#1819 Our Lumpy Friendship - Bobby Cappuccio

honest with yourself, but it really does affect me. I had a meeting with my boss earlier this morning for coffee, which she quickly regretted because I had a large coffee

and it was a got a bit intense. But we were talking about like last year, I was struggling with just a couple of relationships where I was running around and trying to I think, tell myself, I'm here to serve these people, and I was trying not to disappoint them and just make them happy and the goalpost kept moving like Okay, that's fine, but you didn't do that.

And she's like, and you just like chase them around and constantly tried to recalibrate, and it's like you lost yourself a little bit and it took a toll on you and it wasn't positive for them or for you or you know. She's like, the organization was fine. You know, nothing happened, nobody went to HR, nobody quit. But she was like, probably wasn't the best approach. And I was like, oh, I wonder why I do that.

I think, and that when I tell people about my research that some especially often do to like, I don't give a fuck what people think of me. I'm just going to be me and if they don't, I'm like, Okay, well, good luck, good luck being a leader, good luck having a team, and good luck being you know, part of

something bigger than just you. You know. So I think the distinction is for people to understand we're not coming from a place of fear and insecurity and self doubt and anxiety as in no, do they like me, please like me, but rather just that awareness of like, I'm curious that, like, what is it like for our audience listening to you and to me? What is that experience like?

aware and other aware. I'm aware of my own emotiontional state and perspective, and I am also aware of the experiential emotional state of others, and I could regulate my thoughts, emotions, and behaviors based on that assessment or based on the ability to calibrate all of those different things. At wants to kint it's almost the set of empathy. I think you're right. There is the influence that other people's opinion

have of you. Is it so that you can modify and adjust how it is you're engaging in the world, or is it something where you are dependent on external validation, which everybody is to a degree. But if that's what's guiding you, I think it's very different than Okay, if I am a leader, if I am a writer, if IM a speaker, what quintessentially is my purpose? Why do

I do that? And if it is to make a contribution if it is at some level to serve, you have to be sensitive and and intentionally focused on how you're impacting people. Can I can I bring something up from a conversation, a very personal conversation we had over a year ago. Yeah, of course go where you had said, you know, you need to understand the experience of you and that that I mean that that hit me like I did like the ice water challenge a few years

earlier than that. That statement hit me harder than a bucket of ice water. And because I know it, I know it's true, like I know in relation to me, it's true. And it's like, oh did that did that feel good?

gifted and very capable. And so I'm always coming from a good place. And I've always been or periodically been perplexed at, ah, how little recognition you've got from some people now, and I think you should it's just my opinion got more recognition, and you know a few other things that we won't bang on about. But you know, when I say things like that to you, even though it's not what people want to hear, necessarily, it's coming

from a good place. And that is because you know, I want you know, if you don't understand or I don't understand what it is like being around you or around me, then how can we build optimal connection and rapport with others? And you know, like I've spent my life being not very good at things and then working

to be better. Like there's been other than maybe I was going to say, maybe like in naturally, I'm a recently good communicator, but even that, there are so many parts of communication that I wasn't good at, and still I'm not, you know, brilliant at. But I think that is one of the challenges of friendship too, is do I want them to tell me what I want to hear, or do I want them to truly give me feedback

that might not be the most comfortable, you know. And I remember that, and I remember I was conflicted because I felt what did I feel? And I even sent you a message the other day. We won't say the totality of that message, right, I sent you a message and basically went, I think I fucked a few things up, and I'm sorry, and I love you and that's it. And I think that for me, look at us, it's

like fucking doctor Phil here. But I just think that it is important in friendship to go you know, I think I did well with that, or I think I fucked that up, and not like, oh I fucked that up because you did this and then you did that. No, No, I just I got that thing wrong, absolutely one hundred percent me. And I think that being able to work through that stuff while still you know, like My litmus test for friendship is two things. One is is my

life better with this person in it? That's number one of my litmus friendship test. And the answer for that with you to me is yes. And the next one is do you say nice things behind that person's back and do they do the same? I'm like, well, I would think, I don't know about you, I hope so, but definitely me, And then I think, Okay, then this is really worth working on. And we've gotten very deep,

very quick. But I think that's one of the challenges of otherwise we're just gonna We're going to live in this fucking echo chamber of kind of self serving bullshit to an extent.

I think meaning is the key, not happiness, but because of the depth of value that relationships have, I think it's the seat of mental health or a critical component mental health and happiness as well. And you said something about rapport and report is critical to this. It's it's a to me, rapport is a relationship of positive responsiveness where you could be in response to one another and show up for that even when, or probably especially when

it doesn't feel good and it's really hard. You know, I felt you'll hear people go, ah, you know, I was dating this person and I just wasn't right and I moved on, and I moved on, and a lot of times if it's not right, move on. But it's like, sometimes you know, you're too dynamic. I make growing people, and if there's not that room for loving ruthless. Honestly, I hate the word ruthless. I think that was the wrong word to use. But this this kind of honesty

that needs to take place. If you can't get past the ego, because we all have to contend with our ego, it kind of makes it hard to have long term, sustainable, empowering relationships in our life. And I think, you know what, Gratitude wasn't the only emotion. I felt like. There were times when I was like, I'm not gonna say it, on the podcast, but the thoughts in my head, I was quite pissed off and resentful. And then it's like, no, because I know there were times in my life where

I wish somebody would have told me the truth. And it's kind of a contradiction because as a coach, I'm always like, well, I don't tell people, I'll ask. But for me, I wished that they would have told me the truth and they didn't think enough of me to tell me the truth. And like when someone I really care about that I have a strong friendship with tells me something, or when anybody does this, but it holds a lot more weight when there is that this emotional intimacy.

Is that true? Like is that true? Have I heard this before? Or have I suspected I've noticed this pattern with me? So around the same time we had this conversation, I was told a lot of other things about myself from someone else, and I said, when have I ever heard this before? And the answer was, I have never heard this before. Ever, this is the first time I've ever heard this from someone. I'm not taking this on

board what I heard from you. It's like, oh, not only have I heard it from someone, I didn't need to. I know it. It's like god, it all right? What is that impact that I'm having? And how do I move forward and be a little bit more self aware or what are the strategies that I can implement when I feel I'm getting into a point emotionally where self awareness is lacking. I need some preemptive tools otherwise I'm going to perpetuate being this person in situations.

to do well. You know this is a funny thing, right, I don't even know if you know this, but so there's a guy over here called Sam Wood, and Sam used to work for me Bobby's in the States. Everyone in cash and figured that out by now but Sam used to work for me. And Sam's killed it, crushed it. He went on a show called The Bachelor, which you have over there. He was the Bachelor, heaps of airtime. He started a business called twenty eight. He's got a gym. In fact, he's got what was my old gym now

that's called the Woodshed. But he's built this amazing brand and become very, very very successful. And I reckon, I get asked about once a month, so what do you think of? What do you think of?

But yeah, that genuinely being able to celebrate another person's success, even if you're not right now succeeding, because if somebody else is, if your friend's success bothers you, then you're not a friend. That's not friendship.

You give people direction, feedback, input that they might not want to hear, while so simultaneously not wanting to raffle any metaphoric feathers.

operating system. And it's almost like, if you don't want to move forward with people, or if you want people to continue doing a behavior that is damaging to theirselfs and others, tell them why they should stop doing it. Maybe give them some science like some a couple of references, definitely tell them what you would do in that situation,

and you're almost sure to perpetuate it for me. And in that situation, I try to ask questions and first the step because I had a conversation recently like this, and it's like, all right, you know, you don't really have to do anything, like just because I'm your leader or you know, like your quote unquote boss, which I don't I don't feel on anyone's boss, but just because we're in that position within the organization, you don't have

to do what I tell you to do. There are always other options, and you could you could passively resist too, like all right, yeah, got your boss, but I'm going to either comply or defy as soon as you leave this room. But you know, if you were to do something else, let's say a behavior that I would feel constructive for your position, for you, for the team, for the end user. What would be some of your reasons and it might be none, but what would be some

of your reasons why you would do it? You know, what are some of the outcomes that, if it worked out, might be important to you? You know, out of those outcomes, is there one that is quintessentially most significant, and why that you know, like how how how prepared and ready are you at this point to start working on that, Because just because you acknowledge that a change could be made and it might benefit me, it doesn't mean you're ready,

It doesn't mean you're confident, doesn't mean you're important. But when we talk about readiness, like you know, let's say it's like a five out of ten and I'm kind of like on the fence, I don't know, why did you not say a two? Right? Let's talk about the

rationale between a two and a five. Let's talk about that significance if it were to move from a five to six, what might need to happen, and you know, without jumping all in, what might be an initial first step you know, and what do you think happens if you don't do it? So, just like a coaching based conversation, there's a lot in between those. I mean, coaching is not about asking better questions. It's being in response to

what happens after you ask that question. But if you were going to frame it like that, I prefer to have conversations like that for a lot of reasons. One even even where I sit in the hierarchy within the organization. I'm nobody to tell somebody what to do. I'm trying to bring the best out of you and serve you right, kind of like I don't work you know, it's like you don't work for me as much as I work

for you. So that's first and foremost. Second, if someone doesn't have emotional ownership and accountability over the responses, don't expect long term change telling people what to do or what their problem is. Like you said earlier, like, oh, this is like doctor Phil, maybe on an emotional level, but it was doctor Phil, we would be asking each

other two or three questions. I'd figure out exactly what's wrong with you, and I tell you what to do, and that would ninety nine percent of the time do absolutely nothing but reinforce the behavior patterns that we're trying

to alleviate or eliminate. So I try to handle And there's a great book called It's the Manager written by Clifton and Harder to consultants and researchers out of Gallop, and they said that seventy percent of the variance of all performance productivity in any organization is your frontline manager. So it's like, ah, my team sucks. They don't execute that. You know what, The odds are overwhelming that if you're

the manager, it ain't your team mate, it's you. So and one of the recommendations that they give on how to kind of turn this around in an organization, the biggest recommendation is switch from boss to coach because I think you know, this goes back to Douglas McGregor in decades ago in the human side of enterprise, where coming out of the Industrial Revolution, it was kind of like people are lazy, they'll get away with shit if you

let them. You need command, you need control, you need assembly lines and checks and balances, and you know, people are basically tools like a hammer, you know, a screwdriver. And Douglas McGregor and his research, no, people only behave like that when they don't feel that they have the tools, the agency, or the autonomy. When people feel that they're

being controlled, yes they resort to that. But when people understand and internalize the purpose of their work, they feel they have the agency to perform it and the autonomy to pursue it. They seek out responsibility, they seek out growth, they seek out greater work ethic, so that that's a misconception.

I think it's a lot of times the way we deal with people and the assumptions that we have that bleed out onto them, that kind of creates patterns of behavior that reinforce and internalize our own false beliefs about people.

If you want to start lunchtime, cool. Want to bring your dog, no worries. Want to sit on a floor in a bean bag with a laptop, yep. I want to wear bare feet, no worry, as long as you're clean. It's like there are so few rules. I mean, they've got to obviously do their job, but other than that, you know, don't punch anyone in the face, don't eat all the cookies, you know, wipe your.

is this is how it is. And you know, one of the ladies was there and she had her I don't know, like an eighteen month old there where she's like I couldn't get a babysitter today or whatever, so runs like cool, just handing the kid around and you know, I have to it. And I'm like, yeah, imagine that. Imagine imagine creating a space where people really want to be.

It's not like you're going to work because you've got to go to work, and you've got to go to work and drive there and sit in your cubicle and look at your watch and go, oh fuck, it's nearly lunchtime. And then oh it's nearly home time, and then oh god, it's some finish, thank God, Like like genuinely they're either the best actors of all time or that. It's just they've created a culture and a physical space and a kind of a mindset that people love to be in.

And since they've done that, I mean, they kind of started that way, but they expanded more their productivity, efficiency, profit, everything through the roof happiness like culture awesome. I'm like, yeah, we could all maybe depending on the business, of course, but maybe rethink some of the stuff that we've been doing traditionally.

You've got Google in their own internal research on what separates our top performing teams, which is just about everyone. It's a very high pressure environment from the absolute best of the best and it comes down to the same things over and over. One psychological safety, two vulnerability three eight.

An organization driven on purpose. And if you want people to work longer hours and order, don't make demands about you've got to be at your cubicle for this number of hours a day, because they'll clock in and clock out exactly when you tell them to and then they're checked out and they don't really care. People will work longer and harder when they have the freedom to autonomously decide how they engage with work. Now, of course you have meetings or if, like you know, you owned a gym,

I'm a personal trainer. Yeah, you got to be here when your clients are here, so you have a shift. That makes sense. And I have mixed opinions about working remote versus working in the office. I think whenever someone says no, no, you have to be in the office, or no, all work can be done remotely, it's like, I think there's somewhere in the middle. I think we're missing a few variables. This is not this is not

an open conversation. But for the for the most part, the more you try to control people, the more you get exactly what you're managing. It's just cool.

Does it? You know? Like I think with many of these variables and many of these kind of conversations around what is better, well, there is no single answer to that because there are too many variables. It's like, well, you know, like my job, I have not had an employer since I was twenty five years old. Well that was thirty six years ago. I haven't had an actual job. I haven't had holiday pay or sick pay for three and a half decades. I've every for the last three

and a half decades. Every month I'm earning a different amount of money. There's probably no month where I earn exactly the same money. Some months are good, some months a shit some months are terrifying, some months are like amazing, right, But I would not recommend what I do to most people because most people's personality or situation would not be suited to this, or it wouldn't be suited to them, you.

and absolutely have to agree with each other. I think historically when people feel under threat and the world is changing so rapidly, people feel a level of anxiety. Or I know a lot of people I work with in multiple industries are voicing this. You kind of had to know that people in the tribe thought a certain way and behaved a certain way, like if we're going out, we're hunting some giant animal, and if somebody screws up, like someone's gonna get trampled, and none of us are

gonna eat and we're gonna starve. It's like, I need to know that when we say go this way, you're gonna go this way and not go the other way. So it's kind of like, if you're doing shit and saying shit in the tribe, that's just like, way out there. God, you're not predictable, You're a threat. And I think that kind of probably is embedded a little bit in our DNA.

The other side of that is if we don't recognize that we're living, we don't really have the dynamic complexity and diversity of opinions and expertise that we need to innovate and move forward in an organization. And you cannot have these sound bite beliefs. Are carbs good or are they bad? Right? Should I open up my own business? Should I be an entrepreneur because entrepreneur good employee bad? Oh my god. There's a lot of context and probably

biological and psychological individuality. You know. You interviewed Susan Slide, who I've known for decades, and I was on her show and my dog had just died. So I was like, Okay, I'm not going to cancel the show, but I was I was wrecked on that show, and she had said, you know, when you're getting into your own business, what's the most important thing to consider? And you know, I wasn't thinking at all, and I just responded with brutal honesty.

I was like, shit, you know, it's not an inspiring answer, but know what the hell you're getting into and who you're wanting are Because there's some things I've had. I've had a few businesses, and I learned there are some things that I'm really really good at and there are some things where it's almost satirical how bad I am. It's like, if you don't have the right partners with complementary skill sets. I know, for me, like I'm capital

F you know, three letters after that, it's bad. You really got to have that level of self awareness.

pretty much everything. It's like, what used to work for me professionally when I was in my twenties didn't really float my boat in my thirties. You know, there was a time like you, when you were on the gym floor and you were you were working in gyms and inspiring and training and educating and selling and all that stuff that you did. And there was a time there, I'm sure where you fucking loved it and you got a sense of self worth and all the stuff. You same with me. You know the ex fat kid Now

he's training people. Wow, like he's not fat anymore. No. I got self esteem and self worth and recognition and acceptance and love and this is amazing. And then five years later, yeah, this is pretty good. And then five years later, yeah, it's all right. And then eventually it's like, nah, I'm over this and it's not bad. It's just that this doesn't work for me anymore. I need to do other things, other ways. I need to learn new stuff.

I need to talk to different people about different things, and I need to I need to evolve, and I can't. I've been living in this kind of box for a decade or so, and something else has to happened, now, you know.

I think when you do well, you outgrow things because as you deepen your expertise, you see more you have, you could form more distinctions, and those distinctions uncover new motivations and passions and paths, and it's beautiful. It's beautiful to see that when you're working with people or people on your team. I don't know if we see that as much with ourselves, or maybe we do it. I'm just talking shit. What do I know anyway?

probably we wanted to help myself the most. And then I got to a point, which a lot of people do, where I was moderately successful and you're like, well, I'm way more successful than I was in that I'm earning more dough and I'm doing all these good things and I've got a house and I own a couple of things. And you're like, yeah, but I'm not any happier. What is that about? Not necessarily one causes the other. Maybe they're disparate variables, but I think they're intertwined some how

for most people. So for me, it was like the getting phase, and then it was like the who am I becoming? Phase? Not what am I getting? And then it was like the what am I giving? It's like the getting and the becoming and the giving, and they're still all intertwined somewhat. But you know, I'm I'm not even though I make okay money, I'm not driven by money. It doesn't it doesn't excite me. It's not my it

used to be my KPI. It's not anymore. It's like, yeah, I've got to pay the bills and look after mum and dad a bit and you know, put bloody petrol in the car and all those things. But yeah, it's just it's it's things just shift. Like you're like, what is wealth kind of shifts?

correlation and to a certain point, but I think beyond that. Yeah, I mean I was when I was young, I was literally I used to work six days a week in a gym and three or four nights a week in pubs getting punched in the face for twelve dollars an hour making you know, like I worked seventy eighty hours and earned not a lot of money. So I worked very hard for a long time making lot not lots

of dough. So I definitely didn't come from any kind of privilege or upper class, right, I just grinded, and that's and I'm glad I did because it gave me context and awareness.

It's not like, oh, I need to try and be commercially successful or I need to be the Dali Lama, like I can have a for want of a better term, a loving, kind, spiritual component to my existence. But also be a guy who charges that company lots of day to go and talk they can afford it. I'm not bad at it. I've done it a lot. That's my commercial value in that space. This is what I'm charging, that's what you're paying me. Thanks very much, see you

next time. It's all good. But also happy to talk to that person that doesn't have any dough And you know, not every person every time, of course, because there's a number of hours in a day. But you know where there are things that I've done some gigs for for organizations where they literally can't afford to pay a speaker, and I just you know, I volunteer my time and gladly, and some of those have been the best things I've

ever done. Where you're driving two hours, you're talking to seventy people in a tennis club and it's like it's so not glamorous and you get paid zero dollars zero and it's fucking amazing.

of human needs is pretty flawed. I mean it was, you know, done studying a bunch of middle aged white guys in mid twentieth century US, and you know which one of the How those needs are met and how they show up is different culturally. But the idea that you know, if one need is glaring unmet, it kind of doesn't allow space for the other needs to manifest. There's some truth to that. You know. If I'm homeless and I'm starving, I'm not really thinking about my legacy.

I'm not thinking about how I'm gonna connect with an audience and like contribute at my workplace. I don't have a workplace. What I'm thinking about is I need to find food. How am I going to make that happen? So, yes, it's that those kind of things, and it's not just it's not just the money. I think it's poverty on any emotional level. And I don't want to dismiss how crushing poverty is because I think it's something like ninety eight percent of anyone who grows up within a certain

postal cold and within a socioeconomic status stays there. And I doubt, I doubt that ninety eight percent are just unmotivated and fucked up. So I do think resource versus available to matter way more than most people would admit. But what if I also have like an emotional level of deprivation where I don't really have confidence. I've not been out in the world. I have passions, but I don't know what I'm capable of. And then it's like, oh, you know what I do make a difference. I am

making a contribution. Shit, you know this is not about me. You know I could take my focus off of me and put it increasingly on other things and other people that transcend my own immediate needs because I feel secure enough to do that.

have access to food whenever they want. It's probably more than that, but like there are so you know you yeah, I mean I can't talk for everyone listening to this, of course, but I for one, I just I am. I'm so grateful and also like a tiny bit guilty. It's like I was born in Australia, which is point what is it? It's like point zero three percent of

the world's popular some tiny amount. It's like, statistically, to be born in Australia is one in three hundred, That's what it is, one in three hundred to be born in a place where for me, anyway, I had loving parents, I went to good schools. I never I never had to you know, there was no hardship, and I didn't deserve any of that. I didn't deserve any of it.

I was just lucky. I was just lucky to have the parents I had to be born in the place I was, you know, and it's like, yeah, it's that's but like a lot of people do not, and I know, without opening a door, we don't want it. But you didn't have that, you know, you you had some struggles which we'll talk about and have spoken about but another day.

But yeah, it's like a lot of people start, as you said, you know, nine app percent of people who are born in a certain postcode or postal or area code as whatever you zip code as you call it over there whatever. Yeah, and that's that's just where they were born, and that's just their starting point, which is there's no fairness to any of that, got it.

I feel so lucky and grateful that I can make a contribution that hopefully makes people's lives a little bit less painful, more resilient, and more engaging. And I'm very happy that I'm sitting where I'm sitting within the organization. But I don't feel guilty at all. I feel zero guilt that other people can't get water. And you know, I was lucky enough to be born into the United States, because you cannot help anyone who's suffering by suffering with

them at their depth. Like, I think the person who started turning my life around was Mitch Mitchell Pacifico, the owner of Gold gym aj If Mitch didn't have a gym, and like I don't know, he was serving time at the moment and his life was horrible, would have never impacted me, So my life would have been dramatically different. He was in a position to help me, and he was willing. And I think you know it, Emmon's and McCullough,

they've done some great research on gratitude. But I think when it tying it back to what you said about rapport earlier, one of the most powerful mechanisms of gratitude is when you're feeling it, you express it. And what that does for people and how they react to you and what that does for social bonds and ties is beautiful. And I think a lot of it is transcendent. So it's like I've been working on living just for today

because I'm a very anxious person. I'm always thinking about the future and looking back in the past, which can be constructive, but too much of that not at all. And it's like, Okay, what can I do today? I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, but we've got over one hundred thousand people that are depending on us today. What can I do just to contribute and move the needle today? And you know, it's keeping me, it's keeping me kind of focused.