I get a team. It's John bos Craig Athney, har Tiffany and Cook. We'll start with Tip, then we'll go to the actual star of the show, Kelly Smith, who is rapidly climbing the fucking typ ladder. Tiff you and I better watch our.
Backs and we're not going to have a spot here anymore.
Yeah the hell. It's like I was walking down Hampton Street and people were like, who's that bloke with Kelly Smith? I'm like, what, what? How are you? Cook?
I'm good, I'm good.
What's going on? Tell we love an update on your body, because it's either brand new and bursting out of its skin and full of fucking hormones and muscles and shit, or it's fucked and you're getting treatment from nine different people. That's the current status.
Option b today, Option Bree. I've got a shooting pain down and I'm in pain. It's not fun.
Yeah, you're a little bit like a race horse.
That's what my boxing coach used to call me, the thoroughbread.
Yeah, because you're pretty. I mean like, I'm like a fucking draft horse, right, I'm just a plunker probably in a lot of ways, just a plunker, slow and steady, no skill, no speed, fucking no talent, but you're like the fucking ready made you know, would be Olympian like four weeks notice, you'd be good for the Olympic Games. You know. For me, I'll be good for the like that. You know that room with the balls that ika, that's me.
The room with the balls that I care?
What is that when the kids play?
Oh?
I don't know that room?
Hell do you know that room?
Yeah? I think it's it was before the days of O H and s though, because the kids would like fall to the bottom and you know there's all sorts of manky shit on the floor there.
Yeah, that's true. I never thought about that. I never thought about that. Kelly Smith, welcome back to the project. That's you. How are you?
I'm very well. Thanks thanks for having me again.
Thanks for ben had. What's going on over at you Central? Did you work today?
I did.
I went to a conference today all about fundraising and getting good people to donate their good money to good causes, and it was quite interesting.
I don't mind a good conference. I'm going to want tomorrow tomorrow morning, but I'm speaking and then I'm leaving. It's not exactly the same shout out to the people from Sidekick who are graciously having me present at their conference. Have we ever told our listeners what you do? I don't know that we have, have we? And are we allowed to?
Yeah? I've mentioned before that I work in disability. I have done for twenty three years. So I started off working as a support worker and then studied a whole range of different things and now I'm marketing manager. So that involves doing a whole range of promotional advertising, supporting, fundraising, supporting, getting all of the messaging out there so.
That people know who we are.
Yeah. Yeah, is there such a thing as what would I call it, like from the public's perception, like charity fatigue where you know, I probably get asked three or four times a week for money for something, which is cool, but yeah, it must be hard for you. You work at a special needs school, am I right?
So I work for a place that is for adults with intellectual disability called Baby House, And there's definitely a thing called donor fatigue.
So we're quite aware.
That, you know, we will be hitting up the same audience to support us on a regular basis. So how do we move ourselves out into a wider audience, and that's what today was about. So there were people there that worked for indigenous charities for instance, and so it's kind of how do you tap into an audience that might not have any connection to you at all and make them, you know, want to open their wallets and
support you. So it's yeah, it can be tricky. It's very rewarding when we do see the results and then see you know, the people that we support benefit from that, and that's you know, that's why I said in another episode that I feel really honored to do what I do, Like, I just love it. It can be hard, but it's great, it's worthwhile in the end.
Well, that's work with purpose, isn't it? Like absolutely the insection of a job and making a few bucks and I would guess probably not going to become a millionaire doing that anytime soon, But that's not why you're doing it, right, No, No.
Like I left for a little while to work somewhere else and it just had no soul to it. Like, you know, nothing against working in different areas that do you know, make a ton of cash, but this just really aligns with my values and who I am a person.
Well, good for you. I think that's about ninety percent of it when it comes to work, is finding the thing that you genuinely care about, are passionate about, and then I reckon the next important bit is being in an environment or culture a group where you like to be. Like, even if you're doing meaningful work, you kind of want to be around people you like. Otherwise it's a tough day at the office.
Absolutely, and yeah, we're very lucky with that. So there's lots of people that have been there. I mean, the organization's been around for seventy five years next year, and we've got people that have been there for thirty thirty five years, people that have been there from almost the beginning and still involved even though they're retired. So there's some really good, passionate human beings that are part of us, which is great.
When was the last time you had a job, TIF like a job job where you went to work and you were an employee.
A decade two thousand and fifteen, what was that job? I was in sales with Impact Digital to digital print company. They were a great company too, they were great people. Really, Yeah, why'd you leave to do my own thing? To be pt? Do you give this whole thing a thing I'd been like, I didn't even plan it. I just I was doing it on the side, and then I got busy and thought I kind of owed it to the situation to
give it a crack of a sales background. I was like, well, you're pretty shit salesperson if I can't make it work.
Well, that's true. So you were thirty two, right, give or take. Yeah, yeah, So how old were you when you started working?
I would have been I was probably fourteen, to be honest. I remember my first job, but my first full time job at seventeen, right.
So that's fifteen years at the grindstone or fifteen years on the front line of being an employee. That's good, it's good.
Yeah, on myyards.
You've done. You've done your time now, Kelly. The reason you are here is because you are the asker of questions and we get really nice feedback about you. And I'm not just saying that. I would say nothing if that weren't the case, but it is the case. We get nice feedback. People like you. They like your insightful questions, and you're a little bit somewhat atypical thinking you're not asking the same the same questions that I guess asked endlessly. So, yeah,
I'm glad you're back. What are we talking about. What's at the top of your agenda today?
Well, the past couple of days, the episodes I've really got a lot out of, so the episodes we've passed you with Bobby, and then this morning there was one with doctor Sam and there were kind of the concepts of don't wait until you're ready to do something, give it a crack, don't wait until you think that you're going to be perfect, until you're going to be the
best at it, just have it, go at it. And there was one the other day where Bobby was talking about public speaking, and it was just go in and aim for a four instead of the ten. And if you can get by with giving the four, then rather than letting that kind of dissuade you from giving it another crack, learn from it, grow from it, and aim
for the ten. And I was thinking, well, how does this kind of relate to people who and I put myself in this category, so it's like scared of things, unsure about themselves or the situation, maybe just lazy, full of excuses.
Or even the opposite end of that.
Spectrum where they might be incredibly high achievers and are scared of failing, so they might not venture out into giving to go. And I was just really like just wanting to really unpack that to see kind of what's that spectrum of going from being completely scared give it a go. I'm such a high achievement that i never want to fail, so I'm not going to try.
That's a really interesting question, right because I think a lot of us who are good at something. I'm not saying I'm good at anything. But so what came to mind when you were asking this to feel free to
jump in tonight? What was me when I started at Monash so doing my degree right, my doctorate and being someone who outside of that world was quite, you know, relatively competent and confident and somewhat successful and somewhat respected, and then all of a sudden, I'm in this environment where I'm none of that, and it doesn't matter who I am or what I do outside of there. Nobody neither should they have, But not one person when I arrived at Brain Park, which is the neuroscience neurocyc Lab
of Monash University. When I arrived and I sat in my little cubicle up in the back far left fucking corner like someone's granddad who was pissed and lost. Right, not one person went, oh god, Craig Harpers joined the team, and neither should they. Right. But it's like you go from you know where. Sometimes I go somewhere and three people I don't know stop me and say hello and
love your shit and thanks for that, you know. Obviously not all the time, but pretty regularly I get, you know whatever, and yeah, So now I'm in an environment where I'm probably the dumbest, I'm probably the least academic, and when I say dumbest, I'm talking in terms of what's required in that environment, the least competent, definitely the oldest, older than pretty much all of the staff, the faculty,
the professors. Yeah, and I literally in the first week was thinking, call, how do I get out of this without looking like a fucking pussy? You know? Or so there was that, and I will say even now though I still feel and We've spoken about this many times, but you know, not so much imposter syndrome, but just inadequate and less than But that kind of almost inferiority complex for me weirdly, I like because it keeps me grounded.
I don't get ahead of myself. I realize that in some rooms I'm pretty good and in other rooms I'm hopeless, well not hopeless, but somewhat inept compared to who else is in the room. So I think that's a real that can be a pitfall for people who are somewhat successful or competent or confident in a certain lane. They don't want to get in another lane because they're going to look silly. But over in this lane, in this fish bowl, I'm pretty respected and you know, kind of competent.
So I definitely think, I mean, if that's what you want to do, like I am, I'm happy to go into the room where I know I'm the the most inadequate in that room because I can only get better. And then back to your you're you know when Bobby was talking about doname for a ten, aim for a four, Well, when you think about, let's say, in relation to public speaking, and really this could relate to any skill or any any kind of thing that you want to do publicly
or not publicly. You know, it could be play the guitar, it could be run a marathon, well, if you're not currently playing the guitar, or you don't know how to, or you're not currently running, or you're not currently a public speaker, four out of ten would be a fucking great result, because I'm thinking right now, you're probably close to a zero or a one, and so, yeah, I totally agree with him, and I think that's wise, counsel, because I mean, we all have to be prepared to
start as a metaphoric zero, or as I often say, a metaphoric white belt. And the only way you become a one or two or three or five or ten, or the only way you become a yellow or blue or green or purple or black belt, depending on what system you're in, is by just showing up and getting literally or like Tiff, literally punched in the face. I mean, there was a time where she didn't know what her left hook was or a jab or a fucking uppercut.
There was time where she literally couldn't, you know, throw a combination. She didn't know the terminology, the language, like how did she how did she become a successful fighter and win stay titles? And well by starting off being shit and so this and you can't get better at what you're not doing now, if that's playing a guitar or being a public speaker, or being a boxer or building a business. When I started my first business, I was overwhelmed with all the things that I didn't know
and understand. I didn't know how to build a business, grow a business, market a business. I didn't understand lawyers. I didn't understand council regulations. I didn't understand insurance. I didn't understand people management or leadership. I fuck, I didn't know. There were one hundred things I needed to know. But how do you get good at running a business well? By being shit at the start and having a good attitude and being humble and apologizing when you need to
and unlearning when you need to. But I think that you know, we just get in our own way emotionally and psychologically because we don't want to be seen by others to be inadequate or incompetent. We don't want to be embarrassed. We don't want people to think we're done with da da da da da, And then we're fifty and this is the this is for me, that's always been the urgency, like and that's self created urgency and self created pressure, But that's how it works for me.
Like I like, I like being the best version of me. I don't mean compared to anyone else, I mean the best version of a better version of me compared to when I was fifty. And the only way that that happens is under pressure and being prepared to be scared, inadequate, embarrassed, you know, all of those things. But working through that. I know that was a very long answer.
It was No, it's good. Its good.
What I'm curious about though, And like, I completely relate to the self imposed pressure, Like I get told very often that I'm very hard on myself, and I do always you know, push.
For that more.
But what about the people? And like, so for me, listening to podcasts initially was because I was looking for something I needed an answer to, you know, why do I, you know, have anxiety from time to time and how do I then deal with that? And then discovered a few more podcasts that were really delving into more self awareness self help.
What about those people that at.
The very start and they're so scared that they don't know even how to put themselves out there, like they're so potentially withdrawn or just you know, terrified of even posting a photo of themselves, Like I've been in that position. I messaged the other the other day and I said, I put a video of myself on TikTok go me
best time. But what about those people that could be listening that are kind of like, I am so shit scared to do anything because I'm scared of being judged or looked at or seen or heard or failing, Like what would be the first step?
Yeah, okay, So being scared is normal, Being scared is healthy. Being in fact, being scared the right type of fear can save your life. So I think, you know, when we talk about being scared in our culture, it's almost seen as a negative. I think it's not a negative. It could be it depends, or it could be a positive it depends, But I think more than either of those things, it's an unavoidable part of the human experience.
So when someone says to me I'm really scared, I go, yeah, me too, And they're like, what do you mean you? I go They're like, what are you scared of? I go, well, fucking get comfortable. I'll give you my list right Because we are, I mean menace, especially because men want to be seen. Not all men, I get it, but some men want to be seen as invincible, alpha male warriors, not scared of anything. It's all bullshit. It's all bullshit,
you know. Like I've worked with I worked in I did security in pubs and clubs for three years with these big, fucking alpha male warriors. You don't think they're scared of stuff. Of course they I've worked with. I've worked with the military, I've worked with Victoria police. I've worked with a range of like different people who you would think, oh, wow, they're very, very you know, they must be close to fearless. No, they're not fearless. They're
fucking brave. They're courageous. Some of them, month by the way, more in the bouncer category than the cop or the military category, but some are. But it's like it, I think it's more about a mental shift rather than going, what is the thing that I do first? Well, I think one of the things that we do first is we go I'm scared, and that's all right. I'm going to have to do a thing that is hard, and
that's all right. But for me, it is about doing obviously, because different people have different objectives and are in different places emotionally and mentally. I mean for somebody with agrophobia or agoraphobia, people who don't want to leave the house or are very you know, maybe for them, walking to the fucking letterbox is like Tiff winning seven fights. You know,
it's all relative to the individual. And so what we're looking at is what is going to create some momentum behavioral, emotional, mental, What is going to move the needle a little bit? And sadly, not sadly, but practically. So for me to say what's the first thing, it depends like there is no there's no set first thing. Because the first thing for you might be putting a photo or a video
of yourself on tik talk. That might be something for you that's groundbreaking and cathartic and that's a real act of courage. For somebody else, they're like, what the fuck? I do that twenty six times a day. But they're terrified of puppies, you know, I don't know. And for some people, like for me, going to do a speaking gig tomorrow with like two hundred people in a room and blah blah blah blah blah, my overwhelming emotion is
excitement somebody else wouldn't get one minute sleep tonight. But it's not about the task or the skill of public speaking. It's about what that represents to you. So for me to go do that requires zero bravery. But for some people just to introduce me in a thirty second you know, read something for thirty seconds to introduce me would be overwhelmingly terrifying. So I think you know that the broad answer is lean into your fear. Do it intelligently and strategically,
not recklessly. Right. And I think when we talk about putting ourselves under pressure like you did and I did, so there's healthy pressure and unhealthy pressure. So healthy pressure is right. I'm going to walk three thousand steps a day. That's my and because currently I'm walking a thousand cool and that's non negotiable for the next fourteen days. So I've got to make that commitment. And what I'm also going to do is I'm going to talk about it
on the podcast. Hey, everyone, this is what I'm doing next fourteen days. I'm currently one. I'm going to triple it. I'm going to do three thousand. I'm going to report into Tiff and Kelly and blah blah blah, so now I'm kind of creating, and of course I cannot do it, of course, but in that way where it's something that's
not insurmountable, it's not overwhelming, it's not reckless. But I think it's like, I think it is not only important imperative that we create a level of pressure for ourselves in an intelligent way, not a reckless way, because otherwise, how the fuck can we become more resilient if we
are always trying to take pressure off ourselves. Now, sometimes sure like Tiff having an injury and going, I'm not going to put myself under the pressure of training the next three days on my body is telling that's cool. But if TIF doesn't train for the next year, because whatever,
that's different, you know. So it's it's for me. It is very much the intersection of being willing to get uncomfortable or put yourself under pressure, being strategic and intelligent about how that works, and really being willing to explore your potential. And you know, like we've said, for some people, a five minute walker is a breakthrough. So it's all
relative to the individual. But you know, if I sat with an individual and I got their story, then I could probably come up with something that I think I think might be a good starting point, and then I would unpack that with them and say, what do you think, like I think you doing this? Right? I think you doing this like you put up your hand and said,
I don't know. Six months ago when it was I said, hey, everybody on the New Project Facebook page, I'm doing a. I want to do a Q and A. Send me some cues and I'll give you some a's right, And then you went, here's my cue? Can I ask you the questions? And I went, I know, like, I don't know you well well, but I know you well enough, and I'm thinking, I reckon that would be a mix of excitement and terror for you.
Right absolutely. And it was interesting.
So I remember, like I was listening to that you either put it into a podcast or on a post. And I was at the gym, and you know, that's when I kind of get all of my courage up, because you know, I'm lifting heavy for me, and I thought, I'm just going to ask because you can only say no. But if I don't ask, then it's no anyway. And then you came back and actually said, so, Kelly's asked this, And I was on the cross trainer at this point, and You're like, give me fifteen questions, and I'm like,
challenge accepted. I'm typing away while I'm on the cross trainer, but yeah, you're right, Like it's really.
Pushed me out of my comfort zone.
And it's so nice to be on this with both of you because it gives me this opportunity to thank you both, because I don't know if you realize like how much you're both doing for me. Friends are noticing it, my partner's noticing it. Like I'm far more confident in just asking questions of my friends and people that I meet. I still wouldn't push myself out of my comfort zone
and you know, god to a stranger or anything. Like the conference today, I was still a bit like I want to talk to you, but you know, I'm still socially awkward and what if I say the wrong thing? But in general, yeah, absolutely, it's just been this kind of inching forward and it's it's yeah, for me, this has been incredibly brave. So I'm not scared of it anymore. I'm not talking it down. I'm just absolutely fucking loving it.
Yeah. Oh and she's swearing fucking ill that's progress. The other thing too, is though you know how I say, the mountain doesn't change, you change, right, the mountains, the mountain. The mountains is the same length, same same gradient, same everything.
The mountains the mountain. But the more times we go to the mountain, you know, we start we're unfit, and then we keep going back to the mountain and we build fitness and we build muscular endurance, and we understand ourselves more and we build a different relationship with the mountain and then all of a sudden, the mountain's a piece of cake, where in reality the mountain ain't any different. And it's like, in this instance public speaking, the you
project it's probably not a mountain for you. Maybe it is a mountain, maybe it's a hill. Right, but we're the same you're doing. You know, you're doing the same thing that you've done a few other times, but your level of skill and competence and confidence has evolved because you wanted to do a certain thing. You wanted to climb the metaphoric hill, even though you didn't really have
the fitness or skill or fundamentals at the start. But now you've got more knowledge, you've got more confidence, and competence, and you've got more fitness for want of a better term. Right, And that's the thing, is, like, the only real variable that you can control in a constantly over the course
of your life is yourself. Because most of the shit in the world that affects you, that you interact with, that plays some role on planet you, most of those you can influence, either not at all or only a little bit, you know. And so it's your capacity to navigate life, controlling your variables, your choices, your behaviors, your actions, your reaction, your courage, regulating your fear, leaning into your self awareness, your emotional and social and intellectual kind of intelligence. Right,
that's the thing. It's always about us. Like we think we want to build a better life, what we want to really build is a better us. Because when there's a better me in the middle of my life, my life is better. But if all of a sudden, my life practically is better. I've got five houses, I've got twenty cars, I've got all the money I need, I'm a fucking superstar. I've got a bit, you know. But I'm in the middle of all of that much better life.
In inverted commas, I'm still the overthinking, anxious, you know, terrified, whatever. Then my life experience, not my life situation, but my life experience is shit. So this is the constant for me. This is the work. The work is what do you need to do? What do you need to do more of? What do you need to do less of? I know you're scared. I know you overthink. I know you riddled periodically with self doubt and all that shit. I get it. And I'm not praising you or criticizing you. I'm just
acknowledging you. And so with all of that in mind, because, by the way, that's not gonna melt away accidentally. You're not going to accidentally fucking fall on your feet. You're not accidentally gonna succeed. You know, the fucking opportunity fairy ain't gonna knock on the door like you wouldn't have got this opportunity if you see it as an opportunity unless you initiated it.
Yeah, well, if I hadn't asked it, as I said, it would have been no anyway.
So you initiated it. You did a pretty good job. You got another opportunity, did a better job, and that's you know, I'm not saying beyond here is a fucking high wall to mark for anything, But here you go. I bet there's a bunch of people out there. You know, I'm not not fifty percent, but there'd be a percentage of people listening to this thinking I wish I fucking asked that question. I'd love to be on harps of show and ask him stuff. But nobody did. Nobody did you did?
Well, you know what's going to happen tilmorrow week?
No? No, no, too late, the gates closed. We've already got Kelly, although she could be shipped for the rest of the show, so stand by. No pressure, Yeah, no pressure, don't fuck it up, don't jeez all right, where else did you want to go? That was good. That was a good start. I liked it.
So from this morning's episode, and I did actually take notes this time.
So you were talking about having the tools.
To deal with like emotional regulation and anxiety and things like that, and your comment was, it doesn't matter what you know about all of that when you're in the middle of feeling emotionally terrible, and that you know, I realized that the past couple of times that I've spoken to you both, I've been quite capable of talking about, you know, seeing a shrink and dealing with anxiety across my life. And that's been because it hasn't been overly present at the time, and then the past couple of
weeks it's been it's been there. So I had this kind of big cause of uncertainty and anxiety removed, and I'm like, great, you know, happy days.
I can kind of float through this now.
But it kind of gave way to this space in my brain, in my mind that all of these little things started popping up, going, hey, now I'm going to I'm going to be the cause of your anxiety, and just you know, this kind of spiral.
It's been fun.
But yeah, just to really hit home when you said it doesn't matter what you know, when you're in the middle of it, all of that like it kind of drops away. And so that to me was something I thought, well, let's have a bit of a chat about that.
Yeah, so I wouldn't say it doesn't matter, but I'm saying sometimes when you're in the motion, in the middle of an emotional fucking whirlpool, right, Not that anyone on this call, Tiffany Ankle gets in that, No, not at all. I mean, there have been more than five times where I have said to Tiff, right, and by the way, TIFFs made fucking phenomenal progress, and she's a champ in
her own right. But there's been times when we've been talking and I've said to you, I've said, Okay, right now is the time when all of the shit that we talk about theoretically needs to be put into practice, you know where. And I'm the same. It's like we all do this, like do I ever lose my shit? Well, not in an angry way, but where I'm in a bit of an emotional whatever, and we all get in it and I know what I should be doing, but in that emotional state, sometimes I can't fucking do it.
I probably can, but in that moment. Now, fortunately that's not as many times as it used to be. But I think the human experience is that, you know, like there are like I would know, I need to be careful how I say this, and I put myself in
this group. I know at least fifty personal trainers who know how to eat, know how to train, know how to manage their body, know pretty much how to make good decisions, all of that, But when they're in a certain emotional place, they'll eat their own body weight in shit, despite the fact that they're quite educated, quite knowledgeable, right, And so there are times when in the middle of an emotional whatever, we will reach for something or do
something even though we know it's not the right thing to do. Like, we have the intellectual knowledge, but the emotion sometimes overwhelms us. Not all the time, but there are definitely times when we do things that we know we shouldn't do, and that is driven by emotion, not logic and not reason in the moment, and I think that's just, you know, that's part of the human experience.
But yeah, there are sometimes when you're really really sad or really lonely or really anxious, where you're being a certain way that you know you don't have to be that, but in a state of emotional overwhelm, it's like, yeah, stick your self, help up your ass. I'm just in this moment now, And I don't you know, if that's regular, that's a problem, but I just think that I think that's everybody. I think we need to give ourselves a pass sometimes.
Yeah, And that's actually something that I've referenced my shrink a few times.
But she said It's.
Quite common that people who are in the middle of a lot of self help and you know, relying on what she calls like the toolbox, that they almost have like an exhaustion from doing that. And you just have to kind of have that time out to say, you know what, I'm doing the work, but it's okay to not do all of the work today.
Yeah, I call them fuck all days. I've done an episode on it, and I've done posts on you know, have a fuck all day? Do fuck all think about fuck all? You know, I mean, done it your own body weight in pizza, probably, but take your foot off the gas a little bit. Maybe. Yeah, I definitely think that like the relentless, obsessive ptute of perfection or improvement,
I don't think that's a good thing. I think there's got to be wings and roundabouts, and I think, you know, I think if most of the time you're doing mostly good things for your body, for your brain, for your relationships, for your life, then you're probably doing better than most.
And it ain't a competition. But yeah, I think if you're being honest and brave and self aware, you know, self regulation for humans is tough, and like even with I mean, you think about Tiff, who's spoken very openly and bravely about, you know, perimenopause over the last i don't know, six months or more. Jump in tip five fuck any of this up. But I've kind of been interested in, you know, like I'm a dude, right, so
we don't. I mean, men have something that's in the ballpark called andropause, but definitely women have, in my opinion, a much harder time. But you know that's I mean, that is a hormonal and physiological fucking cess. But it's also an emotional shit fest, isn't it.
TIF I was going to say before, the whole idea of this is not logic either. Like when we're talking about so you might be talking about anxiety, but when I think about like some of the conversation's ups and I have, it would be more an emotional trigger. And I remember years ago going home to Tazzy and talking about a time where I just got triggered around mum
and I was in the middle of that. I was just a petulant little asshole there and I couldn't put my finger on why, but something in the environment made me switch to that place, and I knew I was being a little pig, and I knew I was sorry, and as soon as I got away from her, I'd be able to just reach out and go, I'm really sorry. I was being a dick. But in that moment, even what though I was aware of it, my body was
in that state. And that's not logic, and that takes time to shift, and the time gets closer and closer between it happening and us being able to come back. Like the CONVERSATIONSHAPS and I have now, I sat in spaces where I would get emotionally I was going to say the word we don't say anymore in the world, emotionally stilted, and I would know that I've had emotions
and I couldn't interact the way I wanted. But I also knew that they weren't true and that they weren't but I didn't know why they were happening, and I had to figure them out, and I was like, I don't know how to figure them out, Like I don't know what to say to you. I have I feel like this, but it's not your fault, but it's also not mine because I'm not choosing it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think like I think sometimes with I mean, you know, Tif and I are friends, of course, but it's been a mental mentee relationship in you know, some ways for a long time. And so I think and there'd been moments in there our relationship that have been fucking messy, you know, not horrendous, but like a bit clunky, haven't they a bit lumpy and bumpy?
Right? Yeah?
And and miscommunication from the two fucking communicators, and you know, and definitely Tiff was not always the problem, like equally me at least, you know, so it is. I just think that these like what we're doing right now is just it's so healthy and it's so great to be able to go, Yeah, what part of the problem, what did I do? Like obviously, when I've pissed Tiff off, which I have, or she's pissed me off, which she has, but we're not talking about in a really destructive way.
But it's never been intentional on either way, on either part. Right, it's just like, oh you did this, I got annoyed, and I'm like, I didn't even know. I didn't even know. It's not like I was, I can't, I'm like I just was somehow was though, you know, But then and this is again, this is and I'm sorry for fucking boring anyone. By the way, kel will go to six thirty, not six twenty as planned. But will you know when
you open this kind of door? But and I don't mean in a bullshit way on a fucking podcast where you're like, oh yeah, sure I do that. Not I mean really in the real world, in real life, when you genuinely try to understand someone else, not agree with them, not necessarily endorse their ideas, but you try to understand, you try to look through their window. And I reckon, I'm I don't think I'm ace at it, but I'm pretty good at it. Like with Tiff, I know TIFF's
love language. I know sometimes she'll send me a message about something, doesn't matter what it is, and I'll answer genuinely. I'll also answer in a way that I know will make her feel good and encourage her, because I want to encourage her. Right and and but being able to you know, like I I somebody said to me yesterday like something like, you've always been intimidating, right, and they they this is a lady I used to train, right, and I used to train a whole family, and she goes, oh, no,
we love you. The whole family loves you. In fact, they came to me to help them solve quite a big problem, right, And I used to I haven't done anything with that family for the problem challenge, let's call it challenge. But anyway, shid oh no, but we're all fucking scared of you, but we love you, right, And I'm like, it's so funny. I like, I've never been
anything but nice to them. But they would they would, you know, when I would say do this, they would go okay, Like and because when I train people, as Tiff knows, I'm very look so in this room, in this scenario, I'm in charge and you're not right. So it doesn't mean you don't matter, doesn't mean I don't care what you think. But if you want to be coached by me, then be coached. Like, don't come in here and argue like, if you want to train yourself,
fucking knock yourself out. But if you want me to train you, here's what happens. I tell you what to do for an hour, you give me money, and then fuck off. That's the system. So we're not having a conversation, right, Oh, it's just dawning on me. Why I'm intimidating. No, but I mean that. I mean that in a fun way, like we always had fun, We always laugh, we always talk shit. But anyway, I don't know where the fuck I was going with that. But oh, we'll talk about emotions.
I've lost my way kel take over. Yeah, it is to get a better host.
I'm too intimidated.
Now what you were saying just befoughtif and not to you know, completely bypass your training tactics of scaring the shit out of people, Craig.
But when you're in the moment of.
Like an emotional regression, which is kind of what I equate it to, and you kin't of you're going, I know that this isn't how I want to be. I know that I've got the tools to literally outthink this, but there's a part of me that is so overwhelming in the moment.
I find that quite difficult.
And then I'll just brate myself for it afterwards, going, you know what, You've come so far, and you've done all this work and you know better, and this isn't who you want to be or where you want to go. Why did you let this happen? And Yeah, I find that still to be quite challenging.
I've talked about once, like I think like they're hurt buttons right, and for me recognizing, okay, what like what I need? What did I need? Or do I need? What is a part of me need? Once we went I went to dinner.
With Dad and.
We got our curry and they didn't bring the rice and we'd already eat so no, I'm not hungry because we've already eaten our entrees and we're about five minutes pass us. They don't bring the rice, and Dad's over here for a holiday, and I just go bang and I'm wild and I can't even keep talking because I'm like, I don't know why it's so hard just to get the rice out of the rice warm it's over there. It was my I don't matter button. And I talked about it with doctor Bill and he's like, well, what
did you need to know? I'm like, well, I hardly think that the waitress needs to deal with my emotional ineptity.
But then a few days.
Later I was like, okay, but I need to do something that tells whatever part of me needed to be seen to they needed to be seen, Like I'm just you don't have to yell at them, but maybe just ask for the rights or address it in some way. So I think unpacking it and going what is what might the thing be, and what might I need? And if it happens next time, what might some one thing be that I could try? Because it happens less now
every time someone was late Harps. If Harps didn't show up until two minutes before a guest arrived on the podcast in the early days, that was most of my issue back then. And I because I was like, oh, he doesn't want to talk to me. I'm just a cog in the machine. He doesn't even like he just turns up for that. You know. I'm here, I'm excited, I'm finally out of the bamboo and I'm gone on the typ podcast just like you are. And he'd rock in five minutes before because he's just come out of
a bloody meeting. But my story was and I couldn't pull myself out of that nacky little funk.
I've never told Harps.
That that's so interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah, the funny thing was I was actually avoiding you, so that's that's fair. Of course I wasn't that's that is so interesting. Oh wow, hell, I've got a question for you. Sure, why do you want to do this? Like, yeah, why do you want to? I'm glad you are by the way, you're good at it, and there's certainly adding value, Like what is it that you get from doing this?
I really enjoy it, And.
There's I've always felt this need to be creative, and I've always been so I you know, my overall goal I would like to write, and I do write, but I feel like there's a novel like inside of me somewhere. But I'm also very impatient. So the time that it takes to sit and write a novel, as you know, to write a book, like you're giving up and dedicating so much time. Well you're not giving up. You're working towards something, and you're dedicating so much time towards something
that you really want. But I am incredibly impatient, and so I've been looking for other avenues of well, how can I be creative?
That's almost like it's.
Instant, But then with this it's been I'm finding that personally it's a lot of growth, Like I feel for the first time probably ever, a bit of confidence and I'm not saying that, you know, in any kind of egotistical you know, here's my head swelling kind of way.
But I do feel a bit of confidence and that's nice, and it's it's allowing me to work towards where I want to be and who I want to be, which I'm feeling is like it's a new version of me, and potentially it was always there, but I've always been far too scared to embrace or work towards it.
So yeah, like what's the long game for you? Like, is there an end goal or a long game, or it's just to have the experience and have some fun and develop some skills and gain some insight, or is there a bigger picture goal.
At the moment, I'm really enjoying the experience and I've been to two conferences this year and watch the people on stage, and for the first time ever, I've thought that could potentially be me, Like I could maybe do that. So that's I think the next challenge that I'll set for myself. I've got a presentation at work next week to the senior leaders, and that's my first kind of you know obstacle of getting up and you know, presenting my work too. I think it's about six people, and I'm.
Not overly scared of that.
It's still kind of like, oh shit, well, you know, it's the focus will be on me, so that's a little bit terrifying. But No, today I was watching the presenter and she was incredible. She just had this really nice pace. She was very intelligent and very good at
her job. She didn't actively say, hey, I'm good at my job, but in the way that she was speaking and what she was presenting, you could very clearly see that, and I thought, you know, maybe one day it could be could be me and you know, my colleagues on that stage presenting work that we've done, because I think we do good work for good people and it'd be great to share that.
Yeah, definitely. I Mean, here's the thing about speakers, like I've seen, I've probably seen I don't know how many, but a lot of speakers on stages because I go, you know, like tomorrow, I'll see another speaker or two that I've never seen and never met, and so I'm constantly being exposed to people who get on stage and talk for a living. And the beauty of it is there are so many different kinds of humans who get up there who was totally different from the person before,
and they're both good. It's like they're like, I have my way of doing things, and depending on the day, usually i'm somewhere between oh, not terrible and okay, And then you get up someone else who's just the opposite of me, and they're real good like but they don't they're not a storyteller, they're not cheeky, they don't walk to the edge of the stage and engage the audience. They don't do all the bullshit I do. But they're mesmerizing, you know. That's the beauty is there's no it's like,
there's no best kind of art. There's just a myriad of art. You know. That's not like, oh, what's the best music? You go like, that's it dumb because there's so many different kinds of music that are beautiful. And I think, yeah, that's exactly it. The Tiff just pointed to the box of the album by Mark Simour, of which she's proudly adorning the front best music what self esteem issues? None? But I love that. But yeah, and I think public speaking is for me, it's much more
of a creative process, well for me anyway. Right. It's like the intersection of information, creativity, and even entertainment. You know where you've got to you don't have to. But I always think, Okay, so I know some stuff I've got to talk tomorrow. For now, I've got to talk from nine to ten to ten ten in the morning. Opening keynote, I go, sure, So I know a lot of stuff. You know, well, of all there is to know,
I know fuck all. But I know more than enough to talk for an hour, and I know some stuff that's pretty fascinating and interesting. But the real question is can I get up there with great energy, build an experience, read the room, create connection, tell a funny story, share some great ideas and information, and maybe a bit of science and maybe a bit of oh fuck, listen to those statistics, maybe a bit of that, And then can I create something that then becomes a catalyst for action
and real world results. Like that's how I think about it, whereas a lot of people completely understandably would be can I get up there and say what I've got to say without fucking it up? Like that's that's the extent of there, which you know, I get it, I get it, But over time you just become you know, I know I can get up and talk for an now that's not the issue. I want it to be great for them though, you know, like my goal is when I finish, my main goal is that they go that was great.
He's great. I would like to hear him again. That's it, you know, in terms of my personal goals, But in terms of goals for them, I hope that it opens a door on something that for them is potentially transformational moving forward. You know.
Oh yeah, I've got a question. Do you prefer to be the opening or closing keynote?
Definitely opening?
Why?
Yeah, because everyone's in their best energy, everyone's tired at the end of the day, start of the day, everyone's a bit pumped. And for me anyway, like I like being the opening keynote, setting up the day, you know, and hopefully creating a good experience out of the gate for people. But having said that, I'm I'll talk anywhere. Like sometimes I I would the worst spot to speak, well, I'm going to let you guess when's the worst time of day to speak as a speaker. There's actually, as
a professional speaker, there's two times. One you definitely don't want to fucking speak. It's a fucking nightmare. The other one is it's not that bad, but it's you know, it's close. So what do you what do you think? People never think about this understandably.
Well, having been just at a conference today, I would dare say before or after lunch?
Yes, yeah, so after lunch, because people are people's brain function goes down after they eat. They're a bit more tired, they're a bit more dopey, they're a bit more laid back, they're not you know. So, but before lunch also is not great. After lunch, I mean, it is what it is, you know, But I try and bring if I do
an after lunch thing, I'm very mindful of that. The worst ever is talking during a dinner where they have a dinner and you are the speaker, and while you are speaking, there are fucking people walking around the room handing out dinners, and people at table going, Kelly, can you pass me the salt tiff? How's the chicken? What's it? And fucking Harps is up there trying to inspire the masses that are fucking preoccupied with their fucking chicken parma or whatever it is.
Well, you ain't no what I feel it halps, So.
I say, definitely, I'd tell you.
What I know where my attention would be.
Kell. Have you got one quick last question or are we done and dusted up to you? I'm good either way.
One quick last question and this is going back to what we were talking about earlier.
I'm wondering, and it's just for both of you.
Is there something that you're scared of at the moment that you're going to do anyway?
Oh scared, I'm I'm just for me, like the next few months of my I apologize for talking about it, but it's just what's preoccupying my life at the moment, just my PhD, like handing in. I'm scared, like I've got to submit in a few months, which is handing all my work. Yeah, so it's I'm not scared terrified, but I'm like, oh, this is this is And every time I do something i'm I feel like obviously I'm not,
but I feel like I'm out of my depth. And but the funny thing is, in terms of my area of research, you know, metacognition, metaperception, you know, meta accuracy, all that kind of understanding how others think theory of mind and understanding how others think about us met a perception. There's probably not a lot of people in Australia that a lot more about it than me, to be honest, just because I've just studied it for six years straight.
But I you know, but I still feel like I'm not the academic that all the others are, you know. So there's that. But I'll plow on, tiff, what about you once?
I'm doing a speaking course, and speaking always puts me in a bit of a tears. I'm always quite nervous beforehand, as Harpers as well aware, but love it. But this is scary because within it, I've had to create frameworks and try things that aren't the way I do things. And I want to do that to its entirety before I bin any of it just because it's not me,
just because it's not the way I work. So that's scary because hopefully, hopefully I'll be able to do it as a speaker at the end of year event, because a small number of us will be which means I'll be doing that in front of a hundreds of people, and I will be really scared of that.
You know. What's the good thing about that? Forew I reckon is because as you so you have you have a certain way of presenting, and you are a storyteller. You're cheeky, you're a bit freestyle, you're a bit loosey goosey, and they're going, yeah, we want you to do the opposite of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we want you to leave that room and come into this room where, yeah, you can still tell your stories and stuff, but it's quite formulaic, it's quite structured, it's quite process driven.
You know.
It's yeah, I completely and I've said to you, I think it's even if you even if you only take or incorporate a little bit of that, eventually, you know, it's still great to learn another way because there'll be stuff that you do take out of that that becomes intertwined with your normal operating system in that space.
Well, there's stuff that's come from it that even if I if I try it and then I go, I don't like speaking in that way, I'm going back to how I've always done it. I've already learned stuff that are transferable skills. It's changed the whole learning and content development process for me. And I think that happens when we do things that scare us. They always change us in ways we don't expect or think, and it's stepping
into scary stuff that gives us those things. And when we don't do what we miss out.
M Hey, before we go. This is completely fucking random and left field to everything we've spoken about. So Nova asked me to do a ad for the U Project for Radio right, there's already one that circulates. So they said, do you want to because we're gonna we're going to advertise your show across I think smooth and over, which I think is the say I should fucking know, shouldn't I? Yeah,
do better? Harps shout out to the sponsors, of course, who I love the shows, the stations anyway, they said, So I wrote a new ad for today which they haven't got yet. So I want to read it to you, and I want you to tell me if it's shit or okay, you ready? I could fuck it up. I'm Craig Harper, host of The You Project, one of Australia's longest running podcasts, exploring the wonders and weirdness of human behavior, mind, body, emotion, all the human stuff. Unlike some of the more self
helpy magic Pilly Quick FIXI Psychobabbly Podcasts. We're a little more. Roll up your sleeves, stop wasting your potential, get your ship together, and stop waiting for the mystical, magical right time. And yes, I said ship, You're welcome the You Project. Take a listen. What do you think? I love it?
That's great?
Is it okay?
Yeah?
You know, you know when you look at your own ship and you're like, I think that's okay, but it could be fucking terrible. Oh good, Now, do you two actually like it or you're just being nice to me.
I'm just being nice on air.
It's absolutely rid us awful.
Fucking Tucker. All right, Well back in therapy for fat so Tiff get stuffed and Kel that's your last episode. Fuck you both. All right, Thanks everyone that's been to you project. Nah, just kidding, just kidding. Thanks Kel. That was great. You were great. Tiff, you were not quite as great, but you're good.
You know my buttons now.
But you're both better than me, so that's the main thing. All Right, we'll talk off air, but Kelly, thank you, Tiff, thank
You, thank you, thank you.