A good team. I hope you're bloody terrific. Welcome to another installing the You project. And when I say that you project, I'm going to put a little asterisk next to that and say kinder kinder. The reason I say kinder is because the brilliant, handsome, devastatingly talented Andrew May of the Performance Intelligence podcast he and I got together last week. We did a chat. We had a chat.
Officially it was me on his show, but because I'm wildly lazy, I went, fucking he fuck, what if we do what us podcast is call a co share and we will share that conversation here at camp typ So that's what we're doing. So Andrew and I had Mazie, as his friends call him, Mazie and I had a good chat about the concept of well, we spoke about
success broadly, but we spoke about fame. We spoke about people's desire for attention and to be famous and be seen and be wanted and all of those things, and the idea of becoming an overnight success, which really, you know, there's so many moving past that, so many variables about that. And I think the title of his show was something like becoming an overnight success in twenty years or something
something like that. But anyway, we had a really good chat and I thought I would share that chat with you today. So hope you're good. Hope you're enjoying the start of your week if you're listening to this on the day that it is released, which is a Monday, which is August eighteen, the first August eighteen, twenty twenty five we've ever had. So if it is that day for you, it might be the day you do something special.
You've had lots of Mondays, but you've never had this one, as Craig Harp says, or whatever day it is, enjoy I hope you get something out of it. And love your collective guts is love jumbo.
In our modern landscape, we celebrate when somebody goes viral, but what happens when you do and nothing changes?
Today?
I with Craig Harper, effectingly known as Harps, one of Australia's leading performance coaches and host of the You Project podcast. Harps is over forty years of experience working across elite sport, media, health and professional development. Now, most overnight successes are the final scene of a long unseen grind but the public
only sees the climax and not the climb. I've got a question for you, Craig Harper in welcoming you back to the podcast for multiple times, what are your thoughts on an overnight success?
Hi, mate, good to be back. You sound very very professional straight out of the gate. I better try to live up to that. I can do.
Get a harps, mate, how you're going like, yeah, let's talk about the weather.
Well, that's what you were like before you press the go. But then all of a sudden, I've got summer radio.
He's put on podcast voice. He's not saying fuck who.
He's gone from moccasins and bloody army shorts to three piece suit. Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, it depends on how you define success. And you know, we know people blow up for somebody who does a video, they blow up, they go viral. I don't know why this person comes to mind. I don't even know if you remember this, but you know Huck Tour girl, you know that girl that I do remember her? Yes? Ah,
you gotta give him that huck top on that NNE. Yeah. Right, So we won't talk about the origin story of what she was talking about but you know, she did a grab. Somebody asked her a question and the answer to that and that subsequent little kind of exchange was videoed when nuts and so she Depending on what your KPIs are for success, you will say she was an overnight success. She went from from zero to hero in some ways, and from making no dough to making lots of dough.
But I think there was maybe a subsequent, almost as rapid decline. I'm not sure. So for me, success is really how someone is over the long term, and it may or may not have to do with anything commercial.
I've got another one for you. Do you remember Corey Worthington.
I was at that kind of party, kid or something that not.
Twenty sixteen, Layla McKinnon on The Current Affair did an interview. He had those yellow sunglasses. I can still remember Laylah saying, take those sunglasses off. And he's saying, why why should.
I take a few glasses and apologize to us. I'll say, sorry, but I'm not taking all my glasses. Why not because they're famous?
Because your glasses are famous. So he was a household name for a couple of weeks. His parents went away. He had a party. He had his fifteen minutes of fame. Here is massive. I've done a Google search. He's not doing a hell of a lot. I mean that with respect, but you know you look at that. That had millions, hundreds of millions of clicks and downloads. So it was just about going viral like that would set you up for success. But it's not well in some cases maybe,
But I look at you. You did a post yesterday. It was perfect timing for this mate. The post was called don't waste your potential. You said forty years ago. Forty years harps. Geez, you're looking fresh. Look at him, wiz Yeah, no, look at me.
I was only six.
I started in grade so that's all right. Forty years ago in brackets. In grade two I started a thing called personal training. People said it wouldn't last, nobody would pay. At best, it was a fat Four years later I set up something called a personal training center. Than were any in Australia. I was told I wasn't prepared for business. I wasn't that I was naive. I was that I would go broke. I didn't, it would fail, didn't have
a quarter of a century. I set up four centers work with thousands of clients, employed hundreds of pets, trained professional sporting teams, multiple Olympians, and found my way into the worlds of media, academia, corporate high performance, and personal development. I am grateful I did the work and grateful I didn't listen to those who predicted my demise. We end the podcast here, couldn't.
We forty years? Yeah? You coming out of a night success.
Thank you, great mate, thank you, Thanks poor boys girls, shortest podcast amazing harps have ever done.
I think well for me anyway. I can't speak on behalf anyone else, but because I'm not like I reckon, you'll argue this, but I would say that you are more innately talented and probably intelligent than me. I'm not saying I have no talent or no intellect, but because I've always been like at school, I didn't have great genes. I wasn't a great academic, I wasn't sporting. I was morbidly obese, and you know, until I lost a whole
bunch of weight, I was in many ways. I was very media okah, and if not aiming for mediocre, but I was kind of fascinated with human behavior and initially my own ability and my own potential and my own possibilities.
And I ended up losing a bunch of weight and going from a terrible athlete to not a bad athlete, not a great athlete, but not a bad athlete, you know, playing reasonable footy and doing like things that I could never have done, and building a body that was, you know, a way better version of the previous version, and going
okay at a few things. And I kind of realized that for me, my mediocrity was almost my motivation, because I knew that if I was ever going to do any good, it was only going to just be work and focus and commitment and discipline and fucking courage and self control because I was not you know, I went to school with lots of gifted kids creatively gifted, musically, gifted, athletically, gifted in intellectually, academically. I was in none of those groups.
So for me, that's always been ironically a source of inspiration.
I'm thinking of Angela Duckworth's theory of grit as you're talking about that, and she talks about grit eickalls passion plus hard work determination. So you find something you enjoy, your passionate about and then do the bloody work. What I've seen. The research shows this as well with a
lot of high performers. Initially, so the super talented kid, the young boy or girl who's just been blessed with God's gift or whatever denomination's gift, and they get by without doing much work, and they get external feedback, Hey, you're really good at tennis, at violin, English, at debating, and you've done no work. So what does that reinforce?
I'm really good and I've done no work. Everyone's telling me I'm really good, So I don't do work, and then eventually some kids like Harps and I'm going to come back. I argue, not that you were less talented. It you're a renovator's dream and perhaps whatever the role modeling environment, because.
You're just can you use that for the title Harps in brackets the renovators.
Dream done, got it chaped. But that conditioning at a young age, it's luck. You really do play the luck lottery, and you often take the piss out of yourself. The fat kid from the rabin who's done good, but you had the call there. You just needed to get the self worth, the self effictcausey exercise. So I wouldn't argue that I'm any more or less talented. You just didn't
get off to a good start. And I find that with a lot of people, as you do in the parallel lives we have of coaching and podcasting and speaking and writing and working with higher performers. Environment is massive where you come from, but it doesn't have to shape and dictate the rest of your life.
One hundred. That's a fucking great Sorry for all the swearing Andrews listeners, I'm very sweary. One of the questions that I'm sure you've been asked, I've been asked, I don't know many, more than hundreds of times, maybe thousands, but is you know, what about when I lose motivation or how do I stay motivated? Or how do I get motivated? Or how do I And I said, it's
not it's not the right question. Like you're operating on the assumption that motivation is the key to transformation, and if that were the case, well, I definitely wouldn't have done anything because I am just because I'm not motivated, you know, And with motivated, I'm talking about when most people talk about motivation, they talk about the state they're in excitement, enthusiasm, how they're feeling. Right. I listen to Anna and Craig talk and I was so motivated. Right
what happened? They had a state change, now motivated, So I went for a run, got up next morning, was a motivated, didn't go for a run. So there's this correlation between you know, or assumed correlation, if not causation between I am motivated, therefore you know that means I'm going to produce good outcomes and when I'm not motivated, I won't and I reckon. The key question with all
this kind of messiness around this is two key things. One, how productive and proactive and effective can you be when you can't be fucked that very human state of oh, can't be fucked cool? Now's the time. Now's the time right now, when you don't want it, when you don't feel like it, when your foots a little bit sore, when you're a bit tired, when you could absolutely rationalize it.
This might I'm not saying it always is. There's a time to chill out too, but sometimes that's the time literally to go do the thing that you need to do but you don't want to do. The second question
is around your capacity to do stuff. And this is almost the inverse of fifteen Minutes of Fame Corey Worthington, et l. But is your capacity to be able to do the things necessary when no one's looked, no one's cheering, no one's clapping you on, no one's affirming you, no one's telling you're a great bloke or slapping your back. In fact, no one gives a shit. Show me what you can do, then, because I think that's over the
long term. If we're talking about success being not a flash in the pan thing, but rather a reflection of how we live and our life and lifestyle and relationships and internal and external reality, then I think we're looking at a long term thing. I think it's your capacity just to keep doing the things that work, whether or not it's fun or not.
I'm nodding profusely. People watching this on YouTube will see and ladies and gents, I love wining the big fella up because we can riff and rant and you make me think of frameworks and maybe some dormant models that have been sitting there. As you said that totally aligned. Harp's totally aligned. I look at motivation is more external extrinsic exogynist.
So it's all that.
So sometimes people say, oh, I need you harps, I'll listen to the you project, I'll go to your personal training studio because you can motivate me. So it's requiring someone else to do it for you. Now, motivation can get your started. It's like a jumpstart of the car. But then you've got to fix the engine so you can start it yourself. I'm going to get a bit playful on words, but the origin of the word inspiration the Latin word inspirare, which means to breathe life into.
So I'm much more aligned to find what inspires you, what's internalized, and then if you can link that back to purpose, that's rocket feel. So I'm not discounting sometimes you do need a friendly kick in the proverbials to get you going.
Yeah, I love it. I love it. My simple similar analogy is or metaphor is you know, it's a spark that lights the fire, but you're the actual feel that keeps the fire burning. Right, So I think, firstly, I'm not anti motivation. I love motivation, you know, I think for many of us it's you know, it's the starting point and it's the thing that creates momentum, which is beautiful, but I think we don't want to be dependent on it, just like we don't want to be dependent on praise
or reinforcement or accolades or attention. Like I think it's almost like the currency in twenty twenty five is attention. That's what everybody wants. They want attention, you know, on social media, on Instagram, on Facebook, on whatever, on TikTok. It's like, give me attention, give me attention, give me attention, because then I can leverage that attention to something else that I want. You know. And while I understand that, I think some of the greatest growth and resilience and
transformation and breakdowns and breakthroughs happen in the darkness. I'm just holding the pause.
If I could cut out the studio lights and it would have been a dramatic effect, wouldn't it for our visual watches. Yeah, And this is the mistake a lot of people make, especially I think the younger generation now. And I'm not beating up on Jen hy gen Z millennials, all the young troops coming through, but it is different to when you and I grew up, because there was no Internet to rocket you to fame. But then ask that question. So you get all the downloads, but is
it actually making a difference for you? Now, Yes, some people can accelerate a business that can say, grow a book, grow a podcast quickly. But any athlete I sit down with Harps, any coach, I sit down with any entrepreneur, any high performer, any leader of defense who really wants to go to the next level. I'm talking about world class. It's a decade unless you're a ridiculous rock star and you find you're in a current that just propels you like nothing else, and then you see whether people are
really cut out for it. What you mean a decade? I thought if I did some coaching with you and did a bit of a mental ioways upgrade, I could do this shit in twelve months. No, you like, you're good, but to be great, or to be world class, it takes you a long time. And I've got an example for you, mate, because I know how in tune you are with popular culture. So you listen to Sabrina Carpenter, don't throw me under.
The bus like that after you pump up my ties. I do not, so clearly I'm not up on pop culture.
You know her most popular song from twenty twenty four, Espresso, Right, she's had millions of downloads.
Ah ah, yeah.
That's all I listened to. So when you do the research for that. Before Espresso came out, she had five albums. A couple of first ones were virtual, non existent. She signed an agreement with Disney. She was in the TV show Girl Meets World back in two thousand and fourteen, and she was doing acting and singing before that. So she's been fifteen plus years and then suddenly she rockets. I only know of it because I've got a seventy year old daughter. I mean, her and her friends were
talking about Sabrina Carpenter. I thought i'd google it and I did, and they were talking. I said, oh, I love espress it. But what I really like is how she's grown from her Disney person a Girl Meets World. And one of Mikla's friends looked at me and she just looked looked at me, really impressed, and she said to Micala, I wish my dad was that girl.
Michale said, no, you don't, No, you don't. Yeah, I love that. I have a really, I think nice story around that. So I had a guy called Jim Murphy on my show. He's not this similar to you, Like, he's a high performance guy, got masters, works with teams and athletes. He's from the States. He wrote a book. I'm going to say, I think it's called In Her Excellence The blah blah, but something like that in two thousand and nine. I think that's the Anyway, his story is.
His story is that you've got to get him on, Like get him on, you will love him. I mean so, But here's his story. So he wrote this book sixteen years ago and it did okay, but no one knows who he is. Right, And he was a budding, fledgling baseball player, got signed to a major baseball league club, didn't had a few issues, didn't really go anywhere, ended up going back to school, did all this stuff, and so it was doing okay but not great. So he wrote this book and the book is good, but no
one knows who is. He doesn't have a brand, he doesn't have a profile. I don't know how many books he sells. But you know it's not a it's not a breakthrough, groundbreaking, world changing book. Anyway. Sixteen years later, earlier this year, I'm trying to remember. I keep learning, you know when you learn like five new things a day. And anyway, there was an NFL player during a game. He's one of the best players in the NFL. I
think he's a running back. Anyway, during the game, this is this year, sixteen years later after Jim wrote the book. He's sitting on the sidelines. You know how the offensive team goes on, then they come off, and then the defense goes on. So every time he would be back on the sidelines, he would be reading this book, this sixteen year old book that this dude wrote. And all of a sudden, the commentator is like, I've never ever seen an NFL player reading a book during the game.
And they zoomed in and there's bits highlighted and he's it's like these are his anyways, So this dude almost overnight becomes the biggest selling author on the planet.
What a great story, A lote moment.
So sixteen years old, the book is all of a sudden, He's on every major network. He's doing interviews, he's doing
speaking gigs all around the world. He's talking a little Fatty Harps in Australia, like he's gone from and it took sixteen years, and it was because one moment in time, like there was a guy reading that book, like he does work with good athletes, so he's you know, I'd say he's probably at the level you and Irad or you know, but it's not like his Oprah or maybe maybe he's not quite or wasn't quite at the level. I'm not sure. It doesn't matter, but yeah, and what's
beautiful is he's a great guy. He is a great guy, and he is so grounded and he is so not a fathead. He is so humble, so self aware, and I loved him. I'm like, I'm so glad you are the way that you are because when I read your story, when I looked at some of the TV footage and you think, I hope this good is this guy's as good as he seems, and he was even better and yeah, just a gentleman and like he is going to ride that wave now. But like I've never met him in person, but great story.
Right place, right message, right time, right Blake, grounded and he'll just accelerate. Oh definitely, I'll get his details because that sounds a phenomenal story and good story. Totally backs up. This doesn't it that. Yes, you may become viral, which is a new term, but viral does not equal long term success or sustained performance. Got to ask you, do you have a definition of success? All right, then I've
got a question for you. You know what I love when we do podcast and even you sent this through to me? Who's interviewing who?
Mate? I said, I don't really know.
I do you want to do a podcast?
I go, yeah, sure when? And you're like tomorrow? I'm like, okay, who's interviewing who? Like? I don't care? Well? It mixes, right, it mixes. Look, success for me is not a thing, but it's it's a few things. And I think, like, this is a really interesting conversation because and this is true for many things, like success for me will not be success for someone else. I might say, Andrew, when it comes to personal health, what is success for you?
And you go ABC? And I go, all right, tell me what success is now from a career point of view, and that's something else? And I go, now, tell me about your relationships? What how did you How do you know if that is a successful party or exist or it's where you would like it to be, And so I think success is not for me. It's not a global thing. It's a bunch of things, because my life is not a single thing. It's a composite of things.
And also I think for the individual, what we deem to be success or our version or our I guess description of success will vary over time. So if you had have said to me, you know, Harps, what are you When I was thirty and I owned three gyms, and I had one hundred staff, and I owned two other businesses, and all this stuff was going on, and I was in the gym and I was like the captain of the ship, and it was high energy and it was all bloody, you know, dumbbells and giggles and
photos of the old Harps. You're well, I was jacked and full of ego and bullshit, and you know, for a while there, I mean, it was just amazing. It was beautiful, there was great energy. But then there came a time when I'm like, yeah, no, that's enough. Yeah it doesn't. This ain't what I want to do anymore. It's not that it's bad, it's not that we're doing anything wrong. I've just this doesn't meet the need in
me that it once did. I still want to work with people and help people and be of service and value. But me, you know, setting the bike seat for dinner, and you know, counting reps for Barry, and you know, fucking spotting John on the squat bar. It's not my thing anymore.
You know, we have a lot of fitness traders and personal traders.
Listen to this.
There's a little bit more than that. So I interrupted you. So definition of success has changed for you?
It's ev Yeah, I think it's fluid. It's fluid. It's like for somebody like I realized when I was in my twenties that I don't want to be I don't want a job. I don't want to work for someone. I don't want to clock in at that time clock out at that time. Not because that is bad, but because it didn't work for me. I didn't find a lot of joy in that or fulfillment in that, and
I couldn't grow in that. And I wanted to do something where and I'm sure there were some employee employer situations where I really could have grown, but not that I had experienced personally. And so you know, for me that success is about, you know, getting better in a way. It's about learning and growing and evolving, and you know, waking up at sixty one and going, hey, I'm not shit, I'm not falling apart. My brain works. I mean, I can't be objective, but as objective as I can be.
I think my brain is better than it was when I was forty or thirty. I think I'm you know, there's obviously deterioration, which is inevitable physiological deterioration. But I'm still pretty fit and pretty strong and pretty healthy. You know, I'm very grateful for all of that. So just trying to work well, you know, can I double click on that and that I want to talk about success? And then you said you've got a question. I actually think that the way that we think about age is really unhealthy,
really unhealthy. I believe that we you know, your mind has a massive impact on your physiology. You know, if you think something bad's gonna happen but it's not gonna happen, you think you're in danger, then all of a sudden, your bodi's change, sympathetic nervous system ENDO, crime's system, all that stuff, blood pressure, adrenaline, cortisol, respiration, everything's through the roof, like just a thought can have a negative physiological consequence.
And when your story is, oh, this is my age, so therefore my options are now this when that's not actually true. Of course, there's an inevitability about physiological aging, of course, but the variability is how we age and the rate at how we age, and also your honor. While I'm pleading my case, the fifty year old who's never really trained, who starts to train is going to get better. They're not just going to kind of maintain. They're gonna get better. And you think about how many
people consciously train their body, quite a few. How many people consciously and I mean intentionally structured, reasoned application train their brain almost none? Almost none. And your brain is exactly like the rest of your body in that it will deteriorate if you're not doing something to stop it
from deteriorating. And so for me, part of my reason for doing a PhD is that is, like, oh, I know so much stuff, not because I'm brilliant, not because I'm smarter than anyone, but just because I've been through this multi year process where oh I went into an environment where I was totally inept. I'm not even being metaphoric when I say I was literally the dumbest one in the room. I couldn't speak the language, I didn't
understand the culture. I would read academic papers, I would have to reread one page for an hour to understand what the paper was saying. I didn't know how to write at a PhD level. And that's among all the other things I've been doing over the last five years. And it's just because you know, I'm so excited about and this is not bullshit for a podcast. I'm so excited about what I can do, not what people think of me, not how much money I can earn, but
just what I can do. Because I think our limitation is not our potential or our capacity nearly as much as it is our thinking about our potential. Like we have age related thinking, and then we have people going, oh, well, you know what your age. Your shut the fuck up at your age, Like stop it. I mean, my training partner just turned sixty. He looks like a fucking freak. And his you know, he rides an hour and a
half two hours a day on his bike. He still works, he still does stuff, he trains, he's learning all the time. He's always researching. He's always doing stuff. He's got three kids, he's got a wife. It's not like he's self centered. He's not. And he inspires me. He's you know, and he's a year and a half younger than me.
Your body language, everything ramped up your volume. We've we've hit a hot button.
My question to you is, I just want to circle back to one thing we spoke about, you know, fifteen minutes of fame. Fame, everyone wants to be literally. I did a talk at a school a few months ago, which I don't do many schools, but it was year tens, private college, of course it was, and we spoke about you know, the why and what and how of goals and stuff, very basic, and I just said, who wants to go? Why don't you five, five of you tell me what your goals are? I said, I need five hands.
Five hands went up. Two of the five. You know what? The goal was? To be famous? That's their goal. Now I'm not judging that. I'm just curious about that.
Also in that generation to be YouTubers Instagram.
Yeah why And they're like what, I go, why so you want to be famous? Why? Neither of them could tell me. I think people confuse fame or even popularity with love. Like I've got a reasonably high profile. I'm definitely not famous, but you know in Melbourne, I'm moderately well known. But I don't confuse that at all with friendships or real connection or love or you know. It's like I reckon, if you have five people in your life who love you unconditionally, you're doing great. So what
do you think about fame? What's the drive? Why do people want that?
I'm going to try and tap this into my definition of success and try and wrap two open loops up together. So this is either going to go ah, our audience will go that makes sense, or they go he totally stuffs that on our bold symbol. I've dropped to sitter. I think there's two definitions, or two origins of success. One is external and that it can be aligned to your performance based identity. I perform Therefore I am now
there's nothing wrong with that. You and I have worked with hundreds collectively of athletes, thousands of people, tens of thousands who have been driven by a performance based identity, and that is external and extremes.
You can get.
Rewarded with money and fame and cash and accolades and love and relationships and all that stuff, and there's nothing wrong with that. But where I spend a lot of my time and I know you do, is then try to stitch that together with more internal intrinsic, inspirational, and that's a purpose based identity, and that's who I am in this world and how I contribute. And for a lot of people that go our purpose, mate, I'm too busy, tired, distracted, I can't go there.
Well, just look at meaning. What gives you meaning?
So I think they are the two definitions. And this is not new because you look at the literature. You've got you'd ammonia and heat ammonia. The you'd ammonia aligned to the Greek word or philosophy of being connected. It's more than you and headimonia is all about just you and power and kudos and everything else. So to me, I think there's a beautiful diagram like a ven diagram,
and you can have them both intersecting. So do I want to build a business and make money and have a nice house and a car and have some experiences? Abs A frequently harps absolutely, But is that the only goal? No, because the first forty years of my life, I was so performance based, and then you know, my story went through a marriage breakdown, living in a big house, big cars, water views, two kids, and I was miserable because there's nothing for me. So to me, it's the stitching together
of the two. Now, if you do that, it's sustainable. If you do that, it can be really impactful because then you're living on your terms, your purpose. So then what is fame. Fame could be the barista in a small country town it makes frickin awesome coffee that keeps everyone awake, but more so connected first thing of a morning. Or fame may be getting millions of record styles and downloads.
But to me, it's stitching the two together. So I think you can have external success, but you've got to be grounded in a set of values, and the purpose is bigger than you. It's future focused, and it excites the living daylights out of here. I've just gone pretty deep and broad with you. So to me, it's those two definitions of all identities, the purpose based identity and
the performance based identity. And I find I'm sure for your audience and my audience, a lot of them will understand the performance based identity, because that's what the that's the school board that we're measured on. We're measured on this. You make the team where you don't you score the points or you don't you get the girl or the guy, or you don't you get the metrics at work or you don't.
So life is very.
Much performance based, and I think for a lot of people, you've got to adapt to that and work with that. Why we have so many people although who earns so much money. I've worked with a couple of billionaires and no miserable bastards because they develop nothing about the heart or about the connection of the purpose. I'll draw a breath. There's a very long answer to a simple question.
No, No, I like it. I like it. I think identity is a really interesting door to open because we often attach our beliefs or our talent or our capacity to
win or whatever it is. You know. It's like obviously religion's a big one, but you know, when you believe something, or you think you believe something, or you do believe something, or you think you know something, you think you're right about something, you think you have the answer, you have insight that other people don't have, and that becomes intertwined with if not truly representative of your identity, then you make yourself pretty much unteachable unless somebody is echoing your
same thoughts, right, And this is a you know, of course, confirmation bias and the famous old echo chamber, and you know we that it is two things are I think true in most people. At the same time we say, oh, yeah, I want to be a better version of me. I'm open minded, I love learning. Da da da da da. But at the same time we are pretty much fucking rock solid unteachable on certain things because we think that we absolutely know when we don't know. We don't have knowledge.
We have belief. We have faith, and faith and belief are good things. But it's like I've probably said this to you at some stage and maybe listeners, but I grew up and it's not about religion. It's about thinking.
It's about metacognition. It's about understanding why you think the way you think, and understanding why you have such a fear based emotional attachment to an idea or a construct or an ideology because you are the ideology and if someone attacks the ideology or thought or the belief, then
you feel attacked. Now, when you are intertwined with something else that isn't you, especially if we're talking about a theoretical construct, it's it's very, very hard to truly be objective and awhere and conscious because you are always looking at life through the window of or the filter of I am a Vegan, I am a Catholic, I am a whatever. It is not the being a vegan or a Catholic about, of course, but it's hello to all of that vegan Catholic podcast. But it's no. But do
I have self limiting beliefs? Yes? Do I Look, I mean, this is the point. This is I'm saying this for me too. I'm saying there was a I was also. I don't know if you know this, but I went through a phase where I went to a fundamental born again Christian tambourine banging, rafter swinging.
Church for years years just on that people. People can go back in our backlog on the Performance Intelligence podcast, not the most recent one, I think the one before that, episode number one hundred and two.
Do you remember the title.
I think it's the best title we've ever done in a podcast. It was Jesus Joe's Hands.
And Jeers that's right, that's right, remember conversation. But there were times when if you tried to even talk to me about something that was an alternate theology or theory, I wouldn't have listened to you, right, And that is all about me. That is all about and I understand that. So I'm not saying don't believe, don't think. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, if we truly want to be teachable and cognitively and emotionally and even spiritually malleable, like
that is where we are open to learn. We are okay with being wrong. We are okay with not knowing. Here's an idea. When someone asks you something and you don't know, go I don't know the end. Not Ah, It's like there's so much shit of all there is to know. If all there is to know is an ocean, I'm a drop of water in that ocean.
When you do that, not even I find I wouldn't have done that in my early career because I thought I've got to be this omniscient, omnipotent person pretending it's bullshit. It's a facade when you say to somehow, I don't know. I had an athlete last week and a coach actually talking to both of them. They asked me something. I said, Okay, that's a really good question. I'm not sure. Can you give me a bit of time to go and check
on that and I'll come bat you. The athletic left and I was with the coach just having a coffee. He said, that was really refreshing. I said, what I said? When you just said I'm going to go and check that, I said, well, I didn't know. I wasn't going to make it up. We're talking about something pretty serious to this athlete. I said, it's totally totally negligent of me to make that up if I don't know that comes
with age. And just to wrap out on success, because I want to talk a little bit about hard work, which is non sexy and boring, and as you said, done in the shadows. What if we got our listeners and our viewers, so our collective audience to just sit down and write down what is success for you? Grab a beverage of your choice, and just sit down for ten or fifteen minutes with no distraction and just ask that question. What is success or a statement? Success for me is dot dot dot?
Now?
I gave you that definition with two nice circles crossed over purpose based identity, performance based identity, but made. It's taken me lots of highs and lows and stuff ups and fuck ups to actually put that together. And a simple one for me is making sure I'm making a contribution to the outside world, connecting with my loved ones and from a personal point of view, engaged and feeling like I'm being deuced. So it doesn't have to be high level, high science, high tech. What is it that
defines or delineates success for you? And you know what, harps, You've been on this planet just a little bit longer than me, mate. But the more I deal with people, the more I just realize we've got to help people with a framework because we don't get this manual on how we work, and we're fricking complicated and complex, and we're becoming more so with tech and AI and there's a whole bunch of stuff on that as well.
AI.
Yes it's helping you be more productive, but it's killing your brain if you don't work it. But we really do just need to sometimes come back to fundamentals and go what is it like, what is going to make me happy or fulfilled? And what is success to me? And then reverse engineer it, set your life up for it rather than just getting into this slipstream before you realize you wake up ten, twenty thirty, forty fifty years later living someone else's life and go, shit, what was that.
Yeah, look, I think that's a great question to ask, and I think another question to ask, so one from Andrew, one from Harps. My question is what are your values? And is your life a reflection of those values? So for me, values are just the things that matter to you most, and you can't get it wrong because they're
your values. But so I would say for me, things like you know, physical mental, emotional health, that's a value, looking after people that I love, my parents, being elderly right now, that's probably my number one value at the moment. Having a purpose bigger than me, and being of service, which Andrews spoke about, that's a value for me. So I think, you know, and it sounds cheesy and cliche and we can all go, oh, yeah, of course it is, because you're on a fucking podcast. I get that too.
I get that too. And have I ever been a selfish, self centered, thoughtless, lacking empathy. Have I ever Yes, sure have, Sure have? Do I ever do that? Now? Sure?
Do?
I try not to. I try to be more aware. I am one of the most flawed people I know, but I'm okay to say that, and I'm a work in progress. But what having clarity about our values does. It helps us make decisions as we navigate life. Where we go, Oh, here's an opportunity, or here's a decision I've got to make, or here's a situation I've got to deal with. Well, these are my values, so it's clear. It's clear what I need to do or not do. It's not easy because sometimes some of those opportunities are
financially rewarding, but they don't align with my values. And I think we've spoken about this, but I've had a number of probably five or six or seven really good commercial opportunities on my show that I couldn't take. They were financially good opportunities, but they didn't They just didn't align with what I think and what I believe, and I definitely couldn't sell that stuff. So I went, I would love your dough, but I can't sell your stuff. And so was it easy? No? Was it clear? Though?
Absolutely it's now a perfect segaway. We're going to take an AD and we'll be back to the program shortly. This program with Craig Harper is sponsored by hard Rock Correct Ol dysfunction Treatment. You're having problem getting.
Well? That I would certainly sponsor that.
I I want you then going, Hey, shiny head, didn't tell me he's now bringing ads in. You were thinking this guy's gone next level? Hey bringing it an AD? Not talking about hard rock? Well close enough, hard.
Rock hard something. And yes, it's.
Well, that's where we were going, wasn't that. Yes, that's right.
See what you do to me.
You make me feel intelligent and playful and silly all at once. Harps, you're an influence on all sides of my spectrums.
Don't blame me for your bad behavior. You take responsibility.
We've both gone a little bit red, or I would take a breath. Rip Van Winkle a fictational character from a short story by a dude named Washington Irving published back in the eighteen hundred. Somewhere you know the Rip van Winkle story is an easy going dude. This is I actually dug this up because I've been saying for a long time. Rip Van Winkle. It takes fifteen twenty years to become an overnight success. But I'd never looked at the origin story. Do you know the origin story?
Tell me that, Like, I know of the story, but I really don't know the story story.
Yeah, so I thought, in preparation for chatting to you, I'm going to use Rip van Winkle. I better actually find out about the old Vans to himself. So this is what the information says. Rip is an easy going man who wanted to escape his nagging wife. Please, any of our audience, do not shoot the messenger. This is what I was saying. By wandering into the mountains, he had some mysterious liquor given to him by strange men. He fell asleep, and he woke up twenty years later.
When he returned to his village, everything had changed, including the fact the American Revolution had taken place and people barely recognized him. He felt fus and out of time. However, the overnight success part of this relates to a metaphor used to highlight the illusion that someone becomes successful out of nowhere, or the public perception of a sudden transformation without acknowledging the long passage of time. And the changes
that happened quietly in the background. So Rip comes back and it's changed massively because he's been asleep so he didn't actually see the subtle changes. And it's also the idea of waking up one day to discover the world. Finally sees your success, Rip and be involved in a fair bit of planning in the town in the early days, even though the process had been happening the whole time. So the Rip van Winkle effect LinkedIn to Craig Harper.
Just give our audience who don't know you, just a bit of a highlight of some of the successes and stuff ups you've had. How many podcasts, how many businesses? Really point because because someone you've got one of the most downloaded podcasts in Australia. Awesome success, great speaking business. But give us the reality.
So I get about between six and eight million views every thirty days on my Instagram, so that's pretty good. I've written seven books. I've worked on in Telli. I worked on Channel ten on a show called The Dave and Kimshow Morning Show for three years. I did a weekly spot on there. I worked in commercial radio, set up the first personal training centers in Australia. As you alluded to wrote the first course. I didn't go to UNI til I was thirty six for the first time.
So there's some encouragement for you old and want to be students. Spoken all over the world, spoken in about thirty countries. Yeah, and like just a lot of fun stuff. And for me, I feel like my biggest achievement in this kind of workspace is creating a model of work that doesn't feel like work, like I genuinely just love the stuff that I do. And the other day I went into State and I got stopped twice, once at Brisbane and once here in and both people said essentially, harps,
follow you stuff, love you stuff. You're great, so appreciate you. I know you don't know me, but you've had an impact in my life and thanks. And one of them was a dude, the other one was lady. And he goes, can I give you a hug? I'm like, fuck, bring it in, bro, you know. So I'm at the airport, I'm hugging a dude. I got. I didn't cry, but I was about fucking two nine to oh seconds away
from crying. And I got on the plane and I thought, this is why I love my life, Like he was this dude to struggle with addiction and all this stuff, and he's just in a really good place. And clearly I didn't do the work. He did the work, clearly, but just being a little part of that journey for me, you know that that stuff is, you know, that's always for me, like way more meaningful than, you know than any kind of financial reward or commercial success. But yeah, so lots of stuff, lots of years.
And then if you were a record, that's your top hits at the A side, flip the record over, what's the B side? What are some of the stuff ups and the setbacks? How many different podcasts did you have until you got you projects?
Yeah? So I had three shows that didn't work. Even the first two hundred shows of the U Project, I was losing money. Oh yeah. I mean my theory is you can't become a black belt without being a white belt, right. You can't get good at what you won't do. You can't master what you avoid. So everything that I started initially I was either absolutely fucking terrible or very mediocre. But how do you get good? Will you get good by keep showing up? You know, keeping showing up. So
I remember my first speaking gig. I was twenty six. It was in a timber yard. It was to thirty employees in their lunch room. The guy that I owned the timberyard was one of my pt clients. I was terrible. I was absolutely shitting myself. I couldn't string four words together. They hated me, they hated it. They couldn't get out of there quick enough. But I had this weird sense of Okay, I've done one. That's the worst I'm going
to be. And that was the worst I ever was, right, and and then there was still a lot of stuff up. Like you have to be. If your compass is set on comfort and instant gratification and certainty and familiarity, that's the best possible way to not develop, to not grow, to not learn, to not build understanding, awareness and resilience. So I've made way more fuck ups than I've had successes. But when you you know, as we do, we reframe shit and you go, yeah, but what did you learn? Well?
I actually learned a bunch of stuff, Like I learned setting up harpers. Right. There were no personal training centers. There wasn't even a course or an accreditation. There was an insurance like nobody I'm setting up this thing. I don't even have a single person in a country of whatever. It was then twenty million that I can ask for advice because no one's done it. And I'm twenty five or twenty six at the time. I'm not a businessman.
I don't have a degree. I don't understand leadership. I don't understand dealing with counsels and lawyers, and I don't you know, like it was just dive in the deep end. He actually can't swim, but hopefully he won't drown, and I so nearly drowned a hundred times. But you know, that's kind of what makes you.
And any person who's had success over a sustained period of time is going to say the same thing. It wasn't just rocket ship taking off. It's set back cardship, motivation fuel, but was sort of come back to hopefully a link to where we were before, knowing what's important for you, being values aligned, it's going to be the rocket fuel that keeps you going. Because if it's just all for the clickbait, Hey I've got this many likes, what makes me feel good? That stuff's going to run
out very very quickly. Isn't it as a fuel source?
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think you need to be, you know, intrinsically motivated and really that. Like I was an only child, I was insecure. I had I don't know if actually had a bigger ego, but I was very insecure. I was very fearful, and I was probably sociologically kind of needy because I didn't have brothers and sisters. And my mum and dad were amazing still are amazing people, but ironically we were never super close. It was like growing up in my house was like living with an auntie
and uncle that were great, right, It wasn't. There wasn't this super close, emotional, warm, fuzzy connection. So yeah, I was a pretty insecure and I would say, you know, I probably still got bullshit going on, but up until I was thirty, I was really like psychologically and emotionally dealing with stuff on a daily basis while role playing you know, the cool, confident guy to the world.
I genuinely mean what I'm about to say. I am glad you pushed through. I really am, because you're you're been a mentor and inspiration to me. You think I was going to take the piece. Then I really remember what I'm about to say.
I was hoping you are to get serious. Why don't you get serious? I don't know where to Let's let's do the one I generally mean. I'm about to say you're an absolute tool Harps and we love. That's better.
Isn't it funny that I'm more comfortable with that. I've had this chat before and I didn't do that purposely. But let me let me say you have been a real mentor of mine. And the mentor doesn't have to be someone live. You can get a mentor through a podcast or through a book. But the origin I came up to you, I was twenty five, full head of hair, fitness, confidence, you know the story, and said, oh you're Craig harper manre may and from Hobart. Can I have a chat?
Said?
Yeah, look, have a lunch, come walk with me. So you you opened up then. I don't know how many thousands of people you've opened up to your studio. I've heard a similar story from a whole bunch of people. You're very giving. I'm really grateful that you pushed through because you've done the hard work, You've the rip Van Winkle time to too and a bit more and then
you have the compound interest. But I want to talk about one topic before we wrap up, and that's the notion of when do you know enough is enough?
And I walk away.
Because more discretionary effort, more time invested in this, it's actually not going to help. So will There's glory in persistence. There's also wisdom in pivoting and knowing the difference around what separates obsession from evolution is really really important. I have an example personally for me. It was running. I stopped running at twenty eight. I had two goals, break the four minute mile and to go to the Olympics, and I did neither. Could have I run faster?
Yeah, I reckon.
I could have got my fifteen hundred time down maybe another four or five seconds would have taken a couple of years. Did I have the heart, share, passion, commitment, disciplined to do that?
God?
Now, I had just run out of energy. So the best thing for me at that stage was actually the stop. And this is interesting Harps as far as having a career and a life outside of just being a runner. Mental toughness is misconstrued as just being about resilience and grips and hardiness and all those construct William Wallace.
But they won't take our freedom.
He charged or she charged through fiery furnace and save the people and the children. But mental toughness. The other side of mental toughness is knowing when to give up, because that frees you up to go into other areas.
Yeah, I would reframe it. I wouldn't say giving up. I think I know what you're saying, but I would be like, yeah, doesn't have the same kind of feel for me anymore. It's not that important anymore. It doesn't matter to me enough. It did matter a lot once, it doesn't now. When I do a cost benefit analysis on how much I need to invest in this to potentially maybe move the needle a little bit, and what the outcome or the benefit might be, it's really not
worth it. Like I walked away from personal training and I was pretty good at it, and I could charge stupid money, but it's not It had its I think things have a use by date, mate. I feel like they have a psychological and emotional used by date for us. Where I go that used to blow my socks off, it doesn't anymore. That doesn't mean everything's got to blow
my socks off that I do. But if I'm talking about, you know, what's going to keep me in the game and excited and a bit focused and all of that stuff, then you know it's got to be something that I really want to be pursuing. But the other side of that, of course, is you know, well, what are the things that I need to do to, for example, be a good so to look after my Well, that's just not about me. That's not about what I want. That's about what I need to do to meet my mum and
dad's needs. Right. But I think if we're talking more from a career point of view or a trying to become an Olympic runner point of view, or I think, you know, I think we have this innate knowledge and wisdom that we go no, mate, that's you're probably not going to run sub four minutes, or you might, but it could take you five years, and whether or not that is the best investment of five years, you probably know it's not.
And do you have that grit duckworth definition perseverance and passion And I found I had neither. I think that's a good filter to run like if you really want to go hard and keep going, are you passionate about it? Do you think you can continue to persevere? So rather than giving up. I like that that correction on the words. It's more around a pivot or an evolution to what's next.
Yeah, I mean like if I said to you, I actually don't know what the answers got to be. I think I do. Somebody asked me this years ago, and I answered straight away, and they're like, really, I go absolutely, And they said, okay, so tonight you can talk to one hundred people and you're going to get paid twenty grand, or over the road at Rod Laver Arena, you can talk to ten thousand people for free. What do you choose?
I go, Rod Laver Arena. I go, but I want three or four hours with them, not a I don't want to do a keynote because and even let's say, and by the way, there's zero chance Craig, that following that three or four hours with those ten thousand people, that there's any commercial benefit for you, right, I'm like, yes, I don't want anything, just time with those people me now where I am and back then, That's what I would choose because that's just the for me. That's the
currency that matters. And I know that sounds cheesy, but and yes, you've got to pay the bills, and you've got to feed the kids, and you've got to pay for school fees, and you've got to put gas in the car, and I get it, and of course those things matter. And of course I am privileged. I realize I'm privileged and lucky or blessed or whatever you want to call it, that I'm in a position where it's not weak to weak desperate kind of finances, you know.
But yeah, that's how much I love this. And when I met you all those years ago, and again this sounds like bullshit, but I realized really early that if I was selfish, one, I wasn't a great person to be around. Two, I didn't like me. And the best version of me is the version of me that wants you to be great for no reason other than I want you to be great. I want you to succeed. Even if I fail, I want you to succeed. And you know, there's a thing, there's a term, here's a
term for you. You've taught me, what t you taught me inspirare today I wrote it down. I'm teaching you one. It's called sharden freuder. Have you heard that?
The opposite that would be mitfreuder.
I don't know what that is.
Shaden Freuder is pleasure through other people's misery. Yes, mitfreuder is pleasure through other people's success. You're a mittwell not a shark.
Yeah, that's me. Wow, you taught me something. Yeah, And so for me, that like when I am I'm involved in someone's growth or success or happiness. And again this sounds selfish, It's like it gives me an experience that I can't through doing anything for myself. I can't have that. There's nothing I can get that gives me that feeling of helping you become amazing, or helping you on your supporting you or encouraging you or seeing you do great. And I think that like coming full circle and being
a bit weird and deep. Fuck it, I don't care. I got asked on a podcast whose was it? The other day? They said, if you if there was if everything you've ever said, or ever written, or all the stuff that you've put out into the world was deleted, and you could leave us with one message, what would that message be out of everything and not leaning back into anything. I just said, love matters most. And you know, I sat with a friend of mine six months ago
who was essentially my second mum. I loved her very very much. She was at death's door. I sat with her in hospital and I held her hand for an hour and a half and we just spoke. There was no one else in the room, and she died about forty eight hours later, and I was sitting with her and I just, I don't know. I don't know what your beliefs are these days. I don't even know what mine are. But I'm like, all the rest is bullshit, Craig, All the rest is just stories that you tell yourself.
And it's not all bullshit, of course, But in that moment, I went, all I want to do is be here and love her, and like, it was the most painful and beautiful hour and a half maybe of my life, right, And you like, I invest so much emotional and psychological energy into stuff that really it's you know, I know it's all context dependent, but yeah, I think if we, if we could, and I know this isn't the way the world works, but imagine if we, for the most part,
really try to operate from a place of love, and I mean real love. I don't mean conditional love. I don't mean strategic love, because conditional and strategic love are not love. But just where you go. Fuck, I'm happy for you. Fuck, I love you. I want you to do well. You know for me. That's it. That's it, that's that's maybe. That's my answer to what is success.
We could riff for hours, and we do. I'm going to start to close this broad ranging discussion. I appreciate you. I really appreciate you. I really appreciate your message and the learnings I have had and continue to have from you. And I appreciate the relationship and the connection we have. And I even reflect on today it is the five deeds of dodgeball, dodge, duck, dive, dip, and dodge. We have talked about everything today, from meta cognition and transcendence
right through to erect old dysfunction ads. I'm still cracking up about the look on your face thing, shiny heads putting at it. He didn't even tell me, oh idiot. And the worst part is some people will go the ED stuff was the best. Well, it's range. David Epstein, Right, you need range, but I genuinely mean that I appreciate you. I appreciate what I learn from you and what you give to the world, and I appreciate our friendship and
the love that you bring to everything you do. So those those three words, those very simple words, which is really deep and complicated to get so simple. You're on brand mate, Thanks mate, I.
Appreciate you, love you, care about you, happy that you're killing it, and that you're doing stuff that's impacting people in a great way. So go you. Hey listeners, you didn't expect this love festige your fucking hell. You probably need to go take a shower after this.
If we're in the airport, we'd be hugging and having a bit of a moment.
We definitely would know. Mate, you're great, love you, thank you so much for having me.
And overnight success doesn't happen, right. You can have a meme, or you can become a meme, you can have a viral hit, But the fundamental message to finishes twofold love and connection. That's a little bonus that's come out of this. But to be successful, you've got to do the hard yards. It doesn't mean it has to be really difficult, but you've just got to be patient, have a long range view and enjoy it along the way.
What he said, love your brother so you might