Doctor Bill, Welcome back to the You project, my friend, how are you?
I'm doing great, Craig, how about yourself?
I know I am very good, very good. I tell you what. As somebody who has done a little bit of TV, or in Australia we call it telly, a little bit of telly over the years, I used to work on a show here and I used to do a weekly gig. I'm pretty impressed by your TV skills. I watched you recently talking about what we're going to talk about today. But do you like doing TV? Do you do you get stressed? Do you feel comfortable? How do you go with it?
I usually don't get stressed or feel uncomfortable. The major challenge I face is trying to condense a huge amount of information into a very short period of time, because in contrast to like writing or doing podcasts like yours, I'm given three maybe five minutes tops, and there's way too much information to pack in to that. So a lot of great stuff doesn't get said, and I always feel like I forgot something important. But as far as nerves and stuff go, at least I don't have that.
Yeah, that is the ever present challenge of that kind of media because you are trying to distill mountains of information, and you know, you and I said to you before we started a minute ago, let's like keep this to about thirty minutes. Now, thirty minutes for you and I as a brief chat. But in the context of television, that's forever.
Oh yeah, you'd have to be a megastar to get thirty minutes of airtime on the Telly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I used to Sometimes we'd we'd go I'd go in and we'd be talking about something, you know, significant, like you know, body dysmorphia, bodage, body image, eating disorders, you know, all like this is complex and big, and you'd have yeah, like you said, five minutes, and there'd be time for by the time I answer that question, you know, I question one, and then I talk a bit, then question two, and there
might be three or four questions, and then it's like, Craig, it's always great having you coming up next, you know, and then you're like, oh, well, we it's over. We didn't actually talk about anything, but thanks.
Yeah. Yeah. You always want to circle back to something, and that actually sometimes, especially when you're doing stuff like I do in terms of like health and medicine. Sometimes you leave out some really important information or caveats that they just don't give airtime for. So that is a real challenge and I think it sometimes does the public at disservice.
Yeah. And the other part of it too is apart from the brevity, is the fact that you're trying to distill science and research and you know, daughter and blah blah blah in a way that you know, the average person sitting in their lounge eating their chicken palmesana and their fries can distill an on all their breakfast or whatever the case might be, can actually understand.
Dinner time here, man, you're making me hungry.
Yeah, sorry, dude, Then in a way that they can understand what you're talking about and then maybe even better operationalize that information to get some kind of benefit exactly exactly.
It takes a little time to process and stuff. I get their side of the coin too. They have to pack in a huge amount of news in just like thirty minutes, and human attention span is shrinking and shrinking decade by decade, and now it's to the point where even like a ten minute segment for some people it feels like that goes on forever, and like you said, like a thirty or sixty minute chat with you, for some of these people who are used to three to
five minutes snippet, this might seem like an eternity. So yeah, exactly, it's a little worrisome that the attention span is drinking so much, and I'm not quite sure that it is good for our mental health moving forward.
I think because there's a there's just an overload of available stimuli in the media social media space. You know, there's like even I that was arrogant, even I doctor Bill, even I, who's clearly a genius. I can go, yeah, I can go down the Instagram rabbit hole for five minutes, and now I look up, it's actually been thirty minutes and I'm just looking at bullshit for thirty minutes. I'm like, yeah, okay, so I'm not clever at all, and they've figured me out.
The algorithm has got the better of me.
Yep, yep, it knows us better than we know ourselves.
Oh, Socrates would be rolling in his grave.
I tell you, there was a there was a song. You mean you mean that you probably know the group Duran Duran right big down Under two. They had a song called too Much Information that was released in the early nineties before the Internet was even a thing. So I'm wondering, you know, if they thought there was too much information in the world even before the Internet, what they must think now, because, like you said, there's just so much stuff out there, and our minds simply aren't
wired to absorb and receive all this information. It just not built that way. You know. We're a you know, a primate species that's used to sitting around a campfire and telling stories about no more than like one hundred different people. That's how we evolved for millennia. So to ask us to be able to manage the extraordinary amount of information that's out there right now is just a herculean task. And I think a lot of people stress themselves out because they don't get to all the information
that's there. And we shouldn't be doing that, you know, we just should be acknowledging our limitations and trained to actually cut back on all the different types of media we absorb, with exception, of course, of the U Project podcast.
Which has been proven clinically to be life extending, an immune system supportive, and a myriad of other benefits. I'm pretty sure about the science. I couldn't quote you, but I'm pretty sure.
I'm pretty sure I read studies to that effect too. Man.
But then, also, apart from the overload, doc is also the how does the average punter, and I call me an average punter delineate differentiate between the information, the misinformation, the science, the pseudoscience, the actual research based psychology, the pop psychology, because it all kind of can look and feel and sound the same, and you don't know what is real and what is essentially fear mongering, what is pseudoscience, what is perhaps marketing and branding to sell you something.
It's getting harder and harder every day because with the ability to manufacture photo and video, and there's a lot of jokes in satire that go viral before people realize, oh, that was a joke, that's not real. We've got to
be very careful about trusting the information we have. So my advice in that regard is to simply identify reliable sources that you can count on, that are accredited or have some kind of expert analysis, that have been around for a long period of time, maybe who have been audited or reviewed by a third party that says, yes, this is a legitimate news source. That's what you have to rely on, and even they sometimes will get it wrong.
So everything you hear, it's nice to validate it through an independent source.
Yeah, definitely, definitely all right, So let's get to our topic at hand, he says, as he picks up his iPhone. That's clearly germ laden. So you did you sent me a couple of ur Well, you sent me an interview that I watched in an article that was written by Jasmine Cheers. I think her name is Indiana Health. Recently, both good interviews. The TV show needs to give you more air time. I'll let them know. But around I think the name of the hang on, I'll find it.
I've got it. I've got it. Keeping your phone clean can help present prevent you from getting sick. So I've written two working titles for today's episode. One is called one is called Texting on the Crapper and Other Great bark Pastimes, and the other one is called the Perils of Pooh Scrolling. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure what I'm going to go with. It depends on the conversation. But let's open the door doc.
You know, I can't wait to put that title on my website. That's just going to be wonderful.
Yeah, well, you could maybe do a paper on that, the perils of post scrolling. I feel like it's going to get both academic and media attention.
Well, well, this story about germs on our cell phone comes up every now and then whenever another news study kind of confirms the same thing or finds a new type of germ on the phone that hasn't been reported before, you see this. You know, you know, this information gets circulated through the major news channels time and time again, but it is It is a good reminder to folks because I think we take a lot for granted when it comes to our phone and we don't recognize it
as a potential germ spreading device. And especially you know, if you have young kids or other people might use your and then you're using it, that's when a lot of nasty germs can get spread around. So the way this another headline that you might want to consider for the title of this particular episode, Craig. One of the lovely analogies that someone made is that your cell phone actually has more germs on it than your average toilet seat.
And that's that's science right there. That's a demonstrable fact. Of course, it depends on the toilet seat you're looking at. But I think what they were going after is that there's a wider diversity of germs on your phone than you would find, say, in a restroom. And we can talk about some of those different types of germs that scientists have cultivated off the phones. And I'll stay right up front, this is not to start a panic or
to get people paranoid about using their phones. Just because researchers can cultivate certain germs off the phone doesn't necessarily mean they're making people sick on a wide scale. It means the potential is there, and the science that shows these germs are present on the phone is good. You know, it's been shown multiple times, not through just like a one off study or one laboratory. A study came out in twenty twenty that looked at all the cell phone
analyzes and it looked at them collectively. It was composed of like somewhere north of fifty different studies in twenty four different countries, and they're all finding the same things. Our cell phones are filthy, and they contain these microscopic germs that we can't see, and they could be making us sick. And the could be making us sick. Is important to emphasize because there's a lot fewer studies that actually show the germs on the phone can make people sick.
But since the potential is there, I think it's worth talking about. It's worth letting people know because they're simple precautions you can take just in case you're worried about getting sick from germs on your phone.
You'd be very proud of me. I had to look at that scoping review. There's a lot of authors on that paper, and it's yeah, I think you're right, like correlation is not necessarily you know, causation. But and also the thing, it's really about awareness, not panic. You know.
It's like, well, so this is happening, just so you know, you don't need to run around now and be stressed, but just so that you're aware this is I think also, like I'm looking at my phone, which is just a run of the mill bread and butter iPhone fourteen.
Well, I can see the germs on it from here.
Yeah, I'll look at it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that is just crawling with germs. Yeah, it's where have you been, Craig.
It's like a bloody science experiment all by yourself. But I think the beauty of these is that because it's just a clean glass surface compared to you know, not long ago we had all the phones with all the buttons and all the kind of crevices and nooks and crannies that I guess dirt and scum and whatever could get caught in. So I don't know. My guess would be that these would be less of a risk than something with a lot of moving parts and kind of buttons.
Yeah, you might be right about that. But some of the types of bacteria, for example, that they've cultured off the phone, and I can elaborate on what those germs are exactly. They can form these substances called biofilms. And again these are still still microscopic. You can't see them, you can't feel them, but they can actually settle on any smooth surface. It doesn't necessarily need to have texture or ridges. You know that the germs can hide in.
They can form on flat surfaces, and depending on the nature of the germ, some last longer out in the atmosphere than others, you know, and they can be transmissible. They'll get onto your phone, which get onto your finger. You put your finger into your mouth when you're eating or something like that, and there's the potential for germs to get inside your body that way.
Yeah, it was funny you said that because I put my phone down, and you can say this, my listeners can't. But then I went like.
This where I've literally I'm resting my elbows on the desk and then I've got my face my lips pressed up against my prayer hands while I'm concentrating on you.
And as that was coming out of your mouth, I'm like, yep, well I'm doing that right now. It is funny, how for great?
Yeah?
Yeah, and you do it unconsciously, that's right.
I forget the exact number, but there were studies that monitored how many times a day people would just naturally touch their face and it's ridiculously hot. I forget what the exact amount is, but you just illustrated perfectly what most people do every day. You use the phone, sometimes on the toilet, and then bam, you know, you're picking picking your ear, You're rubbing your eye, picking your ear,
picking your nose whatever. The point is, those dirty fingers go right up to your face more often than not.
It's so funny because when we think about, you know, personal health management, we don't think about how often do I clean my phone? You know, that's not a question that's ever asked. Yeah, that's not a question that's asked in any medical consult So tell me, Brian, how often do you clean that phone that's there on the desk?
Yeah, And I'm glad this is why you wanted to talk about the subject, because it's one that most people don't give any thought to, you know, like you, they think that phone is a pretty smooth surface these days, and you know, probably doesn't have a lot of germs on it. But according to these studies, it actually does. And it's not too surprising if you give it a little more deeper thought because we take these things everywhere we go. They're always with us, almost like an attached limb, right,
and we rarely give any thought to cleaning them. Nor do we wash our hands after we use the phone. You know, we will go right from phone usage to eating or putting on makeup or something like that, and without washing our hands in between, and that just you know, if these studies are right and there's a lot of germs on the phone, that could be one of the reasons why you might get sick and say, how did that happen? I wasn't around sick people. I don't know
how I got sick. Well, now the phone can be one of the possibilities.
When I read the article this morning earlier, I went into my bathroom. So I have a thing. This is a side note, but I have a thing called pernicious anemia. So I need to inject a vitamin B twelve about once a week. And part of that is little medical swabs swab things, you know, where you wipe the skin and then you inject and then you wipe it and then you whatever. So I've got a bunch of those.
And I took my phone out of the case and cleaned it within an inch of its life with a medical swab, So for at least a solid three minutes it was super clean.
Yeah, I bet it probably would have been much cleaner after that.
Yeah, So what should we use to clean it? Like, what's actually for people listening to this now, who go, well, I don't have those at my joint. What is effective. What's a good cleaning, whatever compound.
A good way to I mean, there's multiple different types of germs on the phone. There's going to be viruses, there's going to be bacteria, and we should talk about the just so people have a better idea as to exactly what types of things we're dealing with. And even in some of the studies they found fungal spores like Candida, which can cause yeast infections. Find all of those on these phones, but all of them can be wiped out with an alcohol based disinfectant wipe. So I assume they
sell these in Australia as well. They easy to come by in the States, and they're just like single use wipes. You take them out of the pack your phone, give your phone a good rub down with one of those. It'll smell a little ALCOHOLI that's just fine, But that will disinfect your phone really well and it won't damage the electronics. And if you're looking for other ways to do it, I would consult the manufacturer's instructions because you do want to make sure whatever you're using doesn't damage
the device itself. I read the chlorox disinfectant wipes are also good as long as they don't have bleach. Bleaches too corrosive and that can start to damage the finish that is on some of the phones. The last thing you want to do is like submerge it in like a soap and water bath or use you know, like
too much alcohol on it. The wipes are they can they're not saturated with the alcohol, disinfect that they have just enough to kill the germs and clean off something small like an iPhone or even an iPad and then you can throw them right away. You can do multiple devices with a single wipe as well, you know, if you want to conserve. Yeah, but that all goes with all those different types of germs.
Well, one of those one of the good things to come out of the pandemic, if I can say there was a good thing but anyway, was in you know, in Australia. We've spoken about this briefly, but the gyms were closed for nearly a year, like it was lo down anyway. As somebody who trains every day, that was somewhat distressing, but enough about my emotional and psychological issues
and addictions. Anyway, one of the good things to come out of it was that in well, the gym I train at anyway, they have these wipes that get pulled out of like a dispenser doctor bill. They're about the size of a tissue I guess a kleenex, and they're wet, they're kind of all they're dampish, and they are I
think they're alcohol based, and they're used for cleaning. And you know, because gyms are breeding grounds for everything, and you think about how many times a day you know, like a barbell, a bar that sits on a bench press. There's not often when I like the gym that I train at, there's only two free weeight bench presses. You know, there's pinloaded, there's other things, but in those bench presses with a bar bell on it, they are never not used.
Like it's that that bar would get touched hundreds of times a day by hundreds of people, most of whom don't wipe the bar down after they're finished or wipe their hands. Some do, but most don't. Yeah, there's I mean, talk about an environment with a million surfaces with a trillion bugs.
Yeah, it just sounds like a golden opportunity for some of these germs to get into people and spread around. And I'm sure you've also observed people going to the gym when they're obviously sick or still struggling with something. You know, they're still getting over some illness, but they're there and they're probably transmitting these germs.
And you think about we're all in a room where the door closed and everyone's breathing heavier and harder than normal.
You know, the gym is not the only place of all places, you know, I've been to microbiology lectures where there's someone sitting there coughing through the whole damn thing, or you know, sneezing like crazy, just a couple of
seats down for you. And I'm like, you're at a microbiology lecture talking about germs, and here you are spreading yours all around, And I just like, man, So it's certainly not limited to the gym, and everyone should just kind of be a little more considerate of other people. If you are actively sick and having symptoms, you shouldn't be going out in public if you can avoid it.
Yeah, yeah, that is that is ro any being in that audience.
Just tell me about it. Yeah, it's like that is the epitome of you know, bad human nature.
So there's also and again this is a question not an assertion, but there's an idea that exposure to bacteria, viruses, fungi, and other micro organisms ply a role in developing a level of immunity or strengthening the immune system. What's that? Do we have any idea around because I'm thinking someone raised in a completely sanitary environment, which can't really happen, but that's not going to be great for us, say that. Is there any kind of thinking around that.
What you're describing sounds like the hygiene hypothesis, And this is an idea that, especially during our younger years, when we're still developing, we need to be exposed to a certain amount of germs in order to educate our immune system how to fight these germs off later on. And a lot of these studies emerged out of the observations that people in cities usually have a lot more allergies
and stuff than people who are raised on farms. And the idea was the people who are raised on farms are exposed to a lot more germs, okay than people in cities perhaps, And I'm not sure that's entirely true. You know, with the number of people in cities, I'm not sure they control accurately for transmissibility from human to human. But the argument goes that we get a lot of illnesses, a lot of bugs from animals and you know, maybe the outdoor environment. So I think this hypothesis is intriguing,
but there's really no evidence to back it up. There's a lot of correlations. At the moment. I would not advise people going out and getting sick on purpose just to build up your immunity. You know, you want to avoid getting sick, you know, because some of these things can be very dangerous, and every time we have to pull out the antibiotics from the medicine cabinet, there's a chance that these bugs can gain resistance to that, and
that's not good for society at large. Need to be very very careful about being laxadaisical about illnesses because the medicines we have in most cases are still great, but they're very precious, and these bugs can evolve resistance to them, and that gets pretty scary, and that makes me want to circle back to some of the bacteria that scientists have in fact found on phones. So and this is
where it gets a little concerning for me. When I read that they can culture a bacteria called staphylococcus off of phones. I was like, that's no big deal. Staphylococcus is a very common bacteria, usually harmless, and it's on everybody's skin. The only time it really becomes a problem is if that staphylococcus gets inside of a cut, and
then you could get a wound infection. But there's a type of Staffolo caucus that you've probably heard of and many of your listeners probably heard of, called MRSA, and MRSA is a type of staphylococcus that is highly resistant to antibiotics and it becomes very difficult to treat. It can lead to a life threatening infection, and a lot of these studies surprisingly cultivated the MRSA version of staphylococcus
off of people's phones. I suspect that might have happened for people who might have gone to the off the doctor's office or the hospital or some kind of medical care facility where there's a lot more MERSA than the general environment. And that leads me to one of the other precautions that people should take is don't use your phone if you don't have to in a doctor's office
or a hospital setting. Those areas have a lot more germs inside because there's a lot more sick people there, So I would be a little extra careful about using or keeping my phone clean if it's been in some
kind of medical facility. Other bacteria they find on the phones are Streptococcus, which causes strep throat, And that's a little bit alarming because a lot of people still hold their phone right up to their face when they talk, when they have a conversation, and if you got streptococcus on that phone, it could easily get too close to your mouth and you can maybe get it back there and get strep throat. And then of course there's the
really unpleasant ones. But some of the most common ones that are found on phone and not surprising, the fecal bacteria, Okay, E Coli Anerococcus. A lot of people have a bad habit of using their phone in the restroom, Craig, I see you're blushing right now.
Who would not people do that? Is that a thing?
Apparently it's very common. But E Coli and Innerococcus, these fecal bacteria are not something you want on your phone because if they do get into your body, that's going to cause you some really unpleasant gastro intestinal illness. Okay, you were talking about gnawedge of vomiting direa, the whole works, so you want to avoid that, another really unpleasant one. We're leaving bacteria and going to viruses. Now. One of
the more common viruses that are found on phones is neurovirus. Now, neurovirus is alarming, and it's usually associated with the cruise ships. You know, when everybody on board catches neurovirus, everyone on board is rushing to the toilet because they got diarrhea. It's a really unpleasant illness and there's really no good treatment. But the good news is it goes away in a couple of days. But like any diarrheal disease, the main
danger is dehydration. If people can't put in liquids quick enough or hold them down, you could get dehydrated to a point where you need to go to the hospital. So it can get dangerous, and it's particularly dangerous for the very young, the very old, people with pre existing conditions, and anyone who's immune compromised. If you fall into any of those groups, you're even more vulnerable than a normal
healthy adult, so you should take extra special care. So neuoravirus is also alarming because it's one of these bugs that is stable for a long period of time. A lot of these germs that we're talking about, they don't survive in the atmosphere very long. Okay, fungal spores can, some bacteria can, but neurovirus can survive for weeks on
the surface of your phone. So there's a high chance if it's on your phone that it could get into your body or into the body of someone else who might use your phone, and then, like I said, you're going to get a really unpleasant gastro intestinal illness. Other viruses on the phone include respiratory ones. They can cause pneumonia or the flu, So you want to, you know, be careful of that, especially at the height of flu season.
Maybe you want to keep your phone a little extra clean during that time too.
Hm. Wow. So one of the takeaways today everyone is you're better off to press your face up against a toilet seat than a phone.
Of the episode right there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's doctor doctor Bill's advice.
He's sign my name to that one, but.
He's not suggesting you do either. But what he has said statistically, kiss your toilet that's what he said. No he didn't. You know. One as we're winding up, one thing I think about Doc and I have maybe I have a little bit of a I don't have a phobia, but maybe I have an issue. I'm always aware when I walk into restaurants, cafes, wherever, hotels, wherever I'm going, how many hands have been on the handle I'm about
to touch, sure, you know. And so if there's a way where I can get in without touching, you know, like I'll just push the If it's something that you just push to open, I'll push up higher or lower than the handle. Or sometimes if I'm wearing a hoodie or whatever, I'll pull my sleeve down. So and I think about that, especially when I wonder if anyone else thinks to this stupid shit. But I think, Okay, so
I've been to a public toilet or restaurroom. You know, it's talk about Yeah, there's just whatever's in there is terrifying. Then you wash your hands and then dry your hands, and then you put your hand on the handle to get out of there, which is full of fucking germs. After I just got the germs off my hands.
Because some people aren't washing like you just did, you know, and yeah, you're right, you have to go through this door to get out. In some places I've been to they actually have a way to open the door with your foot now so you don't need to touch the handle.
And especially during COVID, they turned a lot of doors that used to use a knob or have a handle into just you know, push, so you can use your shoulder or your foot to open the door and avoid touching a handle with your freshly cleaned hands, which you know you raise a good point. That's the last thing you want to do after you wash your hands is touch a restroom door knock.
Yeah, well, that foot operated door opening system that'll get to Australia in about thirty five years, So once that arrives, we'll let you know how that goes.
Yeah h hopefully I'll still be talking to you. You know, we'll see.
But then, any final thoughts or advice doc before we head off, like do we need to one? We don't need to panic, We just need to be aware. But what's just a starting point? Should we clean our phone once a day or what should we do?
I'm going to go through a little list right here to help people calm down. Don't want them to freak out about their phone, because you can follow these simple steps I'm going to tell you right now, and you'll minimize the chances of getting sick from your phone. First and foremost, as we said, take care of it in the restroom. Either put it away, resist the temptation to use it, or if you must, then wash your hands thoroughly and wipe down your phone with that alcohol based wipe.
Like we said earlier, the same is true for other surfaces that you put your phone down on. So some of the ones that people don't think about might be a kitchen countertop where a raw food was being prepared. There's going to be a lot of germs there, so you probably don't want to use your phone in that environment. We've already covered medical offices and hospitals. There's a lot of germs on there and maybe their countertops, so be cautious of it there. Public bus or public transportation, there
could be a lot of germs there. Avoid putting your phone down on like the seat or whatever. If someone else uses your phone, especially a toddler, you know, these young kids are not very hygienic, right, So if a toddler uses your phone or someone else uses it, good idea to disinfect it. And if you make a call, try to use the voice option. Don't hold the phone against your cheek and your ear because if there are germs on it, that could be an easy way for
them to get into your body. A good general rule of thumb, phone, doorknobs, other surfaces. Keep your hands clean, especially before you touch your face, before you put on makeup, before you eat. Always wash or sanitize your hands that way, phone or doorknob, whatever surface you're dealing with, whatever device you're dealing with, If your hands are clean, you increase
your chances of being okay. I would wipe my phone down at least once a day, and I would do it even more often if I suspected that it got put down onto a dirty surface or used by someone who might have been sick. You can't clean it too much. Really. If you use those alcohol based wipes, they're going to be pretty safe, but you don't need to like do
it twelve fifteen times a day. Yeah. The other advantage of cleaning your phone, like you know, at the beginning or end of the day, gets all those fingerprints and smudges off. You know, I'm always a little surprised as to how much better my phone looks and how much easier it is to read once I wipe it down, So it's a one win situation, right.
And how much clearer the photos are when you watch the actual lens of the just quickly. So in Australia anyway, and I'm sure around many parts of the world we've seen in the last you know, since twenty twenty, the proliferation of sanitizes in handbags and pockets and whatever, the little squeezy pump things. That is using a sanitizer as good or is it the same as washing our hands?
I washing your hands thoroughly with soap and water for about fifteen to twenty seconds is the absolute best. You can't always do that. I am a strong advocate for those little handy sanitizers when you're in a pinch and can't get to soap and water. Those things are excellent. They will kill upwards of ninety five, sometimes ninety nine percent of germs, you know. Just make sure it's a good quality product. And I carry one of those around with me all the time.
Oh, I'm shocked, Hi, mate, We appreciate you. We love you being on the show. My listeners love you. We always always pleasure, always get great feedback. Tell people where to go where they can listen to more of you, or see some of your stuff and connect if you would.
Yeah, you can take your dirty and punch in www. Author Bill Sullivan dot com and you can find the articles the interviews that Craig talked about earlier about the cell phone germs. If you want more information, you can follow those links there and read all sorts of other interesting things that I've written over the years.
Well, you can get your grubby little fingers and press your grubby little keyboard and find it on your grubby little computer. You can do that. There you go, I Mike, thank you so much. We'll talk again.
I look forward to it.