#1880 The Psychology of Buying & Selling - Bobby Cappuccio

influenced by situation, circumstance, environment, other people. But yeah, so if you would share that story about I think it's Bartholomew Coulson, that famous British bloke.

just leave names out of this. But it was a major health club chain in the United Kingdom in the EU, I was up late one night before presentation with a couple of my colleagues and we were at the pub, so we were in good spirits and feeling highly creative and I don't know how the conversation got there, but we were talking about how unreliable eyewitness testimony is and when you have gaps in your member, you can, through

the power of suggestion, creatively fill those gaps. So we decided right there in the pub that we were going

to conduct an experiment. And one of the people that we were with was this rough and tumble northern from Huddersfield, and so we were kind of hanging shit on him and we created a character with his namesake, but we called him buff Olomel, so he was buff Olomew Coulson and which we just came up the most outrageous stories, how where he cut down trees to build houses for the poor all by himself, and he raised money by swimming the Liverpool Canals pulling a tug boat with his teeth.

It was just outrageous and we said, okay, So the next few sessions that we go into because we always had this game that we would play. Whatever we were talking about the night before, you had to bring it up in the session. But you couldn't just randomly throw it out there. It had to make sense within the

context of the subject matter. So the next day we would talk about heroics and taking a stand for your tribe, for your company, your member, and we would start to talk about like Bartholomew Coulson, for example, and we would start to spew out the outrageous nonsense that we came up with in the pub, and then at the end of that we would ask the question, so, how many of you actually remember your parents telling you stories because you were probably too young, but your parents probably I'm

sure someone was told the stories about the exploits of the heroic Botholomew Coulson, hero of the working man like clockwork. Ten to fifteen percent of the room would look around and sheepish start to raise their hand, and they weren't lying. They truly believed after hearing this and connecting it to their livelihood, their chosen career, something that had deep meaningful value, that they had heard this story. Meanwhile, we made this

guy up. He was a character that we came up with that I don't know, one o'clock in the morning at the pub.

they called it. It was called Plessi p l E. S I Plessi, And they built this whole story around it, and they set up their store and it was fucking beautiful. They it looked like someone something from you know, Hollywood Boulevard or what's that what's that expensive what's that expensive strip where everyone goes.

eighteen hundred percent and they sell out. All of these people come in all of these high end people, all of these influences, these social media people, these people, these all of these IT people come in and they get these admittedly they look like nice shoes, but they put them in this certain context, on these shells, with the right lighting, with the right ambiance, with all the kind

of accoutrements around the joint. And they sold out and they were selling, you know, fifty dollars shoes for nine hundred dollars, and they were marching out the store. And then once everybody had bought whatever. As people were going out, they were, I guess the crew. They were taking them to one side and explaining to them what had just happened,

and they were just bewildered. And also the amount of people who were like they were speaking as though like people coming out and going, you know, PLESSI is the new whatever, you know, the new goalts here, the new whatever, and they were just talking as though this this brand was the next big thing, and they were they were just ride on the bloody bandwagon and it was just a complete fiction, but they bought into it straight away.

coffee could drink, but it's not that great. Let's be fair, It's instant coffee. And it's like, I'm sure these people really appraised it and believe because of the priming and the expectancy that they were drinking really great coffee, but alas they were drinking just like like kind of bottom and stuff. So how much of our impressions of the world or our own, and how much of that is influenced by things we won't even think about.

And it really bothers some people that some of these Chinese cars are fucking amazing and and people don't even like you saying that, but some of them. So you're getting cars that are the equivalent of one hundred, one hundred and twenty thousand dollars European car that's got everything and more and well built and longer warranty and a whole bunch of other things. But people are compelled, not everyone, because they're really growing in terms of popularity. But there's

still are still a group of people. It doesn't matter. You could put the same car in front of them and say this is German. They would love it merely the fact that they know that it's Chinese. They it's not about the car, it's about where they think it

comes from, you know. And then conversely, you could have a you know, you can get a pretty rude, aimentary BMW here like not a particularly amazing car, like a kind of a lower end, a lower end BMW is going to cost eighty grand, like there are no you know, and and you can get something in a Japanese or Korean or Chinese car for probably about half that price, which in terms of you know, function and operation and features and build quality is the same for half the price.

But nonetheless, and we're not saying that there there are no differences ever in build quality and that. But you know, as someone who's interested in cars and bikes, and yeah, I'm fascinated with the story that, like the car that I bought not that long ago as a high unde and people like, oh my god. Some people, like some of my mates are like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Why would you buy a high undae? And I'm like, is.

emblem is. It just so happens at the type of cars I really like or not very practical. I mean you know that from experience. You talked me out of You and Amy, my wife got together and talked me out of buying that nineteen seventy three Monty Caller. I love that car, but it's like, oh man, that's that's just buying probably a headache. If it's not late nineteen sixties to early seventies American, Muscile, European even I'm not

into it, just not into it. Don't care, So I'll buy a hard day or whatever.

some speakers get paid. But I've been at events where speakers are being paid twenty and thirty thousand dollars for forty five minutes to talk, right, And there are other speeds is on the agenda or on the schedule who are four thousand dollars, which I admit is still a lot of money, but they're better than the person that

they wheeled in from Channel seven or Channel nine. And it's like, oh my god, you're not paying for their speaking skills or the quality of the content, or the experience that the audience will have at this moment in time with this person on stage. You're paying for this high profile on the assumption that you will sell more tickets, which I understand.

an hour trainer. H And it's around perception. So one of the things that just boggled my mind when I first started doing personal training, I think I was like thirty Don't ask me how I arrived at this number. I was thirty two dollars an hour in the beginning, and all I ever got was price objections, just, oh, that's too high, that's too odd. Jay's thirty two dollars.

Thirty two dollars an hour on one of my most loyal clients at that time, was like, yeah, you know, Capuccio, I really love what you do and I could afford it. But for most people, thirty two dollars an hour, that's like, oh yeah, like one hundred dollars a week almost you're gonna you're just pricing yourself out. And once I got out of that environment and I stepped into another environment where it was quite at the different end, and I started raising my prices. The more I raised my prices,

the less price objections. I got to the point where I didn't deal with them. I didn't deal with them because one, they hardly ever came up. Number two, if they came up, I wasn't bothered. Like, if you could find a trainer that that's cheaper, go ahead, you know, yeah, I mean, yes, I do. I do charge more than a lot of the other trainers, and there's a reason why. But it was hard for me to wrap my head around that that perceived value. Like the nine hundred dollars

pair of pay less shoes. It's like, that's a different story because a lot of times when you're paying more for a service, there is something behind that. But I know me, like I wouldn't identical service if the price is too low. I start to get really nervous.

was like the Adam Right. And so I set one hundred bucks for three sessions, which was a rare moment of courage on my part because I didn't think I was worth it, and straight away he went, Yep, no worries, let's start tomorrow. And I felt imposter syndrome because I was at that point in time, so nineteen eighty six, maybe earning twelve dollars an hour as a gym instructor and just stepping into managing the gym that I was

in for maybe fourteen dollars an hour. But I mean the bottom line was, if I had have got twenty dollars an hour, I would have thought I was winning. And I ended up on thirty three dollars an hour, and I thought a couple of I thought, one, I'm not worth this. I'm not that good too. Who the fuck gets thirty three dollars an hour? This is incomprehensible and three. This won't last because you'll figure out I'm

shit any day now, you know. So for me, it was that battle of and I think for our listeners who have their own business or service, especially people who do offer services, you know, and they are essentially selling you know, their time and their skill and their knowledge for an hourly rate. What advice do you have for people who are there who maybe are better than they think and they actually self sabotage their potential earning capacity

because they don't think they're worth it. Like, how do you navigate that?

he in? Was he in? Yeah, he wouldn't say I'm in the fast food business. He said, I'm in real estate and distribution. And he understood the nature of the business when something changed my childhood, not necessarily in a good way, but I was like five years old and I remembered that I must have been like five six years old. It's one of those early memories. And I was sitting in McDonald's and somebody came around and they gave me a chicken McNugget. This is when they were

first coming out, so they were piloting this product. I remember I put this sugary, fatty thing in my mouth. It's probably a lot worse today, and my brain just lit up. I was like, Oh, I want another one of those. The day that Chicken McNuggets were released into the marketplace, they outsold Tyson Chicken, Kentucky Fried Chicken Purdue because they dropped it in a distribution machine and it

periferated like wildfire. Had it not been for that distribution machine and understanding what his business actually was, McDonald's wouldn't be able to have that one billion served, like two million murdered, like all that stuff that they're like really proud of. So what exactly do you sell? And it's not personal training, Like what is it about your knowledge resources, your personality, type, your engagement that really creates value for someone.

So maybe you sell removing the guesswork out of getting the most amount of results in the least amount of time. Maybe it's that you have a keen eye because you do nothing but study joint motion. You study biomechanics every single day, and you could take a look at things that most people can't even notice and make a tweak and either save someone an injury in six months to a year, or you could tweak an exercise to move

them further and faster than anybody else. Maybe it's your ability to build a level of confidence and self efficacy by understanding microprogressions and communicating microwinds to somebody, and the way you communicate with them, that level of self efficacy allows them to take on more responsibility for themselves, whether it's outside of the gym, Like what are they doing the other twenty three hours of the day that you're not with them? What about all the other domain stress management?

What about their sense of purpose, sleep, dietary habits. So what is it that you do not better but differently

than anyone else that cannot readily be duplicated. I think that's an important question to ask another question is like, two years from now, what do you want to be peerlessen Like, if you could somehow evaluate this stat what would put you in the top twenty percent of everyone working within your position today and make that decision, because in the second you make that decision, it's a little bit different than a car cards appreciates some value the second you drive it off the lot. It's not an

investment in any way, shape or form. If you make that concrete decision, what am I going to be among the top twenty percent of all professionals working in my same job role? And what's required to me daily? You're an appreciation you are an appreciating purchase. You're gonna be worth a lot more to that person three six months, a year from now. But you have to establish what it is that you do differently, because it's like, well,

I know functional anatomy. Every trainer should know functional anatomy. You know, well, I understand cadesiology. I understand what happens when you impose load, what happens on the systems biomechanics. Every trainer should understand that what do you do differently? And then you are not your client like your your insecurities in your inner dialogue doesn't have to be put on them like you would come into work and unload all the problems and the arguments you had with your

partner on your client. I mean, most trainers shouldn't. Some trainers would, but you wouldn't do that. So why are you unloading all of your inner baggage by imposing it on them that they're making The appraisal of quality is onlyquality in value when the client says it's value. Your job is to put in as much effort and conscientiousness to constantly raise that potential for perceived value. But you're not the one who appraises that. That's none of your

business and that's irresponsible. Start by asking, just confidently, ask for the sale. After you practice communicating what it is you do and why there is a distinct value in what you do, and then ask.

given time, not necessarily all on the floor. But one of the regular conversations I had with people was because most of the trainers were charged out at pretty much the same rate, which back in the day it was about sixty bucks an hour, and then it would be that's one on one and deer for two and three,

and there was a few variables. But every now and then i'd have a trainer come up to me, which was I kind of admired, but also we had to open the door and have a conversation, and that'd say, I know, I'm worth one hundred dollars an hour, so I want to charge one hundred dollars an hour. And I'm like, and I don't want to discourage them, but like you were saying, really what you're worth per hour is really determined in the short term by what people

are prepared to pay for you. Like if if I go, I'm worth twenty six thousand dollars an hour as a corporate speaker, but no one will ever pay me that. Well, do you know what I'm saying. It's like I'm not

worth that or I can't get that. Maybe in some other context or with more skills or in a different situation, but for where I am right now, And so there is that idea that I think I'm worth two x, but people will only pay one x. So other than other than improving knowledge and skills and competence and all of those variables that are somewhat within our control, how do we influence people or is this even a good question, but how do we influence the potential market from the

outside looking in that we might be worth two x per hour or three or ten x per hour?

to be connected to it to really explain it. If a trainer's out on the floor, if you are studying and applying and making mistakes and correcting those mistakes, hopefully not with your clients, and you're getting better and better

and better at the application. If you're walking the floor and somebody's doing an exercise, let's say a lot pull down, and you could utilize your understanding of appraising movement, taking that appraisal, making tweaks and communicating to the client on a multi century level and verbal level how to execut you based on what you're seeing, and you can get that person to have a completely different experience with an exercise that they've done I don't know, one hundred times,

maybe more. Maybe even they've felt their lats in a way that they have never ever felt them engaged in that same exact exercise.

which practices follow. And one of the principles that has helped so many trainers and I think salespeople overall is the paradox of being completely invested and completely unattached at the same time. Here's what I mean. If you come up to me and you have a question or I don't know, we're in an orientation induction, it's a sale session, let's call it what it is. I am absolutely invested in hearing you. I am completely invested in your experience.

I'm invested in the outcomes that you produce for yourself, whether it's with me or somebody else. But I am completely unattached at the moment whether or not you buy something from me, because I think that's where trainers and salespeople in general start to choke, like I need this, I need to make this sale. First of all, you're not focused on the client. You're in your own head. Once you're come from a place of need, You've got

two dialogues. The one that you're having with a potential client and the one that's in your head and you don't realize it, but your anxiety is leaking out of you. I used to work with this guy. I used to apprentice under him. He's one of these like motivational speakers

and sales trainers and a lot of the domains. This guy was very good, and I thought he was I thought he was a completely tosspot, like the first mentorship that I went to, because he's sitting there and somebody would raise their hand and go, well, what about the objection? And these were people from free enterprise, from all different types of industries, selling all different types of products and services. Well what about when somebody says, well, I got to

think about it, what do you do? And this guy would flippantly look at them and go, I don't know, I don't get that objection. Next and somebody well, well what about the money objection? And he would go, I don't know, I don't get that objection. Next question, and I'm like, what the hell are we paying for here? You're not even answering any of the questions. You'd be a kind of a knock. Well, later on in the summer, he explained why he was doing that. He said, think

about the objection that you're most terrified of handling. Yeah, I guarantee you that's where you get the most objections, because as soon as you get to the point and the presentation where that objection usually comes up, you get fucking weird. Yes, And it's almost like your energy makes

that person very uncomfortable. Because how many of you sell products and how many of you sell services, and the difference between that is, if you're selling a product like I'm selling this coffee cup, I don't need to tell you much about it. If you pick it up. It's designed well, knock on it pretty sturdy. Jeez, I love this cup. It speaks for itself. If you're selling services, which most people selling anything today are, you're selling something

that does not yet exis. You're selling a promise. So there's no separating the feeling and the emotional connection and the safety they have with you and what it is that they're making a decision on buying. So if you get weird every time that objection comes up, yeah, you're

going to have a problem. So if you are completely unattached but completely invested, you're going to speak to somebody the way you would speak to your best mate who you really cared about, if they had the same exact problem, but for whatever reason, they couldn't buy from you, so a yes or no would be irrelevant, but you would

approach them with inquiry, curiosity, compassion, and care. So when you apply coaching skills in a sales situation, I think you're positioning yourself and your client in a much better situation because you're going to have calm, You're going to be more fluid, you're going to be more persuasive. You're not going to nearly create the level of agitation that a lot of salespeople create, and whether you get a

yes or no, you're not going to be deflated. So the next person who comes in, you're actually more insecure, you're more desperate. I mean, think about this. Two twins are living in the same city. They don't really hang out much together, so I'm saying twins. They're identical twins, so we could rule out physical appearance, and they both decide in the same night they're going to go out on their own. One guy walks into a bar, looks

around and says, I wonder who's interested in me? The other twin Crosstown walks into a bar, takes a look around and says, I wonder who I'm really attracted to? Who am I interested in? Which one of those twins is going to go home deflated, crying themselves into a pint of hogandas ice cream from the mass rejection to it. No matter what the outcome is, he'll be fine.

was set up like a commercial gym. So most people, or many people initially anyway, would think they're coming into a place where you buy a membership in a place where there are no memberships, and you get a group exercise timetable in a place where there's no group exercise, and you you know, this whole myriad of assumptions because when you walk in it, there's you know, ten square feet of gym equipment and treadmills and bikes and boxing

rings and like shit everywhere it's amazing. But then people would, you know, I'd talk to people and I never and I think it was because I lacked confidence, or I was embarrassed or insecure, or a mix of all of that. But I never tried to sell anyone overtly. I would talk to them about what we do and why we do it and how we do it, and I would talk about I would even say, look, we're probably not for sixty or seventy percent of the people who want to, you know, go to a gym in inverted commas, We're

probably not for them. But I would always mention, I'd say, look, people who come here generally not elite athletes. That's everyone who walks into the gym right by the way, that they're not an elite athlete. Typically people who struggle, people who want to do it, but struggle to stay consistent and perhaps inspired and motivated. And so we work with the general public, and it's you know, it's not just

about dumbells and bar bells. It's about but let's talk about sleep, let's talk about exercise, let's talk about nutrition, Let's talk about what's going on in your head. Let's talk about what you did and didn't do for the last ten years. And by the time I would just talk to them like I didn't talk about prices. I didn't talk about how often they should come. I didn't talk about contracts. I didn't talk about cancelation policy. I

didn't do any business stuff. I just told a story about the people that trained there, and I knew most people would see themselves in that story. And also i'd say, by the way, if you come and do a session and you think it sucks, that's your first and last session, and we'll give your money back, so you literally here, you can't lose. So if you think no, it's not for me, great, I'll give you money back and then you keep moving on. But even if you think it's great,

there's no contract. We don't do contracts. So you might do a session ten sessions, or you might do ten years. But and people love the fact that there was no overt emotional or psychological leverage. You know, it was not like yeah, but you know, like but just this week, we've got a deal and so that but that runs out Wednesday night. Right now, it's Monday, so you got forty eight hours, but it's normally three x, but until

Wednesday it's one x. And also no joining feasts. So and by the way, and by the Ossie's a very fucking averse to that, you know.

info call, how I structure a presentation. So there's a lot that's not wrong with that at all. However, on the other hand, there's tactics that don't duplicate. And let's be honest, we might not know why Rob is so good. It could be the level of empathy or the tone that he speaks at. It could be something about him that's comforting. And then I go and I apply all those same shitty tactics and I really haven't had the elements to the time to deconstruct exactly why does rob

have such a high closing ratio? And I turn people off. I've never heard anybody say, well, I was going to buy this product, but the salesperson didn't use didn't use cheesy sales tactics, and didn't pressure me and make me feel uncomfortable enough, And I was like, I don't want to do business with a guy like that. It's just asking for the sale. I think is a responsibility if you truly believe in what it is that you're selling.

On the other hand, like what you're doing is guiding someone to a decision, and the more you try to force that decision, the more you're going to do things to bring it about. Harvard Business Review conducted a study on what gets in the way of closing sales, and they found that sixty three percent of salespeople bring about the outcome that they want the least by their own attitudes and behaviors, wow, because they double down on shit and they never stop to go, hey, maybe it's me.

Maybe there's something in my approach that's not exactly working. So, again not mentioning any names, I worked with a major health club chain and they were looking to drive first visit enrollment. And what they meant by that was, when you come into the facility on day one, it's your first visit, what percentage of people in their very first visit to the gym are going to buy a membership? And they wanted to get that number just above forty percent, right,

So that was that was a hard endeavor. So after many months, they went out and they hired a consulting firm. The consulting firm did a brilliant job at analyzing every aspect of their systems and their client experience and engagement. And they came back and said, look, the reason why you're having trouble closing the sale is because you're so absolutely single mindedly focused on closing the sale. When people come into your gym's, your clubs, they had a shit

experience and it makes them hate you. So we would focus more on service and the experience and a little bit less on closing the sale. So like they fired that company because that was not what they wanted to hear. I don't know if you're if you're paying someone seven figures, I would imagine you're not paying that much money to hear exactly what you want to hear. Paradi back to you. That's a waste of money. But that's kind of the attitude.

a really good question. Ask. What I love about your presentation is you put the person at ease to have an open conversation that's going to lead to either a yes or a no, But by the time they leave there, it's going to facilitate a decision. And you factored in all the things that people are so anxious about when they take what for a lot of people is the most terrifying walk from the car to the front door that they have ever taken, and all the things that

they're scared shitless about. You completely nullify that within thirty seconds of walking into your gym, which is why one of the reasons why you were probably so successful speaking to humans like humans.

same positivity and energy. And I don't know how many times, but I would think more than a hundred times I said to somebody who didn't who figured out this is not really for me. I probably want to join a gym and do my own thing. I would say, great, tell me what area you live in and they'd say, oh, I live in Bentley, or I live in Sandringham or wherever, and then I would direct them to a gym and to a person at that gym that I knew. I'd go, Okay, go see this dude right, say that you spoke to me.

Tell them what you told me, Tell them what you want. He's a ripper. Tell him I said, he's great. So I would send them to a competitor happily right, And they're like, what the fuck is this this guy is. He's not getting my money, He's not getting a sale. I'm not joining the gym. I'm not wise. And you would just and I know that sounds strategic and it is a little bit, but it's also genuine. I'm like, well, let's just help them anyway, right, And I would say

somewhere between twenty and thirty percent of the time. I'd like to lie and say it was more, but twenty thirty percent of the time, those people would come back and go, yeah, I did that, but it I just I don't know. I really enjoyed coming up here, and I think I'll give this a go because they had such a good experience not buying our product.

with you. So what you do is you bring in another season salesperson or you bring in your sales manager and then the two of you double team this person and pressure them to the point of either purchase or tears without letting them leave the gym. Yeah, that is what creates the reputation that drives people to being so

defensive in the first place. So we used to hear all the time, but well, like, how do you even greet somebody at the front door, because they would walk up with well, welcome, you know, welcome to x y Z Jim. How'd you hear about us, what brings you in today? And it's like, listen, I don't have time. I have like three minutes. I just want the prices I want to get. It's like why, like you can't

even say anything to someone. Well, it's not because the person walking into the gym knows I'm going to go in the gym. I want to look around. I only legitimately have thirty seconds. That's not the time they're going to choose to go shop gyms. You're creating that because of the reputation the industry has built from those bullshit practices.

And what's really insidious about that is there's so many gyms that you walk into and you're going to get something like the experience you created for your people, Craig, but the reputation casts a shadow on clubs that you probably should join. I mean what turned me around was working at David Barton. I started working with David Barton as his head of training in nineteen ninety eight, just dating myself a little bit, and that was a university

degree in gym one oh one. Learned so many things about attention to detail and experience that served me the rest of my career.