Hi, Greevers, Welcome to another installment the show. Tiffany and Cook Lillian Veronica Najad. What's your middle name, Champ? I should know my middle name.
Yeah, it's Maddy Am.
Maddy Am. That's fancy.
That's way way of saying Mary or Mary and I guess yeah, no.
No, that's way fancier than tiff and Craig. What I mean, everything's fancier than Craig.
Your name Anthony, Well that's a good nice name.
Well yeah, but Craig's like fingernails on the blackboard, isn't it No? I think it is the name equivalent anyway, Doctor Lillian, welcome to the project. How are you?
I'm all right.
Now? You know what I was thinking, because well we just did a we did a interesting chat just before with doctor Bill, who's a regular here, who's a researcher and a genius from the start. It's also like you from the States, also a genius like you Vivity, Bobby Boot look at you. But we're two PhDs. We're talking about tif having a few just feeling a bit flatty,
Mac Flatster and me feeling that a bit sometimes. Who looks after you, like, what's your because we're talking about sometimes you know, sometimes you know why you feel shit because something's happened, so you're a bit sad or the breasted or traumatized or anxious about a thing. But sometimes you get up and there hasn't been a thing, and you're like, I have the feeling, but I don't have the or I'm not aware of what's going on. Do you have a bit of that ever?
Of course I have that probably lots of times. I think it's a pretty common thing, like just to not feel like your best, and most people don't feel their best right, Like feeling your best is pretty rare, I think, so they don't.
Try to Do you try to self diagnose? Or do you talk to someone or do you go I know I'm best when I just stelay from people for a half day, or like what's your go to?
I have different I don't think I have one go to. I think it depends on what I what it is. I think I'm good at kind of knowing like what
I'm feeling and then not actually needing to necessarily know why. Yeah, you know, some like sometimes we talk about like, you know, the why being super important in lots of context, But I feel like sometimes in mental health and wellbeing, it's somewhere you can get stuck, you know, like if you're just like, oh, why do I feel this way and you just can't work out why, then you're just stuck in like this never ending conversation with yourself about that
instead of just like acknowledging the reality of what is right now, being like, Okay, I'm not feeling great, not really sure, why could be ABCD, not really sure what am I going to do about it, and letting and not judging how you feel like. I think that's the
other place that people get stuck is judgment. So it's like uncertainty is one I don't know why, so I'm going to just ruminate about that for two hours and or I feel this way and I shouldn't, so I'm just going to ruminate about that and judge myself for the rest of the day and feel worse as a result. Whereas self judgment isn't a huge part of my makeup, I don't think it ever has been, and maybe that's a flaw in some ways, it probably is, but it's
been good in other ways. I don't get stuck in judgment.
I think self judgment is like an unhealthy version of self awareness.
Right totally, you know, yeah, exactly. I think you're right. I think it's healthy to like, like, judgment leads to guilt. Guilt has a function. It can be healthy because you might have done something wrong, right, right, So yeah, you might have made a mistake or you might have hurt someone's feelings, and that guilt is like the signal of like, oh,
let's reflect on this. But like you said, you can do that without judging yourself again, and if you're able to do that, then you can most likely do something about it that's effective or helpful or healthy.
I think for me it's about self awareness, not self loathing. Like I can recognize things in me that are not good, right, but then me going down an emotional end or psychological rabbit hole of the fuck I'm shit house, woe is me? I'm the worst person? Who am I to tell people what to do? I can't even do it myself. And then it's like, well, okay, you flawed and you're human and you fuck up. Welcome to the world's biggest club, the human club, right, And then you know it's like
I feel flat, Okay, that's all right? You probably won't tomorrow, so you know, and we don't need to celebrate it. But I think the more like one of my friends used to get anxious and quite anxious. In fact, a guy worked with and he'd have like these anxiety attacks or panic attacks. And the best thing I could the best thing that he could get from me was I go, look at me. He'd look at me and I go, you're okay. I go, I no, you don't feel okay, but you're okay. He's like, am I I go, you're okay.
I go, your big fucking blouse, but you're and he'd laugh. I go, you feel anxious. You feel and I'm not saying you don't or you shouldn't, but it's even though you're anxious, it's all right. You're anxious. You're not going to be anxious in a while. He's like, yeah, that's true. I go, all the other times that you got anxious? He goes, yeah, I go, did you stop being anxious?
Eventually he goes, yep, I go, probably going to happen again. Yeah, you know, So you're not denying the feeling, but you're not turning up the volume on it right exactly.
And the way I talk about that with myself and with family and with clients and stuff. Is acceptance, you know, Acceptance is being aware of what's going on and seeing reality exactly as it is without judgment, and if that's one of the hardest things to do, because a lot of things are really hard to set the reality of. Yeah, but you know what you were asking before, like what do I do? Do I retreat or do I talk
to somebody? And I feel like I've got a whole list of things that I do, and it just depends that day and that feeling what I decide. I might put my pajamas on, curl up on the couch and watch a show that makes me feel comforted or gives me a laugh. Or I might know that I'm going to I'm going on a walk with one of my friends that I'll be like, oh, well, i'll park this and I'm going to talk to her about it and get her perspective. Or I might like, do what I
did this morning or this afternoon. I should say when my daughter finally came down from her room teenager, it's like one o'clock, two o'clock, and just complain to her, but like in a like not in a like annoying way. I mean, you can do it in an annoying way too, but like in a kind of fun humorous way, and like, you know, in a fun way blaming her for how I feel, but like she knew I wasn't, So we were just able to kind of joke back and forth
with each other about how I was feeling. And that put me in a better frame of mind too, because humor is always Humour's always helpful.
I think, dude, what are you smiling at?
Just the fact that she's blaming your daughter. That's great. I wish I ought to keep now.
Oh my god. You can blame them for so many things that made me feel good.
Know I never thought of that. I'd love to get one. Yeah, yeah, I think also like the greatest, the greatest, one of the greatest challenges for me anyway, the human experience is apart from all the you know, doing life and paying the bills and trying to maintain your body and all of that, but is like this whole idea of trying to understand me, you know, like Socrates said, the beginning of wisdom is to know thyself. Right. It's like trying to who the fuck am I? And like, who have
I mean? And this is part of my research, I guess, but who am I for me? And who am I for Lilian? And who am I for Tiff? And who am I for the audience? And for my mum and dad? And and like who am I? You know when you kind of open that that I'm trying to understand me for me, and I'm trying to understand the me experience for others. You know, what's the overlap or what's the you know, the connect or disconnection in the middle of all that.
Yeah, I think part of that also also going back to Socrates because I I'm like a quote of his too that I didn't get much when I as a teenager, but I get now. Is that wisdom is when you admit that you know nothing something along those lines I comparaphrasing, but that idea of being comfortable with uncertainty, like you're not going to have all the answers even with when you're evaluating yourself, and you're not definitely not going to know what everyone thinks of you, So how do you
manage that? I think that's a really important one. I think the inability to manage uncertainty has caused a lot of issues, including you know, anxiety and depression and stress.
And that's a problem because the world is uncertain. Life is unsaved exactly. Relationships are uncertain, careers are I mean, the human experiences is on a level is uncertain. Like we you know, I've had friends that I loved that were healthy and fit and died, you know quite quickly that you know, and you know, I know that's very dark, but it's true. It's like we don't know. We don't know if we're going to be here next week, we
don't know, if you know. There are so many things that and I think that this is not the right word, you'll correct me. But the addiction that we have, or the predisposition that we have to need certainty and need predictability and need familiarity in a world that is largely
none of that, right, That's that's it. Like if you can't if you can't improvise, adapt, overcome, survive, thrive, figured out, solve problems, and you're a human today in the world, you're going to struggle because life is largely about figuring, sit out in real time and solving problems.
And I completely agree, and I think that a lot of people struggle because they have unrealistic expectations of life and of themselves. Yes, and that leads them to kind of believe like that they need things for instance, that they really don't, or they have to be something or someone that you know, they don't actually have to be. Yeah, I think a lot of people struggle with that.
We're doing a thing at the moment. Shout out to all my peeps who are doing the seven day Kickstart. I don't know when this will go up, it might be on the last day, but we're doing a thing Doc and Tiff Knows just called the typ seven day kickstart.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah. My idea was because obviously we're banging on about theory as we're doing today, which is what all podcasts starts, just words, just conversations, which is good. Some are good, some are not. Yeah, But like my idea was to do something where we stop talking and we start doing for a week. And obviously the talking is going on, but and I just said, look, here's the thing. I'm going to write some challenges, tasks, whatever you want to
call them. Five different areas, you know, some summer strength, some are cardios, some are personal development, education, some are about resilience, some are about cognitive training. Five different areas, three you know, three options in each, blah blah blah blah blah. Right, but what's really good is just the fact that people are just jumping in and doing things
that are uncomfortable. And I'm like, I'm suggesting. I say to them, Look, if one of the options is to go for a five k walk jog and you do that anyway, well, don't pick that. There's no growth in that. In fact of the fifth there is. Every day, there's fifteen different options in five different options over the seven days. I said, I personally, if I was doing it, I would look through that list and go, what's the thing I really fucking do not want to do? And I would do that one right now.
You're very rare, Craig, but that's what I would do.
That's where the value challenging yourself Like, but you go, well, I mean, like you have to. It's kind of two parts. Do you want to build adaptability and resilience? Do you do you want to be good under pressure? Do you want to be able to deal with life and mess and pain? Yes? I do? Well, guess what you have to train? You're not accidentally going to build resilience and capacity and cognitive flexibility, and you're not just going to
end up with that accidentally by choosing comfort. So we want these things by you know, flexibility, resilience, but we don't want to do the work to create that outcome. And this is it's like when they're like, who wants to be in shape? Everyone who wants to do the work. No one who wants to help beating shit, No one who wants to reduce their booze by half fucking no one who wants to look amazing. Everyone, this is the problem.
Yeah, exactly, I really like I have been following your seven days. In fact, I did challenge myself. It was a knowledge one. I think it was about learn something about thermogenesis.
I actually fucked up the words. I only saw it later. I did a type by but it's called the thermic Effective Food them.
Yeah, I did, and I did some research on it, so now I'm a little bit more knowledgeable.
That's actually really interesting, not all calories.
Yeah yeah, yeah, but I did what I did like about your list. I liked how there's so many practical options that people can choose from. But I really liked the section that you included on I don't know what you called it, but it was basically about distress tolerance, like how do you tolerate discomfort? Like what you just.
Said, Yeah, resilience, that's a resilience.
A resilience one. Yeah. So in you know, I practice a few different models of therapy, and one of them is called dialectical behavior therapy, and there's a whole skills section of that or portion of that treatments, and it's one of the main groups of skills is called distress tolerance.
And it is really that ability to tolerate discomfort of any kind, so most often internal discomfort, right feelings, thoughts, but also behaviors, environment, circumstances, situations, people, And it's it is a skill where we don't really learn, right, No
one's really teaching us how to do that. You might learn passively, or you know, you might have models of that behavior in your family, or something might have happened that was distressing you saw how people dealt with it, and you kind of learned through kind of social learning experiences. But we're not really taught skills on how to deal with distress. So I thought it was really nice and that you had that as part of your list of things.
I think just the way that we want to train our body. You know, it's like, do you want to be strong and have good bone density and muscles that work? And do you want to be sixty or seventy one day and be able to get in and out of a chair and pick up your grand kit? Yeah, everyone says yes, you go cool, so, so work out consistently so and if you don't love it, that's okay. You'll love the results, you know, I love And what's his name?
Andrew Hubman talks about a part of the brain called the anterior mid singulate cortex, which is essentially a part of the brain that literally gets bigger, creates new neural pathways, and we can see basically almost like a muscle getting bigger, this part of the brain getting bigger when we do hard things. Now, that hard thing could be going for a run, or it could be having a conversation you don't want to have, or it could be it could be you know, you want to go to bed, there's
a sink full of dishes. You're like, fuck it, I'll do it in the morning. And you're like, nah, I'll just do it. So this part of the brain actually physically grows and adapts when we do hard things. And I love that idea that there's a comparative kind of you know, training our body training our brain, and when we you know, like the idea obviously of strength training is literally working against resistance. Resistance training, you know, so what do you do? You go do something hard. What's
the byproduct? Oh, I get stronger, I get better, I get more functional, I'm a better version of me. Well fuck, imagine if we took that idea and transferred it to the mind or to the brain.
You know, it also works. And I really like that too, and I've heard that it's also you know, taking that even further. When you're doing a challenging thing over and over and over, it's not challenging anymore. It's easy. Right, So then you then you switch because you're not getting that same growth and that work that I think that's the same for But you know, when training your body as well, you can't just do the same exercise forever. You have to switch it up in order to get the benefits.
Yeah, that's called progressive overload. And it's the same with the mind. Yeah, exactly the same, exactly the same. I wanted to ask you I had one which is a bit of a left tangent, but okay, it's about self sabotage.
I feel like for a fair bit of my life and probably still at times, I've gotten in my own way like I've still I've done okay, I've done okay, But there are times when I have really whether or not it's been avoidance, or whether or not it's been my lack of willingness to own up to my own bullshit like self delusion, whether or not it's been laziness or imposter syndrome. And Tiff and I have spoken about
this ad nauseum. But that and I even spoke about last interview that we had or last chat that we had with doctor Bill. I was talking about when I was a kid. I was so insecure when I was a young male, Like my goal wasn't to be attractive, it was to look intimidating because I felt so weak. I thought I just want to be fucking big and terrifying looking. Not because I wanted to hurt anyone, but I was so insecure. I thought I looked pissy, and
men don't want to look pissy. Well I didn't, you know, So I think i'd love to know your take on, you know, navigating these ideas and these patterns and these habits that where we're essentially getting in our own way, and what we can do about that.
Yeah, I think I have lots of thoughts about this. One of the first things that comes up for me is this, It's a concept I used to call life blockers. I think that's what you're kind of talking about. It's like, what's the what's blocking you from doing what you want, changing how you want, being who you want, blocking from
your goals? And I divided up kind of there are so many things that can block you, and there's so many things that can be obstacles, and I think that they can come from within you and they can also
be outside of you. And so I'd say, like if I was you know, if I if I'm talking to someone who's self sabotaging or I'm thinking about it myself for myself, I would be thinking, like, what are the feelings that could be getting in the way, What are the thoughts that I have that could be in thoughts and beliefs that I have that could be getting in the way, What are the behaviors that are getting in the way, What are the relationships that might be getting
in the way, And what are the circumstances and situations that might be getting in the way. And that includes like physical issues that you might have or health issues, and I think those kind of five categories really if you're if you really think about those things, you'll find that there's probably something from every category that's that's blocking you.
But usually something more salient will come out. You know, is it that I am anxious about doing something new, or is it that my thoughts are that it's impossible to change at this age? Or is it because is it my avoidance behaviors? You know what? Am I actually my procrastinating a lot? Am I distracting? Am I isolating myself? Am I you know escaping with alcohol or other substances?
Relationships we all know, like we all have different relationships and some will be helpful on our way to change, and others might not be not on purpose necessarily right, like you might like if you think about, like something
that's really common when you become a new mother. You've got a baby, that's a relationship, that's a relationship, so that's going to get in the way of some things, at least for a while, a little while, And even though you might not be able to do anything about it, I think it's helpful just to be aware and acknowledge that that is a reality of your life right now. Yeah, and now can reduce some of the distress associated with not being able to do what you want to do or what you want to need.
I want to, I want to. I want to go back to something you said, I want to go back to relationships. So I've got a post I put up there. I wrote it years ago, I put up here every now and then, and it's about the friendship litmus test, right, And my friendship litmus test is is my life better with this person in it or out of it? Right now?
I know that's a bit brutal, but like the amount of people over the years who have said to me something like my friend there's you know, they basically tell me how their friend backstabs them or treats them badly, or is disrespectful or and I'm not talking about the odd thing, right, I'm talking about consistently where their friend in inverted commas doesn't treat them well and I go, hey, lean into me. They're not a fucking friend. That's not
a friend, that's just a person. You know, Yeah, like tell us about I know this is diverging a little bit, but I think most people listening would have one person in their life that they go if I could just snap my fingers. And I'm not talking about family, I'm not talking about relatives, I'm not talking about yarsband. But in terms of friends, how do we how do we
untangle ourselves? I know there's no three step play, but what do you think like in terms of like, for me, this is my definition, let me know what you're like. A toxic relationship or an unhealthy friendship is one where it gives you, generally speaking, more stress and more anxiety and more negative than positive. And there's a fair bit of it. Like I'm not saying, oh, you and your friends are going through a bit of shit at the moment, you know, not that, but where they are consistently it's
a lopsided relationship and it's slopsided in their favor. How do we or what do we do about that?
Well? I guess what I mean, I guess the first question is, well, what need are they actually fulfilling for you, because why are you still friends with this person?
Well, I think a lot of people are just scared to end it, like people are maybe like people have fear around confronting someone going hey, I know we know each other, but I actually don't want you in my life as a friend because it's right. I just think, why do we and we do? We tolerate it? How many I'm not talking necessarily about intimate relationships, but how many relationships which are unhealthy do people stay in because they associate more pain with ending it than staying in it.
It's like, oh fuck, it's not worth the drama.
Yeah, And look, sometimes that's true. I mean in some cases, like we know, in a lot of you know, serious domestic violence related relationships, it can be worse to leave in that moment, right, So safety can be an issue. But in general, for people who aren't in that situation, I think we do. I mean everyone has a need for love and belonging, and our relationships are the basis of resilience in our lives, like the number one factor in building resilience. But that need can be warped into
unhealthy and unhealthy need for approval from everyone. People pleasing or passivity, like you're saying, I'm going to be a passive person in this friendship. I'm just going to tolerate them when they're around me. But like you said, you might be too scared or anxious to have a real conversation with the person about what the problem is, or you might be too scared or anxious to just distance
yourself completely and a relationship. And I think everyone's everyone's circumstances and situations are so different too, Like if you don't have a lot of connections, then it might be even it's highly probable that it would be even scarier, even if that person isn't helpful in a lot of ways in most ways, but they're like the only person that's consistent in your life, yes, and they're not like harming you in like a like you know, like a very concrete way. It can be hard to let go
or something like that. So I feel like, yeah, it's really.
Yeah, it's multifaceted, and there's no yeah, yeah, yeah, look I get it. I totally get it. And the idea of being yeah, I think sometimes for some people to the idea of no relationship is more terrifying than a bad relationship, so and I understand that. Yeah, it's it's it's it's a it's a compromise. But I think I'm weird because I've lived by myself forever, so I'm probably too much the other way, I'm like, I'm unhealthy, And what's the word. I'm probably atypically comfortable being by myself,
you know which. Again, but isn't it funny how you can be in the middle of a million friendships and feel lonely. Well, you can be relatively on your own and not feel lone Like I never feel lonely, even though I spend a lot of time alone. Yeah, but I get But then I reckon if I was I don't know, I wasn't me and I didn't have the access to all the people that I do, and I didn't get you, some of my emotional and social needs met through all the connections through this and all the
stuff I do. And I lived in the country by myself, and it'd probably be different. I'd probably be lonely.
Yeah, I think it's really important to understand that everyone has kind of their own individual needs and circumstances and experiences. But I mean, with the situation about whether you keep or don't keep a friend. I mean we talked about that. We could look at that in a life the life block or framework as well, Like you can say, like, well, what feelings are getting in the way of me doing something about this, what thoughts are getting in the way,
what behaviors, what relationships, what circumstances. Then at least you have like a level of awareness, and then you can make a choice based on that, and that choice might still be to keep the friend, but at least you're making a conscious decision rather than being like this passive you know person in your life. You're saying, I'm choosing this.
I know this person is unhealthy for me in abc D ways, but I've also evaluated it based on these you know, circumstances or or these beliefs that I have, and so I'm choosing to continue with this relationship for now. I think that's really important to have like agency, that you're not just on this passive ride letting someone else dictate you know, your life and who you spend time with. That you're actually making a conscious choice, even if it's not necessarily the healthiest one moment.
Yeah, So almost like doing a cost benefit analysis and then gone, mm hmm, I'll stay for now.
Well that's pros and cons. But I feel like this is more about self awareness. This is more like, why am I choosing to be friends with this person?
Yeah?
Yeah, Oh, there's a level of they're the only person in my life right now. There's a level of I know what to expect. There's no surprises with this person. I have a core belief that you you, you know, keep at it with your friends, and you know things can get better. Like there there are things that you know, values and you know other there's a lot there are a lot of factors that will play a part in those decisions, but not knowing what they are is just
living blindly and you know. Then then it's called self sabotage, which is quite a vague term and quite judgmental and blaming, rather than oh no, I've I've actually looked at this, and I know why I'm making this choice, this choice.
Do you think? I think the way that we get into let's talk about relationships now. The way that we get into relationships is interesting because I feel like when one of your goals this year, my goal in twenty twenty five is to meet my life partner or you know, I don't know, is that a good goal that seems fraught with danger? Like or to I mean literally, I know many have known many people over the years, so like the top of their to do list was to
get married. I'm like, wow, when that's like your priority and you're not even in a relationship at this point in time, I don't know that you're going to start that potential marriage on the best foot because you're going to be somewhat compromised in like, because you care more about being married than finding the person that is the best person for you. Maybe you know, is good? Is it a good goal? Or is it I don't know.
I mean I think it's it's again, it's so it's quite I know, marriage seems like it's a concrete thing, but it's not. Really What does marriage mean to you? Like, it means something different to everybody. For some people, it means that they'll be approved of, you know, like a lot of you know, mostly women unfortunately, but people if they're not married by a certain age, they feel like society is looking down on them. So it's not even like the goal isn't really about marriage, it's about feeling
good enough or worthy or valued. So I think it's like really thinking about what your goals actually mean. What? What is it? Why do you want that? That's where Why is I think important important and important question to ask yourself? What does it mean to me? How will my life be different?
Yeah? Yeah? How old is marriage? Tif? Can you? Can you google that? Can you? How long is the institution of marriage? Like, so we've been around for three hundred thousand years as a species, give or take. How long? How old is marriage? I wonder in terms of as a cultural norm in the way that what's your guess, doc, what's your guess?
Oh, gosh, I don't know. Ten thousand years? I don't know.
Yeah, I would have said around that too, I don't know, Like when the what do you got? Tiff?
The word marriage comes from Middle English and was first seen in nineteen fifty to thirteen hundred CE.
I don't even know what that means.
That means basically that's the new term for BC before.
So not that long, man, like four thousand years, three thousand?
How long has this marriage been in existence? Thousands of years? Yeah? Twenty three fifty okay, so four and a half thousand years. That's not long if you think we've been around for two to three hundred thousand years as a species modern man, modern man. Yeah, that's yeah, I will Yeah, So.
Why did you ask the question? What were you? What was? Well?
I was just like, you're it's interesting when you say, yeah, but what does it mean? I'm like, that's actually a fucking good question. What does it mean? And I'm not by the way people think because I'm not married, but I'm definitely not anti marriage. Most of my friends are married, my parents are married, my all my best mates are married and happily married. Like there's it's disproportionately successful for my for the people in my world.
So yeah, and I think the meaning of marriage would have changed over time, and it's definitely different and different even now in different cultures too, like history of marriage just being like basically a deal, you know, like a deal between families, and so that's not that's not a belonging need, that's like a safety and security need. That's something different like we think about. Yeah, so.
Chiefs definitely wants to say something I do.
In our culture in Australia and similar cultures, isn't it funny how marriage would have to be probably one of the biggest aspects of a person's life. And it's one of the only things I can think of right now where you get no guidance, no training, no education, and no coaching or and you're just off you go out figure it out like you be coaching, You get education, you get everything else in your life that you have to go and do and achieve.
You you get some structure around it.
Yeah, I mean really we get our knowledge, you know, our knowledge or information about the marriage and those kinds of relationships through what we see and around us, like what we experience ourselves in our lives, and also like models and you know, pop culture might maybe like television, like there's lots of models for relationships, but it's usually you're right, like, usually no one's really seeking relationship counseling
until there's a problem. I mean, look in some actually, in some cases people do seek marriage counseling or kind of education and relationships before marriage, and some like churches and things. I think that there are some requirements or nudges towards like having chats before you actually get married and having those kind of conversations about what your values are and what your goals are, and you know your differences and but probably on the whole in those people aren't doing that.
All right, I've got a pop quiz for you too. You're not allowed to neither of you allowed to use your computer, not allowed to use your computer. Divorce rates in the United States? What percentage of all marriages and then divorce.
Tiff I'm going to go sixty percent.
Well, says here, forty to fifty so yeah, and then okay, UK, the UK forty, yeah, forty two, very good, TIF Australia sixty forty forty Canada blah blah blah. I'll tell you what's interesting. Both you India have a.
Guess eighty percent. No, would be a lot less, so I mean eighty percent successful.
Twenty you're saying, yeah, the lan what's your guess. I think I'll go with Tiffany on that one.
India one to two percent.
Oh really, it's really interesting when I was there talking about arranged marriages versus marrying for love, and it's real eye opening in it.
Yeah, I found it really interesting.
Well, yeah, he's got for an agreement and it's based on values and respect and it actually tends to Funnily enough, the lady I had the conversation with divorced and came and married someone for love, but she said it can be a better arrangement.
Yeah, and well, I think it's really we can come up with all sorts of interpretations for that, right. It's like one is potentially getting married for reasons other than love might make your marriage last long, or that could
be an interpretation. But it could also be that it's so frowned upon in society that people are afraid to leave their relationships, or it's maybe really difficult in terms of if you are a divorced person, particularly women, I would imagine what the circumstances of your life would be after that. So yeah, I don't know what accounts. That's very low, that's shockingly low.
That's a good point though. Culturally and also religiously, Like when I was young and I was super churchy, I was in a church where you pretty much you don't
get divorced, Like, yes, it's not an option. I mean it technically is, but if you get divorced, you're pretty much out of the religion, you're out of the church, and so you know, and people would get married super young because there was no sex before marriage, and so you know, people wanted to root so that'd get married at twenty I was engaged at twenty one in that church. Did you do you know that?
Tip?
I did?
I did?
I was engaged at twenty one, and shout out to my ex fiance. She dodged a bullet by missing me. Fuck how lucky is she? I would have been a fucking nightmare. Imagine marrying me. So God intervened and saved her from me. So well done her. But yeah, it's but even me ending the engagement, fuck, that did not That wasn't a good puff. That was pretty much the That's pretty much the closing of the door me. Yeah.
So yeah, so you can see why a lot of people wouldn't have made that decision. Yes, it's uneven for a need for belonging to that to a marriage, it's need for belonging to a whole group.
Yeah people, Yeah, yeah, oh one. And it's like and also, I guess if you grow up in a religious or cultural or you know whatever cognitive parad on that says this is okay, you get married, then you don't get unmarried, and that's really hard wired into your operating system, then you just go, well, you just sold you're on. I mean, I know, I know lots of older people who like, doesn't matter that the marriage is shit. It's like not being together. That's not even a question. It's like, no,
this is just how it is. It's like, we're not meant to be happy forever. So what are you talking about?
How? Yeah, these core beliefs that are passed down, you know, like from wherever, whether it's your family or society or a church or you know, they're internalized when you're young, and you just then you decide, we're meant to decide whether you want to maintain those beliefs. But a lot of people don't, like you said, they don't reflect on those things. They just live their life that way and they're like, well, these are just the rules of life.
It's like, well they were somebody else's rules for life. They don't actually have to be yours. But that can be a really hard thing for people to grasp if they've been living that way for so long.
Well you don't. That's interesting is when you grow up in essentially you know, an echo chamber of thoughts or an echo chamber of belief or theology or whatever. You you don't know that it's not it's not the way, it's just our way. It's like, no, this is not the objective reality. This is just the reality of this group that I'm in, right. But it's like you confuse the thing that happens with your story about the thing
that happens, and you don't. It's you know, when you're in the middle of something like I think Stephen Covey Seven Habits of Highly Affective People, he said, essentially, you can't be objective about the thing you're in the middle of, you know, And he was talking about business he's talked about or was that a different book, but anyway, the principle was you can't work on the e myth that was you can't work on the business and in the business.
And it's like so true when you're in the middle of anything, you know, a relationship or a group or even some kind of process, and then for whatever reason, you temporarily get out of that and you're like, oh, oh, it's like I reckon if you had a bit of that when you went to India. It's like all of a sudden, you're out of your life. I mean, you're still in your life, but you're out of your routine.
You're away from the gym, you're away from people, you're away from your normal environment and operating system, and now you're in a different place mentally, emotionally, and geographically, and you're like, ah, and you can see shit in India about your life in Australia that you didn't see in Australia.
Yeah.
Yeah, Like there's a level of perspective that you cannot have unless you basically get away from where you are, either literally or metaphorically.
Yeah, that's true. Put yourself in it with new people, new circumstances.
One hundred percent. That's like one of the one of my challenges now back to our seven day kickstart is basically hanging out with people who aren't like you, Like I have conversations with people who don't believe what you believe, Like, stop hanging around people who tell you you'll right right.
And I also think like the message of you know, there there is on there's my way, right, there's this way. It's not just in like what we were talking about before, like in you know, particular groups or a societies or churches or whatever, Like we're fed that line a lot, like this is the way, this is the way to be healthy, this is the way to lose weight. This is it's like this is the one formula in the one way, and it's like, well, no, it's that's not true.
There's lots of ways, and there's also going to be ways that work specifically for you that might not work for the next person. So there's like your personalized way as well, and understanding what that is is what's important, which is another reason why I like your seven day
thing because it's giving people so many options. Yes, and because and if you can practice lots of different skills, yes and behaviors, then you get to understand, well, what are the things that work best for you and continue to do those things. And that list is going to be so different from You've got what hundreds of people doing this, and their list is going to be different. They're not going to be all doing the same thing.
And you think we have thousands of people listen to this chat right now, well not right now, but when they hear it, and everyone's getting something different.
Right.
But speaking of when you're saying this is the way, like in the New Testament, Jesus literally says I am the way, I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father but by me. Right, So I grew up going, oh, this is it. And it's not like sorry for dumping that scripture on you everybody.
But you know, like when you grow up in that echo chamber of theology and belief and Christianity in my case, or you know, Buddhism or Judaism or whatever ism you grow up in, right, you don't think, oh, this is just our philosophy but it could be wrong. You go, yeah, no, this is this is how it is because you're never presented with another option like you're And this is the beauty of conversations like this, where we are just going, look,
we don't actually know how it all works. I mean, the three of us are you know, probably not stupid, let's hope, but we're still figuring it out, like you don't. You know, I'm still trying to figure out how humans work. And I'm reasonably knowledgeable and I've done a lot of shit, but there's way more that I don't know than I do, you know, and I think that being able to say, listen, this is what I've been programmed and taught and told and trained to believe. But I don't know if that's true.
That's just what I've been taught and told and trained, and that's okay. But I think, like with me, it took me a very long time to not feel guilty and to not feel like a bad human for even questioning all the shit I've been programmed with.
And it's not and yes, and it's not even only guilt, it's anxiety because it's very compelling to have someone say this is the certainty of life. You just do this and you'll be fine. These are the steps. People want certainty. They do, and they want control, and they want approval, and you get all of that, you know, if someone just says, follow my way, these are the right steps. Do this and this outcome will be a certainty for you.
But the cost, the cost of that is you are strongly discouraged from thinking for yourself. Right, We're going to teach you what to think, not how to think, so you don't have to use your brain. Tip you're going to be in my cult, you don't even need to fucking think. You just need to comply and conform and you can be a member. But I don't want you
to ask any questions because we don't have questions. Here, we just have compliance and that's pretty much the you know, and I'm making a bit of fun, but that ain't too far from the truth for most religions and virtually every cult.
Yeah, that's I mean, yes, And people have to make a decision about what kind of life they want. And again, if that's made with awareness, like you're conscious making a choice, you know that there are other options and ways of thinking and believing, Like you can't not know that now in our society, like forty years ago, fifty years ago, fair enough, like it's much harder to understand that there's other ways of thinking and believing. But now we're e
supposed to a lot. If you have that awareness and you still choose, you know, the path that you choose, then you're doing that with conscious awareness, and you're choosing a particular kind of life. It does mean, though, that you won't have as much cognitive flexibility. You might not be able to tolerate distress as much because there, like you said, life is about uncertainty and having a lack of control. Whether you believe it is or isn't, it actually is that way, So there might be some costs
to choosing whatever path you choose. But the cost of choosing a path of like uncertainty is that you will feel uncomfortable a lot. But then you just you learned skills to deal with that, and now that's what makes you resilient and empathic.
And when you can become comfortable in the middle of discomfort, you're doing all right. I've got a question for both of you. Then we're going to wind up. So I'm going to start with you, Doc, and then TIF give you somethink time. So for me, there's twenty different examples
of an answer to this question. But what was a belief that you had when you were younger, maybe a really strong belief that you had when you were younger that you've either done a one eighty on or you've replaced that belief with something else, or you're now unsure about that thing you used to be sure about. Is there any particular belief for you, Doc, something that was very influential or powerful on planet you when you're a kid or a young adult.
I mean, something comes to mind. I mean, the first thing was a funny answer, but I'll tell you that second. The one that comes to mind is kind of I think when I was a child, I had this sense of if I, if I show I'm not allowed for people to know that I don't know something, right, Right, So I'm going to say styling, I'm going to say silent if I don't know, and I'll always raise my hand to answer a question if I do and thinking
that you know, obviously. Now it's more like the most confident people are the ones that can say they don't know something.
Yes, right.
So yeah, So I feel like that's or a massive shift that I would have had from being, you know, a young person to now when I teach you know people over the years, whether it's a client or a student in psychology about being able to change thoughts and beliefs, the picture is Santa Claus, right, you know, like we all can change our thoughts and beliefs, with a lot of us who've grown up in the Western world believed in Santa Claus at one point in time and now we don't. Yeah, yeah, it's possible.
Yeah, I have a bunch, tiff. What about you? I think.
Like I used to think that you could either do something or you couldn't, and that only changed for me when I won that first fight at twenty nine and I remember the penny dropping and just going you can perceive yourself as shit at something and learn anything that you want to learn.
It just it changed my world.
Yes, yes, great, I like that one.
There's so many stories like that where people do something like the boxing was great, you want to fight, that's great. It's not even about the boxing. It's about the understanding of your own ability and self awareness and well, if I can do this, what else can I do? Like there's so many people that I trained for a half marathon or a marathon or and then the run's great, but it's like, all of a sudden, there's this massive internal shift, like with.
You, yeah, especially when you go I'm the shittest at this. The whole time you think that, and then you do it anyway, and then you don't die, and then you know, in some cases you win, like you win and you go, oh, what I think about me doesn't actually matter along the way.
I like that one too for me, Like this is very different. But from when I was about eight or nine and I was on the gym floor and then I started peeteeing at at twenty one twenty two, and then probably it took till I was about thirty five where I realized the food pyramid was bullshit. Some people still don't realize, by the way, but I remember maybe thirty five, even forty, I had to go, hey, everyone, yeah, got it wrong, got it wrong. You know, I know,
I told you this hours wrong. Sorry, you know. And I thought that what I'd been taught and told and trained that that was the best science. And then we figured out that that's not the best science. And at some stage you've either got to double down and go all this new science is bullshit food pyramids where it's at, or you go ah, you know. And for me, it's like I really didn't want to, but I couldn't operate with integrity and keep telling people to do this thing
that I knew wasn't optimal. Right. But out of that, I'm like and I didn't lose my job and I didn't lose my brand, and people didn't hate me, and people were like more interested than they were angry at me. They're like, oh, why what's I went, well, there's all this and you know, by the way, guess how they came up with a food pyramid. Guess how that got developed.
Guess who funded it? Guess you know, there's all this super int story around the development of this idea that low fat eating equals low fat people, which it fucking doesn't, you know. So yeah, that for me was a revelation when I owned up to something that I was really embarrassed about. But the outcome was positive, not negative.
Yeah. I mean there should always be room for new knowledge and new learning and you know, and well being in psychology, especially in mental health. I mean, nothing's one hundred percent proven. Like you're always always learning and trying to keep up with the latest research to make sure that what you're saying is accurate and helpful and healthy and.
Also capacity to unlearn because one of one of the problems for us humans doc is and you know this, the thing that we believe is intertwined with our identity. So if you question what I believe, or you question my philosophy, then you're questioning me and fuck you. Yeah, you know that's the thing where you go. I don't want to be too intertwined with any idea or any philosophy or any theology or any anything, because if I'm too if it is me and I am it, then
how can I be teachable? If unless people are basically endorsing what I already think. Yeah, you know so many good questions. Hey, where can people connect with you and find you and follow you?
How about you go to my website, which is doctor Lillianna dot com. That's a good spot to connect. And yeah, if you need anything or interested in any particular topic, feel free to shoot me an email. You can do that through the saite.
If I ever go to bed and I'm anxious, I'm going to ring you and just get you to ring me read me a book, because.
You can just listen to this podcast apps.
Yeah, but I keep interrupting. It's like I'm fingernails on the blackboard. She's like, she's like, I don't know, honey, just pouring off a fucking I don't know. It's just the best voice ever. Oh you're so kind, But it's true, though, you have such a good voice for this stuff.
I do. I do have some Spotify stuff. If people want to relax and listen to my voice, you can go to Spotify and just put my name in. And there's some things to help you sleep or to reduce stress and anxiety. And I've just recorded three new albums, but they're not out yet.
Well, may you tell me to Spotify tonight ten o'clock. You're gonna lullew me to sleep. Well, say that sounded a little bit creepy. We're gonna go to We're going to go to bed. We're going to say goodbye. Speaking of creepy, uh, you've just lost your ship over there. Take that out. Take that out.