Oh, get a your bloody winners the taps. Who else would it be? It's the You project, it's us, it's you, it's me, and it's a blow called Scotty. We'll get to him in a moment. Hope you're terrific everyone. I hope you're having a good week or weekend whenever you're
listening to this. Don't forget. Don't forget. We've got a Facebook group which is a little bit of a getting together kind of online spot for people who follow the show, love the show, So a bit of a safe space where you can go and interact with like minded people who kind of want to be part of a community that's more towards a positive end.
Of the scale. Online there's a fucking novel idea, isn't it?
So you can support and encourage other people, share an idea, a book that you've read, a thought that you've had, hang out with people.
That's the reason that I do it.
There's no kind of agenda, there's no hooks or catches, there's no on sell, upsell, none of that shit. We just post the episodes as they come up, and you might want to riff or talk about that or ask a question but anyway, that's our little online community, so feel free to jump on there. Scottie Douglas making with you fucking Is this your overall podcast debut?
Yes it is. Yes.
Now now you.
I've seen you freestyle, Lucy Goosey, you're just a little bit up tight. I want you to take a few breaths, right, few breaths you did share with me. I'm going to throw you under the bus to our listeners straight away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you went for a swim before because that kind of chilled you out and just that gets your zen on. But you were telling me about three minutes ago your heart rate right now is a one hundred and twelve. What is it right now? You have a check right now? One?
Ah. That's hilarious.
Well mate, you're not the first one. You're not the first one to be nervous on a show. But I appreciate you coming on for having a chat. And look, everyone, I don't say this lightly, but I've met I've met a lot of people. Of course, I've had hundreds of people work for me. I've trained tens of thousands of humans. I've lectured too. I don't know how many online millions around the world, hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, probably hundreds.
And this guy is an interesting guy. And I don't want to put too much pressure on you, but sometimes I meet people that I like and I resonate with and we're like a little bit of a you know, we're nothing alike, but we're everything alike, a bit a bit out of the box. And Scott is probably a nicer human than me, So there's that.
It's mate.
I enjoyed catching up with you yesterday. We we're recording this Saturday. Okay, how my eyes going one? Eight pm Saturday in Melbs and we caught up yesterday for a coffee.
Yes, thanks for the coffee, Thanks for the chat. It was fun.
It was lovely. Thank you very much for inviting me early. But I get up early like you do, so it was cole. That was only downside to yesterday. It was a bit cold getting in the car car was a block of ice. I live up in the mountain, so I had to run the car for a little while to get it warm and then listen to a podcast on the way to see you. So it was good.
And you know what I love is you said like we were going to catch up, and yesterday was a catch up day, and I think you sent me a message of the day before and said, maybe you're still good for tomorrow, and I went, because you know, I got the fucking memory of a wombat, and I went, well, I knew that we were catching up. But then I sent you a message did we make a time because it wasn't in my diary?
And You're like, no, we didn't.
And then so I said to you, graciously, can we do seven hundred because that suits me?
Yes?
And then you, without even batting an eyelid, went sure, not me, not realizing that you live in fucking upper come back the west and it took you an hour and a half and you got up at stupid o'clock to have some caffeine with me. But thanks for making the epic journey.
It was lovely. I like to get up earlier, and I like to drive, and you know, I drive from where I live on a regular basis down to the ocean to swim. So being up that early, I think, is like it's a privilege. It's like a special club. Not everyone gets up there early, and you get to watch the day start and the only other people are up that early are mad like yourself, They're going to work or they've finished work. So I think it's a nice time. I like that time of the morning.
How long you been doing this swimming in the ocean early in the day thing.
I've always been an open water swimmer. But when I was diagnosed with cancer, it was in the middle of COVID and obviously we'll talk about that later. But I wanted to get in the water, like I wanted to put myself in cold water every day. So I live in Mount Macedon and it's about an hour to the nearest beach, which is Williams Sound, So I would get up at four o'clock in the morning, drive to wim Sound Beach pretty much every day for two or three years and get in the water.
That's crazy, that's crazy, but that is also commitment.
Did you have some I mean going to dive into everything so there's no hurry, but I mean I probably should say upfront that you're a paramedic among other things. But you've got significant obviously medical medical training and medical knowledge. And when you got diagnosed, did you have a apart from all the treatment or the medical, clinical or the logical kind of did you have in the back of your mind that you were going to open any other doors, any alternate doors, any kind of Yeah.
So what, that's absolutely what did What did that look like? Okay?
So at My older brother had similar cancer to myself, and when I had cancer, both my parents and my auntie were being treated. A very very good friend of mine has had some pretty good success. He's a natural path he's got his own practice, and I had a like I got told Tuesday, the twentieth of January twenty twenty at five o'clock. I was on the phone to him at seven o'clock talking to him about some things
I could do. So I did. I was a vegan for twelve weeks, which is really really hard because I love meat, but I wanted to give my body the best chance possible. I did lots of meditation. I've always been a bit of a I've always liked meditating, but I did lots more of it. I did yoga. I've always done yogat I just literally did lots more of it. And I just tried to remove lots of things out of my life that were not kind to me. So I'd stop drinking coffee, which was crazy because I love coffee.
I didn't touch alcohol, and I started getting in the water every single day for multiple reasons, Like I was still training, like I was still doing CrossFit, I was still swimming a lot, so I was quite sore and along with some of the more what people would perceive to be traditional treatment that I was receiving, like it had lots of side effects. So I was quite sick a lot, and I lost, unfortunately lost. I lost twenty six kilos along the way, and I've never had a
lot of weight to lose. And that was my skinny Scott stage. There's a couple of photos of me, which now upon reflection, are quite funny because people go like, who's that, and you go, well, that's me, that's do my Kate Moss, cocaine and cigarette stage. So your question was, you know, was I willing to open the door. I certainly wanted to live and I certainly want to try as many things as possible. And I read a lot and listened to podcasts and met people who were on a similar journey to myself.
What do you I mean this is a door I open a lot, but the you know, the mind, body emotion, like the impact of who you hang around your environment, being in nature, you know the quality of your thoughts, like trying to manage your fucking mind, because you know that being scared and anxious and producing adrenaline and cortisolan getting trapped in that fucking well. You know that that's
the antithesis of what you want. But at the same time, if you've ever got a reason to panic and be stressed, that seems.
Like a good reason.
How long did it take before you could kind of find that calm.
One of the things I love about your listening to your podcast is I think your questions are really well thought out, and it's it's lovely when you ask people really good questions because then you go, oh, wow, that's such a you know me, I look at it and go, well, it's such a clever thing to ask. And this this question is is brilliant because I at one stage was
obviously you know, having chemo. When you've been a room with a bunch of people having chema, right, some of those people would take their their chemo medication on their IV pole outside and smoke cigarettes And I said, yeah, which for me, like it was just like I really
really troubled me. And sometimes I would try to talk to the people that because you're in these big couches and you know it's not going on, and I would try to engage with them and have a bit of a chat with them about what they were doing, to see if there was anything that I could do. And it sounds crazy, and there's probably people who have been a similar situation to myself, but there were people it was almost like a pissing contest. Like I would say, hey,
you going you know, my name's Scott. What are you in here for? Which is a little bit of a joke.
And people say to me, oh, mate, I've got stage four fucking mustasousies on my lungs, I've got a brain tumor, and fuck, may you know?
And they really had already given in, and there was they were sort of almost bragging about how serious their illness was. And these are the similar people that would then go and smoke cigarettes or consume alcohol or not, in my opinion, really help themselves. And so I wanted to remove myself from that. So I started having my chema orally because I didn't want to be in that situation anymore. And I didn't tell like I told no one I was sick for almost nine months because I
didn't want sympathy. I didn't want people to treat me different. I wanted to go to work. I wanted to work as hard as I could. I was still doing night shifts. I mean, I legitimately was sometimes ironically going to people who were not as sick as me. And when some of my colleagues found out, that was like a running gag with us, Like we would go to see someone and they would say, but this dude's not sick as you, Scottie,
and I'd be like, Nah, they're probably not. But I tried to surround myself with lots and lots of positivity, Like I would go and have dinner with people. We would talk about everything other than being sick. Like I would go to people's houses and cook for them because I love cooking and it's a thing that I do that makes me feel good about who I am and it's a gift to someone. So I purposely set out I would go to people's houses and make them exceptionally
nice food. I wouldn't be able to eat a lot of it some of the time, but I would go and see music. I made sure I spent as much time as possible with my daughter, with my brother, and you know, especially my brother, who was incredibly supportive during that time. We would walk the dogs, you know, I would ride my motorbike when I could. I would try and do everything. Myunitude was, this is a marathon, and I've ran marathon. So let's not sprint at the start.
Let's just get into a groove and we'll reflect on this until three years time. We'll look back on this process and say, yes, I went through that, and now I can tell you a story about it.
And I want to talk for a little bit about fear. And fear is such an interesting part of the human experience because you know, it's like it's like, well, one, we need fear because there are times where it keeps us safe, but then there's other times.
Where it keeps us trapped. Right.
It's kind of this dichotomy of sometimes fear is a really valuable kind of part of the human experience or emotion in the moment, depending on what we're talking about, and other times, you know, it keeps us trapped in the psychological emotional behavioral prison of shit. What about for you did you did? What role did fear play? How scared were you? What did you do with that? Is it about being courageous? Is it about being a little
bit delusional? Or is it about going you know, like I all I can control is what I do, So I'm going to do my best to focus there.
Yes, I mean I think you know, fear and courage. Courage is such an interesting thing, you know. Courage is knowing the thing you're going to do is going to hurt, but doing it anyway. Yeah, you know, and stupid. It is the same thing. That's my life, right, So that's interesting. Yeah. So I did go through a period where I thought what would happen if I if I died? And it was more about what would happen with my daughter? What would happen with my brother?
You know.
And I was quite pragmatic about it. You know, we put some things in place, literally sat down wrote the whill change things with my house so my daughter gets it when she turns twenty five, Like, we set up like an investment account for her. And once the pragmatic stuff was done, and I and I was, you know, I probably was more let's say nine months in it, I was getting better. I was starting to put on
weights and stuff. I was no longer afraid. But I've never really been that scared of They think I'm scared of is failing, you know, And that's been instilled in me since it's a small child by my parents, you know, like I don't like to fail. So the irony was for me, Like obviously if I had died because of cancer, then I would have failed to fix it. So my attitude was, what, we will just keep going. We'll just keep hitting this thing with a big hammer until I
don't have to do that anymore. But once I wasn't frightened, I was free. So then I continue to go to work and I continued to teach, and I started making plans, like, you know, I wrote a book, Well then that that has to be released and you have to promote it and all that kind of stuff. So my attitude was, I think I'm going to be okay now, so let's get on with living.
And you said that one of the byproducts of your childhood was that you were scared of failure.
Yeah, I've like my Unfortunately, my parents went that kind to me when I was young, Like I had quite a violence upbringing, and you know, my dad was a very tall big man, and he'd been in the military, you know, he'd been in He flew choppers in nine
Squadron in Vietnam. He'd done two tours. Our very early life was on Air Force bases, and he ran the house like that, which I think, while we get up early and while I can polish shoes and iron a shirt, but also he instilled in us this insane work ethic, like if you weren't working, you were being lazy. So I and then unfortunately for me or you know, some people say it's fortunate, but like, I can't stop, and
I have. I've had these conversations with very close people for me and say, oh, you know, you could always stop and do what you like, Like why would I stop? I like, I like this pace?
So yeah, yeah, are you? Are you obsessive?
It all depends. And then I think the word obsessive is quite interesting because I think if you pour energy into anything, like if you wanted to learn to play guitar, and you every day got up and played it for ten minutes, after six months, you'd be quite proficient at it. If you continue to do that after a couple years, you'd be amazing at it. And no one would say to you, Oh, that's a bit obsessive. People would be
impressed with that. If you do the same thing with start or something else, it's not deemed as to be as special. So I have. When I wanted to become a paramedic, I was obsessed with it, and I just studied because I had to learn to read. I learn to do all this stuff, and someone was quite challenging. So I was obsessed about it. And when I when I qualified as a paramic, I want to be the
best paramedic I could be. So I continue to study, and I continue to seek out training, and I traveled to spend time in other places and work as a paramedic in other places to hone my craft the same as I did when I was a chef. I you know, I didn't see it any differently.
What do you mean you had to learn to read well?
So yeah, I forgot okay, So when I was like, I only had a year ten pass which and then when I went to UNI, I really couldn't read well and I can't write. I can't spell, like that's my writing is atrocious because I can't spell. So I'm nervous about spelling the word wrong. So I just squiggle it like a doctor. But my first year at UNI, all my every single thing I did or my assignments were written on pen and paper because I couldn't use a keyboard and so and then I would submit them like
literally stacks of paper. And after a couple of months they said, I got you know, the spelling's atrocious. So I had to learn to spell. And I hired a pa, a lady who sat me down and showed me how to write properly and how to spell and how to. And then after a first year I'd done really well and they said, you can't do this anymore. You have to do it like everybody else, and you have to submit it and put it through, turn it in and
do it on a computer. So I had to spend I spent three months with a year ten tutor teaching me how to use a computer and how to you know, how to reference, how to I when I was shown paste and copy, oh my god, like I thought that was magic, Like I thaid, oh my god, what is this you know? So for me? So that was that was in my second year. I had to do it like everybody else.
And Mate, I love that story and like the reason that I don't know if that's comfortable or uncomfortable for you, but I don't care if it's uncomfortable to you.
For you, I'm going to be honest, fucker.
But what I love is that here's this guy who you've been a chef, you've done all these other things. Will maybe talk about chefing in a minute. But so how old were you when you started university for the first time?
Thirty two?
Okay, So you're going to YUNI.
Everyone else's working on a computer and researching on a computer and submitting all their shit and they know how to, you know, cut and paste and do emails, and you're back there in the back room with butcher paper and a crayon.
Yeah right?
How good is that?
Though?
That?
Like you were a guy.
Who was not at all and I don't mean intelligent, you're clearly intelligent, but you weren't academ in that sense, right, yes, And then you became an academic and now now you teach in university.
Right yeah?
I find that. I still that's still it wouldn't matter, Like you know, next week, I find myself parked in a university car park, go and I can't believe I am teaching, like I still still to this day, even though I'm doing my master's, I can't believe I teach. And that is interesting, Like, and I have a very special place in my heart for older students who are having a crack. Like we had a student eighteen months
ago who was in his late forties. He's now a qualified paramedic in his early fifties, and he's you know, if he's listening to this, he knows who he is. He's an exceptional human. He's got kids, a wife who obviously was clearly massively supportive of him doing that. But yeah, I when I you know, at the first week of first year, looking to a sea of one hundred and twenty kids, and there will be people in there that will be you go, oh my god, I reckon they
are a mid thirties. I reckon that person's late forties. And you have a good chat with them about what they're doing and their journey and the travel they had to go through to get to where they are. And it's for me, it's I tell all. I said to them, Well, I started when I was thirty three and I had no idea what I was doing. So I think you're going to be fine.
It's what's interesting about I mean, obviously I'm not a paramedic, but I don't so I don't understand. But for me as an observer of you, and we've met a couple of times, spoken a bit, and like the thing that comes across to me is without pissing in your pocket, like your emotional awareness, your emotional intelligence, your social intelligence, your ability to be able to just be sit across
the table from me and have a meaningful conversation. No when to talk, no when to shut up, know what to ask, no, what not to like you can't learn that in a degree, right, And so on the one hand, you've got to go and do this academic process which involves all those academic skills and intellect obviously, and of course we need that. Of course you need the clinical and the medical knowledge and the skills, and of course.
You need all of that.
But then I'm guessing what makes someone a great paramedic because not what they scored on their exams, No.
And it's your insights are always really clever, like on a regular basis, used to do career days. So I would be up at ACU, you know, the university up there, they do the double degree, and you'd be in a room and a lovely set of parents would come up to you and say, do you know, do you think my son or daughter should do the double degree or or just the paramedic degree, And I'll say which one is your son and daughter? I have a chat with them, and then I would offer them a bit of advice.
And having had the privilege of teaching different universities, but the kids, the kids that get come out of a university are far better students than say B university, right, But the end of the day, they've both got the same ticket to the interview. So I've taught kids who are clinically brilliant like they are and will go on to do exceptionally well in whatever field they choose, and
they are a pleasure to teach. I've also taught kids that are just getting by, maybe on the weekends, they work as a tiler, they've got two kids, you know, a partner, or they don't have a partner, they live in a caravan, and they get for one of a better word, shit marks, right, But you know they're going to be an exceptional paramedic and they then go on to B one and so you see them two or three years after you've finished teaching them, and they are
loving what they do, what they are doing, and they're exceptionally good at what they do. And you think to yourself, well, I am a very small part of that. I'm very small cog in a big machine. But I had faith in the process, and that person is now doing the thing that they absolutely want to do, and the society benefits because they are exceptionally good at it.
When you were grown up, what did you think he wanted to do? Did you have any clarity? Did you have a vague idea? Did your old man push you in a direction like what was going on when you were a kid?
So I wanted to be a paramedic from a very young age, but I never thought I was smart enough, and so my little brother and hopefully they came to me talking about this. Was born with a rare genetic disorder called tubluscrosis, so he used to have multiple seizes every single day. He would have been a prime candidate for, say, medical marijuana. So we lived in rural Victoria, and you know, he would have four or five Seagess, it didn't matter where we went. We went to the pub for dinner.
He would have seizures and the ambulance always came. They were always blokes, They was war shorts, and I was always like, you're always a part of it. So he would have been five or six. I would have been twelve maybe, And so I really like them as people, I thought, And you know, my mother especially was on a first name basis with a lot of them, and they would talk her through what was going to happen.
And because me and my youngest brother are so close, I got dragged along a lot and we ended up like like he lived in the Royal Children's Hospital for a year and I missed a whole year of school because I would go and hang out with him, which is why I inavertently couldn't spell, or couldn't do short division, or couldn't write because I missed so much school. But I always wanted to be a param me and I
didn't think I was clever enough. And then I met some very lovely paramedics who I'd ended up doing some work for them and spending time with them socially, and they encouraged me and helped me understand that I could get into university and assisted me getting into university, and I've always felt exceptionally privileged, and I hope that, you know, the last twenty years has paid them back for their for the enthusiasm for helping me.
Yeah, isn't it interesting when you meet someone who does a job, you know, and it could have been I mean, could have been a truck driver, it could have been a neurosurgeon, whatever, it could have been a school teacher,
it could have been. But when you meet one or two or three people who do a certain job and they're cool and they just good humans and they're doing that shit and it looks like this job looks great and they love their job, and they look like they're having fun and they're cool people, and it's like what you really want is, yeah, you want the job, but you kind of want to be one of them.
You kind of want to be like them, right.
I totally agree with that because and you've had Darren Hodge on your podcast, and I got to meet Hodgy and it did something very special for him. I assisted him and his friends with a fundraiser. Sadly to Paramas have been killed and they had come to my cafe to ask from my assistance with raising money, and I ended up helping them a great deal because I wanted to.
I thought it was a genuine thing to do, and we donated all our time and everything, and then I got to hang out with them socially and I said to them, I said, it's going to sound crazy. I'd probably known them about two years, but I want to be a paramedic. And they were like, oh my god, it's got Why do you want to do that? We love coming to your cafe, like you seem to have so much fun there. I said, I wanted to do
it since I was a kid. And like I said, they were incredibly gracious with their time, and they wrote me a reference and organized for me to have an appointment with the Dina Schools at Victoria University. And I didn't know who that. I didn't even know what a Dina school. I had no idea mate, so and they said to me, take this letter and make the guy cake. So I made a cake. And it was at twenty to twelve on a Tuesday in about two thousand and three,
I think, and I knocked on the door. The gentleman said come in, and he said, oh, you're you're Baron's friend. I said yes, and he was exceptional, lovely man, asked me lots of good questions, like what do you intend to do with your business, and explained how it would work. You're married, how does that work? You know? And he literally said to me, he said, what's in the box? I said, Oh, they told me to make you a cake? And he laughed. I'd made it an exceptionally nice chocolate
cake and he opened the box. He said, oh, wow, you didn't have to. I said, oh, they told me to. And it was like a bit of a trick they'd played on me, and that that gentleman was Tony Walker. Wow.
Yeah.
And Tony Walker went on to be the CEO of Emuls Victoria and I didn't know, you know, how that would work, but he had a thing called the Dean's discretion, So he placed myself and nine other people in UNI. Like we got put into UNI the next year and we started, and I'm still very good friends with two of the people. I mean, I'm still pretty good mate with a lot of people I went to UNI with.
But there's a couple of people that were in the same position as me, who'd come from diverse and adverse backgrounds, and he put us into UNI. And you know, I was sitting the guy I become very good friends with. I was sitting next to him. It was the fourth day and they were using they were talking Latin terms, and and we both looked at each other and said, I don't think this is I can do this.
What the fuck have I done?
Like pathophysiology? Yeah, it was very interesting and obviously quite challenging, but I obviously, you know, I must have done well.
Yeah, my first day of UNI, I was thirty six.
Wow.
And it was two thousand, the year two thousand and I was sitting in a computer lab at ACU. I did my undergrade at ACU, my Bachelor of XI Science. I may as well have been sitting on mars, right, And I didn't know. I'm with you, like I didn't know if you had have said type type out the cat sat on the mat, that would have taken two minutes because I would have had to locate every key with my eyes.
Right, yes, and yes, yes, So I'm plunked at a computer and.
A guy says, the guy at the front says, all right, just log on using your student ID. And he might as well have said hana hana haa right, I'm like, I don't know what I don't know what the I don't know what that means. I'm thirty six and literally I can even tell you her name. Her name's Bianca Morasco. She was sitting next to me, seventeen years old, first year student, also late late birthday, and I said to Bianca,
what does that mean? She goes type in so in that, you know, use your cursor, click on that thing.
I'm like, what's a cursor? What's a Like I'm not even.
Being funny right because he had to lean out, she had to lean over and do it for me, and like me looking at my lanyard which had my student ID with fucking thirty two numbers. Yes, that's where I started as well, and I was yeah both times I started, like with my PHDM with that, I yeah, straight away thought what have I done? Like this is just going to end up in humiliation and embarrassment because I don't, you know, it's like my egos like you don't need to be here.
You're already going, Okay, what the fuck are you doing here?
I certainly had moments like that because at the time I had three cafes in the catering company and I was very very well known in that area, and our cafe was very well known, and I did on a pretty regular basis. I think I'm just going to quit because I don't need this kind of shit in my life. Like I really did think that, And but I did have some distinct advantages, like being older was I believe it was an advantage. Like I like, I had a job.
So many of my classmates who then become my friends, and you know, and then you know, ten years later, you're going to their weddings and you're holding their babies and all that kind of stuff, and then you're watching them go through pro senses that you had gone through already. You know, you'd already had a mortgage, You're already you know all this stuff. So you know, I would just
bring food. So I would just bring food. Literally, I would work all weekend at the cafe and just bring food and on Monday, and so our study group just was like I some some beautiful people, Like I said, I can't episence enough, so good to me. And still my mates literally sat down and I'd say, have some las onnion and they'd say, sure, I will show you how to read a twelve at ECG, I would just feed them and I'd say, come to my house, come to my house, don't study at home, come to my house
and I'll feed you. And they literally there's a couple of guys that stuck by me. And we then started on the road together. So this is beautiful photo of the four of us and everyone is still a paramedic. But we started on the road together, and we started at UNI together, and we're standing in the front of the house where we did all our study, which was my house because you know, no one had a house, and all we would do is is eat food and
do scenarios and argue about a cute palm redeemer. Yeah for two years, you know, of course.
But but isn't that That's the beauty of it, right, is just hanging out with people who are doing what you're doing, and probably people who at some bits of it are better than you, right, and some bits you're better than them.
Right. You've got skills and knowledge and a.
Kind of intelligence they don't or maybe to the same level. And then also vice versa. So between the fouria you kind of drag each other up.
Oh yeah, absolutely, Craigan. I couldn't emphasize that enough. Like you know, one of the guys, Daniel Ja, we used to call him the cardiologists because everything to do with the heart. He was just so amazing at it. So he become the cardiology guy. And then I had a very good scene sense, and I had very good control with my voice and how to command people and how to get them to do stuff. But that's because I
just spent fifteen years in the kitchen. So when we would run scenarios, I would say, oh, you know, if you talk this, if you say that word, the people will be more inclined to do what you ask. And then, you know, one of the other guys was just amazing
with pharmacology and even just explaining stuff like you know. So, yeah, we were very fortunately we had this great diverse group of people, all varying ages, like daniel j was nineteen, I was thirty two, you know, so and we spent quite an intense amount of time together because you're at school together and then literally after school you're studying together, and then you're you're fretting about each other as you go into an exam, and then you're asking how you went,
and then after two years you're applying for jobs, and we're all sat by the phone waiting to get interviews with the ambulance Victoria, and then we waited to get our letters and then we you know, forty two of us, all who had spent you know, two years inn together, got picked up and all started on the same day and they all qualified together. So I honestly believe that that situation helped me incredibly because I always had someone to talk to.
Yeah. Yeah, we.
Romanticized is not the right word, but we we maybe like some jobs, like being an ambo such a cool job, paramedic. You know, it's like you're out, you're saving lives and it's like you're at the coal face of you know, when you're hacking. And all of that is true. But at the same time, a lot of that equals trauma.
Yes, And so tell me about the you know, you don't need.
Specific instances, but generalize, like because you're dealing like often under immense pressure in difficult situations, complicated situations with a broad range of variables, and there are only certain people who are good in that. You know, you might have the most brilliant person theoretically who's a fucking disaster actically like, I.
Don't know if you. I think you probably have heard the term flow, Like I absolutely believe in flow. I believe when you and I've done that when I've been in the kitchen. I've done it when I race motorcycles, and I've had it when I've been working on an incredibly sick patient and things do seem to for me personally, and I've had this conversation. I've given this presentation lots of times about how things work for me in an intense or high ten post situation, things slow down. It
sounds crazy, but that's how my brain works. I think it is a bit of a superpower. And I've talked to other people about it. So you know, in the middle of quite an intense situation, you have to think three or four steps ahead. So you go where they're going to park the fire truck, where they're going to land the helicopter. Who are we going to rendezvous with?
Where are we going to do that? Will there be lighting, will be a good place to park, And you'll be doing that while you're doing a drug calculation and talking to your partner about Because I verbalize every single thing I do. I used to I used to do it same thing when I was cooking, because I would say, oh, we're going to go with this table, so I just change it to this. What's going to happen next, we'll canulate the patient and then we're going to do this.
We'll put an airway in, we'll ventilate. While we're ventilating, you go and get the car. Blah blah blah blah blah. So there's certainly been situations where I'm in the middle of that, gone, I don't know how the fuck I got here. I'm just some dude from some kid from the bush mate who likes to drive fast. This is way too much for me. But then you start looking for an adult and you realize the adult. Then you go, oh, that's right, I'm the adult, and you realize everybody's looking
at you. And that's the thing that we do discuss with our students. Like when you put on the uniform, which I believe is a privilege to wear, no one prepares you. We try to do it at school, but no one prepares you for the gravity of who you now are. And that can be something as simple as you're standing in line waiting you get a coffee. Yeah, it's and someone comes up to you to grab your hand and say, oh my god, I wanted to say thank you, and you say, oh, okay, I probably wasn't me.
And they may tell you a little story and say, well, as a matter of fact, I know those people. I work very close to that branch that you're talking about, and I think I know who you're talking about. I will have a chat with them. I will tell them that you say thank you, and that people say, oh, you know, thank you so much for the work you do.
And you know, people will offer to buy your coffee and I'm sorry, please, don't you know you don't have to do that, or people will literally move to the side so you can get to the front of your queue.
That kind of stuff can be a bit much sometimes, Like so, you have to be very aware that once you put the uniform on that it comes with this very heavy level of responsible and behavior, like you can't doesn't matter how much you're aching for a beer, you can't go have one in uniform, even if you've finished, you know, just because of the public's perception of what you're doing.
Yeah, I completely get that.
Just HARKing back momentarily to your comment about flow one, moment wheregular civilian like me would you would never think you'd be in flow is when your training partner dies right in the gym and I remember like this, like almost, ah, what's the word like illogical calm?
Yes?
Why am I not freaking out? And why am I just you know? And I don't know maybe that's not by the way, I'm not taking any credit for that anyone.
I don't know, like I didn't. I'm not fucking special.
I've never but I just did in that moment for the seventeen minutes that he was somewhere else, ye you know, and the eleven minutes before the Ambos got there, it's like, oh, it.
Was just very and yeah, you're right.
It's like a time vortex, right, it is like everything goes slow and and I'm I'm telling people to do stuff like nobody would come and help me because every one freaked out.
Yes.
And then in the end there was one guy looking at me and I said, what's your name? And he told me his name. I won't say his name, I'll just say Darren. I said, Darren, I want you to come over here now, and I'm not asking, so get over here.
And he went yep.
And then he came over and I said, you just do this and you're doing great, and yeah, but it's it's and I mean, you know, I've only pulled back the curtain one millimeter compared to what you've done. But that is I think you said to me when we're chatting, something like, I know this aren't these aren't words out of your mouth. But bringing people back from the dead is like a bit addictive. Ye, making dead people alive again is addictive.
It is. And people who say it's not a lying
because I've done it obviously so many times. When it works, when you come down off that high like it's it's it's hard, especially if things went very well and very smoothly, and and and everything happened when it was supposed to, so that the two minute marks, something happened, at the four minute marks, something happened that you have trained for for a long long time, and especially if you're working with people who are just like you, who've been on the road for a while, and that no one has
a raised voice, you're no one as a race heart rate literally and hey, mate, is anything you do that awesome? He wants to canulate. Can you cmulate for me, Thanks so much. And I have had the privilege of being in those situations where someone who was dead is now alive and yeah, look that's it's such as it is addictive.
And then and then you have to let it go because obviously that doesn't work out all the time, and you have to be very careful because you will then go to someone and you will have a bit of confidence about you and that you can't resuscitate them. And it's not because you've done something incorrectly. It's because they were never going to be retrievable, and that you know, for a lot of our students, the first time that happens, it's a big thing for them.
Yes, yes, mate, I was wondering about is it possible, like when somebody is will jump out of the paramedics in a moment, because there's so many other things I want to get to, but make this the last one in this space. But I think about you know how we were talking about, somebody can go through do the course flying colors, yes, hds or whatever the equivalent scoring system is, you know, high distinctions blah blah blah, but then not necessarily be good at all at the job.
What training or conversations, if any happened around the real world. Forget all the clinical and the medical and do this and put that in there and dut that up. But all the emotional and psychological requirements of doing the job, like I know, nothing can prepare them for the job as well as the job of course, but is there anything.
So at the university we have a thing called death Week where all the patients die and you get taught how to give a family notice, and you get taught how to discuss what will happen next, because for a lot of people they have no idea, so they apart from that. So when you start on the road, you have a clinical instructor. And if that instructor is good. And I remember the first you know, dead person I was involved with my instructor. It was a lovely guy
and I just watched what he did. I listened to the tone of his voice and said, that is the benchmark for me, and that he's the benchmark for me forever, and I want to be that good. But I was fortunate because I was surrounded by exceptionally amazing people. Some of them are still working, some of them are you know. Went on to be my very good friends, and I worked with them quite a lot over the last twenty years.
Is there anything official? I would say no, certainly you will find that people when you go to do something, someone like I remember the first time I had to give notice, right, So I had to so I ran this arrest. That's the first time I was running an arrest, right. So I was in charge. I was on the airway, I was in charge, and Micah turned up and my CI pointed at me and said he's in charge. And I was absolutely shitting myself. And I say, an eighty
something year old male on the floor. He'd been pulled out of his bed and he was in cardiac arrest. So we're working on him. So after about twenty minutes, my clinic constructions said to me, do you think it's time for the chat? And I was like, now, the chat is when we're going to decide to stop to we are going to decide to cease for suscitation on that patient. And so what you have to do is you have to go and have a chat with the family.
You have to go and tell them what's going on, and you have to use the big words, and you have to explo to them that we're going to keep going for another ten minutes. That's what's called the ten minute chat. But there's a high probability that that person we will not be able to resists to take successfully.
Right.
So it was a summer and I was covered in sweat and we'd taken our shirts off, and everyone was covered in sweat. And I got I stood up and might see. I picked up a towel, throw it out, and he goes, clean stuff up, please, he is put shirt back on, and he goes, remember what you're going to say, because those people are going to remember it forever.
Yes.
I was like, oh, that's heavy. But he was also like, you know, one of my favorite people in the world. And I learned heaps from him, and I respected him and I'd seen him do it. So my added my goal and my attitude was I want to deliver this information as clear as possible, but with as much empathy as possible. So so these people have been married for
fifty years. So the wife was down in this room, which was like a little library, and she was sitting in this big, light blue chair and the whole room was cut arounded by books. And I walked in and I said to her, this is what's going on, but at the moment, it appears that we will not be able to successfully resuscitate your husband. However, he's getting the best care that he could get, like he's getting the same level of care that he would get in a hospital.
But things are working against us, and we will stop resuscitation in about ten minutes. And this lady got out of the chair, an amazing, beautiful, frail old lady, and she gave me a hug and she said, thank you so much. You guys are working so hard. And I was like, whoa, okay, And obviously it was quite emotional for me. I was probably crying, I think. And then I have to walk back down the hall and go back into the room and say to my colleagues, yeah, yeah,
I've had the chat. The family is very aware that we're going to stop, and they're like cool, okay. And so when I have students, I explained, I tell them that story and explained, this is the deal that works. Just remember know these people are going to remember exactly what you say. They're going to remember it forever, regardless of how old they are, you know, and they'll always they will always remember how nice you were and what you said.
It's incredible, man, And that's like such a it's like a privilege and almost a burden.
I believe it's a privilege, like I have had the privilege of, you know, delivering babies, so being the first person that someone sees. And I've also been with people who are dying and they know they're dying and they're looking at you. You know they're dying, they know they're dying. They're looking at you like it's okay to let me die, and you're you maybe fighting for them to live, but
they are looking at you like it's okay. And that that is heavy and you can't prepare for that, Like what your response to that is sometimes interesting because I remember the first time I cried. I was ashamed to be crying because I wanted to be a good paramedic
and I certainly did not want to. But once again, the person that I was working with, who's lovely man, like I still mates with him, like he's one of my heroes, he pulled me aside and said, mate, you know, we just sadly, you know, pulled an eighteen year old girl out of a damn and that's sad, mate, and she's dead now that you should If you weren't crying, I would be you know, I would think there was something wrong. And I was like okay, and I was blubbering.
I wasn't just crying like you know, I was blubbering because because that was my case and I was trying to write the case sheet and I had to ask all these quite clinical questions and it just overwhelmed me. It was like this this thing that came over me and just emptied me, and I just started crying and I had to leave the room. And then you know, my colleague came out and just spoke to me in such a lovely way and said, mate, this is normal, this is it's not you know, life sometimes sucks, and
we did the best we could do. We did the best we could do. Yeah, and that's what you need to understand. And yeah, so yeah, you like yeah, some some I think what we do is amazing. Five percent. It's terrible. But if it was the other way around this, no no one could do it. It's no way.
Yeah, I'm with your partner. I mean, if you were going through that and you weren't upset, I'll be like Scott, he's a sociopath. I'm like, oh no, give me the fuck away from him. Yeah, man, that.
That is that is super duper hard. One last thing.
What you said, like, sometimes you're with someone and they you're the last person they see and they're dying.
You know they're dying. They know they're dying.
And they look at you and almost give you permission to let them go, or they go to you somehow it's okay, like almost allay, your I don't know, yes, you're I don't know pain or something like tell me about like how do you not?
I don't know.
I'm just interested in that when somebody.
Yeah, I've certainly been holding people's hands who look at you like you they want you to stop what you're doing, right, and they squeeze your hand and they're like, yeah, you need to let me go, especially obviously with much much older people. Yes, you know, and yeah.
They kind of are they kind of saying to you, mate, it's okay.
Yes, yes they are for sure. And once again, if if you were to ask someone who's been on the road ten fifteen years, I guarantee they'll say the same thing. Because I've OUs obviously had this conversation with my friends, Like, I think it's fair of me to speak this way because this is for me. Amongst my colleagues and peers, it would be some people will tell you it's common,
like they've had the same experience as me. So I guess if no one talks about it, then people who have the experience will go as a bit weird, whereas I think you should talk about it because I don't think it is weird.
Like, is there any.
Is there any you know how you said, when you're doing your job, you're in the moment, you're fluid, You're kind of solving multiple problems. And so I'm doing that right now in the podcast. So this is my current plan. Right, I'm not solving any problems. I'm just thinking because we're coming up to an hour. Yes, and we've literally spoken about three percent of your life. Well not free, but do you know what I mean, there's so much stuff.
So this is my current plan. I think we're going to talk for another five or so pull the pin, and then I think we're going to do another one and talk about everything that is not ambulance fictori or paramedic involved.
So is there any remnants of.
Trauma grief PTSD lurking that you need to kind of navigate. I mean, you've been in a lot of stuff that probably you know one thousand what the average person sees in a lifetime.
So I have PTSD like I got diagnosed six six years ago, like I have nightmares like it doesn't sometimes it doesn't affect them. I have no problem going to work and putting on my uniform because I love it. But I certainly I sometimes lack the empathy with some patients. And unfortunately I got assaulted. I actually I got beaten up. I had my gaw dislocated. I ended up with a
traumatic brain injury. I had my ribs broken. I literally had the shit kicked out of me by a patient, and which ended my single respond to career, which I loved. I absolutely love doing that job. I was to drive orf get flown to a town really far away, like six hours away, and I'd live there for a week and you would be on care for twenty four hours a day. And that was, without far, my favorite job ever.
And when I got assaulted, I had to stop. I wasn't allowed to do that anymore, and that made me incredibly sad because I generinely feel the people of rural and remote Victoria deserves the same level of care as the people of Footscray or Coburg or Hampton. So that and that is a very uncommon role, like to be a rual believer, you know, but I loved it, and I did some of my absolute best work by myself or working with a volunteer which we call ACOS, which
is still a program that's running, you know. So So to answer your question, like, definitely, everyone that's done ten or fifteen years has some form of trauma associated and how they deal with it where they do deal with it positively, like go swimming, go running, play guitar, do lots of lovely good things, take a break, travel, or whether they do it which I would suggest negatively, like vast consumptions of alcohol, or I looks at substances and
stuff like that, like I don't think that's cool. I've never thought that's cool, Like you know, getting pierced and getting blind drunk. The issues are the same when you wake up the next day. Whereas I think if you go surfing that dopamine hit that you're looking for, you get it. So I think it's a little bit gentler on you to do that kind of stuff. But yeah, like I see a shrink. Basically, she saved my life. I absolutely love her, you know, I still see her.
A lot of my mates see shrinks. We talk about it's a bit of a joke, a bit of an ongoing gag, you know, like you'll get into the car here you being it's gotta oh yeah, good mate, how's the shrink? Eh? Cool? What is what we've been talking about? It's healthier, way healthy, way healthier than iiding it and saying to people, no, I don't see a shrink, which is absurd because you've been in a room at twelve paramedics, eight of them will be seeing someone.
And probably twelve of them should be absolutely and I'm.
Sure that's similar numbers to police, to nursing and some other aspect like maybe fieries as well.
Now we're going to talk about this next time, but I want to plug it anyway while we're here. The tails and troubles of her Ratio Jones and he's continuing, and he's continuing, sadness. Yes, now I've had a glimpse. I've read for about an hour. It's I haven't read the whole book. I'm not, but it's bloody. It's bloody great, it's and you've it's good. It's on a slow burn. You've sold thousands of copies. People are just discovering it. Can you just give our listeners? And we didn't get
him on here for this. This is in fact, I almost forgot all about it. But I thought he's written a book. We definitely, in fact, he's written two books.
We should just give us a snapshot of what the book's.
About, Okay, say, the main character is a girl named Constantine. She's a photographer and she gets given like a portfolio of writers. And one of those writers is a gentleman by the name of Horatio Jones, who is a bit of a recluse and flatly refuses to have anything to do with her. So she's sort of chasing him around Europe, because the whole book said in Europe, because every year I go and live in Europe. And he without giving too much of the story away, because you know, you
should read the book. You know they did this whole thing of playing chasy around Europe. And yeah, and it's got some poetry. He's a poet. He writes poetry and It was kind of interesting because obviously I had to become all these different people, which is really kind of cool. And each time they're removed from you, you get away with it a little bit more like a ratio. Jones gets to say shit that I'd like to say, but if I said it, people would think was weird.
Yeah, yeah, this is a thinly disguised message from you.
Yeah. So it was really one of the most interesting things is you know, I've had the privilege of being involved in some writers festivals and you do Q and as and and I had we had some dinners where people had bought the book and then organized for their book club to have me come and we would talk about the book. And I had some beautiful, prominently older ladies say to me, oh, is this true? And I'd say, well, that story is true. That absolutely happened. I was there,
and obviously there's some traumatic stories in there. And they might say, well is that that well I read that thing about this and is that true? And I say, yeah, that happened. I really did. You know. It was sad, but it actually happened. And they would say, I think there's a character in there, and he's a chef and he's got tatoo is I think that's you? And you go, well, I don't know, like why do you think it's me?
You know.
So it's very interesting people's perception of what it is and how it works. And I certainly have had people say to me, oh, you know, I think you did this so you could that character is you and then you get to say that, and I said, oh, look, I didn't overthink it, you know, I just wrote it and thank you very much for reading it, you.
Know, so yeah, and of course you know you wrote it. It's like, even with the stuff that I write that's not fiction, but it's still you coming, you know, even my messages on an Instagram, it's still it's still an expression of who I am.
You know, go on.
I was going to say, yeah, what for me is what is lovely? And it's been people say, oh, that poem you wrote, it's got this amazing so lovely, and I'm like, thank you. Think it means a lot because you know, one of my very good friends who was the first, one of the first people to read it, rang up and said, mate, I read the book. It's amazing. Did you write the whole thing? And I went yeah, even the poetry, And I went, yeah, where did you
think I got that from? Like, Gus, the poetry is amazing, I went, thank you.
Isn't it funny how there's this little dude who works at seven to eleven near the gym where I train, and I don't know how old he is, twenty and he figured out I don't know how I didn't tell him. He figured out who I am, not that I'm anyone, but and now he follows me on Instagram and every day I come in, I get a coffee, usually which I try and get a coffee because I'm going to come home and study or research.
Or writes or whatever.
And yesterday I went in, I got a coffee and he goes, can I ask you a question?
I go, yeah. He goes, all the things on your Instagram? Do you write them? I go. I'm like, it's got my fucking name on it.
Yeah.
I go, yeah, yeah yeah, And.
He goes, but but like all the words, like at all the words your words, like like it's kind of insulting me and a little bit like because you look too fucking stupid, and like I don't know what that though. You know, people who don't know me and they just see my shit and they think, gee, this is quite whatever, clever or philosophical or helpful or yes, and then they meet me.
It's like a disappointment because.
I definitely, I definitely have had that, but more from people that I know, never from strangers, more from people know me for a long time, have come to me gone, I heard you write a book. And I'm like, I love when people say that, because you go, well, clearly you heard that, and you probably have gone to the website, and you know I did, right because there's clearly pictures of me on the website. Right. I didn't build the website. Someone did it for me, an amazing job.
Right.
So then I'm always interested in what comes next and they go, I just really wrote that book and you think, nah, dude, like I didn't, even though it's got my name on it.
And there's heaps of stories in there, and if you read them you can clearly it's me, you know, So that part of it has it has been sometimes quite funny because I think people would look at you, maybe maybe the people that look at you personally, so they look at Craig Cark and they go big guy lifts heavy things, well, probably can't be that smart, clearly, because you can't have both, right, and then maybe people look at me and go smaller guy covered in tattoos, Well, straight away he must be
dickare because he's coming to Satday. He's even gotatoos on his hands, he must be That's not cool. Where's nail polish? Fucking not cool? Big ear rings, looks like an old school punk rocker.
Yeah.
I don't want to talk to him, and I wouldn't let maybe my kids talk to him. Kind of vibe. So obviously when you wear a uniform completely different, it is, I think, very conflicting for some people when I come into their house, But once I hopefully want to start talking, they're fine with it, because they normally are. I've never had someone complain, but yeah, for me, that's been the most interesting part, Like when I go to a writer's festival, like I'm maybe not wearing enough long black coats.
Yeah, yeah, no, you need to you need to get a little darker. Hey, I want to ask you, what's your heart rate?
Eighty seven?
Yeah, there it is, Look at you. Hey, he's fucking found his groove. All right, we're going to go, but tell everyone where they can get your book.
Www. Dot Horatio. Is it the underscore the little thing?
Yeah, Underscore Underscore Jones. Yeah, he is the fucking salesperson of all time.
Hey, I am I'm terrible. Yeah you're shit, but that's okay. You'll get better.
I'll fucking coach you. Hey, we're gonna we're going to reboot and do another one and talk about the million other things that you've done. You're just an interesting dude. You're a humble dude. You like you're a good person. I love having chats with people like you. I love catching up yesterday, I love catching up today. I think my listeners will love you. I appreciate you. We'll say goodbye affair, but for the moment, thanks mate, see you soon.
No worries. Thank you very I appreciate you too, and thank you so much for the time you've been very gracious.