I get a team. Welcome to another installment the show tif Any and Cook. We'll start with you.
Hi, Hello, sir.
It's a little bit late for you. It's twenty five to seven. Do you are you okay?
Well, daylight savings, it feels real late. I'm not.
I'm ready for bed when the sun goes down.
What's your typical going to bedtime?
I get like to hop into bed at nine and read a book.
How many hours of sleep? Doctor Sam? Will come to you in a moment, apologies. How many hours of sleep do you get on average?
I think that my average is around seven hours now or set might even be seven and a half. I've worked very hard on that. I'm trying to check my stats as we speak.
And you're not hungry. I was worried that you would get on because it's twenty five to seven in the PM and you without food. You're not like my favorite you is not a hungry you. I'm going to be honest.
You're not alone. You're not alone on a hungry Do.
You get angry, doctor Sam?
I do get hungry, and like I often refer to that, you know, with my friends, when it's getting to that time, I'm like we need to you know, we need to get to lunch now, Like I'm getting hungry, So it's definitely a thing for me.
I wonder if that's more of a girl thing than a guy, I think, because I don't. I don't think any of my mates get that. Maybe I don't. I don't really get it, Like I get hungry, but I'm like, ah, I can do kids get hungry? Do kids get cranky because they're not eating or they Yeah?
Yeah, I think so, And I think there's probably two parts. So well, obviously it's the being hungry and not knowing how long, you know, Like for us, we could go I'm hungry, but I'm going to go to the shops and I'll get it will be ready in five minutes. But for kids, they don't see that, So I think
that's one part. But also the blood sugar levels too, Like if they're constantly sacking throughout the day, they're having just a lot of carbs without that protein and that fats you know, you get that boost of energy, but then you come crashing down And I feel like that's where the hangary in this comes from too.
So do you when kids are grumpy or out of sorts? That's what Mary, that's what my mum calls children out of sorts, Like, oh, he was out of sorts? Yeah, what eighty five year old ladies say? Is it more often than not tiredness, hunger, or anxiety one of those three? Or is it something else?
Oh?
I think there's like always the combination of things, right, Like we can look at it from our basic needs of like, yeah, they tired, they're hungry, are they overstimulated? Are they understimulated? So there's all of those like kind of basic stuff. But then yeah, I mean they could be anxiety in a situation where they're feeling like they have to do it right, do it perfectly, they're scared
about something. So I think there's almost a lot going on and it's hard for kids to articulate that as well.
I've never asked you about this, I don't think. But tell me about I don't want to offend anyone, but tell me about clinging kids, like you know, like that the kid that just holds mum's leg. Mum walks and the kids hold like a little spider monkey holding the leg. Tell me about cleanness, how like how do you deal with that?
Yeah, that's such a good one. So separation anxiety, yeah, yeah, so common in those for younger kids, and partly you know, there's it's really like it should be normalized in some ways. It's like yep, kids you know struggle to understand that separation if you can go but you can come back, and so then that's their I don't want you to go, and then they cling on, right. I think the problem becomes when we feel as adults that we can't then live our lives, so then it becomes a cycle.
Right.
So for example, if you've got a mum and you've got a child going, I don't want you to go out with your friends. I missed you, and a mom then starts to feel guilty and she's like, oh, like my child really needs me, Like I shouldn't leave them. I don't want them to feel abandoned, So then they
don't go. What ends up happening is that the mom then becomes obviously resentful naturally because she feels like I can't do anything without my child being upset, and then the child's like, but I just need you here, but they physically want the mom there, but the mum emotionally obviously can't be there. If she's having to be present twenty four seven, or the child is demanding so much of her.
So what ends up happening.
Is that the pair and then kind of gets a bit snarky and a bit annoyed with the child, and then the child wants someone even more because it's like, I know I need you, and I don't know, and I'm not getting this need met, So it becomes this perpetuating cycle. So I think I think the anxiety for child breths anxiety for parent, and so in order to break.
That, we need to be like, of course you're upset that you needed me to leave.
I miss you too, and I know that you miss me, but here's a boundary. I am going to leave and I'm going to come back. So what would you like to do when I come back? How can I reconnect? And so it's almost like teaching that child that cycle. If there is a rupture, so to speak, I'm having to leave you and you're really upset about that.
But then we're going to repair when I get back.
And so I think it's about us having that kind of confidence and that separation and going it's okay for my child to feel worried, but I need to be able to hold this boundary as well.
Yeah, otherwise the kids are kind of manipulating the parents, right, Well.
Yeah, no one really gets their needs met because then the child gets is like kind of cranky, annoyed parent that's like, oh, I'm like kind of I'm feeling really touched out right now, and you're overwhelming me and so.
I'm not really giving you the best of me.
And then the child then thinks it's obviously them and then they kind of seek that out more. So I don't really feel like that helps either one of them. I think it's much better for the mom to be like, okay, I still need to go, and then the child be upset, But then the mom fill up their caup and come back and be like, Okay, I'm really going to give you this quality time then yeah, in a way that you want and actually be present with that. So yeah, it's it's hard, but it becomes a cycle.
One of my one of my friends or a couple, Nigel and Mary Jane, they own three childcare centers and so they have about forty forty five staff and I don't know a shitload of kids in those three centers, and I just think that is a hard job. Like they I mean, they love it, they're very good at it, they do very well, they're very popular, they've got a massive waiting list, all that stuff. But yeah, I just think that would be, you know, dealing with the hysterical
kid that doesn't want mum or dad to leave. I guess generally mum, and then trying to what is the strategy when going to childcare or kinder or school for the first time when the little one kind of loses it.
Yeah, that's such a good question because I used to wake in a child concentered too, And I think one of the worst things that we can do, which looks like it's the best in the short term, but the worst in the long term, is sneak out. So a lot of parents are like, my child gets so distressed if I say.
Goodbye to them. So what I'm going to do is I'm going.
To quickly sneak out, and they're just going to get distracted and have fun with their friends and then I'll be back and everything's fine. And I think what we do as adults is we're thinking what's the path of least resistance, which could be that, but then what ends up happening as a child gets even more anxious because they're like, every time I look away, you're gone, So how can I trust that you're not.
Going to do that again? When are you going? When are you coming? When a you're going? It's just so confusing.
It's much better is I think that prep work of playing around what you know, play boss, playing around that beforehand. If this is how it's going to go, I'm going to I'm going to be dropping you here, and I'm going to be leaving and it could be tough, and you're going to have your friends, and then I'm going to come back. And so the child understands the story, but then when the parents in that situation, they hold
that space. So I've come here, I've helped you with your bag like I said it would, I've given you a hug and a kiss.
But then I'm going to.
Go and not making it a drawn out process and not making it a trying to plead and bargain with them, but I am going and kind of being able to say goodbye. And what ends up happening is, of course the child's going to be potentially upset, and that's okay, but then kind of coming back, and I think once we're able to, I guess feel that discomfort offere, they're
going to be upset. I'm going to see that, but still not letting that guilt then cause us to do something different, right, which you stay plead, feeling really bad, maybe quitting, you know whatever. Else They can move through it, because it's okay to feel wirried at times, and you know what, you'd kind of prefer a child to do that, to be honest, then to be too scared to tell you that they are and sit with that and then
that kind of bubble away. So I think, you know, the kids that are able to say no, I don't want you to go, that's a good thing. We don't want kids to put on a mask. We just want to be able to help them through that.
If do you wish doctor Sam would talk a bit quicker.
I listened to podcasts on one point five and she's already on point I'm down with this.
Yeah, you don't need to you don't need to listen. You probably need to wind it back to put out.
What you're here for the too, right, that's what you're here for for it, you know, like being able to slow it down to the listeners.
She doesn't slow it down. She said it about one point five. I reckon, I want to know about I don't know if this is the right term, but this is the Craig term incidental learning with little kids versus intentional learning teaching. Like, obviously, kids are from when they can fathom anything, right from when they can understand anything. Parents are teaching them stuff. But at what stage do you think you should start to consciously teach them things in a semi organized, structured way.
I think that we should always be moving between the two of intentional and incidental. I don't think that each either one is better or worse. I think each situation calls for different ones. So is there a situation that you're thinking of in terms of what's better.
I was just thinking about like this guy that I know where I'm doing at UNI at Monash. He's got this little kid who's this I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, but he's this genius penist. He's like seven. He plays like fucking Mozart and like that kid's been playing since he was I think two. I
mean he's a prodigy, Like he's been on TV all that, right, ridiculous. Yeah, But like I imagine he started to learn, like being taught reading music, understanding tempo notes, chords, like putting stuff together timing at about two or three yea. And you know, I don't I don't have an opinion. I'm just curious around that. And I guess it's different for different people, right.
Yeah, And I guess it's different of how that started. You know, was it really parent led? Was it a child kind of showing an interest in something and so then we're just following that pace and then they ended up really liking it and you know, being so driven internally that you're kind of supporting that. Or was it really, like I said, parent led and then kind of pushing that?
And I think it's so easy to look at that when you're looking at these examples of really talented kids and kids that are obviously above the rest of their peers, right with a certain skill. But I think when we look at success, it's not just that, it's looking at their mental health too, right, It's looking at everything and the whole picture.
So you'll see that with like child actors.
I mean, they do amazing, they're in shows, they're super famous, and then they get on the drugs and the alcohol, and they're numbing and they're really struggling in their life. So I think that's a tricky bit. I don't think that, like I said, it's one or the other. I think it's trying to get a live in both walls that you want to provide opportunities. You want to help kids get out of their comfort zone and guide them and
be directive with that. But then you also want them to love learning and love what they're doing and have that passion and let that be internally driven. So how do we manage both? I think it's like a dance.
Really.
Yeah, that's interesting, right because when you said that about child actors, and I know that some some went great, but this there's probably a disproportionate number of very very very famous children and it didn't go well for them over the long term as adults, you know. So yeah, and that's that kind of I mean, do kids feel this is I don't know if this is dumb question, but I know kids feel pressure. But you spoke before we started recording, you spoke about burnout, Like do kids get burnout?
Yeah? I think it is different.
Does that mean, like, how is that how's that different to adult burnout? If at all?
That's a good point. So I guess with adult burnout.
You know, where how do you see that someone's burnt out?
Let's just say at work.
They might lose their passion for things, right, They may feel like depressed, they may feel really stressed. They might have a bit of a breakdown, they may quit their job. With kids, they don't have as much control over their lives to be able to do that.
So when a child's.
Really at the tent, like at their end, you know, how would that show out? Probably behavior issues? Yeah, right, a lot of behavioral isshous defiance.
Maybe you know what I mean.
I mean this is not a silly question. What do kids have to be burnt out? I like too much sand, pit time, too much monkey bars.
I think it's the expectations, to be honest, when I when I hear a lot of parents and they're like, okay, so my kids to wake up at this time, and then they do this, and then they do that, and they come back from school and then pretty much every moment is.
Scheduled until they go to bed.
I couldn't operate like that, Like I'm not a robot, like I need space to do nothing. I need I need different rhythms. Right, some days do call for like productivity and like yeah, I'm on it, but other days really cool for just like I want to have fun and just be and have space to just like when I say play, I mean like have a little dance party with my kids, or just go down to the park and not have to worry about what how many to come back and I'll come.
Back when I'm ready, you know, like that kind of stuff.
So I think what we do again, with the best intentions, a lot of parents want to give their kids all the opportunities and everything that they didn't receive, but what ends up happening is they actually overscheduled to the point of it's really stressful and because it's coming from someone else.
If you could imagine, you know, if I plan something for myself and I feel differently, I can then you know readjust kids don't get that opportunity if they're like to their parents, I don't feel like it the parents like now I scheduled this or where do you do this? So it is really hard. Yeah, I think that's where the bend that would come from. To be honest, overscheduling
and expectations which are just not developmentally appropriate. Kids aren't, you know how they haven't got their brain completely you know, developed at such a young age, and so we have these expectations if you should be able to do this, I saw you do it yesterday, But they can't keep that up right twenty four to seven. Like, we've all
got different sides of us. We have, you know, responsible sides, and we also have these other sides that we need to be playful and spontaneous, and kids are the same.
Yeah, do you ever see You probably don't because you're not really involved in sports so much. But like I've been around a lot of athletes, like even kids from
ten through to obviously elite adult athletes. But it's interesting with kids in sport, how often, like I've often wondered, how much is this how much of this motivation and drive coming from the kid, and how much of it is coming from the parent, and how much of it is because the kid feels obligated or this is how the kid thinks she's going to please dad or mum or she's going to I feel like that with children in sport it can be precarious as well, because it's
not because, like especially for elite children, Like one of my friends, their kid is in the Victorian bask A girl, young girl twelve, she's amazing though her name's doesn't matter Indie Indiana. So she's in the state basketball team and the state netball, state football team for girls and elite and probably going to be a professional athlete. But she trains like an adult, Like she has strength program, running program, skills, agility,
football training, basketball training. I look at all that, I'm thinking, Wow, this is a lot for a kid. I mean, she's twelve and she's in the she's once say which school, but she's at a fancy school in Melbourne. She's in the senior basketball team. So she's in year seven. They're all in year twelve.
Yeah.
Wow, there's this thirteen year old girl running around with seven and an eighteen year old girls. And I just think, you know, she seems to be doing great. Their parents are great. But for a lot of kids, that's not always the case, right.
No, it's not.
And like you said, where is it driven by? Because sometimes parents, you know, pick specific sports that they really love and they're like, I want my child to have that love for it.
All. I wish I had this opportunity.
So I feel like I've actually had whole opposite experiences with this as my own kids. You know, my son, you know, I got him into soccer fest. I had no idea if he would like it or not, and he really thrived with it and he loved it.
And he's you know, winning awards.
And he's you know, you know, in the top division and he's mean, he's ten, so it's still quite new for him, but it's very intently driven, you know, when I watch how he plays, even by himself, right, he really just enjoys the sport.
And so that's really cool.
Providing an opportunity for a child that wants to be there and wants to exceed on that. I tried to give the same opportunity for my daughter, and I mean it was it was a struggle to even get head to like stand on the field, you know. And I definitely felt that for my own, you know, because it was so easy with my son and terms of him
just really thriving in that environment. With my daughter, I was like, oh, but it's it's soccer time, and again she didn't want to go, and then when she did, she didn't really want to participate, and I could feel that like, oh, okay, you know this is kind of where these parents feel this pressure because you're like, no, this is this.
Is great, let's do that.
And then you kind of have to step back and you're like, that's not their thing, and that's all right,
what is her thing? You know, she loves us, So for me anyway, I think it's really important to notice our kids' strengths, not just strengths, but they interests, their curiosity, what captures their interests, you know, a little bit longer than the normal activities, and then let's hone in on that and give them different opportunities and also kind of support them and knowing that sometimes part of that is to feel uncomfortable and we kind of want to run
away from it. But how do we hold that space where where like, when we do something new, it is uncomfortable. And I think that's why it's really important for parents to be doing that at the same time, so you'll notice the parents that are living through their kids and that's why there is so much pressure. And then you'll notice the parents that are actually achieving their own goals and they're going through their own path of doing their own hobbies and they're like, I want my child to
experience there, so they're sharing it with them. It's very different. It's not a pressure. It's more like, yeah, like a journey. They're both on that journey together.
It must be very hard for a parent, I reckon.
I'm not a parent, so this is a hypothesis. But you know, if you're really good at something, or you're into something, you're into you know, you're a musician, or you're a whatever, you're an athlete or and you know that your kid could be good too, and you you're passionate and you want them to share your passion, but they don't, you know, to not like to have enough awareness to not impose that on them when they show no interest in the thing that you're interested in exactly.
And this is why I think it is so important that we really have our own stuff and we're working on our own goals, because then we will look at
it that like I talk. I think about this in one of the other podcasts where I left school at an early age, and you know, I thought that was like a bit of an unfinished business for me, and I think if I didn't go back to university and I didn't obviously complete my studies, I would have naturally put pressure on my kids because I would have been like I didn't have a parent that really was supporting me. But here I am supporting you guys, and I'll give
you anything. What do you need to succeed versus now I'm doing that and I've realized, you know, studying is such a hard path and it's got to be internally driven.
So I can step back.
I can be there to support them, but I know that that's their journey, and what's more important is probably them getting something that they're really interested and they're passionate about, right, And then I'm there to support that, not lead it, and not drive it because it can't be driven externally. Like that's never going to be the way that we should be supporting our kids.
It has to be. Yeah, And I.
Guess one of the challenges with this, I feel like we live in a very externally focused world. Like when we talk about success, yeah, like, oh, isn't he doing great? Isn't she doing great? She's getting amazing marks. He's in the football team, or she's in the football team, he's getting amazing marks. Whatever, you know, We never look at kids and go or isn't she doing great? She's content? Isn't he doing great? He's got no anxiety? Like It's
always about stuff that we can obviously see. It's about achievements, it's about performance, it's about gold, it's about appearance, it's about outcomes. It's like nobody looks at somebody across the bar or wherever it goes. Wow, look at her. She seems like she's really in a good place, emotionally well done, like nobody.
That's so true. That's very true. I imagine in the precious parents to keep one with well.
I mean, I reckon. We've all grown up in a model that says that success is about outcomes and things and stuff that people can see, you know. And so when your kid knows, well, if I'm prettier, or I'm faster, or I'm stronger, or I'm smarter or I'm whatever, then that gives me social currency. Then you know, of course they're going to strive for that perhaps or feel terrible if they're not that.
This is a really good example.
So we have this thing at my children's school, and it's like a reading based kind of challenge program. So you read a certain amount of books, and then you know, you get like a stick air and then you get like a badge, and then everyone who's read like twenty five books has a twenty five badge.
You know that kind of program.
Now you can see how socially it's important, right if kids really want to be a part of that. And I ask my kids, is this something that you really want? You really want to get that badge?
And they don't.
And so then for me as a parent, now you could go two ways with that. You could be like, oh, this is you know, something that the school's driven, and I really need to do it, and we need to get that because all the other kids will be getting that, and I need to look like a good parent and you need to be able to achieve this. Or I could kind of take a step back and going before they had this program and before my kids went to school. I just think reading's great in general, and I would
do that anyway with my kids. And I have a lot of books and my kids have a lot of that as well, and I just want to cultivate that to just normalize that without the you get a badge because you've wrote twenty five books, like I don't really know how many books I've read.
And to be honest, it's not really important.
We could sit on a book one for one page for twenty minutes, or we could breeze through a couple in ten, you know, like it's me if for me, it's about the experience of it. I'm not trying to rush through books just to tick a box. I would like to talk about it if they want to, and you know, imagine things and all of that kind of stuff. So that was something I decided to opt out of.
So it's things like that, I think, where you know, you can put an external prize on it, but then choosing to be like, yeah, I don't really want to do that because this is just a value of mine and I just want to normalize that. So I think there are that we can kind of mute out the noise and not.
Fall into that trap if yeah, making it always about like what's the reward?
Yeah. Well, I was very proud of Tiff recently because she got her twenty five book Badge. I mean, she started when she was seven, so it's taken a while.
But to be honest, I don't really think I could get that because I'm just like chronically never finishing books. Like I'll get a book and I'll read the chapters that I like, and then I'll move on to the next.
So I don't sit there and read one from start to finish, like I actually don't.
So, yeah, it would be hypocritical of me to expect my childhood they didn't really want to.
My reading days of books, like physical hard copy books, I think they're almost over, although maybe I'm just going like I've read in Inverted Coomma's nine books in about the last three months, but they're all audible.
Okay, you didn't really read them. Then you listen to the books.
Yeah, yeah, that's people say red but yeah, I agree with you. It's definitely not reading. So I've got a couple of specific questions. How old are your kids again? I know you've told me I forget.
Yeah, so my sounder ten ten and my daughter will ten eight in a few months.
So now we've covered this a little bit. But as somebody who is a therapist in the child's psychology behavior space, what's your personal philosophy. I'm not talking about what you recommend or what you teach, but what's your approach to your kids? And social media and what you're thinking. Not as a therapist, but well you can't as a therapist second, but a mum first.
Really good point. I haven't.
I mean, my kids, you know, have iPads, but they don't have mobile phones and they're not really on any of the social media, so I haven't really had to I haven't had to.
Deal with that yet.
But I I think the way that I would do it is knowing that these things exist, right, and how do we navigate that? Because the more that you say no to something completely, the more they're going to want to do it. So I think it's probably important to have these conversations right, understand what they want out of it,
and probably that visibility and that transparency. But I think we do live in a day and age where social media is a thing, So I think I'd much more want to be on board with that and showing them how to use it in healthy ways when it comes to that, rather than demonize it. And I think that's
the same to be honest with screen time. Like we can sit here and demonize screen time, but the reality is I was doing a PhD in another state, I was working in another state, I was learning in another states all things that I was only able to access because of the power of the computer, or even say social media. I mean, we're having this conversation because of
social media. So I much like to talk and I already do this without them having it talking about the power of social media, like they know that my business is on social media, they know that, you know, they can search up my name and find me kind of situation. So yeah, I'm definitely already starting to talk to them about chat, GPT and using these tools, but in probably in better ways.
So yeah, yeah, do you use.
Just speaking of that, do you in your work? Do you use AI, chat, JPT and the like.
Yeah, I use it in general for like not just brainstorming, but I think kind of like brainstorming like a bit of a conversation.
Yeah, so I like to to you.
Know, frame it in ways, ask them to you know, compare different let's just say, compare different theories, you know, dop point things like that kind of stuff. I don't use it in terms of writing or my voice, but I definitely use it as a bit of a research tool. Sorry, So I might ask it for recent research on a certain topic, or I might, yeah, use it in that way, and I think I think it can be really powerful to be honest chat GBT if we are using it
in the right ways. Yeah, yeah, more for brainstorming a situation.
Do you use that?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I mean I can't use it in my research of course, because it's it's all.
The PhD of course. Yeah, that's sorry. Yeah, disclaimer around that. Of course, if you're doing a study, you can't do it. But I mean just in terms for the everyday person when we're looking at researching, what's even researching like buying a product? You know, it's really good to be able to like what do you think are these two things?
It's great you actually can use AI, but it depends how so yes, Like for example, mine is a research PhD, so you've got to you know, run interpret data them. But I might write something or I might I can put actually in an entire academic paper from a journal and put it into Claude, which is an academic more academic AI tool. Yeah, and so give me a two hundred word synopsis of this, okay.
So could you use it for your that crown stuff of going? Can you find me similar studies in the last ten years?
Yep?
You can't use it to write your papers, yeah, you know, but yeah, definitely.
I even have got my like my kids or my daughter, for example, asked me a question about space. It was like a black hole thing and I didn't really know about it at all, and I asked, chactually be ten. It was a really complicated answer, and then I said, could you please explain that two a seven year old?
And they came up with a really good thing.
So it stuff like that I think can be really useful one hundred percent.
Yeah, I love that, and I love it when you know, even you could like say, you're trying to teach your kids a lesson about I don't know whatever, like self awareness or whatever. Right, yeah, you can ask you can ask it to write a story that explains self awareness and self regulation and you know, suitable for a seven to ten year old or it does, and it's like it subtly kind of blinds these reasonably complicated constructs in a way that kids can understand where they are. Oh,
I get that, I get that. Ye, I mean, I think, you know, people, I think with a lot of things, we're digressing a little bit. But I just think that with all of the resources and tools that we've got available tools. It's like, I don't think social media is good or bad. I think people use it poorly and people use it well. I think people share hate and people share love. It's like, you know, social media itself is just a tool. AI is just a tool, agreed. You can use it, you cannot use it. You can
pay attention, you cannot pay attention. But I think it's like most things anyway, is it depends what you do with that. It depends how you use that.
You know differently, and as part of I think just human nature, Like it's even with screen time or your phones, right, You're going to notice maybe times in your life where you're using it a bit more than you want and then you have to kind of read just and then maybe you feel like you're not using it as much as you.
Could and you want to, like you know, learn online or something.
So I just think there's always going to be this relationship with it and what we want, I think from a young age to start those conversations with the kids so that they.
Can self adjust. Like we're all trying to navigate this.
I haven't got a perfect either, and I would definitely be telling my kids out like we're all learning what works for us, what.
Doesn't the idea that social media is evil or AI is evil, or it's like, well, it's not going anywhere for a start, so you probably want to get used to it, especially AI. Yeah, and you know that doesn't mean that it's it's you know, it's more about, as you said, our relationship with it, how we behave around it, what we do with it. Yeah, how much we allow it to hijack our brain for our lives.
How much is it impacting our lives so impacting us from things that we really want to do. So you're right, it's like that self reflective kind of questions that we can continue to ask ourselves around it. But it's not inherent evil, And you're right, So I think it's good to.
Get on board a hunda, a hundo. So I wanted to ask you something which we haven't touched on before. I don't think do you talk to the kids that you work with and the parents of the kids and your kids, do you talk about bullying?
Yeah? See, this is a really good one.
So I noticed for schools, right, they had this like zero bullying policy, And I've never really agreed with that because what it kind of does that it demonizes like bullying, to like these are you know, people are bullying and these are bullies and these are not, and we just have no tolerance versus Look at a workplace, there's always going to be those.
Kind of behaviors.
I think it's more important to not label people as bullies or not, but rather understand really the root of those kind of behaviors and how we can manage it better. Right, how we can put boundaries in white does that? So I talk to kids a lot about our brains. So when our brain, you know, there's that part of our brain that's a bit like a guard dog, and we perceive danger.
Because we perceive danger, we want to.
Fight back, or we want to run away, or we freeze that kind of stuff.
Right.
I think that the more that they can understand that, and the more we can talk about these boundaries and what we can kind of do when we're in those situations, the more we're equipping them to actually deal with it when they're in the workplace or you know, with adults. So I think we're all capable of using those kind of behaviors, but we're also capable of not and so I really like to separate the person from the behavior and understand that these behaviors are often coming from a
place of protection or safety or not feeling safe. And you know how we can, yeah, understand why we do what we do right and put things in place.
Yeah, I'm going to go yeah.
But really, well, I agree with you.
But there are bully in school, so yeah, and of course, like let's not unfairly label anyone, and we're just talking.
Home, there's bullying in school, you mean, yeah, I mean I was talking to a very well known Australian you're both off air today, and her daughter.
Has been horribly I mean the shit that this girl's been subjected to horrendous, to the point where she had to leave the school that she was in. Yeah, right, and I mean legit bullying, horrible, horrible, terrible behavior and like in that case, and I know that's not most people, and that's not most cases, but that exists. And I don't know whether or not it's getting more airtime Sam and Tif or whether or not it's it's always been there,
but just we haven't spoken about it as much. But I don't know.
Yah, I mean, and that this is the hardest bit because when we see that kind of behavior, right, and we see like a clear imbalance where someone is really bullying the other, and we have so much emphasy for that person who's getting.
Bullied, you're going to kind of think of the bully.
You're like, someone's really going to be hurting to be able to project that like her. People hurt people, and so you kind of think of in nat child's life, where are they getting bullied, you know, or what's happening for them to feel the need to do that. So it is really hard, I think, because I think often school deals with it in a really like yep, this is a consequence of your behavior, and it's kind of the external stuff.
But we're still seeing this problem, So what are we missing?
Yeah, yeah, it's hard because at the same like I agree with you, I feel like you're right, well, absolutely right. Hurt people do hurt people, and understanding where this is coming from matters. But when you're getting kids who are more vulnerable getting like threatened, like threatened by kids who are bigger and stronger, and I fucking hate all that stuff. Now,
it's I don't know, like, of course we can't. You know, the bullies are people too, of course, and we can't, especially when we're talking about ten or twelve or fourteen year olds. It's very it's very complicated. It's very socially, emotionally, intellectually complicated. I don't think there's an easy or a quick answer, but yeah, it's it's.
Certainly it's really complex.
Well it's not going away either, it seems.
And like you said, though, like kids deserve to feel safe at school, and no one can learn when you're not feeling safe, Like these kids that are getting bullied. You know, if they're constantly fearing for getting hurt or you know that their safety, then they're not going to really be able to take in what they need to and then there's going to be gaps in their learning.
So I think it's difficult. But then you've got these.
Public schools that actually can't expel kids and they need to obviously every kid deserves an education. So how do they put these boundaries in place where we're trying to minimize the harm?
Yeah, all round, super complicated, and I mean extremely Like this terrible not long ago, a week or two, maybe a little bit more in Melbourne, this young girl took her own life a thirteen year old girl because of bullying, you know. And I'm like, I understand what you're saying, but part of me is like, fuck the bullies. It's I know that's not an answer, and that's just being reactive. But of course I have this protective gene and I
don't like adult bullies. I don't like kid bullies. I just don't like bullies, and I probably need to be Definitely, don't put me in charge because I won't create good outcomes.
No, I'm agreeing with what you're saying. You know, when you look at like how you know, targeted, some of these behaviors are, it's so triggering, and that's exactly what you do.
You're like, I want to protect this person.
But then it's hard because if we kind of switched over to the bully and we probably looked at their history or their childhood or when they were younger, they probably have had experiences of being bullied, and then you'd want to protect them, right, and then we keep going down.
So I agree, I agree, it's it's it's all right, let's finish on something a little bit more hopefully relevant for the average tips getting depressed over there.
I'm angry and depressed. Now lift it up, please.
Yeah, I know you're not a fan. You and I are not fans of bullies, are we, tiff?
No?
No, So I want to talk about praising kids. I want to know how much is enough and how much is like is there a point that's too much? Doctor Sam? Where you know we say to everything they do, oh, you're incredible, you're beautiful, that's amazing, when you know it's not always amazing, Like, is there too much?
I think so because you think about it, like, you know, kids end up picking up on the tone and how it can kind of come across as fake and in genuine when you're like, oh my god, that is incredible, and imagine that response for every single thing kid's going to kind of like everything will then just be treated the same. So I think it is important to be more I guess, genuine with maybe the comments that we're saying, but it also keep switching it up, you know.
Sometimes yeah, of course you want to be.
Like home like that's like, that's great, and you know, talk about I know, the specific bit of a painting that you love, But other times you might want to check in with how they feel and maybe not just jump to like overly praising it too, So I think
it's just trying to be a bit more genuine. It's great, positive reinforcement is amazing, but I think at the same time you also want kids to not just seek that out and also think about how do they feel about it, Like how do they feel about the effort right that they put in, or how do they feel about what they've created, or what do they like about it? So always having that balance, if letting them know they feel the support from us and all of that, but also they can hear their own voice too.
I have this little video in my head of a six year old, you know, taking a picture that they've just torn up to dad, and Dad looks at it and goes, well, that's shit. Try better or try harder
to do better. You know. It's like, yeah, I mean, And I think also when you're when you're telling them that every thing that they're doing is amazing and brilliant and the best and fantastic, then you're creating a precedent that's probably not healthy because when you don't do that, you know, it's like you're giving them all the dopamine all the time, or all the praise or all the whatever, and then it's yeah, it's it doesn't They don't have
the same experience anymore because they get desensitized because it doesn't matter what they do, they get praise and accolades exactly.
So that's what it doesn't come across as genuine, does it? Then?
Like would you want a friend like that? Then no matter what you do, it's like just that one response, that one it's amazing and you're like, Okay, do you really feel that way?
Think so. I think the more that we can kind of humanize that out of it, the better.
All Right. My last question is this, and it's quite a deep one or I don't even know. I'm sure you have an idea around this. I don't know what my idea is. But like one of the things that I talk about with grown ups a lot in this philos topical, psychological, you know, kind of self awareness space is around identity who we are and who we think we are and who others think we are. And in the middle of all of the shit that I'm not my job, I'm not my money, I'm not my body,
I'm not my brand, Like who am I? The identity piece? When do kids start to think about or have an awareness of their identity. Is this or is that something that happens in teenage years.
So there's probably definitely different schools of thoughts on this, but kids go through different developmental Like there's one kind of school of thought where they go through developmental crisises, you know, at certain stages. So kids will go through, say when they're toddlers, right of having this autonomy and independence, but then also like kind of like and that's why they like, I want to do it my way, you know, but they're also trying to go like you're having to.
Take the power, so they're kind of in that balance.
And so for kids in school years, it's more about the confidence like can I do this here? Know, when they're looking at the achievement side of things. And then usually it's the adolescence, which is the identity who am I? Where do I belong in this world? So in that way, that's usually the crisis of that developmental stage.
It's usually adolescents, but.
Kids start that from the get go, right when they're younger, like they are looking at their place in the world and you know, they're noticing similarities between their parents and that they are the peers and what.
They like to do.
So I think we should always be conscious of that if you know, they're figuring out their identity. But it usually becomes a bit of a crisis for them when they're in adolescents.
Is there a problem? Maybe this was just where I grew up, but a lot of the little girls were told constantly how beautiful they are, how pretty they are. It was all about how they looked, ye, not how smart they were or not how good they were at maths or Yeah. There was a lot of emphasis on appearance and a lot of praise or appearance, it seems like. And then so maybe am I correct in assuming that they might then identify who they are with what they look like.
Definitely be cause if you think about childhood, it's like survival, you know, in their mind of how do I get and how do I get love?
How do I receive love?
So kids notice from a very young age, Okay, when I act in this way, I get a lot of love, and when I don't, I don't really And so then they kind of mold themselves.
So for kids, yeah, they're getting praise when they look so.
Beautiful and they're so pretty, and how you do your hair and how you wear that.
What are they going to do? It's survival, It's a pattern they learn.
So they end up really focusing on that because that's how they get love and that's how they felt the most, you know, safe and accepted.
So what's the solution or the antidote to that as us go on?
So as be as they balance it out really, you know, making note of being able to notice those different things about your child, you know, what makes them them, and being able to identify that. I love how you like you know again, the things that we might be a bit annoidered with as parents. A lot of parents like they just want to do it their way.
Okay.
I love that you. You know, you advocate for yourself. You know exactly what you want and you want to tell.
Me about it. You know, you want to make sure that fighting for yourself. That's great. I like that about you.
Like being able to actually talk about the different attributes so that we're not just based on the physical stuff. We are looking at what makes them them and we're pointing that out for them and then you know, leaving that open for them to like what do you like about you? Like asking those kind of questions as well, to see what they notice other than just the looks with your pearance stuff.
That's why we have you, because you're the smartypants. You're the smartypants. Hey, how do people find you? Doctor Sam? Where are you at? Website and socials and all of that stuff?
Yep, you can find me on Instagram at doctor Samcasey or my website at www dot dotor samcc dot com.
And where can people find you? Tiff down at Albert Parkbeach or.
In all the places hYP in their bamboo out their back window.
Yeah, and tifcock dot com.
Tiffcook dot com. Perfect. I will say goodbye a fair but Dr Sam thanks love it and brilliant as always
Thanks very much for having me on here, Craig