#1852 The Other Version Of You - Bobby Cappuccio

or she wants a meeting. And people are probably amused to think that I'm scared of someone, I'm fucking scared. Going about that I'm scared. It's because they hold in a way, they hold your academic future in their hand, and you think you're in charge. You're not really in charge. You're just almost a passenger in your own project. But nonetheless it's good. So I resolved that I spoke with them, and here I am.

did you? And you're always reading research And even if I mentioned something, there's a fair chance you've read the paper or you know the authors, or you know the studies or you know the research is there. Did you get to a point in time where you when I don't need to and not that you do need to, By the way, I don't have any interest in doing a tigree or got in university or college as you signed the sites, because I can just read everything that's relevant to me and it doesn't matter to me.

a lot of times. He's he was a majority owner of that gym, and the relationship I formed with him was in every way transformative. And I remember being frustrated because I felt like I was dumber than everybody else. I couldn't sell like the salespeople did. I didn't understand what the trainers were talking about. And there I was, and I was in college, right. It wasn't an uniqu it was literally a college, smaller school, and I couldn't

find a direct application for what I was learning. And I was living on my own at eighteen, which I had to, and it was just a matter of if I don't start learning how to improve, I'm not going to have a job. And living alone at eighteen that's kind of like expensive, and that was a little bit scary. I can't go back home, so let me try to read on my own. Because I noticed that people around me were reading mostly mostly self help. That's where it started.

I was like, oh wow, I could get these ideas and the same day I can go into work I can listen to it in the morning, or read this book in the morning. Let me see what works. Oh wow, that worked or that didn't work. Most of the time, I wonder if if it's the information that's not applicable,

it's probably the way I'm applying it. So let me test other stuff, let me EXPERI meant, and that became enthralling for me to test something, see what happens, change your result, and eventually discover things that work that could be duplicated. So I kind of learned for its own sake. And a lot of times I'll pick up a book simply because I'm interested in it. It's not necessarily connected to anything I need to do at the moment, if that makes any sense.

And then people who are just like if I think of all the smartest people that I personally, you know, in my judgment and the people to me that are just in all ways, you know, or in most ways they have a kind of a functional, practical real world as well as sometimes scientific or whatever, but like a kind of an intelligence that's very very user friendly and

very helpful day to day. And you know, so like if I'm thinking about who do I want to talk about this with, like you're always in the top few on my list? Do you think that? Do you think, oh, you're welcome, it's absolutely true. Do you think that in twenty twenty five it's a disadvantage to not get a

degree or to not go to university or college. Do you think it's because I feel like it's becoming less and less relevant and important, especially a way that business and career is and stiles and services and products are evolving.

habit of going to and dropping out of Harvard. It almost seems to be the path to like massive success. So that can't be at one hundred percent true either. I think it comes down to one what is it that you want to do? Like, if you want to be an entrepreneur, do you absolutely need a degree? I mean a degree can A degree can help you. Someone's popping into my head and he's in there quite a

bit because he's he's a fantastic storyteller. I used to work with this guy, Frank and and he was the president of a company that I was part of the senior leadership team with. Actually that happened twice working with Frank And. Frank was an attorney and has his NBA, and he insisted that if you want to succeed as an entrepreneur, never go out and get your NBA. He had one, but he was like, don't go out and

do that. I think everything has something to offer you if you're willing to pull the most out of it. You know, why why is it you want?

I was in my twenties. I just wanted to learn as much as I could and apply as much as I could, keep at work, throw away what didn't. I didn't have time to follow a curriculum, and I'm someone who enjoys having a curriculum laid out for me. So I think it's like, what type of learner are you? Because learning the way College of structured didn't match my learning style at all. So that was a struggle. I thought.

I actually believed that I was incapable of learning like everyone else until I got out and I started learning my own. I started learning about my own learning style. So I think it's like, how do you learn what it is that you what do you want? And what are you willing to implement an extract from it. I think this is some important questions anyone should ask before you know, pursuing anything.

like really quite basic stuff. But you know, all of a sudden, I've got to you know, know the five adductors of the fema and where they originate and inserting for you know, whatever muscles of the quad or barber, all of these things that I kind of knew, but then and then you know all of the like the smaller muscles that oh yeah, the rotator cuff here, but

what are the two internal and external rotators? And you've got to remember everything, right, So and I remember just reading and reading and going and I was at this stage thirty six and reading and reading and like it's and I'm reading something and I'm thinking about a Hamburger like or whatever, like it's not and I'm like, it doesn't matter how much I read this. Within three four five lines, I am distracted and I'm sitting in a room with a book. And so I had to figure

out that. And I've told this once or twice before, but what worked in that instance for me with anatomy and then functional anatomy and then physiology and all of the stuff that I eventually did was Okay, so get out of the big fat book, get a highlighter, get a pen, and then write on your book and then write on the line the ship that you know that you need to know. Highlight the ship that you know

you need to know. And then I had basically what I think was a not a tape but a digital an early incarnation of a digital recorder all the luck and I would, you know, there's maybe twenty pages that I had to kind of know, and then that would be distilled into a couple of pages of must know and then I would record all of that into audio and I would go the four muscles of the quad are they you know? In certain to tell a ten?

And then the tibal tuberosity and the fucking whatever, right, and then I'd record all of that and then listen to it repeatedly, And that was how it got into my brain. But me trying to learn by looking at a book, reading stuff and then remembering the stuff. Even now, that doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for me.

It's like very very suboptimal. So I think the idea of learning how you best learn a little bit of trial and error is paramount for anyone who wants to do any kind of whether it's personal or professional development or academic endeavor. But it's figuring out how you best work in that space.

the things that it can do. If I'm going to go to incline, how many degrees of incline do I want? Optimally? I go back to my book and it's like okay, wow, So now I'm learning how this theory actually is applied. So yes, and I would talk about it. I would listen to things as well. I did the same thing. I record myself, which was painful at first, but then at the end of the week, you've applied the information you've read, the information you've listened to the information you've taught,

the information you're saturating multiple learning modalities. You're gonna learn faster if it's actually something that you're interested in, that you deeply care about. That's a high level of engagement. You're gonna seek out more and more information because your self efficacy or confidence is increasing, but so is your capacity. You're you're expanding your ability to engage with the world relative to that information. I think that's really exciting, and

you could do that. I mean, you could do that on your own. If you're that type of person. You can do that in university. Let me flip Let me flip this on you. Since you've been going for your PhD, what has been the single most impactful aspect of that experience on the pay.

single thing. But as I've said many times, like I'm not a natural academic, right, and so for me being an environment that's not my natural habitat doing a thing that doesn't come easily or naturally learning a new language, it's been apart from the actual practical process of designing research, running research, interpreting data, writing papers, learning you know how to write academically, learning how to apply to journals and stand in front of a board and do you performance reviews.

You know, four of those I had to do. I've done them all. I've got through them, which is all the practical stuff. But really for me just doing something where I don't think I ever get ahead of myself, because I've never thought I'm a genius. But realizing that one there's so much that I don't know and now I'm learning. But two, I can start a PhD at fifty six and do it. I can finish it at

sixty one. I can become whatever, a doctor of psychology at sixty one I can do, you know, So for me a little bit about confidence, a little bit about understanding myself, and you know, on a practical level, how to do real world research, to design studies, to get bums on seats, to get ethical approval, to advertise for participants, to figure out, no, you can't do that cretic and you can't talk like that, and you can't write like that,

and you can't get participants that way. And by the way, here are thirteen design flaws in your methodology or your intended You know all of that where you're like, oh, this has to be perfect or as close to perfect as you can do. Whereas as you know, I'm a little bit you know, I'm Freddy freestyle. I'm like, well, let's just see, Like yesterday I did a six hour corporate and I turn up and I speak, and I have no notes and I have no PowerPoint and I

have no and it went well. But I'm in the moment, I'm in flow, I'm reading the room, I'm and all of that stuff with works with that task or that role. That doesn't work doing a PhD because there's none of that. So for me learning by the way, you know, just because you maybe have a little bit of a profile crag, that doesn't mean anything just because you think you're a bit funny. Nobody cares just because you think you're a bit clever. In some ways, you're not hearing the dunst

in the room. And you know, I think, and I'm in that in a self loathing way at all, just a self a wems way. So it's been many, many times more beneficial than I thought it would be.

for word and memorize it. So if you're going to give a forty five minute keynote, like you know, you're going to have like, however many pages? I know I had like over twenty pages. I think that was a little bit too much. You're going to scale back. But it's like literally from Hello, introducing yourself all the way to thank you word for word that is for me personally, or recipe for a nightmare of a presentation. I don't think that way. I don't function that way, although lately

I've been preparing for speeches that way. That's that's a totally different podcast. And I remember I was telling life, you know, I don't know if I if I'm really in the right mastermind. I think this was a mistake. This is so anathetical to how I think, how I learn, how I perform. She's like, that's why you need to do. It's like if you never take any of their advice, just do what they tell you to do and learn how to do something well like develop a let maybe

not mastery. You're not going to spend ten years on this, but develop a level of proficiency with this just because it opens up different insights and pathways. You could throw it all away if it doesn't work for you, but go through it. That's the exact reason. So the question I have for you is if you were going to let's say the day you got your PhD, like you know what, I'm over this, I'm not going to use this for anything, in what ways would you be more

more well equipped, more insightful. What would be the benefits in your life and work for going through the process even if you never use it for anything.

and methodological understanding around how things work. So there's that, But Honestly, I feel this is going to sound like cheesy, but I feel more humble and grounded because I realize how smart so many people are, how much stuff there is to know, how little I know. And I guess when, like yesterday, I'm going to say the name, I'm going to give a shout out to the company. I did a gig for a company called Fireline. Shout out to them.

They were great and we were together not six hours, five hours from eight to one ish.

we not doing great? And I think like being in that environment now with all the experiential insight and understanding and working with teams and athletes and all the shit I've done for forty years and then working on the last five and a half years of this academic process. I guess it gives me more confidence to speak about things that I once felt like a fraud to speak about. And that's more about my insecurity and my self doubt and my imposter syndrome than it is now. I'm a

genius and I can talk with confidence rot. So I guess that the long winded answer is in pought confidence and awareness.

outcome or an experience to fruition. So when you think about how many people are working in industries that have nothing to do with what they majored in, still probably a lot of benefit that they want to university anyway. So I guess, and that's just where I sit. Whatever it is, whatever journey or path you're taking, yeah, road less traveled, just just go far down that path, like, go for it. So I think who you become at the end of that, and what you experience and what

that opens up for you. It makes your life a lot bigger if you allow it to.

get tripped up because there's so much bullshit. So what's your advice for people who want to educate themselves using the Internet and all the various websites and resources and portals as basically you know their go to for like, how do we how do we decipher and filter through what is true and what is bullshit? And what is

a sales pitch? I know there's no three step answer to this, but what's your broad advice, Because I mean you, this is where both of us, you and I do a huge amount of online stuff where we're researching and we're picking through this stuff. But what's your advice?

What what exactly is the outcome you're looking for? And this doesn't have to be well, I'm going to increase fifty sales you know a year to hit my income goal of you know that it can be that it could be something intrinsic in you, a shift, but clearly know what it is that you're after and what did

you you're trying to do. And if you start with a question, you can go to chat GPT and say, well, here's a question I have, you know, pretend that you know you were my you know, professor, Yeah, where should I go? What are all the references I should look at out of those? You know, given the context of I'm asking this question with the intention of what are the top five or ten and just start there. I

mean with research. You know, we were talking about something before you hit the record button where somebody comes out and says, well, study show that's one of the most irritating statements that anyone can make, because one, I think it's I think it's a little bit manipulative. I'm not saying it's always intentional, but it's a little bit manipultive. Number two, what studies? What was the methodol like, what

were the end values? Was it of a duplicated But I think that's where you have to decide your line of evidence. What is your line of evidence, and if it's line of evidence is just what is it that's acceptable for you in terms of efficacy and quality information? So you know your your line of research for some people, your line of evidence for some people is like a randomized, you know, double blind experiment, that kind of it. And this has to be duplicated. You know who else has

produced the same result? Is it one study showed this or is it well, you know what we've done a meta analysis of twenty seven high quality studies published in High impact factor. That's just that's just showing the quality of the journal that's published in. Right, So low impact factor would be like Capuccio's journal, don't read that journal if you want to see it, or or nature would be on the other end of that. So let's say you know, there are twenty five quality studies published and

they all pretty much are saying the same thing. Well, you know, that's kind of assuring that what you're reading and the answer to that question has some validity behind it. Or you know, let's take sales. I might not be able to point to a study, but I might talk to some of the top sales people in my organization that are constantly being brought up at the national event every year because they're at the top of the company. I'm like, well, would you sit with me and help me?

You know, what do you think makes you as effective as you are? You know, with all the successes you've had over your career, what do you attribute most to that? Well,

that's not research, that's purely anecdotal. But then you talk to another salesperson, like let's say number two in the company, and then you talk to someone who's number one in a different industry, and there are some correlations there as long as it's as long as it's not unethical, What they're doing and you trying it is not going to hurt yourself with others, experiment with stuff and see what works.

So that's a completely different line of evidence. When you're getting your PhD. That's not a line of evidence that's really going to work for you. When I'm trying stuff out in the world, my line of evidence is my decision. So know what that is. And you know, like two emotions. I don't know if there are emotions, they could be mental states that you need to learn effectively, both psychologically neurobiologically.

Is curiosity and frustration? What are you curious about? And are you challenging yourself enough to where you're frustrated to creating the biochemical environments in your brain to optimize focus and learning.

brings a lot of value. I think if you're constantly engaging in ideas that expand your imagination and your scope of possibilities and your interests, it's like, oh, I want to try that, I want to learn more about that. That's fascinating. I just think it requires a combination of doing your own I don't want to say research, but your own learning process, questioning everything you hear. You can go to Google scholar and type in you know, triggers, cues,

and habit formation see what comes up. So if somebody's recommending something on Instagram, it could be the greatest advice in the world, or you know, they could be an end value of one. It could have worked for them nobody else. You have enough tools now where you can go and investigate and let your curiosity drive you. Here's an example, right. I think I've talked about this on the show because it was a hilarious point in my life.

But I was listening to a self help speaker. I'm not going to mention any names, and what they were talking about was the Yale Study of nineteen fifty three. Now, as I'm saying this, you probably know what I'm talking about already. You've come across this for those of you

who haven't. Back in nineteen fifty three, Yale University and Ivy League School in the United States surveyed the entire graduating class and they asked them a specific question, how many of you have clearly defined written goals and plans for their achievement. And what was interesting is either the entire graduating class of nineteen fifty three at Yale, only three percent had clearly defined written goals and plans for their achievement. And they followed these people for twenty years,

all the way up to nineteen seventy three. And then when they went back and they interviewed these people again, what they found was astonishing. The surviving members of the nineteen fifty three class that had clearly defined written goals and plans for their achievement were earning more than the other ninety seven percent. But what is really powerful about that is they were earning more than the other ninety

seven percent combined. Now, Harvard did a very similar study years later, and they found the same exact results and the same exact ratios. And I went ahead when I heard that, and I started clearly writing out my goals and plans for their achievement. And one year from when I had done that, half of the goals that I had written down for myself, whether you know, whatever level of ambition as a person who's just you know, turned twenty would have I achieved them now, neither the Yale

study nor the Harvard study ever took place. It's an urban myth because Fast Company magazine credible publication. Lawrence Tayback was a researcher and he was interested in this, and he researched the Yale and Harvard study, and no one at Yale nor Harvard had any information on a study like that ever having taken place. So you'll hear something from self help and you'll run with it like, wow,

this is amazing. And they even contacted Fast Companies team contacted a couple of speakers that had actually said this quite often, and the response was, well, if it's not true, it ought to be. Yes, that's kind of interesting. But there's two ways you can take it. One, you had people that sold tons of books, seminars, tapes deceiving their audience. It's an outright lie. Whether you know it's a lie.

Maybe you read a book from someone who read a book that was written by somebody who made this stuff up, but you are deceiving people. On the other hand, half of my goals were achieved because there's a lot of science behind goal setting and what goal setting does and how it changes the biochemistry in your brain, how it supports mental health, how it supports resilience. So and you know, if your goals are aligned to your values, there's engagement

and there's a sense of well being there. So you're probably going to work longer, You're going to try more stuff. There's a lot of validity, even though the actual story was fictitious. So there's two ways you could frame that. And if you're listening to this, I'll let you decide which one is more powerful for you.

Then there's the doing. So the idea, the intention, the goal of the plan. You know that to do list is all theory, but it's then you know, stepping into what can be the uncertain, uncomfortable, unfamiliar, unenjoyable at times

process like the idea of doing shit. The goal, the intention is not the same as the work right, And I think that that's being able to set a goal easy, being able to execute the goal, being able to consistently act on the goal through peaks and troughs and motivation and focus and excitement and support, all of that stuff. That's the challenge.

What they leave out very often is the how. And if you're not taking the look at research and the what the empirical evidence says, and you're taking things at face value, you're gonna become frustrated and you're going to start to develop erroneous beliefs. About yourself and has nothing to do with something that you lack internally. It's just that you don't have the mechanism and the vehicle. Like if you are going to race and you know you could be the greatest car driver in the world, you

could be a Formula one driver. If your race against someone who's in a Honda, but all you have is a golf cart, You're not going to win. You just don't have the right vehicle. And you can tell yourself stories about how, man, if I only would have driven harder, if I only was more motivated, you know, if I only wanted it more. No, dude, you were in a

golf court. So they'll say things like what you just said execution, But when you look at the research, how do people execute and how do they go about achieving their goals dealing with sets yes in order to increase the probability that they'll succeed or at least maintain those

behaviors in the long term. You know, one thing that self help comes up with is, you know, happiness is a decision, right, So if I'm someone who is just crimogeneous and I'm miserable, and maybe I'm going through something that I haven't explored. Holy shit, now I'm guilty because I'm not a positive person. I need to side well. When when you look at the research that has been duplicated by many qualified researchers, fifty percent of happiness is genetic.

It's heredity, natural selection, gene mutation. You're not gonna do a damn thing about that, no matter how much you decide. Another ten percent is situational. I lost my job, Well, that's going to impact your happiness, especially in the immediate You're gonna habituate to that. You know, we habituate to really good things happening to us. We kind of habituate,

thankfully to really bad things happening to us. But you have the forty percent in between there, and none of that forty percent, according to the research, falls into the category of decide or just do it. There are specific behaviors that people engage in. You know, you don't go out and find happiness. You do happiness. So just that happiness is a choice that's gonna make me very unhappy.

It's also going to prevent me from engage in things like affective labeling, which the research says is one of the most important things you need to do if you want to avoid ruminating on negative emotions or just suppressing them for the rest of your life and exacerbating your discontentment. So things like that get me going, like, there's got to be there's got to be a how like you going for your PhD? Imagine this right, you sit down

with you know, you're seeing your supervisor. He says, Craig, here's here's like all the information, here's all the data, and we expect the thesis, go after it. And then you come back and it's like, well, okay, well I don't know how to make sense of this. Well look, Craig, if you want the PhD, you just have to want it bad enough. Discipline yourself, stay up late into the night, wake up early in the morning. We want that thesis. To me, that's someone who has no idea how to

guide you. So they're putting it on you so then they can say, well, you didn't do what I told you to do. You didn't do the work. No, there's a very specific process, and that process is there for a reason. It doesn't excuse hard work. It demands it, but it structures it. And when something goes wrong and I'm assuming in a PhD. There are a lot of those moments. You know how to notice it, evaluate it, and begin again more intelligently as a result of it,

and probably learn more than if that never happened. That's process.

few people laugh. And you know, I just got some feedback this morning from a gig that I did through a speaking agency for an organization last week, and it was lovely, It was wonderful, it was amazing and very positive, right, all you know, nice stuff. And then which is good because as a speaker, you don't want them to say your shit. You want them to go that was good. We enjoyed him, he did a great job. We want

to get him back. We would recommend him highly right, tickety boo, as Paul Taylor says, you've ticked the box. And that's good, freer and good for business. But there's this other bit where like, I know that I can turn up and do my job. I know that I can be funny, tell stories being gained you. Not always, not every time do I kill it or crush it. But most of the time, especially after four hundred years of practice, most of the time it's somewhere between okay

and pretty good. Right. But I really have this awareness that in many instances like that, when a speaker gets up and talks, then he or she gets off the stage and goes away and never sees that audience ever again.

And then while that audience might be temporarily inspired, motivated, you know whatever, impressed, the amount of people who will then take away those ideas, thought, strategies, information and operationalize it and actually create real world change and do something and keep doing something, and that moment in time with Bobby or Craig or Sally or Donna on the stage, that moment in time will become the catalyst for something

truly transformative. That's a different question. And so now I've been doing this thing where I leave a few minutes at the end where I almost like walk over, sit on the edge of the stage, swing my feet, and I'll just go, look, here's the deal. You know, we just had a good time. I made you laugh, I told you some stories. I think for the most part you liked it. You see, pretty engaged in connected. That's

all good. But and then I'll talk about what really matters is not the hour that we just had, but what happens next. And again that's not fixing it or solving it, but I'm just trying to impress upon them the importance of, you know, the actual journey versus the theory of the journey.

is their day. But those numbers, those numbers are pretty consistent. And I understand because I've heard professionals in the fitness industry, trainers saying the effect of what is wrong with ninety

seven percent of the people? And I think I don't agree with that statement, but I think it's a fair statement because when you dedicate your life to hopefully adding value to others through what it is that you can teach or import or how you can help or guide, it's really frustrating because I think a lot of people that get into those professions, not all, but a lot of they're really invested in seeing people transform and having a better experience of life. But I think a more

powerful question becomes what's different about the three percent? Like what is really different without without a throwaway word like well, it's confidence, it's you know, it's discipline, it's you know, character, What exactly does that mean? Like, explain that function in the brain when you say that, But what is different? About the three percent that take action versus the ninety seven percent that don't. You know, but that's a big question.

a range of reasons. Ah, you know, some people are just not ready and like starting when you're not really ready, like you're really really not ready to do the work and keep going. It's probably better that you don't start rather than starting throwing throw it in and start and throw it in. To say, I say to people all the time, you know, what do you want? But then cool, of course, you know what would you talk about? And

the why, the driver the real reason. But then there's the how fucking much do you want it?

in a play state. For for a mammal, that's very dangerous because if he was out in the wild the time he's playing, he's not vigilant about predators, he's not hunting at the moment. It's pretty risky business. So why is so much of mammalian behavior dedicated to play? There's a lot of reasons. It helps us socialize with one another. It allows us to experiment out in the world and try stuff out and figure out who we are and where our places within you know, within that troop, within

that clan, you know, whatever. So I think going around and experimenting with things and seeing what clicks does work, there is value in that. So if you're like, ah, I don't know, well, you know what? So what like? What are you interested in? What are you hoping happens here?

Number one, you are in the top ninety percent of anyone working in your industry today. And if you're not in the top ninety percent, you're well on your way because less than ten percent of the people take the time to read the books and go to courses. And

I don't know where they got that stat from. And so they're talking to me about all the things they know about me and it's like that sounds manipulent, But when you look at it from a behavior change perspective, if you can point out to someone where they're already taking action so before they go out and execute, it's like, listen, you've already executed, You've already engaged. You're already the type

of person that does this stuff. Right, So you've bought a ticket to the event, You've gotten in a car, a train, a plane, you've taken off from work, or you've missed a weekend. You've already sacrificed and done the work. You're that person. What is the most valuable thing you've heard from the stage today? What really lands with you? What's one thing in the next seven days you can do to build on this momentum. Because I think that's

different than Okay, hey, go out and do something. Use this versus you've already done this, because that languaging is connected to probability of action. So it's just something I'm thinking about, like because I don't want to. I don't want to trash self help because there are things I look at I'm like, oh wow, I think I was wrong about that. You know, two years from now, I'll probably have a different idea.

that's so, that's not the thing. That's just my story about the thing, and my story about the and the actual thing. I'm not the same, and just having that awareness of where my reality finishes and the objective whatever

it is, begins. You know. So for me, all of that stuff which just made me, for a range of different reasons, pause and reflect and consider the fact that life didn't need to be the way it was, or I didn't need to be the way I was, and that I could actually be Obviously I was always going to be me, but I could be a better, modified, you know, slightly sociologically, psychologically, physiologically different version of me.

Like that That's what. Yeah, that just kind of lit affusing me that has kept going forever.

So there was that version of me, and then there was the past version of me, and my story about the past version of me that profoundly shape my reality probably still does. But when I started listening to self help, it dawned to me there's another version of me. There's the future version of me that's kind of unformed yet,

and it's a certain trajectory. You know, like if you hop on a train and the train's going west and all of a sudden it's the last stop you can't take credit for, like, wow, look how far west I've gone. You couldn't have done otherwise you hopped on a westbound train. But you know, if you got off the train and you read a couple of maps and you started navigating and you made you took a different series of actions,

well you can completely take credit for where you ended up. Well, no, actually, the conductor of the people drive in the train, but you are partly responsible for where you ended up. And I was like, there's a future version of me. There's many Wow, I wonder what I can do to live into some of the more attractive possibilities. Yeah, yeah, that dawned on me. It's like I could shape myself. I don't have to be this person. I could become someone different. Now.

That brought with it a lot of benefits. I did some things that you know were my best attempt, but you know, in retrospect it ill advised. So it brought about a lot of consequences as well. But it created the possibility it's possible to change. That was that was enthralling for me.