I get a team. It's Harps, it's the U Projects. Sally O'Connell and I go way back. She's a friend of mine from the nineties. She's that old. She's not as old as me because I was a grown up at the time when I first met her. She was in school, she was an athlete, she was a student, she was a triathlete, she was a bunch of things. And I'm going to tell you that we started this very podcast about ten minutes ago and then fuck something up significant, So we went rather than try and edit
out that very messy fuck up. And we're not even going to say who, but one of us may have prematurely announced someone's death. Haha. We were talking about a person who we will not mention, and Sale said I think they died when I didn't know that, and then I checked and they didn't. So here we are version two high sal.
Oh wow, what a start. But it just feels like old times. Craig always a laugh, always able to turn perhaps a you know, a situation into something positive. So yeah, great to be here and reminisce when we first met, when I was a kid training at your first personal training gym.
Yeah, you were a kid, you were like, what were you seventeen years old or something? Yeah? Are you still We're going to jump all over the joint today and people will meet you and know who you are soon enough. But you still look very fit, and you like last time I saw you was And people say shit like this,
but they don't mean it. I actually mean it. You look about as old as last time I saw you, which was maybe twenty years ago, which is very annoying because I currently look like my grandfather, which is fucking annoying. How often do you work out?
Now?
What's your protocol?
It's so funny, like exercise has just been ingrained in me since I was a kid, so it's been always part of my life and I've continued to experiment with different things. But I've always done something runnings probably as you know, It's always been probably my main passion and probably the thing I've been the best at. Even when I did triathlon, I was better at the running than the riding and the swimming. So I definitely still run.
I've done I've done marathons over the years. I've actually just signed up for Sydney Marathon which is at the end of August. But I haven't done one for nine years, so that's a big step up from what I what I've been doing typically, but I've done you know, really, to be honest, Craig, when I left working with you at Harper's and personal training and lifting weights, and if you remember, we did a lot of weight training, and you know, I was pretty I guess back then strong
for a female. I got sicker gyms and lifting weights, so I kind of gave that, left that all behind and did more things like running and pilates and yoga, and I walk a lot. I often I often use exercise for even for meetings where I'll meet people and go for a run or a walk because it's a good double use of time. You sort of kill two birds. So yeah, it's still very fit, still a big part
of my life. It's probably my one non negotiable because it translates really to everything else for me, you know, my mental health, my energy, all those sorts of things. So it's just something I'll continue to do for as long as my body allows me to.
And I think, you know, apart from all that, like your brain works better, you're a better communicator, you get stressed less. I mean, you still get stressed, but you tend to manage emotional and psychological shit better when your body's in better shape. People don't I mean people who listen to me here this all the time. But I think the general public doesn't really understand how strong the
relationship between psychology and physiology and emotion is. And if your body is not in good shape, it's going to affect how you think and how you feel. And if your emotions are not in good shape, it's going to affect how you think, and if physiology and if your mind's not in good shape, same you know, So it's this, it's this kind of three component system and everything affects everything all the time.
Well, I mean, I know you like you've never it's probably been similar for you, non negotiable, and you know your strength training because you know it does actually even your confidence, and you know all those sorts of things like there's you know, our whole lives have been about
health and wellness and fitness. I mean, you've made a living out of, you know, writing your books and podcasts and training people and training trainers to train people, and you know, there's a lot of knowledge that you've passed on to so many of us over the years.
So yeah, it's a big part.
It's my non negotiable and I'll sacrifice sleep for it, you know, I'll sacrifice family time for it. I mean that to sound wrong, but for me, I know I'm better with my family if I get that time in my day to exercise. And I'm not obsessive perhaps like I have been in periods when you knew me, Like,
I'm not no means obsessive. You know, my diet's clean, but I don't obsess a lot less about that than perhaps I have in my younger years, where I was a lot, probably a lot more obsessive about what I put into my body.
I don't worry about that now.
That said, I'm very in tune and I still like to keep up to date with you know, what's going on, and as you would know, you know, there's a lot of I guess now discussion around your gut health and you know, the intermitt fasting and not just the impact that has on your physical body, but also your longevity.
And now we you know, longevity is now something that I guess I'm more concerned about how do I continue to be health, to be well, and to continue to have it, you know, a really active life, because you know you do. You start to see people that you love around you that haven't looked after themselves, that you know that then experience ill health. And as you know, if we haven't got our health, then everything else becomes, you know, extremely different.
Yeah, it puts I mean, health is the big perspective giver. You kind of realize when you get sick or when someone that you love gets sick. And we all know this it's a bit cliche, but like, if you haven't got your health, you haven't got much right And yeah, I've yeah, I've had a bunch of people around me die over the last few years, people that I love.
I've had people that I care about get sick. One of my friends who I still see three times a week, he had a horrendous accident and he they said he'd die. And then they said, well, if he doesn't die, which he will, but if he doesn't, he'll be a quadriplegic. And you know, I have no cognitive function. And anyway, he pulled through and I started training him five months
after his accident in a wheelchair. And my listeners know this story about John, but every time I see him, and now he can walk with sticks and he can talk, and his brain's not bad. You know, he's got a traumatic brain injury and a spinal cord injury. But he's a fucking weapon, you know. And you just when I look at him, and I spend time with him, and I don't know when I'm somewhat captivated with him, because he just he has shit going on that I don't.
I don't think I could cope with. I don't think I'm as good as him. I don't think I'm as resilient as him. I'd like to think I am, but I think I'm full of shit. I think if I had had happened what he did, I might have fallen apart right. And I look at him and I think, when I spend time with people who've got real adversity, sell not bullshit adversity, which is I'm not talking about
anyone particular. But you know, sometimes I get caught up in my own problems and then I meet someone with a real problem, and then my higher self goes shut the fuck up, like you don't have any problems like you have you have, you have one out of ten minor issues, and you act like you've got a nine and a half out of ten problems.
So I think people like give you perspective. And like I was thinking, like, as you're telling that, but how did.
That make you feel?
Where you were part of his recovery and actually not believing what they told him his life and future was going to be, and say, well, you know, to use your language.
You know if that I'm not going to do that, I'm going to actually buck what you're saying and do this. And I think absolutely gives you perspective. And I'm the same.
I mean, I have probably a low tolerance for people that you know, probably complain about things that are first world problems and you know, the light because I think I've seen too much people that there's so much tragedy in people's lives and you wonder how they get on.
And that does give you perspective.
And I'm lucky you knows as tough as parts of my life have been since you and I knew each other, well, you know, it's all part of your learnings and it's what makes you stronger and you get the perspective.
But yeah, it's it's.
Definitely again part of what I guess since you know you learn along the way, and your biggest learning is usually come from your hardest challengers. But yeah, definitely feel fortunate that I really haven't had a lot of that very tough tragedy in my personal life.
I've seen it around him like you have.
Yeah, I mean for me working with him and people like him. This sounds a going cliche, but I don't care. It's like it's a gift, Like he's given me more than I've given him, Like I've given him some knowledge and some time and some love. But he's just like he makes me see things differently, Like he never has I mean never, not one day a year does he have a pain free day. So he's in constant chronic pain. So it's not a matter of if he's in pain,
it's just what number out of ten? And so when he says I'm an eight out of ten pain, that for me would probably be a twenty out of ten. Right. But when he comes to the gym and he walks in with his sticks and it takes him, you know, two minutes to walk twenty feet, and you know I have to lift him up and down off benches, or at least the very least help him hold him, but his he never complains when I go, you know, what's
what's the pain level? And He'll give me a number and I'm like, okay, all right, well do you want to still train? He goes, I'm here, and I go all right, fucking hell, you know, all right? And yeah, he teaches me more than I teach him, especially when it comes to just you know, shutting the fuck up
and don't overthink things. And it's like, very much. I just had a conversation with doctor Jody Richardson, who's a psychologist, and we're talking about or who specializes PhD, who specialize things in anxiety, but we're talking about literally, well what's in your control and what's not? You know, So what's he can't wake up tomorrow without a spinal call injury or a traumatic brain injury. He can't. So every day he goes, well, this is what I have. I've got
a spinal cord injury. I've got a brain injury. He's got a bag, he's got a catheter. He can't we he can't pooh. Normally, he's like his life. I'm sorry if this upsets anyone, but this is the reality of his life. His life is fucking hard, but he never once says, jeez, my life's hard. And for me, I love being around that because you know, I'm spoiled. I'm an only child. I grew up in relative privilege, like I'm a big fucking baby. I need to be around that,
you know. So for me, that stuff is a gift. Hey, I'm going to hit the pause button then tell you something just because I looked it up while you were talking about running marathons. Did you know that bloke broke broke the world half marathon record? Are you? Gan? And dude whose name escapes me and I'm looking at it's not written here, but anyway, listen to this. He ran a half marathon. Now, remember everyone, this is twenty one point one case, have a guess at his time, So have a guess.
Okay, marathon. He broke the record. So I'm going to say it sounds outrageous, but like under an hour or something. Stupid.
Yep, fifty six forty two.
Oh my god, I can't drive my car that fast.
Crank fifty six. Now, for people who don't and that's of course, that's that's normal. But for people who don't understand what that means, that is fucking ridiculous, Like he broke the pre Now, normally a record like that, generally it's not going to be beaten, hardly of it. But I mean the previous world record was fifty seven thirty. This dude beat the world record by forty eight seconds, which is.
That's like a five hundred meters Like no, it's.
Like, well, at that pace, it's probably three four hundred. It's at least three hundred metres. But anyway, yeah, crazy. So now, now what we didn't touch on because we did in the first podcast that we fucked up, is that is it you? So you started training with me when you were a kid, and then when you were still relatively a kid, you were you started working as a trainer at my place at Harper's when personal training was just becoming a thing. What do you what do you remember about that?
Well, you were you were the trailblazer around saying I've seen this personal training, you know, not having gym memberships, but I'm going to go and have a private studio. There's no such thing as a membership. You can't just come in and use the equipment. It's actually one on one appointments. And yeah, you you you kind of created it here as far as we knew, I mean, a real trail blazer. And again, I guess I was very attracted to, you know, what you were trying to do.
So I think you know, you saw some maybe a bit of ambition in me wanting to be good at triathlon and sort of said I'll help train you. And I think in a way, you know, you did that out of probably more just being generous than me even paying you are curring any comfort. But it was very aspirational at the time as well. So you know, I think the people that used to come it was it was almost like, you know, only the really wealthy sort of families we knew could come along and have a trainer.
And yeah, you created this really awesome culture where there was a flow of trainers. We're all trainers, we're all friends. You know, we had one on one appointments with our clients. There's a lot of interaction between the trainers and the clients and each other's clients that there.
Was a whole community around it.
And it was a really like I look back on that part of my life and it was foundational to so many other things. When I reflect, many friendships there was a marriage for me in there as you know, you know, there was a.
Lot of stuff over those years.
But yeah, like for me, you were very influential, probably as one of my first bosses.
Really, it's funny I think now, sal about the shit that went on that we couldn't even mention.
Right, No, you remember that shit that went on? Oh there was so social media then, Craig.
I mean I wouldn't have had a career. I mean, there was so much inappropriate shit that went on, and might I say, quite often by the clients, not by me. I don't know if you remember. I don't know if you remember what happened at my thirtieth birthday one of the clients organized Oh fuck it, I'm just going to say it. I didn't organize this. One of my clients organized Miss Nude Australia to come in to the gym, right, And I firstly you might think, I'm like, I one
hundred percent did not want that. And the lady, it was a lady who organized it. Could you imagine that? Now this was nineteen ninety was it, no, nineteen ninety three, Well, well yeah.
It would have been ninety two ninety three.
That was then well ninety three. I was born in sixty three, so it was ninety three, right, Yeah, I'm like, all I could think about was, fuck, this is it. This is the end of my business. This is the end of my career, like imagine hr and I'm I'm I hated every second of it. But what was funny was it was primarily I thin fact, it was like nine point thirty in the morning. I think it was
pretty much all ladies in the gym. I'm sure the response would be different now, but they thought it was fucking hilarious.
Oh we did.
And like what you said, it's just society's move too, because the things we used to say across the floor, Yes, but we all came from a good place. No one meanted any harm on anyone. It was funny and at the time, it was okay at the time, and you know, fortunately we've grown up and we're aware that society's expectations have moved and some of those things we said we can no longer say.
But we're all still friends. Like you know, there was no harm, no one was harmed.
It's good speak yourself. I have and grown up all right, So we'll jump around a little bit. But you recently got a new gig, which congratulations. You are the CEO of Abercrombie's. What is Abercrombie's.
So Abercrombie's is a real estate firm based in Melbourne. So we've got one office in Amada in Melbourne and about thirty five staff and we pretty much sell luxury, prestigious residential real estate. So it's a twenty year old business founded by a three people that sort of left I guess competing firms at the time, and they've built this wonderful business and I've got to know, I guess
the directors aboard. I've been in the industry now for sort of I guess, you know, coming onto fifteen odd years in different roles, and I've cut my teeth on some pretty challenging roles to get myself here.
But yeah, it's a really good for me.
You know.
I've worked hard to allow myself the opportunities of something like this, and I'm.
Here to help you help grow the business.
I guess, you know, real estate, like all the industries,
are being disrupted by many things all the time. So I'm going to take all my learnings from my banking days and selling real estate myself, and I've been in sort of different sides of the real estate industry and different roles, you know, for some very good companies where I've learned a lot and try and sort of take a lot of those learnings, and you know, right back to the learnings of you know, how to keep myself fit and healthy and mentally strong because it all applies.
But yeah, acted me mostly creative the people, and I reflect on my career, you know, over the years since I was a personal trainer, you know, I made a transition into finance, banking and finance and you know, in the corporate world for many many years, and and then you know, was able to transition that into the real estate industry and roles within real estate industry, both on the.
Corporate side but also in the in the I guess the.
Business side, and you know, I guess for me, so much of what I apply every day, you know, comes back to looking after the people and myself, because I think that's how you get the best out of people.
It's to me. It seems I've actually done a lot of gigs in real estate, but not not with you obviously, but.
Different we might have to book one in Graig well, what.
I mean is often at conferences. But I've done I've done individual ones. In fact, I did a year. I won't say who, but I did a whole year with real estate group, and every month I would turn up and I would do So I've done lots of work with real estate. But for me, I think I think lots of industries Now, don't yell at meself, just let
me get it out. I think lots of industries have can have a bit of a brand problem or a little bit of I think people don't necessarily trust people who sell shit right, And so I think the challenge is how do we sell shit with integrity? And how do we be authentic and honest and real. And of course we've still got to make profit. We've still got to we've got to meet, you know, the the client's
needs all round. But yeah, I think it's a tough industry because even me, if I'm going to go buy something, I'm wary. I don't like, I don't I trust pretty slowly, and I assume that ninety percent of what's coming out of old mate's mouth is probably bullshit or a version
of bullshit. And so how do you how do you how do you bring that together where you sell shit and everyone knows you've got to make profit, which is cool, but you're not seen as the seen as the sleazy, scammy, slimy, fucking sales at all cost person.
Yeah, look, it's it's a it is a huge dilemma in the industry and unfortunately it does have a bad name, and for good reason, because you know, there is people within the industry that have you know, potentially treated people.
To the point that they do feel like it's a bit sleezy.
And you know, it's very much transactional, and so it is a challenge and even for me personally. When I left you a corporate you know, well establed, like well regarded like McCrory bank, you know, great brand, aspirational, well respected by most people. In fact, you just sort of had to say you work at McCrory and people think you're smart, like it was a really good good name to have on your CV.
Help, I work at Macquarie. Thanks for that.
Real estate is quite the opposite, and there's there is a real stigma. So you know, you often have this almost personal sort of you know, in a dialogue of dilemma of going well you know, I don't want people seeing me as like another dodgy kind of real estate agent, and that's you know, sort of reflecting probably more on me. But to answer your question, yeah, the industry does have not the best reputation. I think if you looked at people on the trust spectrum, you know, we're probably at
the very bottom. If not, you know, it's from car sales people like, we're kind of down.
There, so it's not great.
But to answer your question, what attracted me to this business and the people is I do see them as the quality ones with integrity.
You know, I really am.
For all my learnings of all the jobs I've had and the people I've worked with and the like. It's the people that you were with that really determine whether you are going to be successful there or not, and whether you are going to have I guess, a successful relationship working with them, because if you are, you know, surrounded by dodgy agents who are dickheads, then you know, again no one's going to like that wouldn't serve me.
So our brand does stand for you know, I guess in the market, not through anything other than the word of mouth and the reputation of repeat and referral business because if you do do the right thing, you are seen as oh wow, that's refreshing.
There's an agent that actually.
Has has told me, you know, told me with transparency what's going on, and has treated me well and has understood my position and the stress of you know, selling, you know, selling real estate stressful.
The industry can look very glamorous and you know, there's a very.
Thin veneer though, between a real estate agent their flashy car and their watch and actually the job itself, which can be quite challenging and difficult.
And I think you'd be interested in this.
Like you know, even I'm on the board of Rise Initiative, which is designed around supporting the mental wellness of the industry because the industry actually over indexes on anxiety and mental health issues because of the way society sees them, because of rejection, because of the way they're paid. Because you can actually put in hours and hours and years of work and still not even earn minimum wage. So there's a lot of challenge that comes with it. It's
a low barrier to entry. So again the quality of the people that enter the industry, you know, they're not as well educated.
Often they haven't been to.
They haven't finished school, or they haven't had tertiary education, or they haven't really worked inside any other environment. So you know, there's a bit of a lower barrier instry, so the quality can then be obviously compared to people that have continued to have professional development through their working lives. So many many factors, but one I'm very passionate about. And I think there is good people within the industry, and you know, you will rise.
To the top if you do the right thing, and you'll have a long career.
And you know, again it's a relationship business at the end of the day, so selling, you know, becomes I guess secondary to building great relationships with people that do actually trust what You've got to.
Say, Yeah, I bought a car years ago. Do you remember Rick Wallaney?
Yeah?
Yeah, No, sadly Rick passed away, God bless, But I used to buy cars off Rick. Rick owned a bunch of car dealerships, and then I started dealing with another guy called Ben and I bought anyway, I ended up buying I reckon over the years, which this is an indictment on me, but I've probably bought ten cars off Ben right, And the reason I buy cars off. Ben is not because he sells the cars that I want necessarily,
but because he is honest. Now I've told this probably once or twice, so apologies, but not the last time. But I don't know. Maybe fifteen years ago I bought from him, and I bought my mum three cars for him. I bought my dad a calf through him, Mum through him. I bought a Toyota Prato, right, just a bloody regular Toyota, right. And I rang him up and I went, you know, this is what I want. And he goes, what color?
What do you want on it? And I gave him all the shit and he goes, what's the best price you've got because he knows all right, ring around and anyway, he goes, all right, I ring you back in a minute, and he rings me back five minutes later and he goes, yeah, I can do it for X, which was about five thousand dollars cheaper than the absolute best. Right. Then he goes, when do you want it? And I go when can
I have it? Now? He was in Werribee and I said, well, I can't get out there in the next few days because I'm up to my eyeballs with one thousand things. He goes, oh, I'll put it on a truck. I'll get it to you. Is that all right? So I go sure, So he sends me the truck, sends me the prato on a truck. The next day, the guy comes in, gives me the paperwork, gives me the keys, and goes. And then the person who then ran my life. I think it was Kim, who was my then PA
person business manager. She paid all the bills and did all that shit anyway, like bibbity Bobby Boo, got my new car done. And then about two months later I said to I think it was Kim. I can't even remember why, but I just went maybe I looked at the bank balance and there was more money than I thought, right. I said, we paid for the prato, right, and she's like no. I'm like, so I had this car for two months that I didn't pay for and I owned
it right, but I hadn't paid the bill. And I rang him and I went, here you go, and he's like and he goes, how the prato. I go, the prato is amazing. He goes, well, why are you bring men? Do you want something else? I go no, He goes, what's wrong. I go, I haven't paid you for the prato. He's like, oh, so pay I'm like, okay, all right. He goes anything else nah see yah. Like that's what I love.
Like complete, standout, complete, And I know that.
Of course, people have got to make money. I know you're making money on me. I don't resent that, of course, but there's just a way. It's like when I go and do a corporate gig. I'm not doing it for free, like a costs a lot. But what I want to do is I want to underpromise and over deliver. I want to if you pay X, I want to give you five X value. So you go, yeah, we paid a fair bit for Craig, but fucking hell he was amazing. Let's get him back.
Correct.
That's what I want to do. I mean. And whether or not you're selling cars, houses, corporate speaking, fucking widgets, you know, pizzas, whatever you're selling, I think that even if it's an expensive product, people can still see it as great value if the service around it is phenomenal.
Couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.
And to actually build that reputation where you know, within the industry, where there is a sea of average and ordinary and bad experiences. The sad part is, Craig, it's actually not that hard to stand out and do the right thing and get referrals and get people talking about you like, you know, like you saw.
You know.
I guess the you know a lot of the media of me coming here. What that's done for me, you know, because the relationships that I've built LinkedIn is an amazing thing. But the rightships I've built over the thirty years of working in different you know, with in different companies, in different industries and all those things.
And I've never really burned a bridge.
I've always been done the right thing by the company, you know, by the people, because that's just something that's the way I am. But that comes back to you because people then go, oh my god, Sally, she's great.
You've got to talk to her about selling your house, you know, that type of thing, and that's the sort of business that you want to create, so that everything you said, it's less selling, it's actually just building great relationships with people, doing the right thing, having good integrity. And then look, you can't control what's going on in the market. You can't control what's happening with interest rates like that is out of an agent's control.
You know, we can't the forces of the.
Market and people feeling like they didn't get what their house was worth, or you know, buyers feeling like they had to overpay and the agent you know, told assists and it was this.
And all those things. Like a lot of that's out of our control.
But unfortunately a lot of people like to sort of blame the agent for when things don't go according to what they thought should happen.
So again, it's really.
Important that you just maintain that, you know, those relationships so that that part doesn't actually become an issue because you've been very transparent through the process. So it's yeah, it's look, it's a it's a it's an industry that has a lot of characters in it.
It's a lot of fun. It's not unlike personal training. There's a lot of fun. There's a lot of banter. We work really hard, the team works really hard. It is it is seven days a week. People expect to have your phone on all the time.
It does compromise a lot of agents that have families and their time.
They don't see the kids.
Sport on Saturdays, there's a lot of sacrifice that comes with it. And the truth is that there's only a small percentage that do really, really well. When you see it in the you know, the perception of looking outside of looking in. Like I said, that sort of veneer of the flashiness and you know, the exraorberant commissions that you can earn if you sell a really high value house.
It's a very small percentage of the industry. The majority of the industry are really hard working people, you know, making you know, fairly sort of average average income.
If I'm a superstar cell not necessarily at Abercrombie's, So let's just generalize.
I'm at employee Craig. Well, I think you've got good integrity'd be good for us.
I'll keep that in mind. If I've got if I'm a superstar and i sell a ten million dollar house, what's my commission give or take?
Probably roughly one percent at that price range, So.
One hundred grand yep, buckety fuck. Hey everybody, this is my last episode of the New Project. It's been great, all the best over and out. You'll find me at Abercrombie's from Monday.
And that's what that's what a lot of people see and they're like, how how hard can that be?
I can do that.
It takes years often to get the ten million dollar listing, or you can get really lucky and you could get that in your first few years. But you know, most agents have committed to it for teen, twenty thirty years and it's a long game, and it is it can be very lucrative, but there's also a lot of agents that don't make a craig and there's a lot that there's a lot of turnover in the industry because they actually probably can't even make you know, ends meet to
make a living. So you've got the boat, you've actually got the extremes, which isn't.
Great, but the same mean anything like we think about it. You know, this is a very different level. But I remember fifteen years ago I had one particular client, or Ion mentioned their name. Great client, not mentioning the name for any whereasons probably just not appropriate, but do I say, yeah, fuck it. So this client, oh fifteen or nearly twenty years ago, was paying two hundred and fifty bucks a
workout and when everybody else was paying fifty dollars. And it wasn't because it was because I didn't really want to train people. Like I was at the point where I'd done a million, and I'm like, I'm not training people. I'm doing corporate. I'd gone back to university, I was lecturing at university. I've done stuff. I was, you know, writing books, i was writing for the heralds all this shit.
So I just made my hourly rate ridiculous really, not so that I would get paid that, I mean, it was ridiculous back then, but so that people would go and train with my trainers for fifty or sixty dollars rather than me. I'd go, look, you can do the same workout in the same gym with someone who's really fucking good. And some of them would still say no, I want you imber.
Some of them yeah.
And I'm like, this is this is putting aside my ego. But this is just really interesting from a psychological perspective and a perceived value perspective. Like the psychologist.
Before, it's the perceived value, right, it's the scarcity. It's also the scarcity, and if people see the value, they're prepared to pay that's ultimately like, again, you can't you can't buy twenty years of experience and research and knowledge and trial and error, and because you were trailblazer, right, you actually introduce things to people's health and fitness that no one else had done and it changed their lives.
So two point fifty was probably cheap.
Well, I always say to people, I don't know about that, But I say to people, you know, like every now and then someone will reach out. I think a lot of people don't really obviously understand how much corporate speaking with good corporate speakers, someone who is a real deal, lots of experience, lots of knowledge, lots of skill, they do a great job. They get good outcomes like how
much that is per hour? Right? And then every now and then, you know, so if like Abercrombie's ring me up and go we want you to talk at our app YEP, and I go at cost this, You're you're not going to fall up your chair. You're going to go Yeah, that kind of is about what we thought, right, But other people are like, are you fucking kidding me?
Because they don't really understand, right. And obviously, if it wasn't worth that, people wouldn't pay that, or if people didn't feel it was worth it, people wouldn't pay it. But I always say you're not paying for an hour. You're paying for like forty years of forty years of knowledge, forty years of experience, You've read forty years of like, Yeah, that's what you're getting. You're getting forty years of me and all the shit that I've learned that I know,
and my skill and my stories and my experience. That's what you're paying for. It's not it's a bit I understand.
Both players get paid so much price money because they've dedicated their whole lives to get to the top.
Yeah, I want to talk quickly about or slowly. So one of the things that I'm fascinated with, and one of the things that I actually talk about corporately a lot is relationships and communication and teamwork and culture. And it's interesting because, like you said, back in the day when you worked at Harper's, we had We certainly didn't do everything right. We certainly looking back, but you can't say that for the most part, for most of the time,
it wasn't a great culture. That was maybe the standout feature. It was a great culture. It was fun, everyone wanted, Clients love being there, trainers love being there. It was an environment that we seem to thrive in. And so when I go into an environment that's toxic to me, it's like, oh my god, I only have to get four feet in the door, and I go, fuck, there's
something about this joint that's not right. And then trying to help the management slash leadership whoever that is, to get their head around what a culture is and how to build it, because it's not like you can just get three people to come in and build something in the corner and now we've got one. Because it's such a multi dimensional thing, and it's about the boss or bosses. It's about the employees, it's about the rules and REGs,
it's about the environment. It's about so many things. And if I said to you, do you want a good culture? I'm sure you have one already, but do you want to have a great culture? Are you going to go yes? What can you do as the boss? Two? I guess improve the culture, understand when things aren't working, and like with that, putting aside the sale stuff and the bottom line and the profitability and all that just for one moment,
focusing on the human stuff, the people stuff. How do you navigate that or how do you consciously this is the longest fucking question of all time, you know what I mean? Like the page, how do you do the people stuff without getting nooses out of joint?
Well, I think it is a people thing, and I think about from my experience of environments where it's been a great culture harpers versus a toxic culture.
Which ultimately ended up in me leaving.
So you kind of know, Okay, there's elements of culture that I know I thrived in and I know brought out the best in me and brought out the discussiony effort and maybe want to turn up and do the extra because it is about trying to bring out the best in people as a leader. So what were things that I really enjoyed in my experiences and what can
I bring from that to the team. And obviously there's new generations coming through and what I wanted could be different to what they want now, So being aware of that number one, But also there is some there is some quick wins in there too, Craig, And yes, I am I was attracted to the role, but I was more attracted to the people and what I knew from
an outside looking in. And obviously you don't know until you walk in and you can go for a job interview and think it's amazing, and you can walk in there and within a couple of weeks going what the hell have I done? And because of the cult, because of the culture, or because of a toxic leader, or
whatever it might be. But I guess to me, it's just understanding, because it's quite a small team still, it's for me probably understanding where each of them are at in their own personal careers, but also importantly where they want to go, and then trying to create an environment that gives them a path of being able to get to where they want to grow, and you know, creating
an energy around that. And I think one thing that has been feedback to me in the sort of the first few weeks here is they just love the energy that I bring in each day. And that's usually because I've done my exercise, I've done what I need to do. I come in, I'm ready to go, and you know, energy. I think it is a bit of an energy game.
And if you sort of come with high energy, then that will help lift other people even if they walked in and had a bad morning, how to fight with their partner and the crash their car, which I did this week. You know, you're like, I didn't even want to talk about that, so I won't talk about that.
But so, yeah, it's a long question.
It's a long answer, and there's not a simple answer,
but it is to me probably the primary focus. So for me to get a high performance team and for us to actually do well and to have a profitable business and successful business, my focus is on the people because I feel like if I can get the people and the culture right, and I can get them not just surviving, but thriving and wanting to come to work and wanting to do that extra and you know what, on Saturday and you finish your opens and your auctions at midday and you can go out with all your
friends who don't work Saturdays, or I can go back to the office and I can actually make another few calls and I.
Can actually do that extra bit. How do I get them to do that?
Because that's going to get a little closer to where they want to go, And they've told me where they want to go, and I will hold, like I guess, hold them to account to say, well, you told me you want to get there, but you're not doing the activities that are going to get you there, So let's reevaluate what that looks like.
So what do we need to do? The other part is just imparting.
You know. What I know keeps me mentally sharp and energetic is the exercise piece. So we've all signed up for the Coast Track twenty twenty five. It's thirty k's. It's not like it's easy. It's cross country. I took a training session. You'd be proud of me. I took a training session. I'm like, I don't need to pay a personal trainer.
Two fifty an hour. I've got this. I know how to do it.
I take a training session with them, so I'm trying to prepare them for that.
But it also is team building.
We're walking, we're doing stairs, we're doing all the stuff that we used to do. It hasn't changed that much to get people fit for a long you know, an enduranceer, then get them.
And you know this better than anyone.
When you walk and you talk to someone and you're looking forward, you tell them a lot more about yourself than when you're looking at them across the table. And so we're team building and we're bonding, and that will help them because when we're going through this thirty ks. There'll be some laggers that will have to drag and help and team and support. And what was surprising, well not, what was really nice to see is that when I put it out there to say, who.
Wants to do this?
You know, I reckon. I've got eighty five percent of the team that have signed up to do it. That to me says a lot. They want to be part of it, they want to get involved. I can tell you in my previous environments, I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have got one I could, I couldn't get that connection. And again, so that for me is if you've got a great number one recruitment, making sure there is a no dickhead policy like preserve it if you've got a great culture.
And in real estate, this is a really tricky one. Pray.
As you articulated before, in real estate, there is some really high performing agents out there that make bucket loads of money.
As characters.
You wouldn't be their friend, right, They win at all cost, leave a path of destruction.
They are often narcissistic in.
Their personality traits, but hey, they're put up on a pedestal because they actually make thirty percent of the income for the company and they've got the boards up everywhere, so.
They're helping the brand. And a lot of a lot of the past is that.
The business owners and the leaders will turn a blind eye to that behavior because hey, they make the money. But from a culture point of view, it's toxic because everyone else is in their shadow, they're in their wake, they're in the path of destruction. They don't get a chance, they never get to step up because they've got to send the you know, the rock star agent that that type of thing, and that can be quite a challenging environment for young people wanting to come in and have
a path. So it's a balance between nurturing, you know, nurturing people to allow them to thrive. And I'm a big believer like in this industry, it's cutthroat, it's competitive. There's a lot of really good operators out of there. Out there, there's a lot of great brands. You actually have to be at the top of the game to survive.
You can't just kind of be average. So we want to employ people, I guess first and foremost that have the hunger and if they got the hunger and the attitude and they're not a dickhead, and they contribute to the culture great and will nurture them and help them and then retain them, right, because that's part of it.
You've got to retain people. And I always think.
If someone walks out the door, it's probably because I got that role, because you know, if you're doing the right thing and they want to be there, they probably shouldn't be looking for another job. But if they're walking out the door, you know, you'll always kind of there'll be other reasons.
But most of people leave people rather than jobs.
Yeah, yeah, I love that people leave people rather than jobs. Listen to that, everyone, People leave people rather than jobs. I love that. I mean that whole. Firstly, thank you for the title of the show. The title of today's episode everyone, as you'll know by now because you will have read it, is no dickhead policy, Sally O'Donnell. You can thank for that. I love that. Have you read a book you probably you definitely would have hurt well
maybe it. And to my listeners who've probably heard me talk about this ten times in eighteen hundred episodes, that's only once every one hundred and eighty episodes, So give me a Break the Five Love Languages. Have you heard
of that book? I love that book. I love that book because it really it just talks about how different people respond to And it's not like everyone thinks or not everyone, but people think when you first hear it, Oh, it's about romance and intimacy, and well it can be, but it's really about how other people feel seen and
valued and loved and appreciated and heard and important. And when you realize that your love language is not the persons that you're talking to, it's a completely different approach that you have. You know, it's like my mum and dad have two different love languages. I have a different love language to both of them. You know, so understanding, if you understand what is someone else's love language, you increase your chances of building rapport and connection and trust and respect exponentially.
Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, because I probably wouldn't have thought of it. Yes, I know that book and some of my girlfriends swear by it. But interestingly, before I got here, you know the CEO that I'm replacing, who you know, he's been wonderful for the business, Like you know again, he's more working towards the end of his working life, so he's not leaving because of people.
They actually do for every new staff member, they actually send them like a psychometric kind of test, like a questionnaire. And it's not like there's obviously you know them all
with your study. There's a million out there around the different personality types and those things, but this is it's one that's actually I think it came out of pick Paul Rue's business Performance by Design and so he's i guess, adapted some of his coaching tools to the corporate world and he's done some work with Abercrombie's in the past, and they do this you know sort of test, and then out of that there's four personality types, you know,
their colors like blue, red, yellow, and green, and it's probably not hard to work out the red personality types versus the yellow, the blue, the analytical that type of thing, and then they associate an animal to it. So there's a blue owl, there's a red eagle, a yellow peacock, and a green dove. So interestingly, what that does is everyone I've got it on my wall here, everyone in the team has been allocated their strengths because let's you know, they're.
High red, low yellow or whatever it be.
And then you've kind of then got the tools to say, well, I know that, like my marketing manager, for example, is high red, So the way I communicate with her is going to be different to.
You know, one of the.
Eas who's the most delightful, gentle, beautiful soul. But the way I communicate with her is very different to how I am very direct with the marketing because that's how she likes to be communicated with. So you know, like there is again there's you can you can actually if you're in these roles, it's our responsibility to actually not just be you know, one size fits all and the old style of leadership. I mean you know that whole sort of command control hierarchy.
I mean you could probably.
So it's so interesting. So what you're talking about, right, all the different personality profile is great, but in they're all based in obviously research, which is awesome. So there's two things that in psychology. One is called metacognition. Have you heard that term?
Yep?
Yep. So metacognition is just thinking about thinking, thinking about how people think and why they think the way they think,
and why you think the way that you do. And the next one up from that, which is kind of a bit more specific, is called theory of mind, which is understanding how other people think, right, and it kind of spills into how other people feel, and so that what you're just talking about now without using the term, but is essentially theory of mine, which is trying to understand how someone else thinks and feels and what their
reality is and what their version. Like you and me are in the same conversation, but we're not in the same experience because I'm not you and you're not me, and you don't have my mind, that I don't have
your mind or emotions. But nonetheless we can go. My experience is very real, Your experience is very real, but they're different, right, And so my challenge as a you know, as a host, as a communicator, as a teacher, all the shit that I do, it's not to agree with everyone, but it's as much as I can to at least have insight into And because I know you quite well compared to mo Get most guests, like I can make a few assumptions, right, but they're pretty educated assumptions, you know,
and that, yeah, it's really very smart what you've done because you're just basically learning how your people work, and you're operating from the paradigm or in paradigm, that is, we don't all think like Sally. We're not like Sally. Not better or worse, but we're not fucking Sally. And if I think everyone thinks and is and feels and responds and is motivated by what Sally is, where fucked.
And I've learned that Greig the hard way, right, like in the sense of you know, you learn this through experience and where you think you can just everyone thinks like me. You know you do know me quite well. My personality type. You know it can be quite direct, and you know I'm probably at times a bit punchy and a bit combative, and you know that hasn't been
knocked out of me. But I've learned to have more awareness of the people around me and the impact I would have on them if I take that style to everybody that I come across, So I am more conscious of actually understanding where they come from. You know, what sort of style probably reflects and you know them for me ultimately for me to influence, right, because that's I guess for me as a leader, I am trying to influence positive change and growth and development and all those
things you talk about. Because the end the day, I am responsible for the business, and if we're not making money, none of us will have a job. So you've got to balance it, you know, between the I guess, being the responsible person for making sure we keep the lights on versus creating environment that people really want to come and have a great experience at work.
I'm such a you know, I've got a daughter.
I wanted to be in an environment where people see her potential and give her a path, give her a path.
Like that's all sometimes what's interesting, you know.
Unfortunately, my experience in real estate has been very much command control type leadership. And I'm not telling you anything that's not obvious. It's a very male dominant industry. There's been a lot of success of people that have come up through the old style of leadership, which is that you know, real hierarchical. Unless you're you know this and you've written this and you know your own equity, then
you're really not of any value to us. And there is a real command control And you know, I remember getting when I was I guess, you know, I guess early in the industry, and I was a salesperson and I was still you know, finding my way, and I was in a very high profile, high performance environment, you know, in there, and I had a.
Young daughter who was at primary school.
And they always had the sales meeting at like eight o'clock on a Tuesday, and it.
Was designed around, you know, men who.
Had stay at home wives, who had young families, but they could leave the house at seven and get home at seven and not think once about anything else, whereas the women in real estate at the time, and again, you know, there weren't that many. You know, we often still had working husbands, and we're like, if we had to stay I want to stay at home wife. If I had to stay at home wife, I could double my income because I can leave at seven and get home at seven not have to think about anything else
as well. But we were doing the juggle, and they were like, oh, you have to if you're not committed, and you're not serious. If you're not at the sales meeting before eight o'clock, you're not serious. And you know, I literally remember pushing my kid out the door. It out, you got it. She wanted to tell me something, you know, she's going to school. I'm dropping off. She want to tell me something. I'm like, no, no, no, you gotta go, you got to go. I'm stressing about being late. And
I get to the meeting. I'm three minutes late, and they slammed the door in my face and said, you're not serious, you know, And I just went wow, And you know.
I'll never forget that.
And I thought, I'm never going to create an environment where I've actually got a playing field that's not equal for people to have a fair Go, let's make the suse let's make the sales meeting at nine point thirty.
You know what.
Let the dads drop the kids off, let the mums drop the kids off, whatever. But we don't have to have it just because we've always done it that way. I mean, you know again, why do we We've always done that. Why would we change it? Well, because it doesn't actually suit anymore.
Wow, that's that's fucking hrrh like. Of course I believe you, But I think, how fucking dumb of those people, Like, how do you do that? How do you get a bunch of people And in the bunch of people, not one of them goes, hey, listen, I don't know that that's a great idea, and also that's kind of shit to treat her that way, Like how does nobody stand up and go, wait, what are you doing? Like? How does no one? How is that okay to treat anyone?
You know, but to treat a woman anyone though, fucking anyone like it?
Just you know it is? It was.
It was eye opening, and sure enough I didn't work there for much longer because, as I said before, I left because of that. Like I left not because of that, but I left because of that the way if I was going to be treated like that, it's not the right environment for me.
I can't thrive in that environment.
How many? How many? Not that it matters, but out of interest. So there's twenty people in your team at the moment, give or take. What's the split? Is it mainly guys? Mainly girl Now I'm.
Actually it's one of my focuses. But the splits, the splits would be fifty to fifty, but it's unfortunately it's for me. It's something to focus on. The majority of the girls or the females within the business are not quite They're not in sales, so they're in property management. They're in marketing, they're in admin. You know, they're in support roles. There's a female office manager. My board is
all male. Now, the good news is that they are obviously thought well, you know, I got here on merit. But at the same time, having a female CEO in the real estate industry is rare. There's only a handful of us, and the ones that we have, I'm friends with them all and again I've you know, a lot of respect for them, and you know, some of them are in very traditional you know, real estate franchisers, where I'm like, I look at that and go, oh, I know,
if I can move the needle there. I feel like I've got a group and a board that are very progressive and open and you know they are embracing it. But yes, we're we need to balance out some more females selling in the business.
Wow. All right. My last question, why the fuck is real estates so expensive in Melbourne? Sally O'Connell, What is that about?
According we're a value now, Craig, because all the other states have been going up and Melbourne's been on a decline now for really three years, so we're probably at the bottom.
We are not, are you? Telling me it's cheaper to buy a house in Sydney.
No no, no, no, no, no, no no no.
We're deer than w A with deer than South Australia.
So what what has actually happened? And there's a bit of nuance to it?
But what's actually I hate it when I get corrected.
I know you Too's actually the last two years is that Perth like wa has gone up, like their days on market if average days on market at twenty eight, they're at ten, Like it's ridiculous.
The demands there and the supply is way out of whack, so their prices have gone up like twenty six percent in the last twelve months.
Phenomenal. That's slow like the peak. The rate of the growth has slowed.
Brisbane Queensland again gone up you know, I think sort of eighteen percent on average over the over twelve month period. Sydney's been on a decline that started to sort of slow the decline side of slow, and Melbourne's been on quite a rapid decline. So we're still off our peak, which would have been pre post COVID where the market just went nuts. We're probably still five to fifteen percent,
depending on which market. You're in off that peak, and if anything, Melbourne has actually been the lagging state.
So I guess what I'm saying is that.
Investors are now starting to look at Melbourne going Actually Melbourne doesn't look as expensive it used to and the medium dwelling price, so I say, dwelling in Melbourne is actually now below Sydney, Brisbane, Canberra, and I think Adelaide might have even pipped us.
Now that's dwelling.
When you break it down to houses of detached houses versus apartments, then we're second behind Sydney. That tells you that we've got a lot of apartments compared to the other capital cities, so that you know what I mean by that, Like so Yt anyway, so it's probably good value. That said our state government, we won't get into politics, but they haven't made it very attractive or appealing for.
You to buy investment property in Victoria.
So a lot of that money is going into state because why would you hear at the moment there's not a lot of incentive for you.
And I say, is it patronizing that I say, I'm so proud of you, You're so fucking smart.
Oh, I'm proud of you, I.
Like, honestly, that seventeen year old bloody triathlete. I listen to you now and I'm like, jeepers, who's this woman? Who's this?
No, I'm just going to say though I've followed you, and I'll say it again. You don't probably realize it, but you had a real impact on my early years and I'll.
Never forget that.
And I've followed you, and I think what you've been able to create with your books and your podcasts and your corporate speaking and which is really you're playing to your strengths ultimately, because I mean, at the end of the day, you're always a great entertainer for all of us.
I just wanted a job that didn't where I could just basically be a fuckward in front of people and somehow get paid.
It's unbelievable that you've been able to curate that hundred.
It's that that's exactly right, And you know, it's like I felt like I haven't actually had a job for thirty years. Hey, I don't know if you want anyone to follow you anywhere, but do you want to be do you have any social media or anything or a peaceeople want to connect with you.
That you know abbat Crombie's, so we're you know, we're passionate about looking after people.
So yeah, you can find me there.
I've got an Instagram which is not huge, in LinkedIn, but LinkedIn is probably good for me.
All right, thank you.
How many podcasts have you done? Is this number one? Is this your debut?
I've done a couple within the industry, so very real estate. Yeah, but no, this has been this has been my most enjoyable by far.
And yeah, it's just nice to be able to connect with you and have a have a chat. Really, so thank you.
Well we'll say goodbye affair, but Sally O'Connell, good job you you did so good. I think we're going to get you back and we'll pay you exactly the same fee. So you're welcome. You're welcome.
Thanks, Thanks Greg,