#1786 Out of Hell - Mick Hall (Part 2)

me to medicate everything again. And that's why people move, They change their drug of choice. They can say, yea, I was addicted to alcohol, but I'm good now, but I'm on the bonds every night, right right? Or none? No, I've stopped drinking, but you know now I'm down the pokies and I don't drink, but I'll put your money in the pokies. Yeah, or it just shifts and changes. So we call it swapping the witch for the bitch, all right, and we're just the bitch and shape shifts

because the person's only looking at treating the symptom. They're only looking at treating the substance it's taking. That's not that's not treating the problem.

explain this? Where the need to escape the way that we think and the way that we feel becomes more important than the basics of life. It becomes more important than paying rent, becomes more important than my wife begging me please stop drinking or I'm going to leave you. It becomes more important than I'm going to lose my job and I'm going to go financially bankrupt. It becomes more important than these things. What we're really chasing is dopamine.

Addiction is part of the pleasure construction of our brain. It's not only dopamine, but dope means the main neurochemical that I kind of provides that your forage state state. Yeah, so do you reckon that?

I just wanted to keep going. And before I've put it in, I've always got this I call it the iaty biddy shitty committee. I've got the voices in their head going all the time, and that's where I've got self doubt. I'm unsure. I don't want to be here. I want to find my way out of here. I want to all this thinking in that all this thing I don't fit in, and all this sort of stuff. And then when the dopamine is released in my brain, all of that just goes quiet, it stops, and it's

that's the ultimate peace of mind. And people that get into recovery from addiction, that's ultimately what we're seeking this peace of mind, and we've been running away. We've all been running away for so long. We've been running away from ourselves. And why we're running away from ourselves because for some reason, inside of every addict, there's this sneaking suspicion that's been there, probably well before we ever drink

will use. There's a sneaking suspicion that we're not good enough, we don't measure up, and maybe we're maybe we're pathetic.

gives us the type of relief that we need. And so what you can often find happen when people first try to give up drink, drugs, whatever it is that they're doing, is that all of a sudden, they're in a relationship or they're with somebody, and the codependency rears its head and the person becomes absolutely reliant on that relationship for them to be okay, because they're not used to being able to. And recovery is about learning how to find the sense of our self and be able

to process life ourselves without seeking external ways of doing that. So, whether that be enmeshment with someone else, whether that be in meshment with another substance, and that can it can happen in all types of different ways, and we all look for distractions, you know, at different times, whether it be through sport, gym, you know, it can be through sort of healthy avenues, but genuinely gents or not genuine

generally through relationships. What happens is is that it becomes it becomes very messy when we when we fall in love with someone, it creates a beautiful dopamine response and it's one that can be quite similar to using and drinking and to other addictions. And you know, I was actually just talking to a young gentleman, you believe, last night.

So actually one of my son's friends, and he's gone through a bit of a problem where he'd split up with a girl and it's absolutely almost destroyed him, and he's obsessed and he needs an escape. And I was able to say to him last night, Look, it's good that you're talking about this because you know, relationships are a huge factor in people becoming suicidal, becoming horrendously depressed, and it's because we have that enmeshment. It's because that we put all our value and our belief on what

that person feels about us and thinks about us. Yeah, and it's just, you know, it's an awful way to be because it means we're at the whim. You know, we're controlled, we're emotionally controlled by others. And recovery from addiction actually addresses codependentity because what we want is true independence of the spirit of us, and we need to

find a way to be emotionally and psychologically okay. No matter who does says things, acts in any in any shape in our off we need to find a way to be okay, and we need to find a true sense of ourselves so that we don't have to be reliant on someone else providing that sense of ourselves.

love and be loved. But you are I'm not talking about people who are unwell here, I'm talking about you know, in general terms. But but yeah, you're not your your your sense of worth and you know, self esteem and value is not dependent on somebody else's acceptance or love or you know, because then we just create. You know, this is not a this is not win win, this

is not a healthy relationship. And you think about how many people you know and I know, and you've maybe done it, and I know I've done it, you know in the old days, you know, back when you know, when I was a kid thirteen hundred years ago, I mean I was in relationships at times that were not healthy. I mean they weren't fucking toxic and destructive, but they weren't.

And you're just there because you're there, you know, I'm like, ah, well, and it's more about familiarity and ease than it is like, oh fuck, I'm so in love. I'm so in love. They're in love. And you kind of think sometimes you attach more pain to getting out of it than staying in it, so you go, ah, fuck it, it'll probably sort itself out, you know, which is I mean, that's

always that's always a great plan. I know this is shit, but it'll get I don't know how, but magically, you know, And and that so many people that I talk to these days that are in a relationship that you know, and I'm quantifying this and I shouldn't, but you know, their relationship is a two or a three out of ten, and they're not happy and the other person's not happy and it's not healthy, and nobody's life is better for it, right.

But at the same time, then they come up with all of these reasons in inverted commas, why ah, fuck it, it's just not worth it. You know, there's this, and there's that, and there's the money, and there's the kids, and we've got two dogs and we've got a mortgage in this fact, you know, and then you go. And by the way, I'm not saying they should get out of it, but I'm just thinking, I don't know that they're great reasons to stay in something that neither of you love for the next twenty years.

I mean the actual truth. Have you ever heard of washroom honesty before?

to have self discovery. It's impossible to have self discovery without that, because otherwise it's just bullshit and self delusion.

So I feel fortunate that I'm a person in recovery that has a process, a proper process that I can utilize that helps me have continuous washroom honesty with self me no matter what's going on in my life, I'm able to use this process and find out, well, what's the truth about me in regards to this situation and sometimes I've got to go through a bit of pain first, but I'm able to get to the truth of that. And of course it's been a learning process and it's

taken time, and it's taken I'd still do it. That's twenty four years in recovery, and I'm now in a place where I feel that I've got a pretty decent hand and or on it in terms of it doesn't mean I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I can I can see fairly quickly when I'm going off off the road. Yeah, and I'm able to navigate my way back onto it. And so what that's done is it's allowed me to get into a relationship with someone where I have and I may I say this quite emphatically, no dependence on

that person for my well being. You still love them, I love them very much, and I would and I would go to war for them, right and all that stuff. But I have no dependence. And because I have a sense of myself and I have who I am is not built around that person. It's built around who I am and what I do and how I treat people and what I want to achieve in my life.

What am I doing that works? What do I do? That's fucking stupid? You know? How am I for the world?

I don't think he's hating it or hating me. And having some kind of insight, right, that gives me a level of what we call meta accuracy. I just think or I'm just wondering out loud, like I think this is and it probably happens on a level, but this is a really valuable kind of construct to bring into that space, you know, the recovery space, which is, I know how you think, right, but this is how the

rest of the world thinks. And now you don't need to be anyone but you, but one understanding how you think and why you think the way that you do, good or bad. We call that meta cognition, thinking about our thinking, understanding how someone else thinks, not agreeing with them or being like them, but just understanding. Remember, seek first to understand, that's called theory of mind, and then understanding what what the fuck you were like for the

rest of the world. Because you might think you're shit hot, but the rest of the world thinks you're a cunt, right, And if they do and you don't know that, you're a bit. Yeah, I don't worry. And fifteen of my listeners have just unsubscribed, but that's okay. I mean, this is how Remember I said to you before we started, let's not do a podcast, Let's just talk like you and me, and this is how you and me talk. And so for the people that just got offended, I'm

a little bit sorry. I'm not that sorry. But this is this is as real as it gets, right, This is what I'm saying. This is the opposite of radio. This is not fucking scripted. This is not manufactured, This is not choreographed. There was no plan other than just to be real. But I think that really, you know, like that's met a perception right there where. I know that some people won't like that language. I'm cool with that.

I know that more that there'll be the largest percentage you'll be like a shoulder shrug, and probably slightly more will than won't. Go Yeah, that's funny, harps, just be you just talked, you know. But I can't And we go back to where I was in a minute. I can't run a podcast or I can't be authentic if I'm I'm putting a persona out there, if I'm like I'm pretending I talk differently to how I actually do

right and well. And I guess in some environment you need to be somewhat self regulatory, but on my podcast, I'm just going to be me.

they're in rehab. We'll get the other people in the rehab to fill out a form and to give honest feedback to what they can see when this person and their and their their view of their interactions around this person, whether it be you know, they're always you know, like giving lip service, or they're you know, like avoiding talking about hard stuff, or if they're not honest or not being honest, or you know, they're they're being deceptive or just yeah, it's just and it's a really valuable kind

of tool because we need to come out of fantasy land. You know?

we see? And so we find really good stuff like you know, really active listening and really engaging in group. All right, So there could be a whole range of different things in the positive side of the ledger, and it generally generally works pretty well. And I often tell people because people get all funny, Oh, I don't want to tell negative things about this person. I don't want to run them down. And I always tell people you're

not running them down. It's kind of like boxing, right, If I'm in the ring, sparring, boxing, preparing for a fight, and the only the people around me only tell me what I'm doing good. That doesn't fucking help me. I actually need you to tell me what I'm doing shit, because that's what I need to work on. I don't need to work on the shit i'm doing good. I

need to work on the shit i'm doing bad. Yeah. So, so pointing out the needatives, I will call them barriers to somebody, to them progressing in what they're trying to achieve is a really empowering, informative and positive process.

And then I'm asking this for a reason which will become apparent after you answer it.

And I had a bottle of beer going down my neck about around roughly thirty minutes after being released, And within two weeks I had a needle of heroin going back in my arm again so that it didn't work too well. But look, I've made my way back to Melbourne, and I was using an abandoned building in the city in Melbourne, but just in between using I decided to go and get a drink. I went into the Young and Jackson's Hotel. I went in there and I went up to the bar and I said to the barkeep,

olive the pot. And I still remember him pushing the pot across the wooden bar and I could hear it scraping along the wood. I grabbed the pot and I stuffed off the top of the phone and thought, oh, that tastes like shit. I put it back on the bar. I walked to the toilets, I had a hit of heroin. I vomited all over the toilet. I walked back to the bar and pushed the pot back across the bar to the barkeep and thought, I can't drink this, and

I walked off. And I walked around to this abandoned building and I had to get up to the first floor and this abandoned building, but I couldn't get in. There was a fire hose hanging outside a window, so I climbed up the fire hose into the first floor of this building. And if you can imagine, the inside of this building was just just all a wooden frame and all of that in there, and broken plaster and just rubbish everywhere. There was rap shit all over the floors.

There was this broken furniture. And I decided to have a hit a heroin in there, and I did, and it must have well, I nearly oded. Obviously I didn't because I'm still alive, but it certainly knocked me out.

And I woke up, I don't know how long later, with my face stuck to the carpet, this rancid rat, shit ridden carpet, and I pulled myself to my feet and I turned around, and as I turned around, this old broken dressing table, and I had a mirror on it, and there was a broken mirror on it, And as I turned around, I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror. And in that very moment, what I saw

looking back at me chilled me to the bone. And I was thirty years old, and for the first time in my life, I saw myself as I really was. And let me describe see what I really was. I was a thirty year old man that was standing at It was filthy dirty. I had no front teeth, they'd all been punched out at the pub. At the side of my face smashed in. I had screws holding my leg together from a failed suicide attempt jumping off a

bridge over a freeway. I was sixty something kilos, ringing, wet, with little chicken wings for shoulders because I've been boned out from the smack us. I had hepatitis. See, I had nowhere to go, no one to turn to, nowhere to live, no car, no nothing. And what I saw looking back at me was a dead man walking. And for the first time in my adult life ever, because I had I've had a death wish my whole life. At that moment, looking in that mirror the first time

in my life, was frightened to dying. But not only was I frightened to dying, I was frightened of living because I didn't think getting recovery was possible. I've never seen anybody, especially with a heroin addiction, really genuinely ridgie ditch turned their life around. I'd never seen it, so I didn't think it was possible. And I was called in no man's land. That's what he called hell on earth. That's my bottom.

well done. Thanks for doing that, always thinking, always thinking, always, I'm my DeFore Melissa is going to love that. They'll turn that into it. But anyway, Now I want you to talk about in your boxing career. So you were thirty and today you're fifty three or something. Correct now, correct whatever I fuck up? Correct me. But in the not too distant past, in the last few years, you've won a state boxing title, a South Asian or South Pacific boxing title.

I mean, that's about as close to dead as you can be without banddad, right, And now tell me about you know, two decades plus later being a world champion athlete, obviously in masters and all that, but fucking hell, dude, even just that you could even get through that and run around the block as a major achievement, let alone becoming an elite box So tell us about the highest point in the last few years in boxing.

But it took years and years and years of training of brutality and you know, sas type training to get to the point where I could actually get in the ring like that. And it was, you know, it was a big, big deal and he won it. And so at the end of the fight, the announcers in the ring and he's got the microphone and he's getting Chris to do to do a speech, and he says, oh, do you want to say anything? And of course I

did the old grab the microphone out of his hand. Yeah, sure, all I've got a few words to say, and I gave my little speech and I don't know, I don't know where this came from, but in that moment, but I said to the crowd, I said, today, you know, like, congratulations to Chris for winning the fight. You know it was a better fighter on the night. But I said, but make no mistake, I will be back and I will win a title. No matter what happens, I will be back. And I left it. And of course the

crab an eye. Yeah, so you know what. So then we go on. Then we have on another six fights after that, and it's last, last, last, Now, if anybody knows what it's like in sport or when you give so much of yourself and and you'd lose. I mean, as a fifty something year old man, I sat in the changing rooms after a fight and I cried because it hurt so bad to lose. Yea, and okay, probably three of those seven fights I should have won, by the way, but fucking judges. But anyway, that.

I knew that I was going to do it. Anyway, this particular fight, I won the fucking state title right like I was fucking unbelievable trip. And anyway, I'm standing there at the end of the fight and they go yep, the winner, you know, the blue corner, and the hand goes up and I feel this belt just slapped around my waist. This fucking it was so such electric feeling, and get tied up around my waist and I look around and gets who presented me the belt.

place called Nerandra, which is Country, New South Wales. It's about two hours or two and a half hours past Aubrey and and it said on the on the info for the fight said it was at the Henry Mathison Oval. And thought, oh, that's interesting. It must be pavilion or something there. So I rock up there the day before. The whole teams with me. We'll go and have a look at this venue. Well we go to this venue.

Fuck me dead if I'm lying. They're setting a fucking ring up in the middle of the oval and it's going to be going to be held under the footy lights. I'm thinking I've come to Country, New South Wales. To have a fucking blue on the oval unbelievable. But it is one of the best experiences I've ever had. It was amazing night I won the Asia Pacific super Middleweight

title WVL super Middleweight title. And when I won that fight and it was a unanimous decision, I got, you know, I've got the other guy on a standing eight count. I just did. I did so well. And as they raised my hand and they and and Gary Saint Clair came in and put the belt around my waist. I looked over the over the ropes and my son was standing in the crowd, and I don't and I know how much my son loves me and how proud of me he is, but I've never seen pride in his

eyes more than what was there that day. I can't explain the feeling like my whole team was there, so my coaches and all the fight team were there. We went back to the motel room afterwards, and I mean, and I don't drink or anything, so I having me my soda waters and a big, big parmeshama and and we sat down and we laughed and joked and just lived the moment all night.

winning titles. I mean what I love about that too is and I mean this with respect, like I think, well, one, your body was a bit fucked up from jumping off that bridge. That certainly didn't help the athletic career.

coming out the other side of addiction. I don't know if we want to call it that, but you know, a boxing career, building businesses, trying to figure yourself out, like my biggest projects, me your biggest pro That's literally why I called this show the You Project, Because irrespective of who I talk to, what we talk about, what they do for a job, where they live, everybody's biggest challenges them selves, right, Like I think, putting aside like

the fundamentals of food and safety and security and a few bucks obviously that's paramount, but put that aside, I reckon the biggest challenge for humans is managing our mind. If you can't manage your mind, you're fucked.

They're ticking all these boxes. But how many of those people? And not to say one equals the other, but definitely, having a good life in inverted commas wink wink doesn't necessarily equal happiness or calmness or joy or fulfillment or emotional or mental health. No, you know, because the like where life happens is out there, where living happens is

in here. You know. It's that it's like an internal journey and we just happen to be navigating it in a three dimensional physical space where we're bumping into other Fuck we it's like us, you know, it's like it's so we are so focused on the external world, like all we're so worried about what people see, while so really addressing the stuff that people don't see. And that's for me. This is what this is, what these conversations are about, is addressing the stuff that people don't see

so much. You know, is that internal you know, feelings, thoughts, ideas, you know, joy, paining, pleasure, fucking hope, emotional poverty, you know, isolation, self doubt, self loathing, self love, optimism. You know. It's like, if you can start to navigate and manage all of that that internal world that is you, then maybe your life experience on top of your life situation, but your life experience would be fucking awesome.