I'll get a team. It's Craig Anthony Harper, it's you project, It's doctor Sam Casey. What's your middle name? Sam? I have this bad habit. What is it? Sherry Sherry, Doctor Sam Sherry Casey, Craig Anthony Harper, Sam Sherry Casey. Hi, Doc, How it's Thursday afternoon? Well, it's Thursday evening here in the Eastern States. It's afternoon where you are? How you? How's your week been so far? We're sliding towards the big fat red feller in the suit and the reindeer. It's only six days away?
How we six days away? And I have like a box of presents that have arrived from my kids and I haven't wrapped yet. So that's this weekend's plan is to wrap all the present.
So yeah, just for my audience who has not met you yet, because you've only been here once. So this is your this is your follow up appearance. Just tell my listeners just a quick revisit of who you are, what you do, your job, your PhD, and just a quick snapshot of you so they understand who they're listening to.
Yep. Great, Super hard to put into a sentence, right because it's multi faceted.
But I'm make stuff.
I'm a therapist wait to children families. For over eighteen years, I've created the play Prescription Methods, so wanting to teach parents and professionals how to use therapeutic play to solve common childhood issues and parenting stuff. And my PhD was in play therapy and psychology, so I'm really passionate about all things like therapy and psychology. And yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
Has it been Has it been really well received by people who are in the field who are kind of not exactly do what you do, but kind of adjacent, you know, working with kids therapy, like helping kids with mental health issues and socially shoes And how is it received by other people who don't do what you do but are in the space.
Yeah, good question. I feel like, you know, when I was doing my PhD, right, I was calling out a lot of like therapists fives and their own I guess stuff and how that comes into therapy. And it was obviously really controversial thing. And you know, one of my examiners, I think I mentioned this on my previous episode, that it was much of the top five percent and she said, you call out like the elephant in the room, the
stuff that no one wants to talk about. And I feel like that's kind of been my experience since doing my PhD and in the industry where a lot of the therapists, you know, do say that. To me, I'm not kind of talking about generic stuff, and I don't sound like other therapists. I'm talking about things that people feel really uncomfortable to talk about. But it's important stuff.
So I definitely feel like there is good, good stuff, and I also think it probably really does trigger people too, So yeah, it's either gonna love it.
Or hate it range generally of the kids that you work with.
So play therapy is really from three to twelve. But you know, my shift has really been on the parents with these age kids, because ultimately, that's what's going to make the most sustainable changes is when you give parents the insight into understanding their child more and being able to use all these strategies that I would use in the playroom in the therapy room at home.
H What's interesting about when you think about helping kid like therapy, right, So there's there's a therapeutic intent that is to help the kid in some way. What are I've got another point I want to make, but before I get to that, what are some of the mental health or behavioral or sociological issues that you deal with? Like, what are some of the typical problems. I don't know if that's the right word, but let's just go with that. Some issues that you deal with.
I think the main ones really are anxiety, so whether it's separation anxiety, or anxiety at school, which can come off as like perfectionism, or even kids not even wanting to try because they're so worried about getting it wrong, you know, school refusal, anger, which is a big one, especially for young boys. Self esteem issues. So really I feel like I categorize them in the internalizing presentations and
the externalizing. So externalizing is the stuff that we see that it's coming out to the aggression, the anger, you know, behavioral stuff, DeFi it's all of that outwardly, you know what parents would these disruptive behaviors. But then the internalizing stuff is the anxiety. It's the stuff that's really happening on the inside that really feels like it's shoved down. And then you know, children will have an outburst and parents like, where did that come from? Like they're not
normally like this, but it's obviously been bubbling away. So that's the anxiety stuff. Yeah, So I would say that that's the most common presentations.
And so I guess some of that outward stuff that you see is almost just the byproduct of the problem, not really the problem itself. It's like definitely the underlying stuff, which is the catal like, this is the issue. It's like, but now what you're seeing is little Johnny acting out, But you need to figure out what's underneath that to stop the acting out or to address that.
Yeah, And I try and explain that to parents when they're talking about say little Johnny, and they're like, all he does is head other people and he's you know, really like mean to everyone. And I'm like, so where that starts is Johnny being mean to himself, Like he's heading on the inside. And often there's that kind of critical self talk that's actually going in first. You know
that saying hurt people hurt people. So we really want to get to the underlying pain and to be able to empathize with that and to connect children with that. And a lot of the time, especially boys, they have some really critical self talk, like no one wants me around, I'm always doing bad things, no one likes me, you know, just really like really really struggling with that shame and being able to come back from you know, when they do that doesn't feel good.
Why do you think that's more boys? You say a lot of boys. What is that about?
I think? And this definitely, you know, is obviously prevalent in our society for men. But you know, parents, you know, there's obviously there's probably like biological reasons here too, but I think if we just talk about the sociological reasons, the expectations for boys and girls are very different. So parents parents their children differently. So when there's girls, there is a lot more talk around feelings and you know, understanding,
you know, when girls are struggling or they're upset. But for boys, it's like you'll be right, You're okay, like tough enoup. So there is definitely those differences in parenting, and I think this is why boys really struggle with being able to talk about their feelings. And I counsel a lot of men too, and yeah, that's something that
they also talk a lot about. You know, girls often have friends where they can cry to and you know, and have their feelings validated, and men don't have anyone that they can do that too, and when they do try and reach out, they kind of shut down, like, you'll.
Be right, Yeah, I think it's I mean, I hope it's getting better. We're definitely talking about that more. But yeah, And it's interesting because I don't think anybody's setting out to fuck up their kids, right, but the reality is that, I mean, you know, I've written this post on my Instagram, my current, but it's something like, when I was young, I thought that grown ups had their shit together, they understood everything, they knew everything, Da da da da da.
They basically had it all together. And then the second part is my hypothesis has since been amended, right. And it's funny because when you're little, well, when I was little, I'd look up to my mum and dad like they were perfect, They had all their shit together, they knew everything. Dad was the smartest guy, Mum was the best mum, every you know, whatever. And then you grow up and you see, you know, the curtain gets pulled back a little bit and you go, oh, no, they're just they're
fucked up as well. Like, it's not like everyone's got fucking issues. Mum and dad are just as fucked up as their kids, if not more fucked up. So you've kind of got you know, sometimes not all parents, of course, but you've got this person who's perhaps themselves, you know, mentally and or emotionally struggling, which is part of the human experience, and they can't even really help themselves sometimes
because understandably there's stuff going on. And then so it's very hard to be you know, Superman or super Dad when you're trying to fix yourself in inverted commas.
Definitely, And I think this is actually a good thing because, you know, so I've got a post on my Instagram and it's like the candy Hearts, and if you've seen that by Tommy Siegel, I think it is. And it's like one like the mom candy Heart's like I will not mess up my child, and the other one that other parents like in the same way my parents mess me up, and then the little child one. It's like a whole new kind of fucked up. And I think that that really relates to the reality, which is all
children have childhood conditioning. Like, like you said, we're all fucked up. You know, this is what's going to happen, like, this is the human conditioning. But what's I think what's really good to know is that it's actually good that children see us as human because what it does, So what happens in the previous generation, what's happened is that children have grown up with parents who try and be robotic and pretend to be perfect, right because they think
that they're actually protecting their kids. So children grow up and now they're adults and they're like, no, Mum was perfect. Dad was okay, it must have been me. It's because I was too much. It was because I was too sensitive, it was because I was too annoying, versus a child that grows up where they're like, no, Dad really struggled
with anger, and Mum, you know, was stressed. And when they actually have parents who admit to their own humanness, I guess in their own limitations, they're able to separate that and so then they realize, Okay, that's their stuff, what's mine? Yep? And I think that's what we really need to understand more of, and in fact, we need to stop trying to be perfect in front of children,
because they grow up thinking it's them problem. Then I was just having feelings because they saw their parents manage all the things with zero reaction.
What about the idea dr Sam of you know, let's say I'm a dad and I fuck up. You know, nothing horrendous, but I do you know, it's not my finest hour as a parent, and I apologize to my children. Is that a good idea? Parents apologizing to their children.
Oh, it's so good. That's a rupture and repair. So every relationship has ruptures, and like I said, the previous generation ignored that and denied that, like they just didn't talk about it right or they were like no, I'm fine, and they're like body languages saying that they're not. And so when we when we repair a rupture, we're first acknowledging that there is a rupture. So children actually go, I'm sensing this right, you know, like there was something
here that's disconnected us. And then a parent's owning their stuff, they're like, it wasn't you know you like, this is my stuff. I was stressed, so I was this and then it's like, well, what do we need to do
to reconnect? And that's amazing. It's actually showing children that there is a way to come back from when we, you know, have moments like that where we regret what we've done, we've said things we don't mean, and it gives them a bit of a blueprint, you know, that they can do that too, and then they won't going to the spiral of shame.
That's so good, so smart. I mean, it's kind of obvious, but we don't talk about it that much, like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm not hanging around observing parents doing a whole lot of parenting too much. But you see a lot of it anecdotally. I mean every morning, I'm in the cafe doing work and drinking coffee, and I get to the cafe early, and I see just lots of mums and dads and kids. And I'm not judging, but you just it's like, oh, you know, I live on a main street as well, and I just got
back from a walk now just a little. I just walked to one end and the other because it's undercover and it's super hot here. But I'm constantly seeing parents doing parenting and you know, some of it's brilliant, some of it's you know, maybe not so brilliant, but I think, and I'm not an expert at anything, but I'm definitely not at parenting. But I wonder if I was a parent, if I would have the self awareness and courage and humility to go, hey, this just happened. That was all me.
That's my fault, and you didn't do anything that was one hundred percent of me. So I'm sorry and moving forward, I'm going to do my very best not to do that again. Are you okay? Like that seems to me like a good idea.
Definitely because they feel like it. Like I said, it really models to them that you're taking own a ship firstly, but also that you've noticed that there is a disconnect and you're kind of making amends. But then I think it's that's the immediate thing right where we're repairing. But I think also taking responsibility. It looks like this is a recurring thing for me, I'm stressed. What do I need to do to take that stress off in my
life as a parent? Right So, being able to look at the patterns of going this is like what do I need? And I think a lot of parents don't do that. They just feel like they need to keep sacrificing their needs and go, go, go, And that's where that shame comes. And so when they have those moments, they just like I should know better. I need to go to a parenting class. No, you don't. You actually need to have space to get your needs met. Really
take off the loan. A lot of the time parents know what they need to do, it's just they're overloaded, they're overwhelmed, they're tired, they're hungry.
Did you see that that research that came out of unis A last year? It was about this time. I've spoken about this a few times. I apologize, but it's relevant to this conversation where they compared exercise as a treatment for anxiety with it was either anxiety or depressional. Both might have been both, but they used exercise as a treatment protocol compared with medication. And of course, you know what I'm going to say. So the exercise, the output,
the exercise outperformed, you know, the medication. And I'm thinking about, you know, like with children, how many children are medicated now for fucking everything? Right, I'm wondering, you know, So you said the core of a lot of what you deal with with kids is anxiety, which manifests in a range of ways and all the first cousins of anxiety. I guess that if you know, so what a medication does changes you know, brain chemistry, right, what does play
do changes brain chemistry? Like it's physiologically altering the child without the potential side effects of a drug.
Oh exactly. And I think even when you were saying actso plays that because it brings us into the present moment, and like you said, it's rewiring our brain. But also exercise, and I think that that's a huge tool for parents that we just don't talk about enough, especially for parents. I mean, whether you've got anxiety or not, becoming a parent is very anxiety provoking. You're so worried about messing
up your child. But if you didn't have anxiety, you know, you come away with having some anxiety about how you are showing up as a parent. So I think exercise is such an important way as stress relief. But also, like you said, I mean it performs better than antidepressants and anti anxiety medication. It's just not I don't think we talk about that as much as we should.
I would imagine also that like play with kids that requires them to focus on something, it means now they're not focusing on something negative or now they're not distracted with something negative, like this requires your attention, you know. It's like there's this old kind of kind of what is it. It's like a puzzle. It's like, so, Sam, I'm going to give you a million dollars if you don't think about the number seven for the next thirty seconds, right, Yeah,
And it's like, oh fuck, I don't think. Oh I just thought. I don't think about them. I just thought about it. Right, And so the answer, the answer to that puzzle is not to try to think about to not try to think about the number seven. It's to think about a cheeseburger. Like you just focus on something
different rather than try to not focus on a thing. Yes, you know, when I know when I'm feeling if which is not often, but if I'm sitting there and I start to feel a bit, I start to go down an emotional end or psychological rabbit hole that's not positive, I'm like, ah fuck. If I get up and I go and do something like that requires my energy and my attention and my focus and my brain to be drawn to a particular task or whatever. Now I'm out
of that thing, Like now I'm moving my body. I still haven't necessarily solved a problem, but I've just stopped ruminating by giving my attention to something healthier.
Yeah, and this is why I think play is such a good talk for parents. And you know, we talked about that repair. You know, for parents, they spend a lot of time in their mind in the past, so ruminating over past mistakes, how they handle things, how they wish they could have done it better, or in the future, which is all the worries of how maybe they've messed up their child or all these things that could go wrong.
And so when a child wants to play with you, that's an invitation to be in the present moment you are like and it's really hard to by the way, That's why a lot of parents are like I bought or you know, thinking about all the things that they need to do. But to actually be present with the child is really you being in that moment. And I think a lot of the times we think of mindfulness
as just quiet and calmness and yoga. No, mindfulness is also not running yourself down, not judging yourself, not thinking of West Kate scenarios, and actually being able to enjoy to be present, enjoy that moment for what it is, and be fully there. And I think that's why I play. It can be really triggering for parents, but I think it also can be really healing.
Yeah, I just want to circle back a little bit to what we were talking about the impact that we have on our kids. You know, when we you know, we have our own shit, right, we have our own issues. I literally talk to people about issues and behavior and psychology for a living, and I've still got all my own bullshit, right, Like knowing stuff doesn't necessarily fix you, does it.
It's like it doesn't unfortunately, Yeah, Like.
Do I still have self esteem issues a little bit? Do I still overthink a little bit? Do I still feel like a fraud a little bit? You know? It's like, so, you know, there's knowing something and then there's you know, benefiting from that or yeah, you know, being human for sure. But I'm thinking, you know, because we all have our own bullshit, which we'll call, you know, psychological or emotional
or behavioral issues. And you know, let's say I've got a self limiting belief that's somewhat irrational, and I believe A B and C, A B and C that's my irrational self limiting doesn't make sense, fucking up my own life belief Now, if I'm always living in a version of that self limiting paradigm, and I'm talking about that, and I'm expressing that my kids are witnessing that, there's a fair chance that's going to become their reality as well, I'm going to pass my I guess my long winded
point is, I'm going to pass on my own bullshit to my kids unless I become more aware around them.
Definitely, because if you think about it, if you're trying to be a perfect parent, then you will expect a perfect child. So you're right, and also knowing that we all have our own demons, but figuring out a way to continue to move towards your values and live in the way that you want amongst that so I think, Oh,
psychology professor gave me this just best analogy. While I was doing my PhD and I was getting to the end, and I was saying, to have done all this work, like internally, like I've going to therapy and you know, learn all the things, and yet I feel like it's getting harder the closer I get to this endpoint, and all is like you said, limiting beliefs came out and I'm getting in my own way and I'm like, what else can I do? I feel like I've overthought this
so much. And she was like, well, we've all got our own demons, and that's what you go to therapy for. You you solve one demon, another one pops up, you se one like this is just a never ending process. But what you kind of need to learn is learn how to coach yourself, lead yourself where you can get your demon, put it on the couch next to you and say you chill here. I'm going to go so like you're out of my way, chill here, I'm going
to keep doing the thing. And that's a really important skill to have to show children where yes, these things can be running our head and we can have these limiting beliefs, but how do we get out of our own way and how do we take responsibility for our lives? And the more that they see us do that, which has been great with our lives, taking courage right, talking about our values and moving towards that and really imperfect ways, the more they learn how to do that rather than
going and thoither all or nothing? And a lot of people do that. I need to solve all my ademons before I can do the thing. I need to have perfect conditions before I can do the thing, all the reasons why they can't do it, versus going I just need to learn how to get out of my own way.
Yeah, it makes complete sense. I reckon, if I was a dad, there's every chance my kid or kids would have had food issues because I had food issues, you know, And I thinking I've thought about that. I'm like, wow, like imagine because I was more with the ib skid all this stuff, you know, fat kid eating issues and like eating lots of food I didn't need, then hating my body and hating my self, and then you know,
becoming fucking a maniac about exercise. And you know, I wonder if and it took me, you know, I mean I owned multiple gym sam and I was still doing dumb shit to my own body like I was an ext size scientist. I'm working with the lead athletes, I
own multiple gyms. I'm like well known, I'm all this shit, and I'm still shoving food in my face when no one's looking at Not these days, but for a long time, you know, maybe till I was in my mid thirties, when I was well and truly educated and informed, but still fucking out of control.
I mean, yeah, and it's a journey, right, And even if you that's the problem, I think with a lot of these things, because parents are so worried about transferring that onto their child, they will see it. So, for example, you'd have a child, and then your child might I don't know, have a preference for one food, or you start to see some kind of contenting things and you'll go, wow, I've done it. It's protected, and you'll try and fix
it and make it perfect. And so if the issues weren't already there, they will be there because that's a lens that you have, right, which is I'm causing this, And every time your child has anything to do with food, you're inner story is I've caused this, I'm projecting I haven't got my shit together, versus going in some ways, we actually all have issues, you know, with our body image in some ways, so your child's not going to
be immune from that. You're still struggling with that. You can use that experience as empathy in going, I don't need to fix this for my child, but I can share my own journey. I can share that I also haven't figured it out and I'm still learning things, and I'm experimenting with what works for my body, and I fall off the track and then I get back on it. And that's a very compassionate, curious way to approach that versus that shame based which is I need to get
it right. I don't want to stuff up my child, so I think they should. Yeah, a lot of parents can really look at it into different ways, which is, I don't want to project versus this can actually give me empathy. So if I've got anxiety, my child's got it, Or if I've got body issusanes and my child's got it, I'm going to have this empathy knowing I know what it's like to have this struggle when it's not going to be just fixed straight away. So let's be more kind to ourselves while we do that work.
Is it tough for you? I was thinking about this last time we spoke, but I forgot to ask, like, is it tough for you? In twenty twenty four, twenty five, almost twenty five? When you've got to I mean, you've you've got to be politically correct of course you got to be enlightened and all of these things, which I'm on board. But boys and girls aren't the same biologically
and sociologically. And we know that girls mature, generally speaking, quicker, their brains develop quicker, you know, their prefrontal cortex develops or is kind of set earlier than men. And you know there are these how do you navigate and negotiate these differences without getting in trouble? Like because I feel like it's you know, you can't go, oh, boys are this and girls are that. I feel like that's a slippery slope.
It very much is. And I think you know, everyone's like ready to like balance me, like what you said. But I think to even go more than that, which is even within girls, everyone's got different experiences. Every girl's different, and same with boys. So I think, you know, we need to just just know that every human is unique based on their experiences and what's going on for them
and their contents and their environment. And I yeah, the more that we can use research to infem ust but actually really connect with the child in front of us and what they're showing us, I think that's probably the best way to go.
But I mean we know we're not going to see girls out on you know, preppies and grade ones out on the playground wrestling the girls just you know, wrestling and you know, maybe some but yeah, I guess I get I don't what I'm asking. I just feel like that's I would struggle with that. I just think, oh, I'd get myself in trouble because I'd probably say something that people go oh, oh so hard these days.
And the thing is, really, there's not anything you can say that won't get someone to have an opinion about it, right, You say something and everyone's like, well, it could be the other way, Like there's always going to be different in opinions. So I think, yeah, it's so important to keep that in mind too.
You spoke before about you having a therapist for a period of time and you're doing therapy. What does that feel? Free to answer and not answer this or open the door as wide or as narrow as you want, but can you share with us what were some of the stuff without revealing you know you deep as darkest, But like, I love it when somebody like you who is you know, a therapist who's got a doctorate, who's smart, who works with people you go. Yeah, by the way, I'm a
little bit fucked up myself, Like what is right? You know, I'm still dealing with shit because I'm human, you know, Yes, so I've.
Had different experiences, So what fairs brought me to therapy? Going to be honest, I had to do it to become a I should play therapist, so we have to undertake it was like fifty hours of personal therapy. So I was in therapy for one hour a week for about a year. And because it's not saying its force, but because there was obviously a reason to it, I was like, Okay, I'm going to really be open to this experience, do do the inner child work that I
need to. And that was great. But what was really good is when I came to therapy by myself, and that's when I became a mum, and I was like, let me, you know, as my asmums do, let me try and deal with my own my own shit. I said that I don't protected onto my child, and this is what's coming up for me. And you know, it did take me a few goes to find the right kind of therapist and one that was really honest. You know, I didn't want a therapist that would just tell me
what I want to hear. I'm like, please, like, call me out of my blind spots here, What am I missing? What am I So? I think it was really good to have that experience as I entered parenthood. But then I used it for a while when I felt like I needed it to talk things through or to again get out of my own head a bit and about
stuff back. And what was awesome about it was I had a therapist that was really good at actually uncovering my again really connection to the child, but uncovering my unmet needs you know as a child, or my experiences as a child and how that's impacting me as an adult. And so it gave me this deeper understanding of myself. But it also showed me where I needed to take more responsibility for my life. And I think that's really
the key to it. I think we can come to therapy to maybe get validated or to try and talk about you know, what horrible situation you know other people are aware in and how stressful all the external stuff is. But if you come to therapy with this, I really want to understand more of myself, like the good, the bad, the all the parts and then where I can actually make changes. That's the key to it, and that's what I did. I think more so in the self initiated,
you know, being a parent. Part of the therapy is when I was so committed in between the sessions to do the work and to come back with this is what, this is, what didn't this is what I was trialing, and then continue to work from there, and so I really do believe. Again, so people come to therapy and they think therapists have the answers. I didn't come to therapy like that. I came to therapy going I know
that this is my life. I'm the expect in my life, and they're here to maybe be a mirror to show me things, to help me reflect onto things. But I have to do the work outside therapy and nothing's going to change.
I feel like therapists, personal trainers, exercise physiologists, life coaches. I don't really like putting them in that. But you know, there's a whole group of people that, not so much doctors because it's generally in and out for twelve minutes or something, but people who work with people one on one for an hour or forty five minutes on a regular basis. It's like, you know, there are great therapists and terrible ones. There are great trainers and terrible ones.
There are great dietitians and terrible ones, and good bricklayers and bad ones. You know, it's like that. You know, my background is owning gyms right and PT centers specifically, and like what I what I would have thought going into that, which is like, well, the most qualified, the most knowledgeable, the most skilled, they will be the most successful, And it just was almost never the case. I'm like, oh, like,
some of my trainers had the most basic quality. I mean literally I had everything from PhD qualified people down to certificate three and four right and everyone in between. But probably at least half my trainers were a fitness industry qualified kind of fundamental quals right three and four cert but without doubt the probably the best five trainers I had, and I could qualify best. But just in terms of all round performance, quiet retention didn't injure people.
People may good progress, they got good results, they loved the experience, they said positive things. These particular trainers had very very little drop off. They were all just awesome humans, Like they were all just funny, good people, good personalities. They cared. I mean, it's so basic, right, And they were just gave a fuck about the people they worked with, and they were consistent and they were good. And you know,
I've said this. I don't think I said this to you, but I've said this a bunch of times over the years. But in all the years that I worked as a trainer and as a gym owner and as a high performance coach with athletes and teams and all those things, in all those years, I got asked once what my qualification was? Once, Wow, what is your qualification? And it was only a lady who was She only wanted to know, not because she was checking up on me or doubting me,
but she wanted to do what I did. She's like, you know, and so not that we shouldn't be qualified or knowledgeable or skilled. Of course, we're not saying that all of those things are you know, imperative. But like if you've got a PhD in psychology, but you sit down with people and they don't enjoy being around you, well good luck.
Oh exactly if you're like judging them and you're like criticizing them in your mind, and you know, you're you're you know, not really present with them, and you're assessing them in a way that doesn't align right with what they're actually saying and what they're trying to in how they're trying to connect with you. Then you're right, you're not gonna You're not going to be someone that they'll
want to come back to. And I think it's a really good point of what you said, like just generally caring about their lives and wanting to support them, and you've even see that in your industry. I think it then just shows how relatable it is, right.
Like this is, this is so fundamental. It seems like, oh, that couldn't possibly work. I used to say too, And I would say to any trainer listening, any professional listening, especially you know people who do what you and I do, right, which is like one on one stuff, like apart from all the other factors and variables, do they want to come back? Like? Do they like especially when you're a trainer and you see someone three times a week? Right?
Yeah?
I trained one lady who definitely didn't need me to train her after the first year, but I trained her sixteen years, like sixteen years, three four five days, a week right, and she didn't need me, but she just would. She could afford it. She was wealthy, so it wasn't an issue. She went, I know I could train by myself, but I don't want to. I just get better results. I enjoy it more. I'm more consistent for these reasons. And if you will train me I want, I'm like great.
And you know I ask bosses Sam when I go and I do corporate stuff or I'm consulting, or I'm speaking, or I'm kind of problem solving or doing team building stuff or you know, cultural or communication stuff, I ask the boss him or her, whoever that is. I go, do your staff like being here? Is this a place that they want to come to and that they don't even think about this? I go, is this an environment and a culture that your people get out of bed
and look forward to coming to this place? And if the answer to that is no, that's where you need to start.
Definitely. That's such an important question that I think a lot of leaders would not ask. And I mean for you, though, do you think the reason why you've been so successful, especially in that industry, is because you've had your own personal journey with exercise?
I think yes, I think like I have a hundred percent yeah. And so when I talk about whatever obesity or body dysmorphia or fucking self loathing or I'm not talking from a research perspective. I'm talking about experientially. I go, I know, I know what it's like to hate how you look. I know what it's like to get on the scales and be depressed. I know what it's like to look in the mirror and feel sad. I know what it's like to be picked last for a team
because you're fat. I know, I know, right, And there's no self pity in this. But that's my experience. And so you know, I have a soft soft spot for people who struggle with all of.
It, which is what you see them, right, like you actually see them because imagine if you didn't have that, you could see how you could have a trainer, right that's never had that struggle. And they may again not intentionally, but be like, it's not that hard, like and it's and when they say it's different because it's that way you've always had that, But knowing your struggles, you're like, no, this is what the way that you would kind of speak that out would be so different.
Yeah, it just dawned on me as you were talking. It's like, I, this is going to sound bad, but it's like people that don't have great genetics that really struggle to be in shape that you know, it's like they're my people. It's like that is audious people right now.
I've worked with lots of elite athletes, national international athletes, Olympians, all that, and I can work with them, and I'm quite a good conditioning coach and all of that, XI scientists, but I can do all that, but I kind of feel in that environment or I have a capacity to feel like I don't belong because I was not a good athlete. I was not gifted genetically, I didn't have
great sporting talent. And even though I can do that job and I can be a good coach and I can help people get better in that environment as well, but it's funny when I'm back talking to someone who just struggles with self esteem and self worth and body image and not very great genetics, and you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm in my natural habitat. This is where I belong.
Yeah, You're like, you speak my language.
I'm like I get it. I get it, you know, I just I just want to give them a you know, if not a literal hugger, you know, a virtual hug. So so if we're like from a just back quickly to the parenting thing and the kids thing. It's like, is there this is a very broad question, But how do I know if I'm doing a good job? Like what's the data telling me? And it's you know, not not to be preoccupied with that, but it's like, well, clearly, if I'm a parent, I want to be a good parent.
If I'm a good parent, what's happening? How do I know? And I guess conversely, not if I'm a shit parent, but if I need to maybe work on stuff, you know, how do I know.
What you define is good?
Well, I don't know. You I mean, like, do we need to like do we need to think about I mean, we don't want to overthink shit because we don't want to complicate shit. But at the same time, want it or not, like it or not. You're shaping this human like this you you're programming and training this human. And you're training this little human when they are the most malleable and they are becoming a version of you, like it or not. Yeah, yeah, so how do I Yeah, this.
Is hard to spit though. If becauds, you're right, you know, the parent in ch our relationship. I mean they say it's one of the most influential obviously relationship, right, it's setting the foundations for all the other relationships. The attachment, it's so so important. But at the same time, it's not the only input in their lives. You know, children go to school, right, They're getting influenced by other people,
other teachers, other kids. So I think when we define good parenting, what we have to really kind of get to what is our definition of good Because if it's a good a good parenting is having a child that's happy all the time. Then when your child is sad, you're going to feel like you're failing. When your child is angry, you're gonna feel like you're failing. And so then you're not actually being present with them what they need to be present with, which is actually being able
to experience life fully. And so I think that, yeah, really getting to what is good versus Yeah, how do we I guess focus on what we can which is our relationship with our child, and what is the relationship it's a connection, it's the emotional connection. So I think really being able to go back and do that inner work so that you are emotionally connected to yourself and you're getting your emotional needs met and then going how am I showing up in this relationship with my child?
And so research you know, I always thought it was like if you most of the time, if you're you know, responding to your child, great, then you're good. But research shows, especially with secure attachment. So they had the Safeless Security training and in that training, evidence based program and they teach you that only three percent of the time if you're responding to your child's needs, and that is what
you know can lead to a secure attachment. So I think it's yeah important when we talk about those emotional needs. It's feeling seen, head validated, accepted, and understood for who they are. And I think play provides this amazing space for that because it's got these conditions where we can
create that therapeutic environment. But also they're not overly worrying about constantly are we doing the right thing and did we respond in the right way twenty four seven, because that can actually cause other issues that can cause a child that's struggling with anxiety and perfectionism because everything has to be perfect. So I think moving away from good versus maybe living a meaningful life, how do we help children actually be really connected to themselves in the world.
How do we help our children live out values? What are our values? So I think that's probably more of a focal point is to yeah, be more aligned and being able to actually live that out with our kids.
So every morning, as I said to you before, I go and sit in this cafe and there's a dude who comes in. His name is James will I'll give a shout out to James. Used to play footy for sin Kilda. He was a gun. Anyway, it's got the most gorgeous little girl called Rosie who for some reason, Rosie has taken a shine to Uncle Harps. And one day he was just anyway, he was sitting to one side, and she just walked over to me and put up her arms and I went okay, So then she just
sat with me. Anyway, Now every time she comes in, she sits like on my lap and I get my phone. This is probably bad, but she sits on my lap and so she's she's got her little arms on the table. I've got my arms on the table. I'll get my phone out and I will put on like a Bluey cartoon or a clip from Blueie. Right, I'm all over it anyway, Louie. Yeah. Right. So the other day she comes in and she because she knows what she wants. She just wants to come and sit with me and
fuck around on the phone. And she'll pick up the salt shaker and hand it to me, and then the pepper shaker and hand it to me, and then it's this whole thing. But I was, I was. I don't know how old she's I shouldn't know, but I feel like she's no more than eight months, so she's little, right, But she just she gets my phone and she just
she knows how to use that phone. Yeah, she's like finding stuff and scrolling and I mean she's not typing in things, of course, yes, but to an extent she can navigate her way around that phone, which and I mean, I don't want to have this, Oh, screens are killing our kids and all that, because it's been so talked about. But when you talk about play therapy, yeah, does that
involve that kind of play? Does that involve kids? Playing computer games or is this not really in the context of what you do?
So in traditional obviously play therapy, you know, we don't have that. But I think what I'm and what a lot of play therapist society to do, is to really get these skills to be more applicable to this day and not just this day and age, but to other
activities as well. So, yeah, there are principles that you can still use in the online world or in the in the gaming I mean, there's lots of therapy sort of even combined like minecraft and therapy, you know, and kind of been really creative in the ways that they're joining the technology stuff into it. So I think, yes, if we can be more flexible and adaptable, then we can still use the therapeutic principles in the online space. And if anything, it opens up so much more draws too. Yeah.
Yeah, my last one before we let you go, and I know you're young, you're young, you're a puppet, but do you think there's more anxiety in kids? You know, let's just say your group three, did you say three to twelve? Is your group two to twelve?
Yep?
Do you think there's more anxiety in that group? Now? Do you think there's more anxiety in that group now than say, twenty years ago when you were a kid, or do you think we just have far more awareness about, you know, the anxiety that is there.
Maybe a bit of both, really, I mean, I think that there is a lot more anxiety and even for parents as well kids, there's so much more pressure, like to be all the things to their child. And you know that that I'm influencing, you know, influencing this child. I'm raising a child. This is like a huge responsibility. You can get them to be very anxious, and like I said, a child, I mean, a parent trying to be perfect is going to raise a child that's trying
to be perfect. So there's one part to it. But yeah, you're also right, a lot of things that parents won't even know in the previous generation was anxiety is now talked about. We're putting names to it, we're talking about those feelings in our bodies that you know are anxiety driven. We're talking about all these other things to do with anxiety. So yeah, I think it's a bit of both.
I'd say, yeah, yeah, I also I wonder what you know, it's like we're spoken about this to a little bit. It's a bit of a dead horse, but I just like your take on it. I mean, like, we want our kids to be able to adapt and be flexible and to be able to socialize in different contexts, and we want them to be you know, within reason. We want them to be resilient and all of those things, but at the same time, we want to protect them
from everything like this exactly, this dichotomy. It's like, I want my kids to be strong, but I don't ever want them to do anything hard.
Yes, exactly, and yeah, I want them to predict them from all the things, but then I want them to build like he said, this resilience. But also if you really look at a lot of parents' descriptions of what they want their child to be, it's like, well, how far away away from this idea I allows version of a human because you'll see you'll see parents put their child in three four, five extra reproductivities, but they don't
have a hobby themselves. And so it's so easy for us as adults to sit on the sidelines and be like you go do this and like, you know, be this like perfectly well balanced human, while we're like not even on that path or not even seeing the benefit of that. So I think, yeah, we're having really unrealistic expectations of what a human can be like because it is our child and we're like, I want all the
best things for them. But then yeah, that's a lot of pressure, a lot of pres if they're not on the journey.
Tue, what's on the what's in the agenda for Christmas? For the good doc and the kids?
Wow, I live in a small town, so we'll be having you know, a nice summers the Christmas, you know, with in the pool and lots of food. Of course, that would be really great.
What about you did you did you say, Margaret River? No, oh wow, that's north That's wow.
S Appilbra Christmas for me this year.
Get that hot up there. I'm just going to see my folks. My folks, understandably, are pretty old and you get to a point where you don't know how many Christmas is you're going to have left with those people, you know, so God bless their little socks. So I'm heading up to see Ron and Mary and yeah, we'll see how that goes. So it's you know, it won't
it won't be anything exciting, but it's nice. I just like spending time with them, Like it's funny the older that I become and the older of course that they become. You know, you think a little bit like that. You think, I wonder how many they live two hours away from me? I wonder how many more times I'll drive up this road. You know, I don't want to have any.
More Christmases that you have with them and all of that.
So yeah, Hey, if people want to find you, follow you, connect with you, see you on social media, or shoot you an email or something like that, how does that happen?
So my Instagram is just my name Dr Sam Casey, or they can find me on my website which is www dot dotor SAMKC dot com probably my two main ones. So yeah, they'll be able to contact me to say.
That Sam, your ace. I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on again. We'll say goodbye once we sign off. We'll do that off air, but for the moment, thanks for being on the You project again.
Thanks so much for having me again.