Hi, good a team. It's Dr Jody and Craig Athny Harper, It's the You Project, it's us, it's you, and I'm a bloody idiot. I tell you why I'm a bloody idiot. Put my hand up. I'm throwing myself under the bus because Dr Jody and I just did a fabulous five minutes or so of broadcasting without actually recording it because Fatty harps Jumbo over here, who's in charge of the buttons, didn't push the go button. Dr Jody, I apologize, welcome back again.
Oh do you know what, Craig, it's so comforting for all of us to know how many podcast episodes have you recorded and that you have made a small mistake, and thankfully we realized very soon and very early on. So I am great, and I know what you're gonna ask me, and I didn't the first time round, so I'm better prepared.
Well, can I tell you one way worse than you and me? Which was about four minutes of wasted time? But then was it? Maybe it was beautiful, But I interviewed the hesitant of the Hawthorne Footy Club whole interview. I mean, also, it's not like he's got a lot of free time, Andy Gowers. It's not like, oh, he's got heaps of free time because he works full time in another capacity. Also is the president of Hawthorne Footy Club.
Me fifty minutes, I was about fifty minutes until fifty five minute podcast and I realized, and I'm like, so do I make mistakes? Well, that's the worst one I've made in the history of the U Project. Not that you're not a big deal, but at least wasted. At least I wasted four minutes of your life, not fifty. All right. So for those of you who haven't met doctor Jodi among well, you give our newbies, you give them a snapshot of who you are, rather than me, do it?
Oh, Craig Okay, well hello, and it's lovely to be yeah, spending some time I'm with you if you haven't met me before. I was just saying to Craig, I was so anxious the first time I was a guest, and I've lost count. So I've been a guest on and
off over the last few years. So I am I guess my life's work is around helping people to understand anxiety, to know that it is something that we can do many things to dial down, settle down, settle ourselves, understand it, cope with it more than cope with it, support other people, and that I do that as a professional speaker in workplaces and schools. I have a weekly podcast, Well Hello Anxiety, and I have written two books, two anxiety books, one for parents and one for anxious mums. So I live
with it. It's very much a part of my life. And I'm medicated for my anxiety. So I feel like I have a really good handle on what it's like to live with it, and also all of the kind of the professional side of what we can do about it to live a really good life, even if it's part of it. Yeah. So that's me in a.
Nutshell perfect And I've done something which I never do. I've prepared for a chat. And I'll tell you why I prepared because I feel like with doctor Jodi, we just well, I just well, No, I mean, I think we get good feedback, so it must not be terrible. But I think I could probably use your knowledge and your skills and your experience and your understanding of anxiety and all of the intersecting issues and variables in a more productive way. Than I have. So today we're going
to be grown up. So I'm going to actually ask you grown up questions that might be of value that people can go, oh cool, well that's really good to know. That makes me less stressed, or that's good to know I might try that, or I didn't know that. That's
a revelation. So and every time I talk to you, you know, and I've been around people with mental health issues and people who have struggled, and I've had my own little moments in time, but every time I talk to you, every time I learn it at least one new thing. So so I'm very grateful to you. All Right, now you know what question one is, but I'm going to ask it again for the because of course of
our false start everyone. So question one is, what is something about anxiety that most people either get wrong or don't understand?
Well let me think, no, I know the answer is one. So the thing about it, So first and foremost, I just want to say that like anxiety, living with it, it can be so painful and so debilitating, and like I've been there, and what I didn't understand at the beginning, and what I really love to help people sort of be clear about with anxiety is it it's you know, essentially in the brain there's a threat that has been detected around us. For some reason, when we feel anxious,
we don't feel safe. It could be because we're doing something really important like a job into or we could be doing something that other people find easy, like even just picking up the phone and making a phone call. So anxiety can show up for different people in different ways. But I think the thing I want most people to understand that is often misunderstood is that it's not something that we can eliminate from our lives. It's something that
is there to keep us safe. But just our brain constantly going into that survival mode of I detect a threat, your life is in danger means that often our anxiety is really overreacting and overprotective to what's happening for us. We can't get rid of it because it is there to keep us safe. It's our brain sort of alarm system.
But what we can do is we can live an amazing life by getting a good understanding what's happening, having a willingness to turn around and have a little look at your anxiety and get to know it a bit better and understand it and sort of end the struggle. One of the things I love to say is imagine you're in a tug of war with your anxiety. You'd kind of like letting go of the rope. Anxiety is
still there, you're just dropping the struggles. So I guess, you know, one of the things that I think is misunderstood is that you know, we can wait for it to go to do the things we want to do. And another thing, too, is that some people think that just time will help heal it. But time actually doesn't heal anxiety unless you're doing certain things to move it to the background, and often it gets worse if it's left unaddressed.
I feel like with everything you know, everything from anxiety to nut allergies to how we respond to weight training, to you know, our physiological response to being in a small room, or I feel like it's different for different people. Two, It's like anxiety manifests differently and at different levels, and
is triggered by different things in different people. Obviously, So my question is like, for example, while you say we'll always probably deal with anxiety on a level, but isn't it possible that the thing that used to give me anxiety, say public speaking doesn't anymore.
Yes, yeah, you can. Absolutely, Yeah, that's a really good question. And I was just thinking while you were talking there was something I wanted to add. Absolutely, there's no question that we can manage it. We can settle it, and we can we can learn to live with it in a way that it doesn't stand in the way of us doing those things. But the only way forward is through. And what I overlooked saying before, is it anxiety show
up around the things that we care about. So, like you and me, we stand in front of groups of hundreds or over a thousand people in a room with a microphone. And I don't know about you, but I mean I don't get so anxious I can't do what I want to do, but I still feel anxious because I care about it. You know, anytime you're doing something that's important, it's a very natural thing to feel. So
we can settle it down. And I often say we dial it down because we don't want it to overwhelm us, because when it overwhelms us, we can't actually think and use the part of our brain we often need to to perform well in the situations we are anxious about yes, so.
Yeah, true. You know what's interesting as you were saying that, as you're talking about you and doctor Jody gets on stage and talks to groups and companies and organizations like me, and yeah, I'm you and I probably similar in that if I've got I've got a bunch of gigs coming up, and some of them are really big, and my overwhelming
emotion is excitement. Right. However, as we're recording this, it's eleven seventeen and at two o'clock today, so in less than three hours, I've got a zoom meeting with my senior academic supervisors where I've got to talk and give them a bit of a debrief on where I'm at with the progress of my what they call project right, which is your PhD. Right, that me talking to them two or three depends on who shows up. Where I've got a talk for twenty thirty minutes to tell them
where I'm at, what I'm doing. Da Da da da da. That gives me not overwhelming but low level anxiety where I'm worried. Now, that's me talking to two or three people on Zoom versus Hey, Harps, you're in the Grand Ballroom at the Hiatt or whatever, and I'm like, what zero zero fear just fun just can't wait, just fucking let me out there. So it is funny, like the same the same activity in a different setting or context or for a different reason. So yeah, it is interesting.
Like when I've done my you know what they call milestones, academic milestones where you stand in front of board, you and I have spoken about. I didn't know I could be so scared. It's so funny. Look, because I think I don't get scared of much, and in my general life, I don't. I get scared about mom and dad dying a bit. I don't overthink it. But I'm like, yeah, I'm not excited about that when I think about things
that I'm fearful of. But then when I started doing these things where I'm definitely absolutely the dumbest person in the room in this conversation, and then you think, oh, they're all smarter than me, they're all better than me, they're all more academic than me, they've all got more miles on the clock than me. Ah, for sure, I'll be found out, you know. So yeah, that's an maybe that's a variable in there.
Oh it's and it speaks to the fact that you care very very deeply. Of course you do. This is huge, like what you're undertaking doing completing a PhD. Is it. It's not for the faint hearted. It's very very stressful and a huge, huge part of the meetings that you're having is that the outcome of this goal that you've set for yourself, you know, is at every step where you have these milestones, you have these meetings. It's there's that uncertainty about the outcome versus the first time you're
on stage. I mean, I don't know like I think when I first started, Like it's like anything, we're more anxious. But the more experience we get and the more predictable and experience becomes, the less anxious we're going to feel about it. And public speaking is unpredictable because like you and me, we don't don't have notes in our hands. We're just you know, talking, But we have the confidence in ourselves and we have the experience under our belt that I've done this before, I can do it again.
And we're anxious because well I'm anxious because number one, I have an anxiety disorder. But too it's a mix of anxiety and excitement. But the circumstances that you're under for this meeting today. It's perfectly natural that you feel
that way. And I you know, once you've once you've submitted and you've passed, and if you have a meeting, I imagine your anxiety will be a lot less because the outcome is known and the novelty, the questions, the uncertainty can can really be very threatening to our brain because the brain's like, well, I don't know what's happening here. Let's just put you on high alert because this feels dangerous.
Lot. All right, I'm very bad at asking questions. I've got twenty questions. I've asked one, right, we definitely won't get through twenty. Our question two is how do we tell the difference between normal, garden variety worry and a clinical anxiety disorder? Like, what's the Yeah, how do we how do we know the difference?
Yeah, So the worry being a symptom of anxiety and a very prevalent symptom of anxiety. Lots of worries are a part of the picture, as well as lots of bodily symptoms. So really, what what we want to look at is fundamentally and there are there are checklists, and there are diagnostic tools, of course, but fundamentally, is it getting in the way of daily life? You know, is it frequent? Is it extreme? And is it stopping you the person from being able to do the things that
you want to do. Is it stopping you from saying yes to catching up with some old friends that are you know, a reunion dinner for for your high school buddies, or is it stopping you from putting your hand up for that opportunity at work that's a step out of your comfort zone, It's a step up a level, and you're not sure of whether or not you'd be successful.
You know, is it stopping you from being able to be present with your children because your mind is us We're focusing on things that may never happen, and we know from the research they're unlikely to happen. And so yeah, I think normal everyday anxiety will come and go with
a stressful situation. And you know, my daughter recently had a job interview for a fast food restaurant and she had a job interview sit down with a manager and she had to answer questions about how does the previous experience you've had as a gymnastics coach and a babysitter. How what have you learned and how does that translate to you know, you potentially being a good candidate here, and that will create anxiety when you know you've got
the interview, you'll probably be during it. But when it's over, it settles down. That's normal, all.
Right, we're plowing on, Doc, and you're doing bloody great. Question three, like us like grown ups, asking and answering. Can you give us a snapshot of what's actually happening in someone's brain and body in the middle of a moment of anxiety or like an episode from want of a better Like what's happening in their brain, what's happening in their body? Just so people might be able to identify or relate.
Oh I love these questions, Craig So, yes, absolutely. So. Basically, if we think about so we think about five senses. We think about our five senses, but we actually have other senses, and one of them is called neuroception, and that is the sense that is essentially scanning our environment all the time. So essentially we're looking out for cues of danger and safety wherever we go, wherever we are, and that could be from people, It could be from
the environment. It just could be from unexpected sounds, noises, smells. So there's a part of our brain that is taking in that information and determining very very quickly whether we're safe or we're not. If we are in an environment that is detected determined to be unsafe for whatever reason, then it activates the stress response in the body. Because the brain doesn't know the difference between literally sitting down and opening up an email from your boss that says, hey,
I needed to talk to you after lunch. That feels threatening because well, what do they want to talk to me about? What have I done wrong? All of the what if questions come. That is very activating because it feels threatening because we don't know what's going to happen. The activation is same as if you were going down the street to get your coffee and you're on your phone and you're nearly step in front of a cart. The brain doesn't know the difference between a real threat
to safety and one that's imagined or perceived. So the threat system is activated and through a series of changes that affect adrenaline, belief and activation of the sympathetic nervous system. So that's the branch of our nervous system that really helps us respond in times of stress. We get a whole lot of physical changes so that the changes in essence are to power up our bodies so that we can fight or flee. And those changes people will know
very well. Racing heart sometimes pins and needles in the arms and legs, will have changes to our breathing, will have blood shunted from our dart to our arms and legs. We can run, we can fight, we can defend ourselves, we can keep ourselves safe, we can have changes to our vision. And you know, essentially all of these different physiological changes are there because our brain thinks we are in you know, danger of life threatening danger, and we
need to be able to move quickly. So the thing about anxiety is that so that's when the stress response is activated. We feel all of this anxiety will activate that response. Just lying in bed at night and thinking, like our daughter recently got a concussion, harps. You knew about that, and there's a concussion. But like I'm lying in bed at night and I put my head on the pillow that are ready to go to sleep, and if my mind drifts to do you hope she's going
to be okay. I wonder, really what the outcome of this kick to the head at football is going to be. Just thinking about that will activate that whole response, even though I'm safe, tucked in electric blanket on, snuggled down and warm. That's what gets activated. And so that's really
what's happening in the brain and the body. And we often have a lot of worry because the brain is trying to understand the problem and worrying about what the outcome will be and trying to find some certainty around the situation that triggered the anxiety in the first place.
So here's me, Craiger, find some of that. If I get it wrong, stop me. But I feel like we're talking about a physiological response. So elevated blood pressure, breathing, adrenaline, cortisol, sympathetic nervous system, all of these things happening, blood going to your limbs, all that, all these physical changes physiology, which might be completely turned on or activated for one of a better term, by a non physical thing, which is an idea. The idea is, oh my god, something
bad's going to happen. Now, let's just say in this story that I'm talking about nothing bad is going to happen, not in the foreseeable future. It's just a thought. So our body doesn't respond to what's real. It responds to the perception or the idea. Now, if I'm being like this sounds self defeating and self loathing. But in many ways, I am stressing. I am creating anxiety for me when anxiety or all this elevation of physiology is not at all required by the reality of the situation. So I
make me stressed. I make me anxious via my stories. Now, one, if that's true, can we then, like mitigate that somewhat by changing our stories or what we pay attention to.
Absolutely we can, And there are skills and practices that we can learn. And this gets back to what we were talking about at the beginning, that you can There's so much that we can do. It is a treatable mental illness, if you like. I don't usually like to call it that psychological challenge. It's treatable. We can't change. We can dial down the sensitivity of the alarm in our brain if you like, through certain practices like meditation.
But the way we think can absolutely change the way that our body will respond to things that might previously have been very, very triggering and caused a full blown physiological response. Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Yeah, wow, Yeah, I'm always curiosity, curiosity, I'm always curious around, you know, thinking about thinking, metacognition, and even with my own you know, I have a thought, you know, sometimes you have just fucking weird thought.
Oh my idea.
I'm like, I'm so glad no one lives in my head because that is a weird thought, right, But then to lean into that and go, you were one. That's weird too. I'm glad I can recognize its weirdness. But three, where does that come from? Like? What is that about?
What is that? You know, when you start to get curious about how you think and you start to question your stories rather than automatically believe them, like that's a powerful kind of pause button to go yeah, yeah, I yeah, I am a piece of shit and then like, well, hang on, no, that's a story. The story is I'm a piece of shit. I'm unlovable, I'm not this, I'm not that enough, I'm too much of that. All right, let's just hit the pause button. Is it possible that
that stuff's not true? Or some of it's not true, Is it possible? You know, then you start to reframe, you know, go on.
It doesn't actually matter if it's true or not, because some of the stuff we are going to think is going to be true, and some of the stuff we're going to think is going to be false. What matters is what we are thinking about helpful And it's a very very different way of looking at it. But it's hard to sort of cut through the noise, you know, because our minds will race away and all of a sudden,
our mind's drifted. It's like when we're reading a book and we realize I have not read the last two pages. We recognize, okay, I've drifted. My attention is on something else. Have I put the bins out? That was the latest thing? You know, Like obviously my mind just went to, oh, the bins, you know, Cozy and company in bed and we've got a couple of hundred meter walk to put the bins out. Anyway, so we end up moving away from the present moment and we can get caught up
in that. So we need to develop the skills to be more present of mind and when we can notice what we're thinking, Like you say, think about what we're thinking. One of the things I think I've shared before here, but really so worthwhile to share again. There's a very powerful strategy from the behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy. And this was a game changer for me because we do get very caught up in is it true or not?
And then when we believe something's true, like you've got a mole on your arm and you think it's skin cancer that you know, the belief around that drives that sick feeling in that anxiety response. So what you can do is say, all right, you know, I'll use the freckle as the example. I'm having the thought that this this skin spot is cancerous. So I I've already stopped. I'm not spiraling anymore that oh my gosh, this is skin cancer and I'm going to die next week. Okay,
I notice I'm having this thought about it. And then the next thing, the next step is it helpful? Well, actually, you know what that is something helpful to worry about. We should worry about because it could be a problem. How about we do something next. But I'm you know, I'm stupid, i can't do it. I'm not good enough. You know, they're so painful. They're so painful, those thoughts. But when we say that I'm having that, I'm noticing, I'm thinking I'm not good enough? Is that helpful? Well, no,
it's actually not. So what can I do next that would be helpful instead?
Yeah? That makes sense? Good question? All right? Three down seveneen.
Good answer, Good question, Chads.
Question four. In your view, are we over pathologizing uncomfortable emotions or are we under treating genuine mental health issues or maybe option C, which is neither of the girls, all of the above, or a bit of both.
Yes, we overpathologize difficult emotions. It is only human to feel a whole range of emotions, and I think we get sort of lulled into this trap of thinking that it's normal to be happy all the time, that that's really what life is about, which it's not. And it's actually not normal to be happy all the time. Nobody is, and the feelings, all feelings are really normal and human.
And I read it quote the other day that joy is the matetriarch that can only arrive when all of her children have been welcomed, and it was a really profound quote. I think I put it in my newsletter last week. I'm probably butchering it a little bit, but you get the gist. I would dearly love, I would dearly love for everybody to know that whatever comes up for us, whatever we're feeling, even you know, we don't like it, we don't want to feel it, and so
we try to struggle with it. We try to pretend it's not happening, distract ourselves, maybe numb ourselves with you know, chocolate or food, or drinking or drugs or what you
name your vice. When overwhelmingly, when difficult emotions come up, when we can recognize that this is the experience we're having, and we can say to ourselves, I'm feeling so disappointed or I'm feeling terribly upset about this, so I'm so distressed, or I'm so overwhelmed right now, simply that idea of naming it, we know from the science, reduces the distress
in itself. But when we can just sit and go, right, well, I'm just going to feel a bit like this for a while, I'm going to feel a bit crap for a while, I'm going to feel a bit sad for a while, and just go okay, well, that's just how I'm feeling at the moment, and then you know, we've acknowledged it. We've welcomed it, not because we want it to come back every day, but we're sort of not shoving the door, you know, closed. Then we process it because we have to move through what we feel. We
try as we might. We can't go around under over or they do catch up with us as we know. So in terms of sort of the over pathologizing, like it is natural to feel devastated when you lose a loved one. It is natural to be sad for weeks, maybe months, even if you know you lose a pet. It's natural to feel terribly disappointed if you don't get the job that you've applied for. They're all natural. In terms of the other part of the question, which was
related to are enough people? So, was it are enough people getting the help they need for?
Yeah, I'll challenge like is it over perthologized? Like are we just going everyone who's having a bad day, Oh, you've got this, you've got that. It's like I feel like people are given labels. You just go somewhere and it's like you've got this, you need that, you need this medication and I'm I'm not trying at all being insensitive. I'm like, is it possible that I'm actually just a regular human having a shit day? And shit days are just normal part of the human experience. It's not an illness,
it's human. Is there that? Or and the part B was or are we under treating genuine you know issues mental health issues?
Yeah, and there are a lot of people who are struggling with their mental health who aren't connecting with help and support, and so I think I think it's probably you know, it's a d you know, a little bit of the above, which is it's so human, Like, I mean, terrible things happen to us because you know, to to live the lives that we have with meaning we're going to care about things, and things don't always go the way we want. You Inevitably the people we love will die.
We will too, and so these things are bloody painful. But there is obviously that point at which you know, we can have our normal emotions that we move through day to day versus emotions whether that be anxiety or sadness or anger, that overwhelm us and are hanging around for a long time and getting in the way of our relationships, our work. There's that too. So yeah, that's a complicated answer. I suppose all right, good.
You're going well, so far elephant stamp for you?
Oh what the golds does?
So this one is more personal, right, So could you tell us one thing other than medication? Like, I only want one and maybe there is not one at the top of the list, but I just want one that is at the top of the list or near the top of the list. A protocol, a practice, a habit that works best for you in alleviating the mayhem of anxiety. So other than taking im ds, what is one thing, one practice or ritual that you have that's really proven to be valuable.
It's my breath and it is frequently during the day lengthening my exhale, and I sometimes try to remember to do the physiological side, which requires an extra inhalation. So it would be like.
This, right, So just describe for people who are only listening because we didn't hear it described for people. Sorry, that's all right. Describe for people what you just did.
Okay, So Number one, the thing that helps me the most is lengthening my exhale. So when I realize I'm stressed, I will just almost automatically go to that as a strategy, so slow my breathing length and my exhal out. I don't count it. I just slow down and lengthen it. Sometimes when I am doing a more deliberate breathing practice, I'll use a version of that where you breathing inhal through your notes fully.
Yes, yeah, And then.
There's a tiny little bit extra that if you just do a little extra inhalation at the top, like a little sip, a little sniff at the top of that inhalation through oat. So that's true, and then length in your exal that's called the physiological site. And I find that to be profound in the way that it helps me settle my nervous system very very quickly when I'm anxious.
Love it. I think that's yeah. I do a similar thing, Yeah, kind of. I do a bit of box breathing, but it's in the same wheelhouse. I wrote a thing the other day. I want to ask you a question off the back of this thing. So I wrote this for social media. The heading or the the title is not special in brackets, and that's okay. Maybe someone told you that you're special and amazing and gifted and unique. But
what if you're not. What if you're a regular human who has to work hard like me, one who fucks up and gets back up, one who tries harder and then tries harder, one who develops skill and confidence and competence and maybe even mastery through effort and courage and discipline and repetition. What if, despite not being the unicorn, you decide to explore your outer limits to optimize what you have to work with, to outperform your fear and self doubt and overthinking mind. And if you do, I'll
be cheering you on. My question around that is, I'm not a parent, so I wouldn't even pretend to have any unique insight into parenting or working with kids in
this kind of cognitive, psychological, sociological kind of space. But what's the the balance between, you know, every time your kid's got like the slightest thing, you run in there with the nerf gun and the safety net and the warm blanket and the cuddle and then and you're always protecting them and always, And I get it, I understand the compulsion to do that, But what's the cost of not letting kids fall over or have a hard day or come last, and you go, You're not special. You're
loved by me, and you're special to me. I'm not saying I would say to a kid, you're not do you know what I mean? I mean, this is just the reality of the world is that not everyone is fucking special. But we have this story like I am and I'm not throwing myself under the bus, but i know my skills and abilities and talents and I'm I'm so not fucking special. And people go, oh, and that makes people feel uncomfortable. Even when I say that, people feel like they've got to come in and say no,
I'm like, I'm fucking not. I'm not looking for attention or approval of validation. I don't need and I appreciate the love and the kindness and the empty but I'm not. There are some things that I'm good at, and that's
mainly through work and effort and repetition. There are some things I'm shit at and also that's okay, Like how do we juggle this thing where you know, like we want simultaneously want to care about people and love people, and or also we need people to be resilient and if they never have to do hard things, or feel hard things, or make hard decisions, or get uncomfortable or fall down or be embarrassed or look like an idiot,
because all of those are the human experience. By the way, if we're trying to constantly protect them from a feeling anything bad or experiencing anything hard, how does that work?
It doesn't work very well. And it's a there's a false kind of belief that that you you know, for some for some parents, And look, parenting is so difficult, and I'm no parenting expert, and people people respond as parents because of the way that they were raised, and you know, the different sort of stories and experiences and beliefs in their own lives. But what I can say is that you know that there's that old saying, isn't
it bamboo only gains its strength in the wind. It's it's we we only we only learn what we can cope with by coupling with stuff. That's the only way we learn. We learn that if we you know, when you're little, if you get wet socks because you jumped in a muddy paddle that was too deep and the water went in your gum boot. Yes it's cold, Yes
it's unexpected. Takes you by surprise, but you know what, you realize we can just whip that sock off, pull the water out, put the boot back on, get on with having some fun, like you know, right through to losing people in our lives, like I lost my gorgeous dear Annie jen and last October from a stroke, and it's so devastating, and you do feel at the time like you'll never get through it, and that it's so painful and distressing, but you learn through time and experience
that you actually do, you do get through it, and so instinctively, as parents, our job is to keep our kids safe. Of course, don't let them run on the road, and don't let them fall from the monkey bars if it's too far a drop, you know, of course, but
we do. There's not enough risk taking, and it's through risk taking and play that young people actually learn to push on the edges of those boundaries and to manage, you know, stretching themselves a little bit and experiencing a little bit of fear, but knowing you know where the boundaries are, and then stretching those a little bit more so you know, I also know that like as a parent myself, like you have to let your kids stuff up and fail, and you just have to because that's
they'll learn through those experiences. And our job isn't to keep them safe from everything. It's to prepare them for, you know, spreading their wings getting out to the big wide world, which is not very precious.
Well, I mean, and that's the thing, right, I need to be careful here. But so I've got and had friends over the years who and people that I know well and not so well. And it's not that their kids are bad kids, they're not at all, but they've just been so sheltered, so protected. Then they literally become an adult. Okay, now they can drive, now, they can vote, now,
they can drink alcohol. Now they're going to go get a job or go to university, and they are like adults twelve year olds who oh yeah they can they can land the Space Shuttle with their phone, but they can't have a hard conversation. They can't go in for a job interview and look someone in the eye. They can't. You know. It's like I think that, and I mean, I don't know, but the challenges, yes, doing what you
were talking about. Yeah, we've got to love them, protect them to a point but then also allow them to have experiences where they can build resilience and competence and capacity and understanding and situational awareness and social awareness and all of these things where you're like, right, you're an adult now. I mean, I've got friends who've got twenty
five year old kids who are like big babies. I mean, they're well and truly grown ups, but oh my god, the relationship is so fucking dysfunctional, and it's you.
Know, well meaning loving parents can often do their kids a huge disservice, and we've all done it. We've all stepped in when we kind of realize in hindsight, oh, I should have let that, you know, let that unbold you know, you know we don't. But it's our pain
that we're trying. We have to learn to tolerate our pain and our distress around the failure, whether it's not getting the job, or or breaking up with the boyfriend or girlfriend, or not getting the atar you know that you need for the course that you want to get into. But coming back to the you being special, I think one of the things I think about is that you
do a lot of very special things. You've worked very very hard and developed skills and with a perseverance, unlike most people I know to be in a position where you're doing a lot of wonderful things that that people really admire about you. And it's hard, I think sometimes when you don't see what's sort of turning behind the scenes, behind the curtain of all the work that comes to it, it's hard sometimes to kind of hold the two things
at the same time. That you speak in front of big groups you loved and adored through your podcast and through your community and your workshops, and you've written your books and you sought after in so many ways. You're finishing a PhD in your sixties. Those things are special things to have achieved. But yeah, it's hard sometimes I think to think, well, there's got to be something really special about this person who's done all this.
Yeah, no, thank you, I appreciate all that. I This is not my recommendation everyone, This is not what I think you all should be. But for me, I've kind of different rules for me. I think I should be hard on me, but not in a self loathing way, right, I think, you know, like my PhD is largely around self awareness, situational awareness, social awareness, self other awareness, as it's called in some research, but anyway, it's like, I like, there's no bigger critic in the world of me than me. Now,
that doesn't mean I think I'm shit. I don't think I'm shit. I also don't think I'm a gift to the world. I don't think that at all, Right, But I think it's this juxtaposition of being able to love yourself in a healthy, not egotistical, but a healthy, emotionally healthy way, right, but also go, yeah, I fuck that thing up and I'm the problem, so I need to undo it or fix it. And it's not mum and Dad's fault, and it's not my genetics, and it's not the boss, and it's not the government, and it's not
the weather, and it's not the situation. It's me. It's very hard. We've had this conversation many times on this show, like people want feedback until you give them feedback, Like, oh yeah, I love feedback. No, you don't. You love praise, you love support, you love all of those things. And I don't blame you. Me too. When someone tells me, I mace like you kind of just did, it's lovely. It's great for my ego. However, there's a lot more to me than the good stuff. You know, there's all
the fuck ups. There's all the things I've had to do and undo and repair, and you know, there's my ego and my shitty self worth and all of my body image issues over the years, and all of the behaviors that I hid from people because I was embarrassed, because I wanted them to see me in a certain light, so I'd eat a certain way publicly, and I'd need a different way privately, And you know, all of this
very human, not very special, not very desirable stuff. You're like, oh, so you're pretty fucked up.
Well I was.
You know, I'm probably still a bit fucked up. But I'm a work in progress, and so I think that to be able to go. Look, I'm better than I was. I've still got work to go and I'm really trying. And but you know, there are things that I still don't do well, and some things I do do well without getting trapped in the emotion of it all like oh poor me, And it's like, well, of course people don't give a shit about you sometimes, like have you
been out into the world. You know, some people want you to fail, right, of course, Now I'm not saying that's good. It's terrible. But it's just part of the human experience, you know. Do I get people send me fucking horrible messages? Of course, it's an inevitability. If you write enough stuff and say enough things and have a big enough audience. Of course, some people are gonna hate me. Okay, So if you don't want any of that, Craig, then
get off social media. Don't say anything, don't have a podcast, don't have a voice, step away from the public, go live in the bush, our complant some veggie. Shut the fuck up, get a golden retriever. Actually, this is sounding very as it's coming out of my mouth. I'm like, am I not doing that? Hey, Jody, we've got to wind up. You're great. Tell people how to get your books, listen to your show, give them the whole Jody spiel again, if you would, please and thank you.
Oh Craig, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for having me, and I really enjoyed this conversation. Oh yes, please just google me d dr So it's Dr Jody with an I j O. D. I. Richardson dot com is my website. You'll find me on Instagram, and LinkedIn and Craig, I'm not going to say what it is, but next time we talk, I will be able to announce that I've got something very special that I am going to be releasing into the world, So I'll tell you off air.
But yeah, next time we talk, a jump to a newsletter please if you'd like to be the first to know. And yeah, that's on the bottom of my landing page on my website. Yeah. I'm really excited to Chouse in the making. Huge amount of work, poured my heart and soul into it.
So yes, well, grats a preliminary congrats. That is exciting. Jody's podcast is called will Hello Anxiety, so give that a listen. I will say goodbye in a mini but for now, thanks
Doc, Thanks Craig, thank you,