Doctor Bill, welcome back to the You Project, my friend.
How you doing, Craig, It's good to be back.
We always love chatting with you. We won't go too far down the rabbit hole like we did a minute ago, but we'll just I think I have to acknowledge that. And of course everyone doctor Bill lives in the States. It's it's we'll just go with It's interesting times over there.
Interesting is a good word, Yeah, well I would, I would, I would use bizarre world or chaos, but interesting it is a nice way to put it. Is there?
What is them? I mean, I'm sure there's Let's do two minutes on this because I'm sure, especially my Australian listeners wouldn't mind an insight from somebody who's living in the middle of I don't know, I don't know what I was going to say, chaos, but you're probably not directly in the chaos, but kind of what's the most when you say bizarro world, what's the most bizarre to you just as a being in the middle or as an observer of it, But what just kind of blows
your mind that's happening right now?
Well, I still can't get my head wrapped around the fact that seventy million people in this country felt comfortable putting a convicted felon who has a horrible track record of fraud and you know, malevolence and just abject cruelty into the office of the president, not to mention his you know, colossally poor intellect and judgment that is demonstrable. I mean, you can just investigate his history for this.
You know, he lives in a different universe and it's not reality, it's not evidence based, and it's taking this country right off a cliff to a point, a lawyer who is utterly unqualified to lead you know, human health services over here, which controls like our vaccine schedule and a whole slew of other really critical health decisions, is just beyond the point of absurdity. I feel like I'm
living in some kind of towilight zone. I mean, a responsible leader just does not appoint these outrageously unqualified and downright dangerous people into positions of power like that He's going to get people killed.
Yeah, wow, it's from us. I mean, we just see. I think every country in the world is somewhat obsessed with America, and Australia is no different. I mean, if we're not talking about us, we're talking about you as he's probably everyone. But from the outside looking in, it's I don't even know why, but even people in Australia are like a bit scared. Some people a bit like
are the world's the world spinning out of control? And you know, there's always been a bit of like background stuff going on and a bit of this sense, and you know, the outbreak here there, or a minor war over here, not that there's such a thing as a minor war, but you know what I mean is and but right now it just seems like the volume has been turned up on all the craziness like in the States, but everywhere.
Yeah, it certainly seems that way, and I think that's by design. Like I said, every day there's multiple things happening that just don't make any sense or we're so outrageous, you know, you can't believe someone just said that or someone just did that, and there's no one saying anything to like normalize or get people back to what used to be normal. It just seems like we're going more and more closer to the edge. And yeah, I share
your concern about that. It's not a comfortable feeling. So yeah, it's it's pretty crazy times.
Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge. It's a challenge for everyone. And it's even in Australia. It's not that, but it's. Australia is an interesting place right now. You may or may not know this, but we have the dearest real estate in the world. Like it's it's like in Melbourne where I live, to buy a property for the average young person, the average young couple that are twenty five, thirty thirty five, that just got married, whatever. For the average people, they'll never own a home outright. But you
just can't, like a very in Melbourne. An average not a good, not a you know, I don't mean not good, but not nothing. Fancy you run in the mill three bedroom, one or two bathroom, maybe thirty forty fifty year old house is going to cost you one to one point five million dollars.
Wow, that's just insane.
Is that crazy?
Is that causing a lot more people to rent instead of buying a home?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Yeah, that's not good and that people can't save money that way.
Where I live, which is not I mean, it's nice, but it's not you know, there are some fancy areas. But down the road from literally five hundred meters from me, they've just built this new apartment complex. We'll get off this in a minute, because we just sound like those two old guys in the Muppets up in the bloody you know stands.
But everybody loves those two craigs. Keeps done.
Yeah, well that's that's true. That's true. But just down the road from me, they've built these apartments and they start two bedroom apartments. There's two and three, but the cheapest apartment you can buy is two bedroom, and it says it kicks off at between one and three and
one point four million dollars. These are the starting prices for a two bedroom apartment, which is you know, I don't know, probably eight squares or something like that, ten squares maybe, which is like a thousand square feet, you know, give or take. I mean, yeah, it's crazy, and it's I think, I don't know, it's an interesting time for the specie. It's like it's an interesting time for humanity.
Like I'm wondering, one if we're going to be here in a hundred years, I don't know, and two if we are as a species here in one hundred years what they're going to be saying about this time in history, you.
Know, right right, Well, yeah, I don't think it's going to be anything good. I think there's going to be a lot of what the hell were they thinking? Well, you know, why were they being so stupid and ignoring you know what scientists and experts are saying about the world, you know, the dangers that are in front of us, and then just totally dismissing experts for for charlatans and you know, conspiracy theorists. It's just really difficult in this modern day and age to see this kind of medieval
logic resurfacing. You know, it's just kind of it's downright scary, and if we don't get a handle on it, it could really spell disaster, a lot of suffering and death, very unnecessary. What scares me the most is the increasing inequality, and this is happening in all countries, where the very few people who are just ridiculously wealthy are going to get even wealthier at the expense of people who are trying to climb out of poverty or just hold their own
in the middle class. I've studied quite a bit of history on this topic. And every civilization just prior to falling experience gross inequality that seemed to be one of the key factors that was a telltale sign of societal collapse. And it's getting worse every day. So we really need to rein in this inequality that exists throughout the world and getting rid of these billionaires. Millionaires should not exist when we still have people who are starving in this world.
It's just such a gross, you know, distribution of the world's resources, and it just cannot be sustained.
It must frustrate you as I mean, you're a proper scientist. I'm not. I'm a summer pretend one. But it like even for me on social media and people speaking out about stuff, so I kind of inhabit more the psychology
or the more biology physiology. But when people come out and they're saying essentially pop psychology bullshitty, you know, misleading things about whatever about psychology or human behavior or the mind, or they're trying to you know, they're talking about something significant, like you know, trauma or grief or and you know,
some three step solution, and I roll my eyes. But the truth is that a lot of people don't know the difference between basically an Instagram post and science or research or something that's you know, even people who so
my other degree, as you know, is XI science. But people who will bring to me their supplements or their you know, a food product and they'll, you know, because it's got some tick or some star on the front, this is good, right, And I'm like, no, let's turn around and let's look at the back where the actual information is. And I have to say to people, so, what's on the front. This is not information. This is a sales pitch to get you to pick it up
and buy it, right, That's not that's not information. The information that they don't want you to see is around here. I don't know what it is in the state it's been in Australia. It's in the tiniest font that you can't read in the bottom right hand or left hand corner. That they try to make this thing as obscure as possible because they don't want people to read it or understand it or know what they're actually putting in their body.
I feel like that's going on a lot, and not with just nutritional psychology or exercise, but across the board, a version of that deception.
Yeah, and that's and that's that's really where it's at. It's a deception. And people who market and you know, profit from this stuff, they're the real villains. It's really easy to blame people for not thinking or critically evaluating things because we have a lot of trust in the society. That's the way we're supposed to be functioning. But there's a lot of cheaters, and one of the roles of
government is to neutralize these cheaters. So the real problem comes back full circle to where we began this conversation, Craig, is when you put cheaters into government, you really are setting society up for an absolute disaster. And that's what we've done in this country.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know whether to make one maniac steering this sheep.
Never is a good idea as a leader in politics, in business, or in academia. It's just bad news any which way you try to slice it.
M Well, speaking of bad news, Uh, speaking of bad news, what about this article that you wrote, A common parasite can decapitate human sperm with implications? Well, male fertility and sperm count has been plumbing for decades, hasn't it, And so give us a synopsis of the article that you wrote, if you would doc.
So, yeah, before we I'm going to get right into that, but I'm going to frame this as good news because we've learned something here. You know, these studies are telling us something important and there's things we can do to prevent getting this infection. So we're going to spin this as, hey, this is remarkable finding, disturbing, but remarkable, and now we know what to do.
And that's why you're the that's why you're the professor, and I'm the student.
That's well, you're getting your PhD sudents so you can take me to school. But it also underscores you know, you say, we went down a rabbit hole with our little discussion, but it's really important and people in the States and other places in the world need to realize how important funding of basic science research is. It's what produces results like the one we're going to talk about today, so that society can take action to protect themselves from
potential danger. The administration we have in the States has proposed it hasn't passed yet, but they propose to slash biomedical research funding. This is the funding that allows me to go to work and do experiments. They want to cut it forty four percent so they can have more money to feed these billionaires, you know, and this is just devastating to everybody. So I can say that from a very selfish angle. It's going to hurt me in
my lab. I might have to fire students or postdocs as a result of this, Okay if it passes, and that's just heartbreaking to me. But think about, you know, the things that many scientific labs in the States are going to produce over the next couple of years. Yeah, you know, all sorts of wonderful things that could advance treatments towards everything from Alzheimer's to zecravirus and everything in between. And that's just not going to happen if the budget
gets slashed almost fifty percent. It's just insanity. And it's even further insanity when you look at the money that science gets. It actually produces almost a three percent profit of economic activity in return. I mean, if you're going to invest your government dollars in something, scientific research is the most economically viable choice. So that's my soapbox. I'll get off it for now.
No, I love it.
Well, might get into we'll get into the study. That underscores how important it is that scientists are in their labs and working on problems like this common parasite, which we have talked about before. But for those of you you know, who haven't heard of Tosoplasma GANDHII, this is a parasite that's infected anywhere from thirty to fifty percent of the world's population. That's a huge number of people.
We're talking billions now. Doesn't make people sick, you know, unless you're severely immune compromised, but it stays with you for life, gets into your brains as a cyst, gets into your heart and scale to muscle. And what this study that you alluded to, Craig, has just shown is that it can get into male testicles and possibly be affecting male fertility, which, as you said, over the past decades has just nosedived and scientists have absolutely no idea why.
And to put that problem into perspective, here's one of the statistics. Male infertility rates have increased nearly eighty percent from nineteen ninety to twenty nineteen. Now that's crazy, and you know that is something that should alarm everyone, and it's something that scientists have really got to investigate more rigorously because we have no idea what the hell's going on?
What about I know not much about this, well next to nothing, But I heard somebody talking about a correlation between plastics and thallites, you know, and all of the leeching from plastic into foods and into water bottles and into things that we cook in, and that in part having an impact on you know, testosterone levels and fertility and sperm count and all of those things. Is that anything in.
That, Yeah, there's a lot of evidence to that effect. What you're referring to are so called endocrine disruptors, and these are chemicals that can get into our bodies and they're so called forever chemicals, so once they get out into the environment, they're very slow to break down, so
they're kind of out there for good. And you know, they get into our tissues and disrupt our hormones, and that can clearly have an effect on fertility, and in some cases it seems to be heritable, you know, so if you do have a child, the next generation seems to be disadvantaged with respect to propagating the species. It's pretty scary. But some of the other more common culprits
are obesity, poor diet, like malnutrition. You know, people eat a lot of calories, but they're not necessarily getting the nutrients they need. That can affect fertility for sure for men and women. And then of course environmental toxins, which includes the chemicals that you are talking about and a whole slew of other ones. You know, there's so many candidates out there that could be potentially hurting fertility. It's really hard to, uh, you know, pinpoint which one or
which group is doing the most damage. And of course it could be a combination of all these things. Microplastics is coming into the picture now as another potential danger, but what gets underappreciated are infectious diseases. They could also be contributing to this problem, probably not to the same extent as some environmental toxin or you know, bad health. Yes, but I don't think it can be ignored, especially after we go over some of the results you know of
this paper and studies that led up to it. But infectious diseases like toxoplasma, which like microplastics, kind of get in us and stay with us for life, but also kind of rita and chlamydia. These are sexually transmitted diseases that have a clear role in decreasing fertility or damaging fertility, and they're just not emphasized enough part of the equation and they just need to be talked about more.
Is before we jump into the specifics of your article. If you've got a cat, everyone get rid of it.
We don't want to do that. I'll be here to give you some guidelines on how to safely maintain a cat.
All right, what about important?
Why you said that? You know, we do have to talk about why you said that.
We'll definitely talk about why I said that. But my last one before I get out of your why is is it would seem to me, I don't know if we just talk about it more or there's a higher incidence of people who don't seem to sleep well people there seems to be maybe there's just more awareness, but I think there's a high prevalence of anxiety and stress
and mental health issues. I would think that would be that would have an impact on the endo crime system as well, like poor sleep, inadequate sleep, you know, chronically over time, so those things also would have a negative correlation peraps.
Yeah, no question about it. I think they're all interrelated, you know, to an extent. I mean, if you just look at like poor diet and lack of exercise, that's going to snowball into a lot of other risk factors like obesity, some of the chemicals and ultraposit processed food. And you know, without exercise, you don't you know where the body out enough to get a good night sleep. That can also be detrimental. So yeah, it all kind of relates and snowballs together.
All right, So toxoplasma gone, y'all are the suspect in the middle of all of this, all right? The focus of today's.
Chat, a potentially new contributor to the male infertility problem is what this new study that came out in April is suggesting. And we do want to take it with a grain of salt. You know, it's still very preliminary research, but it's intriguing enough to warrant discussion and in my mind, much larger serious studies to see if there's some truth
to toxoplasma possibly contributing to the male infertility problem. So a little bit about toxoplasma first, just as a quick review for people who don't listen to me being on your podcast in the past, which they should go do. Toxoplasma is transmitted in a number of ways, and that's why it is so predominant throughout the human species. Like we said, billions of people are infected because there's three major routes of infection, the first of which is the cat.
So cats are the only organism where the parasite undergoes its sexual stages. So when cats go to the bathroom, they're releasing parasite eggs into the litter box, the sandbox, or the environment, so they can contaminate the food and water chain when they're infected with this parasite, and cat owners can become infected if they don't promptly clean their
litter box and wash their hands very thoroughly afterwards. Kids playing in the yard or sandbox can pick it up, you know, people who garden can pick it up if a cat's been in the garden unwashed. Fruits and vegetables are a source of these parasite eggs, and these eggs, once they're released into the environment are stable for one to two years, so they don't go away quickly. They also contaminate water, so filter feeders like shellfish, clams, and oysters.
They will trap these oasis into the tissues that people eat. So if you eat raw shellfish, you're basically inoculating yourself with this huge dose of toxoplasma. Eggs not a good idea. So that's just from the cat. Any animal gets infected, and like I said before, the parasite insists in brain, heart, muscle tissue. So if we have raw or undercooked meat almost any animal, pork, lamb, venison, steak, there's a chance that toxoplasma could infect you that way if you don't
properly cook that animal. And then there's a really tragic rout of transmission congenital transmission. This is mother to child. So the reason why doctors tell people while they're pregnant not to change the litter box is because of talk plasma. If a woman becomes infected for the first time during her pregnancy, that can lead to miscarriage or congenital birth defects, and those can be quite devastating. Vision impairment, cognitive defects, defects,
and motor skills. It really runs the gamut. So three major routes of transmission make toxoplasma a really common parasite. And then on top of all of that, there's no way to cure it. We can't get this parasite out of our brains or out of our bodies. We can control acute episodes of infection, so if the parasite reactivates and starts causing brain damage or heart damage, there are medications that people can take that will put the parasite
into remission. You know, those can be life saving drugs. Unfortunately, though, they don't get rid of the parasite, they just put it into remission. So when we're talking about this fertility problem, you know, toxoplasma can get into men and one of the areas that this parasite likes to go to, and this has been confirmed not only in humans, but in rodent models like mice and rats as well as a
few other species. This parasite goes to the testes within two days of infection, so it's really remarkable to be aware of that. So that's not good news. You know, if you're a guy and have these parasites that just kind of stay in your balls for the rest of your life, you know, it's not a good situation. And it raises the question if this parasite can invade male reproductive organs. Does it have an effect on fertility? Could it be contributing to this massive decline that we are
seeing in male infertility. So that's what this news that he tried to address. But it was but it was it didn't, you know, just come out of the ether all of a sudden. There have been other studies done
suggestive that toxoplasma could have some effect on fertility. So in one of the studies my own lab did, in collaboration with a few of my buddies at Indiana University School of Medicine, we found for the first time that toxoplasma can insist in the prostate too, So you have these parasite cysts sitting in the prostate and it actually induces a sustained inflammatory response. So inflammation of the prostate is one of the precursors to prostate cancer. So again
this is not good news either. I wanted to call that paper great balls of Fire, but wouldn't let me do it. It was, you know, this parasite's called inflammation in the prostate. But you know, and that was in just twenty seventeen, So these are really new discoveries. Craig and a lot more work needs to be done, but I think there's enough data in place right now that says we've got to look at this problem a lot
more seriously and give it a lot more attention. We certainly don't want to defund science up to fifty percent at this point. But toxo has been found, you know, in the semen of a variety of animals, including humans, so you know it's in the ejaculate, which raises another rather terrifying question. Is toxoplasma sexually transmitted? We don't have
an answer for that, but the possibility is there. Perhaps during acute episodes they don't last too long, but during that window there is a possibility with toxoplasma being present in semen, it could be sexually admit it, you know, another another reason to engage in safe sex. So yeah, yes, sorry, go ahead and rambling.
Go on here, I'm just trying to Yeah, I'm not terrified at all. Now, thanks for all of that. Back in the therapy for harps.
That's what I'm here for.
Yeah, no good, just to come and terrorize me in the masses. Okay, so a couple of things. I don't even know what questions to ask, but here's one. So thirty to fifty percent of people listening to their show statistically have got toxoplasma gondie. So right, statistically, Yeah, yeah.
In Australia, I believe the numbers hover around twenty five to thirty percent.
Okay, And I mean you may or may not know the answer to this, but of the you know, if we get ten people who have got it, how many of them will ever show any symptoms or or be you know, detrimentally affected, like there's some physical problem that is because of that.
Oh yeah, no, that's a great question. And it depends if they were congenitally infected, which means they acquired it during birth. Yeah, those individuals tend to have problems throughout the rest of their lives. The parasite reactivates from time to time, and every time it does so, it does brain damage, it does eye damage, It can inflame the heart. Who knows, it might be damaging male reproductive organs as well, based on what we've been learning very recently.
So and when people have episodes where things get in like what's the treatment, Like what do they.
Do when you have an acute case of toxoplasmosis? There are drugs called antifolates that the person can take and they get the parasite under control fairly quickly, they'll stop it from growing, and they'll retreat back into these insistent forms. Now, unfortunately, the antifolates and no other drug that we know of can get rid of the inc form. So that's the obstacle to treatment.
I love this. So twenty twenty five study exposed human sperm to T. Goondii in vitro. Twenty two point four percent of sperm lose their heads, that is, and then it says in brackets that is decapitated in just five minutes. Well, do we have to bring the word decapitated? So that's in vitro? Is that also representative in vivo? Like, is that that happen you know, out of the lab as well? Or we're not sure?
Yeah, that that's that's something that needs to be followed up. But there is evidence that animals that are infected with toxoplasma have deformed sperm. Wow, up until the new study that you just mentioned, all of this was done in other species. Okay, However, there were a couple studies that were really interesting here that kind of led the group to look at this question. There was a small two thousand and five study that was done in China and it found that sterile men are more likely to test
positive for toxoplasma than fertile men. So interesting correlation, but a small study. There was another small study done in twenty twenty one in Czechoslovakia. Just about one hundred and fifty men or so, all of them were infected with toxoplasma and they looked at their semen, they looked at their sperm, and eighty six percent of them had defects in their sperm. Now there's there's not a direct test there.
That's what the new study addresses. You know, the study that was just done that that I just mentioned in Czechoslovakia showed a correlation, didn't show that toxoplasma was responsible for those defects in the sperm. So that's where this new study came into play. And that's the new factor that it contributed. It said, all right, well, let's just cut to the chase. Let's take some toxoplasma parasites, mix them with some live human sperm in a test tube
and see what happens. You know, maybe the parasites don't do anything to the sperm. But that wasn't true. Like you said, almost a quarter of the sperm lost their heads, so they're dead. You know that sperm would be dead. That's not a reversible feature. But if you go to the article that I wrote, you'll see some really awful pictures of what these parasites have done to the sperm.
You will see if the sperm manages to keep its head okay, it'll usually have a hole in it where the parasite tried to invade that sperm cell okay, and then just left this gaping hole in the sperm head. That can't be good.
The tails, I'm nice, sperm ex I'm nice.
Yeah, yeah, that can't be good. The tails of the sperm, which are critical for the sperm being able to move and get to the egg. They're all bent out of shape, you know, kind of looping back around. They look like they're almost snapped in places. The parasite's doing some really serious damage to both the head and the tail of these sperms. So it's not unreasonable to question, once you see the devastation as parasite can inflict on sperm, that
it's going to lead to troubles in fertility. To what degree, Well, that still remains to be answered. You know, we don't know this. Sometimes maybe a misshape and sperm can still get to the egg and it's not a problem. But that is a question that needs to be more closely looked at. And we also don't know, like you said, in vivo in the body, can toxoplasma parasites gain access to sperm cells to do the type of damage that we saw in the test tube. That's really hard to address.
But we do know for a fact that toxoplasma can invade the testes. It can get into the testicles, and the new study showed evidence that it also gets into a tube called the epididymous. This is where sperm cells mature and get stored. So if toxoplasma can get access to that tube, it could come in direct contact with sperm. Now, something we want to get across so that people aren't freaking out here, is that toxoplasma is not in its
active state, you know, for very long. You know, if people become infected, you're usually you know, you usually can't even tell, you don't get a lot of symptoms. But the parasite develops into its cyst form very quickly, so there's not free parasites floating around in your body all the time. It would probably be limited to seven to fourteen days maximum where you might have free parasites in
your body before they're all in the insisted stage. So it's hard to believe that once they're in the late and CIS stage that a lot of this sperm damage
could be happening. But like I said before, we did show that at least in the prostate, even in its insistent form, there's a sustained low level of inflammation in these organs, and inflammation in male reproductive organs has been linked to infertility as well, So that's another mechanism by which toxoplasma could be adversely affecting fertility, not coming into contact with sperm directly, but just by inducing inflammation down in the gonad region.
Oh, this is just ruined my hall day. I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to be able to think. I have to kind of have a lie down and kill the cat. No, I'm not everyone, I'm joking everyone. I don't have a cat. If I did, I wouldn't kill it. I wonder if there's like a a toxoplasma dose threshold needed to harm sperm because it's got maybe under a certain point it doesn't do damage. But I don't know. I don't even know if that makes sense.
But that makes that makes perfect sense. That's one of the variables that needs to be tested in a future study because at the moment, you know, how do you know that the number of parasites that you put into that test tube with the sperm is anything close to what actually happens in the body. That's an unanswered question. We don't know that this is an artificial setup, right, and it's just to assess. It's to just answer the question,
Ken toxoplasma damaged sperm, does it do it in the body? Maybe?
Okay, So managing catlet a personal hygiene, washing fruit and veggies, produce, cooking meat, thoroughly avoiding raw shellfish, shout out to the shellfish eaters, and obviously just good hygiene in general. Are they that? Are they that kind of preventative pieces of advice?
Yeah, you said that just as well as I do. You must have heard about toxoplasma before from somebody who could that.
Or I might have notes on an article that you wrote. So I will I will take none of your praise. I just I just read what you wrote. And but also I mean, and I know telling someone not to worry doesn't stop anyone from worrying. But I mean, this is something that's been around. It's prevalent anyway, you know, half an hour earlier than right now, our audience, so many of them didn't know about it. So it's nothing to panic about, but just rather something to be aware of.
Right, Yeah, if you follow the simple steps that Craig just outlined, your chances of getting toxoplasma go way down, so you really don't have anything to worry about if you take those simple precautions, and you know, it's not much of a big ask, so you'll be fine. And there's other reasons why you don't want toxoplasma. You know, we already talked about congenital infection. But this parasite insists in your brain, and there's evidence that it could cause
personality and behavioral changes. There's links to schizophrenia, links to rage disorder. It's just a bad parasite to have in your body, despite the fact that most people do. So we are trying to do our best with educational campaigns to minimize transmission of this parasite, and they do seem to be working in a lot of countries around the world.
In the States, for example, toxoplasma zero prevalence used to be twenty five percent in the nineties and the two thousands, and the latest figures, now that more people know about it, show in the United States toxoplasma zero prevalence is down to about eleven percent, So you know these these educational campaigns work. France used to have a zero prevalence of ninety percent. Wow, isn't that crazy? Almost everybody in France used to be infected with this parasite, but the latest
numbers show that's down to fifty percent. So we're making a lot of progress, not with new cures, but just with prevention.
Perfect Now you can find that article. It is a really good article. It's on the Conversation and the website address is all one word, the conversation dot com and the name of the article is a common parasite that can decapitite human sperm with implications for male fertility, and that's written on May twenty eight, So go have a look at that. And also for some of you, obviously you might want to share this conversation perhaps with somebody who you think might find it interesting, if not a
little terrifying, send it to them anyway. But also that article is on the conversation dot com. We appreciate you, Doc, It's always enlightening, a little bit scary, and a lot of fun to chat with.
You well as always thanks for having me on, Craig It's great to be here.
And before we go, if people want to find you, follow you, connect with you, read more of your work where and how can they do that?
Yeah, they can simply go to my website Wwwauthor Bill Sullivan dot com.
Perfect. Thanks Doc, see you next time.