I get a team. Welcome to another installment the show. Mick Hall, Bloody Mick Hall. Where the fuck has he been? I haven't seen him for a while. That's not true. I saw him the other day, but I haven't seen him here at the You Project typ Central for quite a while. Now. I would guess in our career of almost or our life journey as a podcast of almost eighteen hundred episodes, you've been on maybe seven eight? What do you think?
I think somewhere between eight and ten, Craig.
You've been on a while, so that's about well, let's say it's nine. That's once every two hundred episodes. So it's not like webisode one. We're not flogging you. No, that was Nathan Burke when I was episode two. There you go, There you go. You fucking you were a pioneer with the U Project. You were a podcasting Do you remember back in the day, Versie II, mik go remember back in the day. I could be wrong, but
I'm pretty sure we started twenty eighteen. I mean, that's seven, might have even been seven, and I should fucking know. I could just look it up, but fuck it. But even then, I mean podcasts weren't new, but they were. They'd been around for a while and probably half of the population had heard them. But I mean, every man in these dogs got a podcast, now, haven't they?
I reckon? But I remember when you first started and you were talking to me about it. I thought, Jean, that's a great idea. I'd never heard of it, and I've never listened to a podcast, and you asked me to come and be a guest on yours, and I had no idea what I was in for, but it was. But yeah, it's amazing come a long way.
Well it's yeah, I mean peaks and trust dude. But you know, it's funny how when you when you start something that you don't really know what you're doing, but you're passionate. Right, It's like, maybe even we'll talk about you and boxing, right, because that's been a journey for you and probably about the same length of journey as
that you project. But like, obviously i'd come from doing quite a bit of radio, and you and I did some radio together, and I've done a bit of Telly, and I've been in front of a lot of people, but like a live audiences and all that stuff. But you know, when you think, oh, podcasts are not radio because it doesn't matter what we talk about. There's no producer, there's no editing per se, there's no station idea, there's no time checks, there's no weather updates, there's no fucking
traffic reports. It's not like people don't realize. I mean probably where you and I worked on sen it's a bit more there's a bit more freedom than a lot of radio because it's all talk music. But even with that, you know, you come out of the news and it's six minutes past, and you've got to go at six minutes past, and you know you've got about fourteen minutes to talk, and then you've got to throw to an ad and then then you've got to come out of that.
And so there's all of these constraints and kind of rules and REGs around. But like you and I literally could go all right, as we're recording this, it's two five on a Saturday. We could wrap it up at two thirty, or we could talk till six, like it doesn't you know.
What I mean exactly? Yeah, I love it. I love it.
That's the beauty of it. We can flow it on. Do you know what I think is a parallel between you and me, Like we had quite different upbringings, but in some ways, and I mean this with the most respect, neither you and I were inherently geniuses or fucking super gifted athletes or I mean, you're very smart in your
own way. I truly think that. I mean you built, you built multiple businesses, you made a bit of dough, You've you've you've just figured shit out, right, You've got you've got your own unique kind of intelligence, which you've made work very well for you. Right. But you know, I'm a bit older than you, but not too much older than you, and we were both kind of kids that didn't really totally fit in. Like I was never one of the popular kids. I know you always felt
like a bit left out. There's probably a few similarities, right.
There are heaps of similarities there, you know. And one of the things I love about just to stay on the podcast then for a second. One of the things I love about the podcasting is that there's what we've come into this today with you with no structure at all, And I love that because this could go anywhere, and it's a bit edgy, it's a bit we've got to be creative but natural, and I love that and I've found that to be the way with business that works
for me and also with sporting endeavors I need. I haven't always had a definite structured plan. I've known where I've wanted to head, and I've had to invent the way as I go, and I love it when it works like that for me. That just works with my creative personality, with the way that I like to move and groove, and very much so I see that in you too, create.
Do you know there's a real yeah, mate, there's a real there's a real kind of important idea around intelligence, and that is that I'm probably putting you and me I'm better still here to make that.
Well.
What I mean is, I mean, we know, we know what traditional intelligence is IQ. You know, like you sit and you do the test and you get a score. But then there's something to be said for real life problem solving, adaptability, figuring shit out, working through the fucking nightmares and the bullshit and being able to come out the other side, you know. And then and it's not to say one is better than the other or that is that's the winner over there, and this is the
poor cousin. But I went to school with lots of people that when I was at school, I looked at them and I went, that motherfucker is so smart, Like he just he studies for three minutes and gets one hundred. I start for three hours and scrape through right on the same test or five hours. Or when I first went to Monash to start a peach, I felt like a fucking wombat sitting in a cubicle. I'm like, oh
my god, how dumb am I? Because I'm around all these genuinely academically and intellectually very bright people, and they are right. But also like some of those people, you throw them a ball and it hits them in the face, you know, or you hand them a crying baby and they haven't melted out. Or you ask them to do a presentation without any slides or any graphs or any charts, and they they're fucked. They don't know what to do. And it's not to say better, worse, good or bad.
It's just like, yeah, I think intelligence is somewhat context and situation dependent, you know.
Yeah, yeah, I agree, And I think that for me, intelligence is about well, for me, it's been about understanding myself because if I know, if I'm trying to be somebody I'm not, and I have done that many, many times and a lot throughout my journey, I've tried to be somebody that I'm not and I can't do it. I've tried to fit into somebody else's mold and live in a particular way, and it just doesn't work me. So I've had to find, for want of a bit
of a term, what works for me. You know, that I can get through life kind of in my terminology legally, So.
That wasn't always the case.
No, it wasn't always the case. You know, I've needed to find a way that I can be me that I can you know, survive, not to survive, but thrive and to be able to maneuver enjoy my life and to live in a way that fits with my personality. And also, you know, it helps that helps me to live in a way that fits with my way of learning, my way of enjoying and experiencing and all that sort
of stuff. And it's taken a long time for me to be able to come to a point in my life where I think that you know, I'm at about that point now where I'm largely able to do that. Of course I'm not Saint Michael, so yeah, the on the beam one hundred percent of the time. But I'm you know, I largely I found a way that works for me, where I can develop and become the best version of myself in a way that fits me, and it works. Well.
I love them, and I think that's well, that in itself is a kind of intelligence. You know. It's like, I've spoken many times about this, and some people throw the academic system under the bus and teachers under the bus. I actually think teachers, and I'm not just saying this because I've got friends who are teachers, I think, considering what they have to work with, teachers are fucking brilliant because you know, the system is the system. You can't
make it up. Like you know, if you're a teacher, you work in the Victorian system, and there are certain boxes that need to be ticked and you need to work within certain boundaries. And that's that's all good. But think about this, I'd be by the way, I'd be a terrible teacher. People people have always said me, oh, you'd make a great teacher. I'm like, no, I'm too fucking impatient. And I hate playing in someone else's sandbox. It's like, I just want to make up my own
fucking rules, right, I'd be terrible. But think about what a normal classroom teacher has in twenty twenty five. Is like, all right, Michael, well you're the teacher. Here's your thirty students with thirty personalities, thirty different backgrounds, thirty different learning styles, and you're going to teach them essentially to this syllabus, which is kind of teaching them all the same shit on the same day in the same room.
You know.
It's like, that's hard because what a particular kind of teaching or a kind of lesson or a kind of communication will work optimally or close to optimally for some kids, but it will be fucking terrible for others. But nonetheless, that's the practical reality because we don't have thirty Craigs in the room or thirty Michaels in the room. We have a myriad of different people, you know, So I think back to your point of learning. How you know, I think outside of school. So let's set school aside
for a moment. And this is coming from someone who's spent way too long at UNI, right, But I actually think the best learning and the most valuable learning happens not at school. We need school, for sure, we need it, but the real learning and the real growth for a lot of us I should say not everyone, of course, because academics it's different. And for a lot of people
the best years of their life for school. But I think generally speaking, for many of us anyway, the real life lessons and the relationship lessons and the how do I adapt and be better? And how do I deal with bullshit and discomfort and how do I solve problems in real time? I mean, that's stuff that you have to learn just in the moment. It's like it's like if I do a workshop on resilience and one hundred
people rock up online, that doesn't make them resilient. That just means they've heard some theory about What makes them resilient is when they get off the call and then they step out into life and they start dealing with shit and they apply some of the principles perhaps we spoke about. Then they start to get some results. They fall down, they get up, They do that one hundred times, Bibody Bobby Boo. A year later, they're more resilient because they've done the fucking work right.
Yeah, one hundred percent, absolutely, one hundred percent. For me, I found I found school for me, just for me personally. I found it completely useless. I'm really sort of It was very little that I took out of school. But for me, life has been the best teacher. But you know, I went to a different type of school and it wasn't the kind of school didn't want many people to go to. Yeah, and you know, my life was in addiction.
I found that to be you know, the biggest build of resilience if you can make it through addiction and make it through anything, but the way you know, to to live a life where you've had just I guess you know, sort of loss of hope after loss of hope, after loss of hope, but you still find a way to keep putting one foot in front of the other, keep trying to claw your way out, and then finally you get your way out, which I did. That was the best, you know, that was the best sort of
learning for me. And it didn't stick straight away though. Like I've I've been in recovery you know, from addiction. So if I stay in recovery for another week, Craig, I've been twenty four years clean and sober, and that just thanks mate, That just blows my mind. Right, So it completely blows my mind. But the learnings from what I went through, even in my past as a as a person who was addicted, in terrible trouble financially, you know,
in prison, you know, all that sort of stuff. You know, the lessons from all of that are still being realized and and and appreciated and discovered now, you know, twenty four years down the track, I'm still discovering more and more and more and that and and I'm able to use some of the traits that I thought I was
a waste of space back then, and I wasn't. But but some of those, you know, some of that character that was locked inside of me to help get me through those desperate times in my life, have now become beautiful assets that I can draw on now and and and they matter, you know, they matter a lot because it helps me, I guess, navigate life and be true
to myself. Now. It's when i'm it's when i'm ignoring that stuff that I move off you know, I move off my being, off my center, and I start trying to be something else or someone else, and nothing works well when I do that, I just need to try and be me. And that's all good to say to someone, Hey, just be yourself, but what does that actually mean? Well, you need to know who you are first before you
can be yourself. And that's and I don't know another way of discovering that, to be honest, just for me personally, I don't know another way of discovering that unless I'm going through my own troubles and I discover who I am. And you know, boxing for instance, you know, if people don't if people listening don't know, I'm a boxer and I compete. And it's been quite a journey of that
very thing, discovering who I am. But it's not until I've been in difficult circumstances in the boxing ring and put under enormous pressure where yeah, I am in danger, I could get hurt that I've been able to discover who I am. I am, who am I really am? I like boxing reveals who you are, you know what? The reveals parts of my character? Am I going to you know, throw the dummy out of the cop? Am I going to crack the ships? Am I going to lose my ship. Am I going to stay controlled emotionally?
Am I going to withdraw? Or am I going to you know? Am I going to be able to act and strategize and work my way through a problem. So so this sort of stuff, you know, it's just it's greeting. I love this about the boxing. I love this about life, and I love this about my past that I'm able to discover who I am and have it revealed to me and then I can work on it. And sometimes what I see about me I don't like, I'm not
happy with. But that's okay too because when I see that, I can do something about it.
Yeah, one hundred percent, mate. I mean, if you never see anything about you that you don't like, you're a complete fucking narcissist.
That's a problem, you know, Like I think.
And for those who don't have not met in Inverted Commas Mick before. He has a very interesting background. A part of that involved time in prison. I should say times in prison, But like I reckon, if you can come out, I don't know, right, but I know you and I know and I've spoken in prisons, but I don't understand prison of course, anything the way that you
would and do. But it seems to me that if you can go into prison, survive for years in prison, and come out and you're not completely fucked up, that's my asterisk. But if you can come out somewhat intact and then genuinely go, not pretend, genuinely go, I actually want to live a good life and do good things, and I actually I don't want to be a crook anymore. I don't want a criminal behavior anymore. I want to
change my thinking, habits, lifestyle reality. I think that if you can get through prison and deal with the adversity and the discomfort and the uncertainty and the pain and the bullshit, that must be like a daily fucking thing hanging over your head for years, then stepping outside as long as you can self regulate and not use and not pick up and not drink. I mean, it definitely wouldn't be easier, but it must be fucking easier than prison.
It definitely is. It definitely is easier than prison. There there's no doubt about that. It's interesting though, you know, because like we sort of talk about prison and we say, you know, if you can get through that, you can get through anything. But it's not just the prison. That's what led up to prison, that's the whole life that
was before that that took a person there. Yes, prison's hard, Yes, it's it's shit, you know, and it's it's a real problem if you start to like prison, because then you're really cooked.
Right, But how many people start to like prison? I mean, I know there's no but I'd never thought of that till you said that, But I guess some people must be. So what's the word conditioned or institutionalized where there may be even more comfortable in there than out of there.
Yeah, one hundred percent. That happens quite often. And I mean, you know, let's face it, you go to prison, you've got a roof over your head, you've got three meals a day, and you've got people you know, so you know, so it can become very very comfortable, and people obviously become you know, it's shit madness as far as I'm concerned in prison, But people become very very comfortable in that.
And look, I can you know, I didn't become comfortable in prison like that, but I did become comfortable in institutions. So I did a lot of rehabs. I went to over thirty rehabs and detops as. By the time I was twenty five, I was in I'd been hospitalized a few times. I'd also done some psychiatric admissions. And it's crazy, you know. You know sometimes I can walk into it, even to a hospital now to go and visit someone, and there's some little stick part inside and me, he goes, oh,
I remember this, This is comfortable being in here. Wow, there's a sick little part that wouldn't mind doing a thing really yeah, great.
Wow, what's the attract or what's the Yeah, what's the subconscious attraction to doing a couple of weeks in hospital?
It's just just an escape, you know, like it's sort of it's the ultimate escape. There's no there's no requirement for any responsibility whatsoever. And as an addict, as all addicts are, we're escape artists. I want to take responsibility for anything, anything at all, so and we want to hit the escape button, whether that's through drinking, using drugs, hospitalization, legitimate, legitimately pull out of life with no consequences. That's the ultimate for an addict, you know.
And that's so interesting. I just wrote that down. Addicts are escape artists. I've known you. For a long time, I've never heard that, and I bet a bunch of our listeners went, oh, that's good. I like that.
Yeah, what what?
Okay? This is something I've never asked you. But obviously, addictions bad, destructive, we know all of that. But for you, what good or what? What's some thing positive that came out of addiction? Obviously the addiction itself is bad? But is there anything good that came out of it for you?
I see that everything good came out of it. For me. I mean I don't see yes. Of course, you know. What happened in my life was tragic and it was terrible, and I did really bad things, and I you know, and I've got very very hurt and lots of people were hurt. Of course, you know, I'm not I'd love to be able to change that, and I can't change it. So let's just put that out there. But that you know, I went through what I went through, and it's made me who I am today. How could I hate that?
I don't hate that. But it's only because I've been able to turn it around, you know, Like, the only reason I can say that is because I have turned my life around. I'm not that person anymore. It's helped me develop into the person that I'm meant to be, which is the person that doesn't do that shit anymore. I don't hurt people like that anymore. I don't hurt me.
Yeah, you know.
It's helped me. Ah, It's given me something to bring to the table in that it helps me help other people. My experiences that I went through are valuable experiences because now when I come across someone that's going through anything remotely similar to what I've been through, guess what, I've got the wisdom and the ability to help that person because not only have I been through what they've been through, but I've made it out and I've changed.
And sorry, sorry, gone, no, just I was just going to.
Say, and I can help them navigate their way through it.
Yeah. Yeah, And I love the way that you approach because I've heard you speak a lot about this, and we did a little bit of work together for a while in this space. Obviously you're the guru. I'm not, but I love the way that you like your approach and the way that you I don't know, whatever you call it counsel mentor work with people, it's it's the opposite of cookie cutter. Like when I hear you talking,
it doesn't seem like anyone's in a program. I mean they are, but it's like you're up the front, just banging on like the fucking buff ed that you are. And I think the fact that you come from that you look like you look. He looks like fucking the full on criminal everyone he was but he's not anymore. But he still looks like one. God bless him, heads toe in tats. But you know, because you look like a rough ed But what comes out of your mouth is not that Like what comes out of your mouth
is real life. His stories is a bit of wisdom, is a bit of swearing. I think that you know that, coupled with your you know, your your backstory, your life, I think that makes people who might not be receptive to, you know, the expert, the academic expert walking in. I think that makes you way more relatable. But also it probably makes them more receptive to the message because not even the message, the message is good, but because of who you are.
Yeah, it brings brings weight, and it brings clout, and it does with people that are going through problems. There could be any audience but yeah, when someone's actually I mean, I just find that inspiring from anybody, from anybody who's actually been through severe troubles in their life and then put their hand up and said, hey this and I've made some massive mistakes here. I need you know, I need help, And they ask the help and they turn
their life around. They genuinely turn their life around them. And that inspires me. That hooks me in straight away, and I guess people can consense that that's what's happened for me. Yeah, and I love that. And again that's about my pastor also playing a positive role in who I am today because it helps me connect with people really really quickly. It's funny how many people I work
with that are trying to recover from addiction. And some of the people that I talk with or that I try and help, they say to me, holy fuck, in one hour, I've learnt more from you and connected more from you than I have with my psychiatrist that I've been seeing for the last three years. Yeah, and it's
not once or twice. I hear here pretty much every week all the time, and it's because I've been there, but I've genuinely found a way out too, So it's sometimes, you know, sometimes there's people getting around that have found some recovery and that's good, and they might have a year or two years clean and sober, which is absolutely amazing,
it's fantastic, but they don't have the clout yet. They haven't been through significant troubles in their sobriety and had to navigate their way through it without hitting the escape button. Because remembering that adds where the kings and queens of the escape button, we're always looking for the eject the eject button or the eject hatch. We're always looking for it. It's just an inbuilt reaction and to go through, to
go through life. And I've been through all types of things in my life in my sobriety life, all types of troubles and good times, and I've found a way to navigate all of that. Take responsibility for myself. So cease being a victim. You know, once I got called, once I got called on a podcast. I can't remember who's a what and I wouldn't say anyway, but I got called an addiction survivor. Well, fuck me, I really vomited everywhere because I just cannot cop that term. I'm
not an addiction survivor. That me saying that says I'm a victim. I'm not a victim. I'm empowered. I took responsibility for something that was wrong within me. Okay, addiction is an illness, but I took responsibility for it and treated it. That's different to being I'm a survivor. I'm just lucky to No, I'm not. I admitted there was a problem, I got to help, and I saw it through and I still see it through.
Yeah, how many people get how many people get put in front of you or meet with you, potentially dragged thereby a loved one who they've got a problem that they won't admit they've or a problem.
Heaps Well over fifty percent of people get dragged in front of me. Yeah, in that way, but that's okay, because look, we've all got to start somewhere and maybe maybe you know in that moment that person isn't quite ready to completely admit complete defeat yet, but it's the beginning of it. It's got to start somewhere. And when someone is dragged in front of me, So fifty percent of people get dragged in front of me and you know they've it's kind of like, well, you know, they've
been cornered circumstance. There's not always a loved one or a parent. Sometimes life just corners us. And there's very few people that get up one day and go, oh, you know what, I might knit down to the local rehab and better myself and better the world.
Right.
That just doesn't fucking happen. People don't get up one day and go, I'm going to make some more positive life decisions. I'm going to kick this habit. Yeah, rubbish doesn't happen. People come see help when they're fucked, when their life has fucking blown up, and if they don't realize it's fucking blown up yet, mom and dad or the missus does yeh, Megan fuck? And so they get someone to come and sit in front of me, and then I, hopefully eloquently point out to them, Tiger, you're fucked. Yeah,
you likee A's fucked. People don't come to see help for addiction because everything's going good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, does it take. I mean, I've heard you talk before about but by the way, everyone, I'm moving forward with this chat with Mick today on the assumption that about seventy or eighty percent of you haven't met Mick, or if you have yet, if you haven't memorized everything he said the last chat. So if some of this is familiar, I apologize. But I many times I've heard you say, you know people or something like this. People have got to hit rock bottom, and so I
guess that's when people, you know. The thing about addiction to a point is when you're using and you're in the middle of it. Albeit from an overall perspective, it's diabolical, But in the moment, when you're actually using and high or drunk or whatever, it's fucking amazing right in the moment.
It can be although the latest stages of addiction, and that can be the later years. Yeah, it's not amazing even when you are. It's not working anymore. It's not doing right, right, doing what it's meant to be doing. But we're stuck in it. We're stuck.
Is that because your receptors downregulate and when you used to take X you get high. Now you take five X to get the same effect, and then you take is it? Why? Why is it not working? Is it because your body just doesn't respond the same or what is that?
It's a few different components. So one of the components is the dopamine. Your body can't your brain can't even artificially produce the amount of dopamine. That's quite because really, if we broke addiction down, and most people when they come to see me, they go, I'm an ice addict, or I'm an alcoholic, or I'm a gambler, or I'm a sex addict, I actually don't give a fuck, right because the act out or the substance is just a symptom what we're really addicted to, if you really want
to break it down, we're really addicted to dopamine. These substances are just a particular trigger that triggers the right amount of dopamine that releases all this dopamine in our brain, and it is so euphoric that it medicates our thinking. It stops our obsessive thinking, and it pushes down all our emotions and we become just absolutely caught in this moment.
So when you first start using drinking and you have your drug a choice, you get the dump of dopamine and all of a sudden, Oh my fucking god, everything's wonderful. I love everyone. It's like the guy's got the guy at the pub that's got family at home on a beautiful night, and I walk into the pub and have the first drink or have the first couple of pots, and next thing you know, oh my fucking god, I love this, so fuck going home. I'm going to go home to the missus. I'm going to stay here and
drink with this old bloke in the bar. And by the way, old bloke, I fucking love you. I'll go to fucking war with you, all right. Meanwhile, I've got a missus and kids at hand. I couldn't give a shit that are waiting for me because I'm in la la land, because dopamine has absolutely flooded my brain and I'm in bliss. None never wanted to end. So what happens is their brains can't continually produce that for decades upon decades, and so we keep drinking and using all
these substances and doing different things. It might be porn, it might be relationships, that might be whatever it is, doing all of these behaviors to try and get that dopamine hit, and it's just not doing the job anymore. It's not medicating our thinking, and it's not suppressing our emotions. Which that's scape. That's essentially what the escape button does gets us out of dealing with that or acknowledging that stuff.
And so, but also what happens in later years is that all of the consequences of our drinking, using, punting, whatever it might be, have all culminated over years, and we've been suppressed suppressing it for the years. So we end up with all this baggage, and the baggage piles up so high, and the dopamine level comes down so low that it won't medicate any of it, and it all starts to spill out the top, and that's when people start to get suicidal, homicidal, you know, other psychiatric issues.
So all of that stuff happens because of that, and it's a terrible place to be. And you know what, like treating addiction or helping somebody with addiction then stopping using, drinking, punting, whatever it is, that's wonderful. It has to happen, But that's not how you treat addiction. That doesn't fix the problem. All that does is place a person on the platform where we can address the problem. Because remember this one
crazy boy, addiction comes in people that doesn't come in bottles. Yeah, addiction comes in people, and you can put the bottle down, you can put everything down with the addiction still in the person. And if it's not treated, we're going to look for the escape button again. And what's the escape button? Anything that can make me escape line life, anything that can trigger that dopamine hit the right amount of dopamine that allows me to medicate everything again. And that's why
people move. They change their drug of choice. They can say, yeah, I was addicted to alcohol, but I'm good now, but I'm on the bonds every night, yeah right right, Or no, no, I've stopped drinking, but you know now I'm down the pokings and I don't drink, but I'll put your money in the pokies.
Yeah.
Or it just shifts and changes. So we call it swapping the wig for the bitch, all right, and we're just the bitch and shape shifts because the person's only looking at treating the symptom. They're only looking at treating the substance it's taking that that's not treating the problem.
I get a team. I'm just interrupting me and Mick because we were we were quite verbose for quite a while. So I've decided to separate this into part one and part two. We'll be back to my Bura with the rest of the conversation. I hope you're enjoying it.