Good a team. Doctor Hannes back on the show, and there's a plus one in the family. We'll talk about that in a moment. But Hi, how are you.
Hello, Coragt, how are you?
It's so good to see you. Hello, everybody, I'm back, Yeah.
It actually is. Really I've missed you. I forgot well. I mean, I love your energy, and I love like when you do this job right, three hundred and sixty five times a year, give or take. Not all of them are with a guest, but most of them are with a guest. Some of them are solos with just Fatty Harps in his flannel shirt. But it's always nice to talk to somebody who's got very good energy. And I'm going to be honest, doesn't make me work hard.
So well, that's good to hear, especially if you're doing seven a day. My god, we were talking offer just a moment a week a week, a week, seven a week, seven a day would be outrageous. I mean, you're already pretty outrageous doing your PhD, doing your speaking gigs, and doing all your podcasts.
It's pretty amazing.
I'm thinking, Craig, maybe you're going to need to pivot into some kind of radio gig. At some point I see that in your future. I'm slightly psychic. I think I see into your future, I see a radio gig.
Well, what, you can't be too psychic. Because I worked in radio for twenty years, I've already done it.
I also have a foot in mouth problem.
I like looking on that. He's well, yeah, I mean, here's the thing about radio. The radio is great. Radio was great training for me and it was a privilege, and you know, you're talking to lots of people, although we talked to lots of people in this show as well. Working in talkback radio, which I did, is pretty good. So on the sports station here in Melbourne, I was like their resident exercise science slight like gy, a little
bit kind of inspiration, information education, high performancey guy. But what's good about talkback radio is it's are going to listeners all the time. But the bad of radio is
that everything's very it's soundbites. It's like you talk to someone twenty thirty seconds, maybe one minute on the phone, and even when you have a guest, it's like we'd have you and we'd have you know, doctor Hannah coming out of the four o'clock news, and you come on after the you know, the news and the weather and the station idea and the time check and this and that, and you come on at four oh seven and then we're shuffling you off at four or eleven.
Right, yeah, the producer goes.
The producer goes, thanks, Hannah, that was great. Take care. Right, So you've just had fucking four minutes of not really a conversation.
Happened. It's happened many times.
Where they're firing like bullshitty, generic, cheesy, superficial questions and you're like, I can't answer that in sixty seconds, that's actually a conversation. So, and the beauty of this is, you know, as you said, before we started, what do we talking about? I said, I don't know. Then we had a solid twenty seconds of prep. But well that's
the beauty. That's the beauty of podcasts. Then the beauty of having your own is if we talk for twenty minutes or two hours, it doesn't matter, there's no rules. If we swear or don't swear, it doesn't matter. Whatever topic we talk about within reason is absolutely fine. And
wherever we go. And you know, so I love the freedom and the flexibility of podcasting and I think the not for everyone, but for the majority of people, the appeal is I feel like I'm listening to just a conversation versus a very stage managed, four minute bullshitty thing on the radio.
You like the free element of it, so you can actually have a real conversation. And I think that's probably why so many people like listening to you. It's just that easy to listen to drive to work, you know, in the car you can learn something every episode.
Yeah, there's a sound bite, but.
And also you know, I'm I'm learning as I'm going, I'm getting things wrong, I'm asking good questions and dumb questions. You know, there's been I've I've changed, I've unlearned things over my six years on this show where I used to think A and now I think B, you know, and you know I don't I've For me, it's been as much a I guess, a space where I can connect with people and ask good questions and provide something for the world, as much as it has been for
me a classroom of learning and unlearning, you know. So to me it's been a gift, which sounds cheesy, but it's true.
That's beautiful.
Craig thank you. I don't want you to cry. All right, So you've had a kid.
I had a baby.
I had a baby, my little girl, baby Remy, had about six months ago. So I'm going through the throes of learning parenthood and all that jazz.
It's it's been a trip.
Wow. What I mean, I want to open the door too wide. But what was the what's the biggest surprised being a mum or being a parent in general? Where you've gone up. I never thought of that. This is what It's.
Gonna make me sound so naive. This is gonna sound terrible. Please don't judge me. Having a child is nothing like having a pet.
I don't know. Do I sound terrible saying that. Let me put that into context.
I've only had pets before, and I've had like you know, like cats and dogs and stuff, and they're very like sort of stagnant, like they stay the same. So you like, I've got the cat. As everybody knows. I'm sure if you follow my Instagram, you know I have a cat named Jeff. And Jeff is Jeff, right, Like, Jeff stays the same, Jeff does the same things. Jeff is the same level of intelligence and has been for the last three years or four years.
That I've had him. Remy, on the other hand, my daughter and this I know. I'm a psychologist, I'm a neuropsychologist. I know this.
I know this, And I point out everyone that the woman's saying these things has a PhD in europsychology. So when you feel stupid, everyone don't feel stupid at all, because most of you have got doctor Hannah covered.
This is a safe space.
Crete ha ha I no, but I like for the first time, like I'm really learning what it means to be with a little human that changes and evolves every day. And I see her IQ changing and evolving every single day. And the baby that wakes up today is a different baby than yesterday because today's she's learnt to say my mo ma, mama, and yesterday she couldn't do that. And I'm I'm really finally appreciated. I think there's lines in life.
Lines in life are things that until you have experienced it, you do not understand what it feels like, Like the line of the first time you you know, kiss a girl, or the first time.
That you know.
Try some kind of drug, or the first time that you have sex, or the first time that you something very significant, get married, or you know, so many lines of first that are huge, like the first time you fell pregnant, the first time you have a baby, the first time you parent a child. There's so many lines in life that until you have crossed the line, it's really hard to understand truly what it feels like.
And I feel really grateful that I have crossed a line.
And I know what it feels like to be pregnant, now, what it feels like to give birth, what it feels like to.
Have a baby. And I'm still crossing lines now.
I know what it feels like to have a six month old baby that's starting to talk and roll over.
And eat food.
So all of those experiences for me, you know, it's I am a psychologist, I'm a neuropsychologist.
But I still I think that's why.
I'm a neuropsychologist because I love this like I just no, no, no, no, I'm gonna eat it for breakfast, like I love I love learning and seeing these I'm getting excited talking about it. Hopefully that doesn't make me sound yeah crazy. My baby is nothing like my cat in short.
Wow, that could be the title. My baby is nothing like my cat, my baby, My baby Remy is nothing like, nothing like Jeff the Cat. But but I think, look, what you're pointing out is the chasm between theoretical understanding or learning and experiential learning. It's like, oh, like I kind of yeah, well I realized, but I didn't. I didn't. I had to. I had to do this. I had to be in the middle of this. I needed to. I needed to have this experience to get this understanding.
You know. So there's a difference between kind of acquired knowledge through you read something, heard something, saw something, which is kind of it's important, but it's really it's like with me when I talk about in a slightly different but still experience, I talk about obesity, childhood obesity, you know, as an exercise physiologist and all these things, and someone who's you know, doing their PhD and psyche and understands
the insection of physiology, psychology, sociology and emotion around all of that bullshit around childhood obese. But I was fat, and you know, so that's where my real understanding and insight comes from, is being called jumbo and being picked on and being the fat eskid at school and being embarrassed to take your top off and like that's where my you know, And yeah, of course we all kind
of get the theory. But when you know, when you go through something and I actually think, and this is you might hate this, and this is my supervisors will hate this. I think academy is overrated and experiential learning is underrated. I don't, which is not to say I don't think academic learning is valuable or important. Of course it is. But I think people who like some of the best teachers and coaches and leaders that I've ever met and inspirers and shapers and influencers of people in
a good way, left school at year nine. But their innate ability to communicate, connect, understand, resolve conflict, build apport, build connection, read the room, read people, which is just experience and skill that they've developed. Like you can go and do four phdds and have none of that. And you and I both know academics who are socially emotionally inept.
No comment you you absolutely no be braver.
You know it, listen, know it, not to pivot hard. But I'm just gonna I'm just gonna comment that I think if that ability, what makes blows my mind is like if you can just harness that ability to vicariously learn through the experiences of other people when they tell you, you know, this happens, and that happens, and you.
Know, learn learn from my experience.
Like, if only we could really tap into that in a real visceral way where we truly take on that lesson, I feel like that's such a key to unlocking you know, equality, life is learning how to vicariously learn truly and deeply.
When we hear about the experiences of other people.
It's it's it's how do we take that to the next level, which is it's such an amazing thing. And I'm still I'm still figuring it out, Like I don't I'm not the perfect vicarious learner by any means, but it always blows my mind when I get an nice, real life example that hits home.
Well, think about pursuant to that, your honor, Think about how many people, like how much stuff do we hear about, you know, eat well, sleep well, move your body, you know, try to manage your anxiety and stress, like surround yourself with people who build you up, not pull you. You know, all of these important messages and ideas around you know, self regulation, self management, you know, in terms of our health.
But how many go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and eat shit and do shit and smoke shit and drink shit and then have a heart attack. Then all of a sudden they're like evangelizing everybody in their life about how to be healthy. Yeah right, because even though they theoretically understood, they weren't scared enough. Like I honestly think for many people it comes out like real change comes down to emotional leverage, like how fucking much do you
want it? Because some people go, yeah, I'd like to be I'd like to be lean and fit and healthy and blah blah blah, but also I love beer and pies and cake, so fuck off.
M m hmmmmmm. I totally get it, and for another day to discuss.
But like with my just a tiny bit of self disclosure, Craig, because I did say this was off limits before we started the podcast, but here I go. When I gave birth, I had an injury from that which I'm doing physio to recover now. And you know, we only realized five months posts that i'd like torn some ligaments and it was like pretty bad injury and I have not I can tell you I have been doing over an hour of physio exercise every night diligently for a month and
a half. Like I've never had such dedication to exercising until this has like truly deeply affected me on a really personal level and my ability later in life be able to do exercise and engage my body in the way I want to. And now all of a sudden, I have no problems getting that hour and a half of exercise every nighty and no matter what. And before that, oh my gosh, doing even thirty minutes of exercise, I wasn't doing it.
So yeah, it's that. It's that I love that word, emotional leverage.
Yeah, well that's true. That's what it is. That's because, like you, you were quite more pain with not doing it than doing it. Yeah, on some level, consciously or not. There's a story in your head that says I absolutely need to do this, therefore I am absolutely doing it. And that's that's versus with many people, myself included at times. Right, Oh, I want to do it like I want to do it,
is not I am doing it. Yeah, And it's that's that whole kind of reactive versus proactive, you know, Like I always say, the time to make really big decisions about your health and your lifestyle and your habits and behaviors is when you're healthy or before you get to that critical point, because I think, I mean this is very much generalizing, but having been in this space and working with people forever, I think most people can kind of get away with some bullshit until they're about forty.
Not everybody, but that's my I was about, So what is it when does the rubber hit the road?
Like?
How do we apply this information and knowledge? About forty is the cut off?
Look, I mean, that's that's terrible science. Everyone, that's that's bro science. That's Craig thinking out loud. So do with that what you will. But my experience is that people can do some pretty stupid shit to their body untill they're about forty. You know, smoke lots, drink lots of smoking is terrible, by the way, but drink you know, booze like unhealthy sleep, unhealthy, unhealthy habits. But once you like, your body really starts to age significantly after forty in
general terms, if you're not looking after it. And I think, but once you get up around fifty, if you're still doing horrible shit to your body consistently. It's not that you can't change, but you might be doing some irreparable damage. So you know, But look, I mean, I know people who have turned their life around in their sixties and got lean and fit and healthy and strong and functional
and change their habits and behaviors. And as you know, like you think about even the rehab you're doing, which is primarily a physiological process to create a physiological outcome, it's still a huge psychological and emotional component because you have to get your mind in the right place to do that thing.
Every day and turning those muscles on and really connecting to it and thinking about it. And the emotional load of being totally exhausted. My daughter's teething. We don't get a lot of sleep at the moment.
You just want to. It's so tempting to just lay on the couch.
I'm so so tired, But nothing beats the feeling of having ticked the box.
I got it done. Yes, I'm really happy that I did.
I know I did everything I could today to make my body as healthy as it could be and repair as much as it could be. So I so's anyone listening, It's never too late. It's never too late.
Yeah, wait to you, forty, what's the balance for you? Because obviously you're a mum and you're going to be a mom forever and that's beautiful, and but also you're a you're a career person, you're an academic. You're like,
what's the balance is there? You know, because I know some some women have babies and they're like, they're back to work fourteen minutes later and they're moms, but they're still very you know, so that it's a timetable with everything including the baby and feeding and blah blah blah blah. Has there been a big adjustment to how you do life obviously with the baby, but in terms of navigating career stuff.
Now, yeah, I mean when I felt pregnant, initially I made some big life decisions to step back and away from certain roles in my life because you know, I am a neuropsychologist, so I do believe in the sanctity of certain trimesters and wanting to keep myself as stress free as possible for my little bubby to grow.
Healthy and safe.
So I had made a decision to pull back from you know, hospital work and from lecturing at universities and just focus on my private practice. So I have a private practice where I do autism, ADHD assessments, intellectual disability and das you name it, we do it.
So that's based in Sydney.
I yeah, I focused on that instead, and I was doing I was a bit like U Craig. I was doing a lot of different jobs. I had like three different jobs at the same time. I was go go my entire career, go, go, go, always doing something. I think I'm pretty passionate about, neurosy like, so it was very easy for me to you know, start at seven in the morning and not finish until nine o'clock at night because I just I love it so fun, just fly so quickly, and I just had to change that.
I can't do that anymore because I have a little one inside me that needs me to be calm and rested. So I made decisions to change my workload. In the first timester when I was like ten weeks pregnant, I decided to change my workload and that I've run with that since pregnancy, which I'm.
Very happy about. And it's that classic cliched.
You know business owner who says, oh, I should have done this earlier. You know, when you just bite the bullet and you decide, I'm going to invest in my own my own business, and when you're a full time into my own practice, it's never been better.
It was absolutely the.
Right decision, you know, for me, sometimes everybody's different, but for me, that was one hundred percent the right decision to focus on that one area and do that really really well, really thorough, really comprehensive, throw myself into that and be really passionate. That's my practice is my other baby. And taking care of, you know, the patients and the clients that we see is something I'm really dedicated and
passionate about. And it was just nice to be able to focus on one thing and not feel split across multiple things. I'm sure one day I'd love to go back to teaching and love to go back to hospital work, but I think that's probably a way down the track. And then in terms of when I've had the baby and when I had a little baby, remy I have.
I'm very fortunate. I have a very supportive partner who's doing a lot of paternity leave, so I have had the ability to go back to work fairly early on and I don't know if I'm unusual that I love my job so much, Craig, like, I love it. So I started back at work pretty early after Remy was born, where I was, you know, still supervising registrars, still going over cases, still seeing certain clients, and it was only you know, a few hours a week here and there,
and we slowly increased it over time. But I, yeah, I really enjoyed being able to have, like, you know, half a day a week that I was able to work even when she was first born, and that for me, was what I needed to help with making making me feel still Hannah and not just you know, I'm just mum.
Now I'm still Hannah, and it just it's odd. It wasn't resting, it wasn't sleeping, but man, I found it so invigorating to you know, step out of mum role and step into doing some business and doing some neuropsychology. That invigorated me and that fueled my soul and that made me feel good. So that was a bit of a convoluted answer my, Like, there's no perfect there's no
perfect balance. But for me, I've really enjoyed having a combination of being with my buddy and also being able to work, so that's worked for me.
Yeah, right, do you think you're I don't know if this is a good question. I'm just interested more philosophical about the world and life. Now that you're a mum and now that you're like your life has forever changed and your priorities are forever changed. Or are you essentially the same, just with another thing on the to do list in the nicest possible way.
Oh wow, that's such a good question. I mean, I did just compare my baby to a cat earlier. No, I don't know. Yes, No, I think I've well, I think I've always been.
Like family is really important. Nothing comes before family. I just haven't had, you know, a little person dependent on me before. So I've been able to prioritize my work, you know, number one for a lot of my life. And now I've been able to go, Yeah, no, forever, this my little my human being will be you know, my prop number one priority, and I'm gonna make sure that I take care of her. That still feels authentically, Hannah.
It doesn't feel like a huge shift. I feel like I've been very fortunate in easing into this, and it hasn't. I haven't felt like I'm suddenly a different person. In fact, actually claiing to be perfectly honest, I thought that I would be like like something would click, there would be a light bulb flick, and I would just be like, I'm a mom now and I feel like a mom, and I identify as a mom, and I know what it feels like to be a mom. And I was actually saying to my partner just the other day, like
that never happened. I don't, in inverted columbas, feel like a mom. I kind of equate it to like, you know, when you're a kid and you're like, when I'm an adult.
I'll feel like an adult and I'll think.
Like and then that never happens, and you just have the same inner monologue and you're just thinking like the same child that you were, the same voice in your head when you were eight, when you're eighteen to when you're thirty eight.
That's kind of like what it feels like.
I thought I would feel differ, friend, but I feel still feel the same.
I'm like, I'm like a sixty year old, twelve year older, you know, just a big child. I wonder do because you're a mum and also a neuroscientist, neuropsychologist, one time researcher PhD, all of those things, and you're working constantly in and around brains and minds. Is there a self imposed pressure on the development the optimal development of your
child's brain? Like, are you like analyzing and reanalyzing every nuance because zero to five is like zero to five is crucial in terms of brain development and all the other Like do you're like, no, fuck it, She'll just be a kid and whatever will happen will happen. Or is there some let's not tell anyone, but is there some strategy in there around developing her Brian optimally?
Oh? Man, Yeah, I mean perhaps you need to check in with me on a six monthly basis for the next five years, because I feel like so far we've been pretty relaxed and we've just been going with the flow and observing these amazing things happen and been like, yeah, she's ticked that developmental milestone and wow, she's getting a bit of object permanence now, and oh my gosh, she's looking at herself in the mirror and just it's been actually so lovely to just kind of throw my hands
back and go, yep, it's your.
Brain's job to develop that. Now, it's not my job to do it.
It's you.
It's your job to do to do it. My only job is to make you feel loved, to give you food, give you a nice roof of your head. And I've really lent into being like, Yay, I'm not responsible for your brain doing its job. I just get to enjoy and observe that and take the pressure off myself to be responsible for your brain being perfect. It's going to
do what it's going to do. We've been pretty relaxed for the first six months, but I mean check in again when she's a bit old time, because I think it's definitely pressure in the future, perhaps maybe it'll maybe they'll feel differently.
Yeah, yeah, I guess. Also, though, like how a kid's brain develops other than just a natural kind of you know, biological, neurological, psychological development, sociological development that happens in a baby, all that normal stuff, but also that is all shaped and influenced by environment and suits and her parenting style, you know, context, situation, experiences, nutrition, Like, there are still variables that you need to only you can manage that she can't manage at this point in time.
So do you ah, yes, I mean you know what I'm saying, like, you want to do the right you want to provide an optimal environment.
And in enriching environment. Oh yes, okay, yes, so yes, yes, the answer is yes.
So my partner did sit me down and we had a conversation about how many toys, how many stimulating educational toys I had bought the baby because we do have a lot. But you know, I mean that to me was essential. I've also done, you know, breastfeeding. We're doing the whole you know, solid foods now, all that stuff to try to achieve an optimal an optimal enriching environment for her as best we can. So whatever's in our control.
I think I've definitely felt like, let's do that, and let's try to do that to the best of our ability, but also being a little bit kind to yourself, like, you know, maybe you don't have the space for all that, or maybe it's not as easy to you know, do breastfeeding.
Like my early experience of breastfeeding was pretty tough to start, So I completely understand why someone would go I'm not going to pursue that because sometimes the mom having good mental health is more important because you're right, it is, you know, attachment style and the karma you are the calm of the baby's going to be. I definitely have noticed when I'm stressed, Remy's stressed. When I'm calm, Remmy's calm.
And the super secret tip, which you know, take it or leave it, but my parenting tip that I've found is super helpful is when Remy's a bit distressed or we were having trouble getting into sleep, Mommy and Daddy would have a cuddle and a kiss above her grip. Maybe that sounds crazy, but it literally every time Ellie and I had a little cuddle, we had a little peck,
she would calm down and stop crying. And I just thought that that was so telling of the environment being relaxed and calm impacted her.
Take it or leave her people.
That's amazing, that's amazing.
That was beautiful.
So can we broaden the lens of this conversation a little bit and talk about kids other than your kid? But it's I don't know if maybe there's just more awareness now or you know, kids being diagnosed with a range of different you know, mental challenges and issues and is it are we just more aware or is there more prevalence of both, Like it seems like every second kid has has diagnosed with something and medicated for something of a psychological you know nature. Is it? What is
the story? Is it a bit of both?
Yeah?
Well, look, when I did my PhD, like I looked into ADHD and language disorders, and when I was doing that paper, you know, I the research at that time was suggesting that most of the studies that said things like we're over diagnosing and you know, it's not real and it's just a case of you know, overpathologizing. A lot of the studies that made those comments it wasn't actually in the scope of the study to make.
Comments like that.
It was them speaking outside of you know, the range of s studies measure.
To even comment on it.
And so there's a lot of fear mongering that there was an over diagnosis of things like ADHD for example, But an actual fact, the increases to the rates of ADHD were simply they tended to align and it was once I saw a very beautiful slide which I would love to replicate, but it was the increase to the number of people diagnosed with ADHD whenever there was a change to our diagnostic criteria. So we have a little manual. It's like a menu of criteria which tic tick tick.
If you tick enough, then you get the diagnosis. When the menu was made more accurate and specific, there was an increase in diagnoses, and that wasn't because there was more people with it. It was just because we were detecting them better. So every time there's been a massive spike in the base rates or the increase of people with ADHD or other conditions, it has aligned with the next addition of the diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is that wonderful bible we have that's used.
Internationally to diagnose feria conditions.
So to me, that's sort of suggesting this is about us getting more accurate and getting more well, getting better at finding these people so that they don't end up in their thirties, forties, fifty sixties. And I see people in there right into their sixties who were never diagnosed with intellectual disability. They were never diagnosed with ADHD or autism, even when it was glaringly clear that they have an issue. Those people just were never seen because back then it
may have been stigmatized or completely missed. So in my book, it is it's not an overpathologizing things. It's that we are getting more accurate at detecting these things.
What are we up to? The DSM six? Is that where we're at the moment?
Five five five yeah, yeah, So what do you know?
It's so interesting, it's so interesting. I don't know about all of that.
I it's okay. I think it's a safe speed.
I don't disagree with you. I think a lot of people did in the old days and in the old age back you know, when I was a kid. I think people did, you know, Like I've got really good friends who were dyslexic and they didn't find out till they were like sixteen. Well, no one, you can't read Champ. You're not stupid. You've got dyslexia. You know. So a lot of things did. But how do we know that? Well, Like, and I know there are specifics and boxes that have
to be ticked. I know it's very methodical, but you know the difference between someone who's having a bad day or a bad week, which is just part of the human like, you know, depression and anxiety and self doubt and overthinking and feeling a bit blur and feeling a bit shit. That's also just part of being a human.
Yes, yes, you know, true.
Yes, So it's not like, oh, you're sad, you're depressed. No, you're just sad because you're human. Because if something bad happened, or you know, someone called you a dickhead, or you watched a movie or like, I don't know, I.
Don't know, is there where's the line any Yeah?
Where's the line.
Between normal and.
Yeah?
And also when you go, oh, I don't know, Like when people go I am, it's like an I am statement. Then they're whatever they've been diagnosed with becomes their identity.
Mm hmmm.
That worries me a little bit. You know, I am depressed, I am anxious, I am I have Like it's ah and I get it. And I'm not trying to be tricky or difficult. I'm just like, where's the line? You know? Like what we go, all right, well, you're medicated now forever, all the best? Like are we fixing the problem? Are we treating the symptoms? Is there way any way to fix the underlying problem? Is it completely biological and there's
nothing we can do? To like, Yeah, what's I know it's multi dimensional, but what are your thoughts?
Oh well, big questions, big questions.
Understand for all of that, put a bow on it.
And when done so you know too.
I think two points that you've kind of really brought rays that are very fair. Is one, when's the line of when do I know? Like, how do I know when this is more than just normal? When is this actually, you know, neurodiverse or atypical? When do I get my brain checked? In other words, like when do I need to get an assessment done? And the second question is is having a diagnostic label helping people or is it, you know, something that may may be detrimental to their
sense of self. Now that first question of how do I know when to get my brain checked, you know, one of the fundamental answers, and I can give you.
I could unpack so many symptoms and so many case studies where I've seen where people have told me some really full on exams samples of you know, not just being inattentive, but being so distractable and so unable to concentrate that they have, you know, caused significant issues in their workplace to the point of losing maybe millions of dollars in contracts because they've accidentally put a digit or
a decimal in the wrong spot. Or people who are so impulsive that they have bought a house that they couldn't necessarily afford and they've put a bid down for something that they couldn't actually handle. Or people who are so disorganized that they have the money to pay for it, but they have not paid a single parking fine and now they're getting pulled into court and then maybe legal proceedings against them.
Or somebody who.
Has literally locked themselves out of the house nine times they've had to call the locksmiths every single time to get themselves back into the house. You know, there's there's normal forgetfulness, there's normal poor concentration and disorganization, and then there's a functional impairment to your life, a functional impairment to social relationships, like the people who I see who are having a marital breakdown or a relationship breakdown because
of how severe their symptoms are. There are educational impacts. So there's people who are you know, I've had many people who will tell me about times they'll sit in a car and absolutely break down and they can't get themselves to go into an exam that they've been studying for for the last seven days because they just face they can't face it. Or people who have had to drop out of UNI or drop out of school because
they're smart enough to do the work. They're often very gifted and very intelligent, they just can't seem to get themselves to do the work. There's also work impacts where you know, we're getting reprimanded, you know, to the point that this is starting to threaten my ability to do my job. This is starting to threat I've got the ATO knocking on the door because i haven't submitted my
taxes in five years now. These are all examples of clients who I've literally seen who have told me about their symptoms and who we are just living with this going on. So we're talking about a significant functional impairment to your life, and a lot of people will have
strategies to try and manage that. I once saw a girl who she literally picked up her iPhone and she scrolled and scrolled and scrolled and scrolled and scrolled because she had that many alarms down to the minute to remind her alarms in alarms in alarms, because she'd keep missing things, and if she didn't have that alarm, she would miss everything. So I think it ultimately it's coming
down to the functional impact. If you feel like it is impacting social education work, it's impacting your life in a really negative way, That's that's the line. That's the line where it's worth going to talk to someone about it. And the second part of your question was does the label do anything? And could it be hindering someone or harming someone? And I want to kind of flip that on its head for a second and say, well, what
if we don't give a label. You know, I see people in their twenties, thirties, forties who had undiagnosed autism, for example, or undiagnosed ADHD or undiagnosed dyslexia. What they often end up calling themselves is lazy, stupid, unintelligent, not good enough. And when I sit with them and explain to them, no, no, there was a part of your brain that wasn't working the same as other people. You are a square peg in a world of round pegs that wasn't.
Made for you.
This information was not explained to you in a way that you could understand. That has caused that person to internalize and call themselves all sorts of horrible names and believe all sorts of horrible things about themselves. When they finally find out, actually there was something genuinely different about my brain. It can be very validating to hear I
am not unintelligent, I am not lazy. There is a real reason why this has been a struggle for me compared to other people, and hearing those terms has helped them to really validate their lived experience.
Hmmmm. I like it. I like it. It's a good explanation. And I think there's that having that diagnosis and that awareness, and there's a fair chasm between that and understanding, oh, this is why I am the way I am and walking around calling yourself anxious or calling yourself whatever it is all day every day while you know so that that doesn't Yes, it is. It is part of part of what's going on with you, but it's it's not the totality of you like this, it's not who I am.
It's not who I am at my core. Yeah, I mean, and with things like and I know that there are a lot of variables around this, and you get ten people with ADHD, for example, they're not all going to behave the same react, the same, respond, the same, express the same, But that's my assumption anyway.
No, that's very true. There are different phenotypes.
Right, So are we trying to with somebody, like with somebody who has ADHD and who often we're seeing now people in their forties getting diagnosed, going ah fuck, no, wonder you've been like that your whole life. You're not broken, you're not weird. There's just this thing, and your gorgeous and amazing, but you've got this thing going on. Are
we trying to just manage that thing? Are we trying to are we trying to improve the condition or are we trying to provide a medication that will just keep them more operational and more functional?
Oh gosh, such a complex quession, which we could probably do a whole nother episode on. To be honest, the short answer is sometimes both. It depends on severity. I think, you know, holistic approach is always better than having one silver bullet, right, The idea that you could just pop a pill and every problem is going to go away. I think anyone who's triald medication.
Knows that that's not how it works.
There is an element of behavioral change, therapy, interventions, rehabilitation, and effort for work that needs to go into the functional impact getting better and things like I talked about with work and school and relationships. You can't just take a pill and expect everything to go away, which is why you know people who think I'll just take that
medication and everything will be gone. No, you also have to put some effort into well unlearning some bad habits, and so the brain, the frontal lobe's learning some better regulation skills so that you're not reliant on that medication forever.
The idea is it's helping your brain to bring it up to a baseline level that you can start to learn some new skills and some new habits and healthier strategies, healthier external strategies so that you can start to function better in life and be happy and live live the quality life that you need to.
Or you want to.
So, you know, I think anyone who's saying what just one answer is probably too reductionistic. It's a holistic approach where we need to look at sleep and diet and you know all the things we mentioned earlier in this podcast, and a lot of people can have great success without medication as well by exploring those avenues too. So the answer is not always just medication, but for some people it can be absolutely life changing.
Now I know there's no three or four point list that you're going to wheel out, But if somebody is thinking, I wonder if I should go and see a doctor Hannah or similar, what kind of criteria do they need to meet or what kind of needs to be going on for me to go? Might be something, might be nothing, but I'll go see someone and have a chat, like what, you know, if there was stuff going on with me where I was unsure, what might precipitate me going to see you?
So I think, you know, if you feel like you've got to a point where something in life is really not going the way that you were hoping it is
going to go, so there's a significant impact to your life. So, say you're not able to do your work, say you're not able to study, Say you're not able to have a healthy, meaningful relationship with someone when you want to, and you've been trying to do this and you're finding that in those aspects social work education, you're not getting things done that you need to get done, to the point that it's impacting your ability to do that job,
impacting your ability to do that course, impacting your ability to be in that relationship, and you're going to lose something as a consequence.
You know.
That's when I'm saying that, That's when I'm thinking it's probably time to just have a chat with someone. You could have a conversation with your GP about it.
Your GP will.
Often have some good questionnaires that are a nice little to start starting point, and then that could then be a referral to a neuropsychologist or a psychiatrist for a more thorough examination. So you know, I think deep down a lot of people will resonate with some of these things and they'll know, dip down that sounds like me. You can do a little bit of research, make sure it's a reputable organization where you're getting your facts from.
Do a bit of knowledgeable research about it. But there does come a time where it's helpful to talk to it a professional to make sure that you're not I suppose, getting your information from poor sources. And that's where touching base with the GP may be useful as just that interim person. Do you think I should go and see the neuropsych or the psychologist or the psychiatrist. People like my do intakes where we'll just do a fifty minute session. We'll go through and say is there enough in there
for you to get an assessment? Is there any point or is there something else going on, like you're not getting any sleep, you have a significant problem with alcohola drug use at the moment, or you haven't trialed some therapy for six months to see if this is just something you can work out through neurotypical depression anxiety strategies. Then you know there might be other things you can
explore before you seek an assessment. But when in doubt, I actually think I'd err towards just talking to a professional touching base with your GP and have a little conversation about it and just see what the professional has to say about it.
And always we should first start with chat GPT, though.
Right, I don't know, I feel like that's a bit of a double edged sword card.
I'm kidding.
Look, it's an amazing tool. It's an amazing tool. You could say, were the symptoms of ADHD and see what resonates. But just keep in mind those algorithms they I think somebody used the term hallucinate to me the other day.
Have you heard of that, Craig, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where they start, it's us to say stuff that may not be accurate, so.
It says that often comes up with stuff which is complete garbage, so.
It doesn't replace the professional That.
Was a joke, everybody, don't We don't start there. Hey, I'm glad that you and the kiddo well and that the world's best partner is being the world's best partner, and that you look happy and healthy, and maybe we can chat more than once a year.
Huh, let's do it. Let's let's continue the chat.
I'm sure there's lots of things we can unpack here.
We've talked about a lot today.
How do people connect with you? Doc?
Come and check me out at Sydney neuropsych dot com dot au. That's my practice and you can also find me on Instagram. I'm the no ballsych is in N O b U L L Psych Noble and Yeah, very happy to chat if you have any questions, if you wanted a little bit more clarification or anything, We're always happy to help.
Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. Craig is actually really great to see you again. I'm so happy to be back.
Thank you. I'm a little bit awesome. You're welcome. I did a humility workshop and I was the best. I'm stoking. I was going to say, oh, that's what I was thinking just before we let you go. Hey everyone, so you know that we've got our Facebook group, so the you Project Facebook page. If you've got some questions for doctor Hannah, come in there and we might we might
well see if there's any response. We might do a Q and a session with the good doc around anything that we've spoken about today, or more broadly, anything in the psychology, neuros, ecology, human behavior, brain you know, you get it, anything in that space, and if we can't answer it, we'll make something up, which is you know, that's what we do. We just make shit up. No, go to that page and if you want to leave
a question or two, we will. We'll keep those questions and we'll get the doc back and we'll maybe do a Q and A session which might be interesting. What do you think now?
I think that's a great idea.
And guys, in the interim, if anything we've talked about today has been triggering for you, or anything that has brought some stuff up for you. Do get in touch with the Lifeline. Reach out to Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. They get They're there for support if you have any
of the questions or want to quickly research things. Places like the Raising Children Network is really great online and that's useful for anyone who might have questions about themselves or a child of theirs, if they're a bit worried about something going on with their development.
Perfect as always, I'd expect nothing less. Thanks Doc. We'll say goodbye a fair but for now, thanks being back on the new project.
Thanks guys,