fucking addicted to comfort and convenience and certainty that you keep fucking stopping because you don't like any kind of pain. That's the problem, you know. And so this, all of this goes into and I'll shut up after. This is the ultimate with this is can I turn these sometimes when I'm motivated behaviors into all the time when I'm not motivated, habits that just become my operational default setting.
This is what I do. This is not what I do when I'm pumped or excited or motivated. This is what I do. So and there's no get out of jail card, there's you know. It's like I don't drink beer. I don't drink booze. And none of these are about look at follow me. This is just me giving examples. So when someone says, do you want some booze? I got no? Thank you? And why I don't drink oh okay, and do you want a bit of cake? Thank you?
But no, I'm not saying people shouldn't drink booze or eat cake, but for me the X fat kid with for decades are fucking eating disorder, right, me eating cake, me eating shit, me making bad choices doesn't work for me. I'm not suggesting anyone be a version of me or do what I do. But when you one hundred percent go, I don't do that anymore, Like not, I'm going to try. I'll see how I go. I'll roll the dice or I fell off the fucking wagon that doesn't exist, right,
all bullshit? Then you go cool, like if you want to be a fucking weapon, then do hard things and don't give yourself an opportunity to do the things that don't work for you. But what I just said, people go, oh, you're You're fucking so harsh. At course it's easy to call me harsh because that gives people a reason to not do it. Or maybe I'm just honest, and maybe what I'm suggesting all be it uncomfortable might be for some people the best way to go.
Yes, absolutely what you just said. Then about it's very comfortable and that's what keeps people there. Like they might be gifted, they might have the capability of being incredibly great, but their comfort zone contains them. That is so true. I've been in that many many times, and it's interesting. The other day I got called boring because I didn't want to eat a certain food, and I thought, well, you go for it, do what you want. I personally I'm living, eating and doing things a certain way at
the moment. It doesn't include that. No shade on you. But if that makes me boring, then I'll be boring, so be it. But yeah, and how much do you think along with this that because the motivation goes obviously routine. So once you've decided this is what I'm going to do, Like, for instance, yours at the moment is around getting over the ten thousand steps every day, this has just become something that you do almost without thinking. I get up quite early every morning, go to the gym before work.
I know that it makes me feel better. My brain's in a better place when I get into the office. It's just what I do. How much does having that solid routine keep not so much keep the motivation, but it keeps that fire going.
Yeah, well for me, it's like when when that kind of switch flicks like for real, not like temporarily, not like I'm in the zone right, but then the beauty of being fully committed to something is you don't have to think about will I do it or when I do it, because you're doing it, Like that's just how I think I go with, Like not doing it isn't an option. If, for example, I was badly you know, injured, or I was sick, or I couldn't do it physically,
then that's different. But if I can do it, I'm doing it right, so I never have to think, oh, will I won't tie, So there's never an internal struggle. The only thing for me is when will I do it? Like what's my day look like? You know, so I've done I could look right now, but I think i've So it's one fifty I've done about nine thousand steps,
and that's because I've got this with you. And then I've got to write a paper all afternoon, I've got to work, and I don't want to be trying to get in another eight thousand steps at seven o'clock at night. But I'll still go, I'm going to go for another walk and I'll probably end up doing twelve to fifteen today something in that range. And that's fine. But you know, it's like, this is a really silly analogy but I
thought about this a while ago. I've shared it once before, and I think I think about how amazing mums are, right, dad's too, but mums, Yeah, let's be honest better. So let's be honest with some things, definitely with a lot of things. And I think, you know, how do I say this? Right? I this, I'm going to throw myself under the bus and make myself look like a bad person. But understandably, I'm not a dad, I'm not a granddad. I've never changed a nappy in my life, right, I
can't say it's something that I miss. I don't know, I've never had it. So but I don't lie awake at night going, oh, I wish I could clean up all of that shit, you know, I don't think. But I look at how mums just do that, right because they love their kid and they don't you know, all the all of the things. Now, I can imagine that's not a particularly glamorous or highly desirable task, but we go, well, I love this kid, this is my kid. This is
just a thing that I do. It's not I don't go ah, fuck, I don't know, ah, you know, do I have to? You know, it's like there are things that humans do just with not even thinking about it. Unpleasant things, things that aren't convenient or nice or fun or smell good. Right, But there's nothing in a mum going ah, fuck it, look after yourself. I'm not doing that, or I'll do it, or I'll do it tomorrow, or i'll you know, And I just think when we have that,
like if we can transfer that kind of thinking. The problem is with a lot of things that we perhaps I say, perhaps should do as individuals. And when I say should, I mean things that align with our values, things that we say are supportive of our values or our goals or our plans or our faith or whatever it is. When we make those behaviors non negotiable, like this is what I do. Then I don't need to get inspired or motivated or pumped or focused or disciplined,
because this is just me on autopilot. This is what I do, like me going to the gym, me not drinking booze, me not eating cake, me walking every day, my you know, me doing the things that the that have over time, by the way, by the way, at one stage it did take willpower, disciplines, self control, because we don't just go from one to the other end
of day. But over time, with courage and a bit of discipline and a bit of structure and a bit of accountability and a bit of process and a bit of fucking support and all of those things, we turn them into non negotiables. We turn them into something that's hardwided into our hard wide, into our normal operating system. And so now the things that I used to find hard are not hard at all. Requires zero discipline, self control, or mental toughness, no resilience, just oh, I just do this.
But when your story is ah, this is hard, I'm doing a hard thing, it's not fair.
I'm doing hard. They're not doing the hard thing I'm doing. Look at me, everyone, I'm doing a hard thing. Oh and then I'm posting about everything on fucking Instagram, so everyone will tell me how amazing I am and fuck all that, Like, really, that is you being weak and looking for attention.
Now, I'm all for support, yeap, come going hard in the paint today. But you know what I'm going to say. Support is good, But when you are somewhat dependent, and you're a fucking grown man or woman, and you are dependent on telling people you're amazing because you didn't eat shit. That's a fucking problem. Like what, you don't need more accolades, you need more resilience. Don't seek more attention for your fucking healthy breakfast. Do a deep dive on why you
think like that. That's the problem. The problem is you're thinking about that shit now again, self awareness, not self loathing. I still do stuff which is embarrassing, but I own up. You know where I'm looking for someone, Craig Harper, and I'm still wanting someone's approval. I still want someone to tell me I look good. I still want someone to go, fuck, how big is that motorbike? I still want someone to go, oh, you're almost doctor Harper? Of course, but you know, and
none of those things are terrible. But you just need to be careful of what your motives are and what your reasons are for doing certain things.
Yes, and whether or not No, that was good. I applaud that. I think the light and the dark that came through then was probably what a lot of people need to hear. And people that listen to this probably need to hear that, right because they're listening for a reason, and I'm asking those questions for a reason. I love hearing that, it's a solid reminder, and it is that reminder of it's a nice to have versus a reliance on it, like when you become reliant on somebody going
you're so good for doing that, I'm so impressed. I wish I could blah blah blah. But we all have that kind of Oh that was nice to hear that. Yeah, that's you know, it might give me a little bit of a pep in my step. But relying on that, I feel, is incredibly dangerous because the next comment you might get is, who the hell do you think you think you're good for doing that? Do you come on? Pull your head out. So there's that, as I just said, like the light and the dark around all of it.
One hundred And also think about this, cal what if what if you people are constantly telling you're amazing and terrific and wow, well done you for doing stuff that's, let's be honest, is not that spectacular? You know, Like you've met Johnny in the gym. I talk too much about him, but he is spectacular. Absolutely, every day of his life is harder than my hardest day I've ever had. Right now, He's a fucking hero, right But here's the problem is when you become dependent on accolades and you know,
thumbs up and you're amazing. When it goes, you're fucked because you have a new addiction. And the addiction is I need attention, I need approval. I need accolades. When I do something good, I need at least thirteen people to tell me how good I am, because otherwise I crack the fucking sads. And by the way, I'm forty six, Like, at some stage we've got to go. I'm the problem. My thinking is the problem. Now. I know that this is some people have probably already turned off, and some
people might unsubscribe. That's cool, knock your socks off. But I this is what I think. I truly love people, and I don't think love is telling someone something that they want to hear to make them feel good for three minutes. I think that's weakness. I think, by the way, if I think somebody genuinely deserves something, I'm in I'm like, that's fucking amazing. If I think they've done a good job, I'm the first to go. I think you've done a
good job, well done, congratulations. But somebody doing something that isn't amazing, and then we all gather around and go, you're amazing. Right. I know that feels good in the moment, but it's not helpful over the long term. I always say to you, say to my clients. I still say to the people I work with, I'm not interested in making you feel good for three to ten minutes. I'm interested in the quality of your life, your experiences, and your results over the next one, two, five, ten years.
Like I'm a coach, I'm not a fucking cheer squad. I want to help you be the most powerful resource in your own life, Craig Harper, is not the answer. Me telling you you're amazing is not the answer. You starting to fucking have this revelation about your own capacity and ability and talent and potential. That is power. That is what you need. You don't need me rubbing you on the back all the time. If you do great, I'll say, you do great. If I think you've been
a dickhead, I'll go, you're being a dickhead. Love you, but you're being a dickhead. Am I ever a dickhead all the time? Do I make dumb decisions? Yes? Am I a big fucking baby? Yes? Like we have to acknowledge this. Otherwise we just go through life like it's a fucking Disney movie. And whenever we get any feed I mean actual feedback, you know. And that's another thing. People go, I want feedback, and then you give them feedback. They don't like it because they don't actually want feedback.
They want praise. Oh you don't want feedback. No, I just want you to tell me I'm fucking awesome. Well that's not feedback.
Yep. The other day my wife said something to me and I said, I don't want to hear that because I think I'm perfect, and she said, I know you do, and that's exactly why I'm telling you. And it led to you know, it was a good, open, frank conversation of something that I needed to do in order to improve. And you're right that, but that is absolute love because
it wasn't coming from any bad place. It was coming from a place of I know that you want to hear this, because I know that she knows that I do do a lot of work on myself, and so she was able to give that genuine feedback and it was appreciated and I've thought about it, learnt from it and that's what I'll you know, I can take that moving forward. So absolute love right there.
Yeah, amazing, and good on you for understanding that, and you know, not sticking your bottom lip out and throwing your glomsh in the shagpile as Mary says, right, oh I did. Yeah, well you probably got over it. But I mean, like, even with you, I'm going to make you. I might, I might not maybe make you feel uncomfortable
for a little bit. But I think about the girl that I met, the lad, the woman that I met, I should say, at the gym, you, I don't know how many years ago, who pretty much looked at her feet and wouldn't look me in the eye and would be you know, maybe a hello, a goodbye, even though this was the woman that listened to my fucking show right and knew who I was, and I would, I suppose, in a way respected me for what I did, right, but just very you know, shy and all of that,
which is cool. But what I've seen over the last few years with you is this, for somebody who is you would call yourself an introvert, I guess yep, yep, So somebody who's an introvert, all this this stuff doesn't come naturally or easily. Even though I actually think you are have a gift for communication. That's a side issue
or a side fact. But like, I know that doing something like this probably gives you equal parts excitement and terror, you know, where you know, you're like, oh, I'm doing a podcast with It's fucking hell, I'm doing a podcast with Harps right, And but here's the thing. You even the messages that you sent to me, where they used to be very short and let's be honest, boring, Ah,
not really, but now they're like a bit cheeky. Now they're a little bit like, hey, what are you doing your big No, they're not really, but they're you know, they're getting there. It's like it's it's a bit fun, it's a bit and I'm like, wow, look at this, because I know this is you developing, and and you know it's you always have the ability, and you're still very much a work in progress, as is everyone including me.
But your development for communication, you know, to build connection and rapport and to do shit that scares you and to put yourself in situations that are not super comfortable for you. And and then in the middle of all of these things that you are doing, you are simultaneously impacting the world around you in a positive way and also changing yourself, Like this is personal development is really about changing you. It's about how do I, how do I become a better version of me? And what does that
look like? And so for me to talk to you on a you know, like this on a Sunday afternoon, I wouldn't have picked it in a million years, five years ago, or whenever it was I met you, and neither would you.
No, not at all, not at all. And it's it's wonderful, it really is, like it's it's giving me so much. And so probably the last question I had for you, it was your whiteboard post about the hill and how the hill doesn't change, it's just you and you know, the more you tackle it, the easier it becomes. So my ending question for you is, aside from your PhD, because we know that that has been your focus and it's you're almost at the peak, what's your next hill?
And it got me thinking about, well, currently what is mine? And mine is public speaking, and so what I'm doing now is that every opportunity I get, I'm just saying yes without thinking yes, I'll do it.
Yes.
And I had to present to the leadership team at work the other week and it was a wonderful opportunity and I was just sweating. I sat there and presenting this thing that I like, I knew the content because I'd written it, but I'm talking and suddenly my voice is cracking and I'm like lah, And I just thought, has someone tipped a bucket of water down my back? Because I could just feel all of this sweat coming And it reminded me of the last conversation we had where you said that you presented in.
The light blues.
Yeah, it was like that. And I left the presentation and I mentioned to my manager and she goes, presented really well, came across really confidently. I said, I was sweating so much, like I felt so uncomfortable, and she just said, well, you wore the wrong clothes on the wrong day. Is it as simple as that I wore the wrong clothes on the wrong day. But yeah, that's my hill at the moment is in person presentations to people.
Yeah, yeah, that's great. I think for me this is weird. But I'm you know that my kind of echo chamber that I live in with research and psychology and academia and blah blah blah blah blah. It's all very very about the mind and logic and the brain and reasoning and processing and data analysis and objective this and that. I'm really interested in all of the wisdom that lives outside the mind. I'm really interested in what is the knowledge, what is the wisdom? What are the insights that exist
away from the brain, the prefrontal cortex? What is that? You know? And that and I don't know what that I mean. I guess if I had to describe it, it would just be more in that kind of a what's the word metaphysical or spiritual? You know, without becoming a weirdo, right, but just going is there something in that?
Like?
And because the problem, the problem with being all about logic, and this sounds counterintuitive, encounter productive or not counterproductive, but counter to some things I say is right, Even logic, the idea of logic is a flawed idea because when I say that's illogical, or I say that doesn't make sense, I'm saying, through my window of understanding, that's illogical, through my window of understanding, that doesn't make sense. Through my
window of understanding, that's unscientific or that's not possible. Right, But there were so many things have been I would say millions of things over humanity's timeline, the evolution of humans, right where there are things that would have been completely inconceivable, like flying in a fucking metal tube across the sky with I was looking yesterday an A three point eighty can have eight hundred humans in it, right, It's this two story plane, eight hundred people and all their shit,
all their luggage, and then the plane ways, whatever the fuck it ways, and it's in the air. It's in like for ninety nine point nine percent of humanity's existence that would have been seen as witchcraft or evil or impossible or illogical. Right, And then you go, well, like, I've had experiences in my life which to me and I'm not very woo woo but just logically make no sense.
But they happened, right, So I have personal evidence because it happened to me, and I wasn't high, and I wasn't drunk, and I'm not a generally an hysterical person, and so trying to you know, the mind is great, but the mind is limited of all there is to know. None of us are ever going to know one per cent of what there is to know. And I think that while the mind is brilliant and it's you know, as you hear me say, it's UHQ, it's your operational epicenter.
It's where we tell stories and interpret data and process the world around us, all of that is true, But then it's still just me looking at the world through my window. Like I'm interested in all the other stuff. I'm interested in the wisdom and the insight and the genius, uh and the truth that lives beyond what we think, because what we think is literally a code for how we see the world. You know. That's why I'm fascinated with understanding how you think, because you think all the time.
I think all the time, but there's virtually no overlap because I don't live in your thoughts or values or beliefs or mind or stories, and you don't live in mind. So we're both thinking, but there's total divergence, you know. Yeah, yeah, So for me, I don't think I answered your question, but yeah, I'm I'm fascinated with what there is beyond And this sounds unscientific, but fuck it beyond science because we think that and this is going to sound very
weird for a PhD student doing science. We think that science is the start and finish of what there is to know. But it's only science can only operate within our own capacity to reason and understand, you know, And as we evolve, and as we as a species and individuals evolve, things change, and what we used to think was impossible, we know is not only you know, not impossible.
It's an everyday occurrence now, Like there was a time when the idea of talking to a human on the other side of the world right like you, you're down the road at the moment. We're doing this on zoom, of course, but you could right now be in New York. It would be the same. It would be that, you know, I'd be looking at you on the other side of the world. I'd be seeing your face, you'd be seeing my face. We'd be in the middle of a conversation.
Yet where thousands of thousands of kilometers apart. Well, any other time in history that would have been absolute witchery or absolute bullshit or impossibility or so you go. Well, that's always been about these stories about what's possible, and so right now I think I think the courageous and the humble approach to take is, look, this is what I currently think, but I've been wrong a lot, so
I'm open to learn, you know. And the problem one of the problems with beliefs and knowing and logic is that we strongly identify with a certain way of thinking or believing or knowing. And when your identity is intertwined with knowing something, then you become unteachable. No one can teach you because you already know.
No.
I know my religion is the right religion, So fuck the other four thousand they're all wrong. I'm right. And this is and again that's just a very small example. It's not about religion, it's about thinking. So yeah, I'm going to do a big exploration beyond the mind.
I love that for you, I really do.
Yeah. Yeah, I've got so many stories that could that I don't just and I don't look for shit. I'm not like walking around looking for signs and shit. I'm not. I'm so like, give me a motorbike, give me, give me some Netflix, give me some dumbbells. Like I'm so fucking normal, regular, down to earth. I'm not out there looking for the woo woo. But the Woo woo finds me oh a lot, a lot. I go, yeah, I'm like, what is this about? And I go, oh, you know, so.
Yeah, yeah, I feel like we need to delve into this one in another episode.
Just what's that you do? I've spoken about it a couple of times. I've opened the door a little bit, but yeah, there have been times when I've known something way before and there's no way I could possibly know. And it's like I have had a very clear message to do or not do something, and the thing that I did or didn't do basically saved me from a bad thing. Yeah, and like unequivocally clear, like not no mystery around it, you know. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, I
love that. Where yeah, where does that come from? And it's like it's not like I've had thirty of those happen and twenty nine didn't. Like it's it's it's like, when that happens to me, I know somethings I just need to then pay attention. Yeah yeah, I'll tell you one off air, okay, And everyone's like, no, that's not fair. I just you know, you've got to I don't know. Sometimes I think I don't know next time when the student's ready, the teacher will appear. We'll see cal it's
been good, it's been great. Thanks for hanging out with me.
Thanks, Happy Sunday.
Happy Sunday. See ya, see ya,