Good a team. Welcome to another installment the View Project. To taps his echo chamber, It's Melissa, Melissa, Hello, how are you? Yeah good? I feel like I've done this very recently. Why would that deja vou vibe be happening? Do you think? Because your microphone was doing something really strange and so we thought we might need to redo the intro quickly. So it makes sense that is true. Sorry for interrupting there as I do so we've already done.
The interview with Farmer Dave. He was bloody amazing. I have a big man crush on him, and I do have that capacity as we all know. But he is so fucking great. I thought he'd be really good, but it starts off good and it gets better and better. I love this episode he's doing, like his backstory, his story with his story growing up on farms. I don't want to ruin it, but there are so many good
things in here. The work that he's done with animals, he's love for animals, and now the incredible work that he's doing with kids between twelve and seventeen who are really struggling, very very hands on at the cold face. Yeah, beautiful conversation beautiful dude doing awesome work. I'm pretty sure you will be inspired by him. Melissa, can I can I go now?
Am I? A? We?
A we clear? We will start the show now, all right, let's start the show. Farmer Dave, Melissa and well, what's his actual name, Dave Graham? I think, okay, farmer Dave. Now, I don't even know where to start. I'm thinking, I'm looking at all your stuff. I'm like, that's quite the fucking bio. It's not your typical LinkedIn bio. I'll give you that. Yeah, why don't you give us your bio?
Why don't you let me get in the jacuzzi? And why don't you give us whatever you want wherever you want to go, give us the David Graham slash Farmer Dave bio that you reckon the world might be interested, I mean, that'd be interested in all of it. But just where.
I go, where I'm at right now is helping kids get back on track. And you know, sometimes it's dealing with five kids in a day, sometimes dealing with twenty kids in a day, and whatever they need, I'm there for them. And I think my bios kind of got me in that stead. I grew up, like so many Australians of the older generations, on a station about forteen hours northwest of Sydney, about six hours west of Brisbane,
near near a town called Gundawindy. So not your typical childhood, but the most splendid childhood of just no town for one hundred kilometers and just growing up with your dogs, your horses, and that was my job, is just looking after all of them for a fairly large cattle and cropping station about one hundred thousand acres, And was youngest of eleven kids, so I was kind of a forgotten one because by the time you get to eleven, you
kind of over it when it comes to parenting. So my parents were quite elderly and kind of over it and tired.
Quite elderly and tired by the time they got to you exactly.
Yeah, so Dad, every time he bought another farm, he'd have another kid to make sure that he's got slave labor in the future to run it. So yeah, it
was an awesome childhood. And I was so fortunate to be able to learn from your old stockmen and these guys that have been connected to the land for their whole lives and their whole existence and really built me ready for a really well rounded education in the bush, and then went off to boarding school, like you all have to do, and that was a real sledge hammer to the face because my first boarding school was co ed. But then I went to another one which was an
international school and which was fantas but didn't quite have the education that my dad wanted. He wanted a military type education for me because he thought that I was learning too much, and so he sent me to an all boys grammar school and that was a real sledgehammer. And you know, like when you when you're a gay person, you're the last person to know, and I was definitely the last person to know and found out from a
lot of my peers that I was gay. And it was a very brutal, brutal and unkind period of my life. But I survived it. I don't know how, but yeah, there was way too many times where I didn't want to keep living. So I really have that understanding now with the kids that I work with, knowing exactly what it's like when you just don't want to be alive anymore. But luckily I had dogs, and I had the bush,
and I got through and then when Jack Ruing. The problem is when you're working for your old man's company, the lot of the shopmen take out their frustrations on the boss's sons. So it was from the frying pan to the fire when it came to Jack Ruing. But I did something I shouldn't have done, and that is flogged.
Flogged a car, and with my mates we hened off to Sydney and I came across a few modeling scouts and they all suggested that I had what it took to do modeling, and then I ended up saying yes to the next one that came along, and then probably about a week later, after returning the car, I was modeling the catwalks of Europe, and suddenly my whole world had changed, you know, from going from a station life to a boarding school life, and then I was opened
up to this whole new world that I didn't know existed. And I had a very masculine child and a very masculine boarding school experience, and then to be opened up to the world of fashion and meeting people from every part of the world. And that's what happens in modeling. You know, you've got people from Eastern Europe and the
Americas and a few Australians. But yeah, it really opened up my idea that there was a lot more to learn and a lot of what I've been told and led to believe in the one party state of Southern Queensland probably wasn't true. And I very much so went on a journey after that. I traveled to about eighty countries backpacking and just wanted to really find out what the lives of other people were, because it was quite different to what I've been told as a kid how
the world was. You know, it was always a them and us type childhood. But that kind of really exploded my ability to know that, you know, you've always got to do something, to know something.
That's amazing, mate. That is such a bloody incredible story. And isn't it funny how like when you grow up in like you grew up in a very specific environment with you know, like not too many people grew up in that environment on a hundred thousand acre farm with ten siblings, and who also, how old were you when you realized you were gay?
Oh? Look when I accepted it early twenties.
Yeah, and then but all of that right, and but also the programming with the education and your dad's expectation and I'm on something more military and these are the rules, and you follow our rules, and this is the way the world is, David. This is the way the world is, David, and my way on the Highway. And then you like in fucking hot Disneyland on the other side of the world. It must have been like landing on Mars, mate.
It was. It was exactly that. It was like landing on Mars. And because I had such a strong Western Queensland accent, people thought that I was from some European country that they'd never heard of. Like people didn't know that I spoke English. And it was really interesting when you know, people speak around you about you, and it was it was just it was very much like being
an alien. And you know, I had no concept of that fashion world that for me, you know, growing up and as you suggest, you know, my father was all about everything is real. You know, you're not worth anything unless you create something or you produce food. And then here I was at the opposite end of the spectrum, people creating fashion, which was very not what my dad would have said.
Was over. I can imagine you going Dad I'm in France and I'm putting on these really fucking expensive clothes that I don't own, and I'm whilsting down this fucking thing, doing a couple of pirouettes, waving to a few people and getting a shitload of money. I bet that went down like a coll bucket dispute.
Well, funnily enough, when I told him what I was doing, he wouldn't shake my hand, and he actually spat on me. And he was so disgusted that I was going to actually do that. And he didn't spit on me in the way that you know modern people do it was he absolutely did it to say that he thought what I was doing was was was wrong, and that that, yeah, that he was he was absolutely disgusted.
By I'm sorry to hear that. What what do you think, like now you're a grown up having a conversation, you look back and like you were a you know, a young man, what do you think that was about for your dad.
Losing his best slave laborer. I think it was one big part of it, because you know I was I was seven day a weeker. You would, you know, camp in the tractor if we were cultivating or for harvesting, or planting. You know, you would do that for three four and sometimes up to six weeks, depending on how many acres we were doing. Or if I was out on a on a driving job, you know, would be three months on the back of horse horses. So he was losing, losing, I think, one of his best workers.
But the other thing was he he's just generation, you know, the pre war, pre World War two generation where everything had to be real, and you know, he grew up in a time of the depression and then of course lived through the war when there was very very few men working, so children had to work, and of course women had to work where they hadn't done in generations before.
So anything that was so perfluous he thought, And to a degree still I suppose thinks that it's just it's wrong and it's the devil's work.
I suppose, Wow, I'm going to say welcome back, even though you technically didn't know I was going everyone I was because Mlesa sent me a message, which she never does, little across my screens said your microphone's dogshit or something to that effect. Ah, And whre nothing if not super professional, Dave. As you can imagine, Farmer Dave's nothing but impressed so far. Mate,
how did that? Just getting back to your dad, because you work with kids, and I guess for some kids you're a bit of a father figure or at least a mentor teacher role model, someone they look up to and also tell me to get rooted and not talk about anything you don't want to. But how did that end up with your dad as you got older that relationship?
Well, I think, like right now, being vulnerable is really important. That's what I teach the kids is, you know, we've got to share us stories, got to share share what we're going through to be able to work through it. I've always had a very complicated relationship with my father. I think many people have complicated relationship with the father,
especially sons with their dads, I've found. But it gives me a real understanding when I'm working with kids who have been rejected by their parents, that at least I can understand where they're coming from, so I can give them my baggage, so that I can share the load of their baggage a little bit in their experiences. But yeah, I suppose where my father and I are now. Look, I was meant to take on the family station. As the youngest son in my family, that was my job.
And you know, he really kept me on a leash to come back. Whenever I did go away and do amazing things, he would always say, well, look, you know, you've got to get back and get serious about it. But then, funnily enough, before I turned forty he he said, look, you know, well you're not going to take on the farm.
And so it was a late in life kick in the guts that I suppose made me realize that I've got to be free of the expectations, whether he's putting them on me or I'm putting them on me from my dad and those family expectations that often you know, happen in countries like Pakistan or Nigeria, but you know, we in the rural parts of Australia still have those very intense family expectations. So being free of that was probably one of the greatest experiences of my life.
What's been for you in terms of you figuring out who you are as a bloke and as a dad? You're a dad? Do you have four kids or something that I read.
It's yeah, new babies.
Well, now, so like dad, partner, brother, you know, businessman teacher meant, like, where in the middle of all of that, where do you get your sense of self from, like your identity who you are? Or is that not something that you think about?
Oh look crazy. I think dropping the burden of ego was an amazing thing that I got to do quite some time ago, you know, because I had that big thing at such a young age, you know, nineteen twenty modeling all around the world and it's all about the way you look. I was able to shed that and because I was an extremely anxious person, you know, like I missed most of Grade twelve because I was hiding in the honey or hiding in the library, because I was so nervous to go into a classroom full of
other other people. You know. Modeling freed me from that anxiety, But then it also allowed me to be free of that burden that ego really gives us, you know, and especially men. You know, I don't know if it's a testosterone or what it is, but this ego just comes down on us and forces us to do things that we probably wouldn't do without Without that, so I was able to release myself from from ego and just do things because it's right, or because it needs to be
done as opposed to having that front. You know, when you work with teenage boys and even to a bigger extent, you know, the girls that I get to work with, you know, having that front is so so important. You know, it's all about making sure that you don't have any shame and avoiding things because of how everyone else thinks. So being able to get rid of all of those facades a very very long time time ago and to get to live my life without those facades, I think is really really important.
I reckon, there's about seventy percent of my audience leaning in, going mate, how did you do that? How did you get because I mean, yeah, how did you let go of ego? What is that? I kind of know what it means, but what does it mean for you? How did you do that? Was that a spiritual process? Was that a decision? Was that a self awareness moment in time? Did something happen? Tell us about that? Because that's a fucking great achievement.
Yeah. I suppose there's a few things there. One is being born, being born gay and then having all the facads and the protective mechanisms around you going through you know, an all boys boarding school, coming from a very very homophobic culture, being able to break down all of that and going, well, I actually want to live my life authentically. I want to be who I am and if people don't like that, well that's not my problem, that's their problem.
You know.
I can't change the color of my skin, I can't change my sexuality, but what I can change is people's opinions of me, just through living my life authentically and when there's so much you know, lying and deceit back when I was dealing with my sexuality, been free of that lying and being free of the deceit and being honest, I think was the first big breakthrough for me personally. Not everyone gets to go from straight to gay and
be very happy in both camps. But I was really, really fortunate to have been had that transition and that amount of self awareness that comes with it and having to break through such an extreme cultural barrier was pretty powerful. And you know, I also went on a show with three million people Watch Your Big Brother back in two thousand and six really say boom, this is me, this is who I am, and I'm with it. If you're not, well, I'm sorry, but it's not my issue. That's going to
be yours that you need to work through. But I'm going to live life who I am. I'm not a not a broken straight man. I'm a proud gay man. So that was really powerful to be able to say that at twenty six. And I suppose moving through that. You know, I've had many businesses that were extremely successful and they failed, but that getting up experience and know that getting back up and going all is not lost.
And I think you know, a Rhodesian teacher told me that when he was an immigrant, and obviously he had lost everything when he west left Roojija during the Bush War, which is obviously now Zimbabwe, but he, you know, he very much so said to me one day when I was hiding in the bathroom and he came down to try and find me, he just said, look, all's not
lost me, All's not lost. You have the ability from this moment in every other moment moving forward to choose how you want to be and if you want to stay in here you can, but just remember all is not lost. And that was a beautiful thing for that man to say to me.
It's almost like a metaphor. If you want to stay in this little room, this little isolated, disconnected no one to talk to room. You can, ye, you extrapolate that to the world and what you've done since. And also when you think about like being you, whoever you are, whatever, that means, being authentically you in the world, whether it's Melissa, you, me, or anyone listening to this. But how fucking exhausting is it pretending to be someone you're not?
Can you imagine George Santos like the array of lies that he has around, all of those personas that he has, and I think for him, you know, again, growing up, gaining a conservative culture that can do that to you. You have to put all these masks on, and you have to put all this ego in front of you. Hard to walk back from that. But when you can turf all that to the side and go, you know, when someone says how are you feeling today, and you can actually be honest, But then do you be genuinely
interested in how they're feeling? I think there's a way to break through all of that burden of ego that we all carry.
And I bet, I mean, I'm sure there are a few little speed humbs here and there, because you're normal in life and the world's not perfect. But I bet for the most part you went, why the fuck didn't I do that five years ago?
Oh? Look, I checked myself all the time, and I encourage the young people that I work with to. You know, we check ourselves all the time. Whenever we're going off on tangents where we know that we're not being real or not being grounded, well, then yeah, you've got to check yourself continuously. It's a daily process.
It's funny with dudes too, I mean everyone, but with men too, because of the ego thing and the testosterone thing, and the cultural and the programming. Like what your dad expected of you? How many sisters did you have?
By the way, yeah five brothers now, no disrespect, but I bet dad wasn't expecting any of the girls to take over the farm, right, No, he was stereotypically, But so the.
Girls are in the house and the boys are out in the fields, except if there was stick picking to do, then everyone was out picking sticks. Right.
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that like we we kind of get intentionally or not for better or worse, often worse, like shoved into these stereotypical you know, rolls or sluts, and then you've kind of like you you are a version of your parents, or a version of your friends or peers, or your culture or your religion or the programming from the media or social media these days. And then in the middle of that, it's try. It's hard to and also daved because I guess everyone wants
to belong to something, right. And then if all of a sudden you go, hey, everyone, I've been pretending I'm actually gay, or I actually fucking hate bowling everyone on Friday nights, I fucking hate it. Also I'm a vegetarian or my carnival friends.
Sorry fucking I don't you know whatever, And there's that it takes a lot of courage to go I actually, you know, I still want to be loved and needed and wanted and valued and connected, but I'm not in that group.
I'm not in the heterosexual group. Sorry dudes, sorry whoever, I'm not like that.
And you don't have to change everyone around you, you know, Like, No, when I accepted myself as gay, I didn't want everyone around me to become gay. I think that's about ah.
I thought that's how it worked.
No, write that down, But you know, it's one of those things that when you accept the new you, you don't have to make everyone else change, you know that. The one thing that I've always noticed when people do go through these periods of being the new authentic self, they're like, well, everyone else needs to come on my journey with me. It's like no, no, no, you do your boom if you've become a vegan, not everyone around you needs to be a vegan as well. Like you,
just do you and and shine as yourself. You don't have to have you don't have to recreate your own tribe. You can find your new tribe. But there's nothing wrong with being a vegan with fifteen in your circle of friends, fifteen that are they're not vegan.
Yeah. And also, I mean this is we've spoken about this lately on the show, is just like what about having friends where whether it's politically or religiously or culturally or sociologically or philosophically, they think A and you think B. And you vote liberally and I vote labor And you've barracked for this team and I barrack for that team. And you know, I went I went and saw Avatar with one of my best mates, a couple of weeks ago, and he's gay and I'm not. And I said to
someone said, what are you doing like tonight? I said, I've got a date and they said who with? I said, Patrick, We're going to the Avatar And it kind of messed with them a bit. I go, one of is one of the best friends, Like, that's what We're going to see a film? Yeah, and they like almost like I could see him thinking what does that mean? Though, yes, dude, it means I'm hanging out with a friend, We're seeing a film. But like people like is that. I'm like, come on, come.
On, the human brain, we we just need to box things, you know. And it's it's the the you know, this huge brain that we have that that any woman has ever had a child knows exactly how big the brain is. But this huge brain that we have just needs to box things so we can move on. You know, there's so much information out there that the human brain is a box box, box box, so we can just focus
on what's what's important. But I think, you know, we had this thirty years of world Librettism and where everyone was free, and you know, the world's just gone forward in such giant leaps and you know, poverty has really gone by the wayside for the vast majority of the planet. So he's just had this this amazing awakening period. But then I think, now we're going back into the boxes.
And I think social media, which was meant to flourish ideas, is making people think smaller and going back into those comfortable tribes. And I think you need to be uncomfortable each day. And as you say, have friends that you can listen to or talk with. You don't have to agree with everyone, Like if you're in an echo chamber of your own thoughts, that's pretty scary to me. Like
that would be the most terrifying things to me. I want my friends to all be all be of different ILKs so that we're all challenging each other but also learning from each other.
Well, that's right, And if you happen to agree, cool, and if you don't, also cool. But us being friends is not conditional upon these five rules that we must or these values. But you just got to have a look at this little document before we become friends. It's just seven pages. Just get your lawyer to check it and just sign here, here, and here. It's like, that's not a friendship that's a arrangement, that's a strategic, something that doesn't sound anything like love or kindness or acceptance
or tolerance. Now, Melissa and I both dog lovers, and you'll make us look like complete amateurs. You love humans, you love helping humans, but you're a little bit partial to fucking I think I think animals are your favorite people. I'm not sure. Absolutely, Yeah, tell us about your favorite people.
Oh look, I've got Jimmy, Jimmy wandering around at my feet right now. Look, I think dogs can teach us so much because you know, they listen so much, and sometimes as humans, we just want to be heard, and especially teenagers, they just want to be heard. But look, I've been working with dogs since I was three years old,
and training dogs since I was five. And the communication that you can have without words, without the language that you're that you use each day, but just focusing on behavior and body movement and communicate through that, I think is something special because it tunes you in to a whole new level of communication. And that's why I love animals so much, regardless of the species, but definitely dogs, because you know, they were a human construct. We created them.
What fifteen thousand years ago to work with us and to be our best mates. And haven't they done a bloody good job on that front?
And isn't it bizarre? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm I'm no animalologist, clearly, but didn't didn't we start fifteen thousand years ago with a couple of wolves and just breeding, breeding, breeding, pick and choose, pick and choose, pick and choose the most docile and friendly or the least vicious, And we ended up with fucking.
Spoodles pretty much, pretty much, that's kind of happening.
Ended up with grodles, noodles, doodles, noodles, fucking spoodles, doodles.
Yeah, there's this amazing thing when docility on the alleyles creates colors and creates variation, and that's why dogs have variated so much. And again, you know, most of our domesticated species, when we choose docility or bitability, that ability for us to be able to manipulate them or keep them in a minotonized or a childlike state, we have
the amazing variation of color and all that. And you know, obviously we've proven that with silver foxes with studies done in Russia, and of course with rats and all sorts of things that human fanciers are being breeding over the last hundred years, so docility and variation comes, and we humans love variation. At the moment, the human seems to absolutely love anything that's got a bit of poodle in it.
What's that about?
Yeah? Yeah, I don't know. I think we all just are missing our teddies. And especially during the lockdown period when a million new dogs joined us th Elier, I think three quarters of those were oodles of some sscription because we all just needed our teddy from our childhood.
Again, that's so funny, that's maybe that's maybe it so you you, I don't know, was it I read? I can't remember off the top of my head, but like, was it nine or eight or nine or ten years ago? You opened basically Disneyland for dogs? Yeah, tell us about what was that and what was that about?
Yeah? So obviously working with dogs forever traveling the world, you know, you see the interactions of different peoples with their dogs, beating the Amazon a beat in Siberia or beating the Himalayas, and dogs are such an integral part to the human experience, and you know, dogs have gotten me through everything but it you know, minus twenty degrees in Mongolia in a tent. You know, if I didn't have three dogs under the reindeer pelts with me, I
would have absolutely frozen. But about ten years ago I was training dogs to do some search and rescue and china them how to jump out of planes, you know, on my person, and I had a terrible, terrible parachuting accident and was in a wheelchair for about a year and broken hands, broken everything. So prior to that period, I'd used force training, which is, you know, you compel
a dog to do something. A dog does something wrong, you growl at it, and I'm shamed to say it, but you know, training stock dogs, i'd use shop collars, I'd kick the kick dogs, throwing stones at dogs, because all about getting the job done, you know. I'd very much so had that mindset from my family and the culture that I grew up in. But when you're in
a wheelchair and your hands don't work. Look, my parents sent me a kelpie from the farm, and because I couldn't obviously be on the farm, I was too much of a burden, and so I was living in the city in my wheelchair and this dog, you know, if it did anything wrong, I couldn't do anything about it. But I could still flick at a treat. So I did what we call positive reinforcement quadrant learning, which is click and treat. You know, the dog does something you like,
you give it a treat. And I was got through my black dog and got through my severe depression of being someone that loves to do four thousand things at once and was completely in this series of casts and unable to do anything. But you know, I was able to get my dog to get my toothbrush, to open the door, to be able to go and get whatever it was that I needed the dog to do, even to grab my blanket to open up my bed so
I could jump in bed. And then when I got a little bit more mobile, she would have a little part would go to the shops and I would put all the shopping in it. She just did everything for me. And I realized that I absolutely owed my life to dogs, be it on the station, getting through the droughts, or doing all the droving, or as I say, up in
that frozen territories of Mongolia. And then at that period of time, through that terrible black dog period, So I wanted people to experience the absolute joy of dogs, but doing in more kinder, more so lines based way, but also be able to honor all the different breeds that we humans have created, from the keilpie with sheep herding, to the greyhound with racing, or the whippet with racing,
to all the water dogs. And so yeah, we built this Disneyland that had about twenty sports that people could do with their dogs, and also wanted them to understand that you don't have to incarcerate a dog if it hasn't worked for a family. You know, you think of the typical shelter back then was very much so a meter by two meters sell and like that's a like why if we made the wrong choice or whatever reason, a dog's going to a shelter, why are they in
a living condition like a jail. They've done nothing wrong. So we had a five acres of free range living for the dogs and they had pools, they had jungle gyms, they had absolutely everything, plus access to all the sports. So I take a lot of dogs from shelter, has allowed them to become a dog so that they didn't have those stereotypic enough they were self mutilating or if they were jumping against the cages, or if they were attacking people, because they just become stereotypic in that cell.
Often back then they would just put the dog down right because of behavioral problems. They couldn't rehime it. But they would come learn how to be a dog again, and then very quickly they would be rehomed back at the shelter. So it was a place where I think about fifteen thousand people from Sydney came to to learn or to have fun with their dogs. And that was really me giving back to dogs to say, hey, thanks for allowing me to live my life.
Wow, I have a good question, but there's a point. What color was the kelpie as.
You, black and tan with a big white chest.
So a black dog helped you get through the black dog?
Funny enough? Yeah, I never thought of that.
Yes, you're welcome, you can use that. Yeah about Rough Track, mate.
So Rough Track is a place where kids can come to get their lives back on track and make the most out of their lives. So kids come to us via the police. They come to us fire referrals from different care agencies, from schools, from families that just aren't coping, and it's really a place that we promise them three things that will keep them alife, that will keep them out of prison, and we'll give them skills for a secure future. And those skills come right down to the
simple basics how to deal with the stressful situation. And that strestful situation could be absolutely anything been spoken to by another person going to a job interview. So we do a lot on communication, a lot on anger management, a lot on dealing with anxiety, dealing with depression, and we do it all through a very unique way of being farm based. So they're touching the earth, they're growing crops, they're growing vegetables, they're working with dogs. Every single day.
We do a lot of dog work, so it's out walking your dogs, so learning about real relationships. You know, I've got a loose leash and your dog's on a loose leash. That says a lot about your ability in your relationships. And then I can talk to the kids in action, so you're not just sitting there having a conversation like a therapist does or a counselor, because often teenagers just don't like that situation. We're having conversations, which
a real world is a leash really tight? You know, what relationship do you have at the moment where you feel like you're being dragged along? And then the kid can open up and then soon enough, you know, we can have that dog on a loose lead, and they feel so much better, and it's like, hey, you know, maybe you could try this or try that, or what
do you reckon? You could try and then you're guiding the kid into a conversation where they can communicate more effectively but also acknowledge how they can improve their relationships just by simply walking a dog on a leash, you know. And I'll have ten, fifteen or twenty kids out walking dogs and I'll just jump from one to the next,
and then we can reflect on what's going on. Then we all meet in the bush and which our bush classroom, all these logs, and they just sit there with their dog and we can take in the world, do a little bit of meditation. We're taking the colors, the smells, and we can just ease their minds and rest their minds for a little bit. And you know what, that's
the first twenty minutes of being in rough Track. So's it's an amazing place, but it's all about making sure that we have kids that get to live the life that I've got to live.
Well, that's bloody incredible. I'm trying to visualize, like I'm getting lost in the story. I'm not thinking about what's my next question. I'm going I want to go there, I want to sit in the bush, I want to walk a dog. I want to get him or her on it looselyd how does it like? Do they come three days? Do they is it like? What is that a program that goes for an extended period of time?
Like?
How does it work? Like?
Yep?
So we have the core kids that are continuing on from last year. So I think there's about there's about fifteen of those that are continuing on and they'll be with us for five or three five or three days and a week, and then we have what we call our roundyard kids. In roundyard, for anyone that's ever been on a farm or seen a seen cheap hurting demonstrations, it's the dog on the opposite side and bringing sheep
back to you, or moving in a circular motion. And that's one of the fundamental trainings that we do, is teaching kids perspectives. They understand what it's like from someone else's point of view, which a lot of the kids that come to us haven't learnt what it's like, you know, and that's why, you know, often they can be violental, steal or hurt other people because they really don't have
the hole wearing someone else's shoes point of view. So that perspective is the roundyard project that goes ten weeks, and the kids usually come like you know, some of the ones that came today, hoodies on, heads down. It's bought it hot, right, but you know, they're all very aged within themselves and angry at the world. And what we try I do over a very very short period of time is get them to express themselves, get them
to communicate effectively, and to trust us. And we do that all through the dogs and also to be responsible. The first thing I do when they arrive is pick up the dog shit, you know, clean out the dog's waters, make sure the dogs okay, connect with the dog, do a little bit of training with the dog, bond with the dog, and then I can work with them really really easily because the dogs are already created that little opening that I can peek in and say, okay, young follow How you doing?
How many dogs do you have?
Mate, ah, between twenty and thirty. I'm not going to give you an exact number, because you know, you always feel a bit crazy dog man if you give an exact number.
But I don't like that. Once you get over five, you're a crazy dog man. So don't fucking worry about the number, like only twenty six, Craig, I'm completely sane. Yeah, you're not so a good way.
Well, the thing is that I reckon that look a lot of our sisters because we're part of a wider tracker network from Queensland right across New South Wales and there's lots of these programs, well I should say lots, there's eleven of these programs. We're a little bit different because every kid gets a dog in our program. I think with the big city that Sydney is, there's a lot of disconnect and I really want the kids to connect, or really want them to find that very quickly. In
our program. We don't have the smaller town headspace that a lot of our sister programs have because we're in such a big, disconnected city and our kids are so disconnected from school or family or culture. That them working with a single dog for the entire ten week program I think is so valuable because of got to have that relationship. And at the end of the period, Craig, this is where it gets interesting. And everyone always has the same question, I hope what I'm jumping into you,
But do they get to keep the dog? And the answer is no, because a lot of our kids come from quite violent homestic violence is just a part of life. And one of the skills that I want each young person that comes to us to take away is your ability to absolutely love something, be so in love with a dog because they can't with a dog. They sleep with a dog in their swags when we're off doing trips or shows with their dogs, so they're really bonded with the dogs. But I want them to know that
it's okay to let go. And that skill, I think is something that is really lacking in a lot of the young people that will come to us, is learning that skill to love and let go, as opposed to will I need you and I'll force you to be with me.
Wow, there's so many body variables in this I'm thinking about. So is there a Davies there? If so, when you said, the people are coming back from last year which are out three to five day are weekers? Yeah, whatever that means. How are they are they kind of ongoing? Who are they versus the people that come in and out for ten weeks.
Well, they're our amazing young people that still need more of the program. They can't go back into education. So my big goal for the kids is there's only two ways to leave rough Track, and that is full time educational full time employment. Other than that, you're staying with me, and I'm going to get you to that point that
you are absolutely ready. And I don't want the kids to go to early because I don't want them to fall flat on their face and go, well, I'm not going I'm never going to get a job again because that was too terrible. You know. I want them to be absolutely ready, which is why and I get the kids to do live television, they do performances in front of thirty thousand people, they do performances in front of
their own families. So I really challenge their abilities to make sure that they have all of the boundaries pushed so when they do go back to school or they do go into the employment world, they're absolutely ready. And they've got all the resilience and all the tools and their toolkit that they can deal with any given situation. So it's it's an extremely full on program to ten weeks. But then the Core program, those kids that continue on
with us. Sometimes we'll have twenty kids continue on with us. Sometimes we'll have, as we've got at the moment, about fifteen continuing on with us. And they are the little legends that help the other kids. It's just like a station. You know, most farmers you'll say, how do I train a dog? They're like, I don't know, only trained one when I was a kid, and then that dog's trained all the other dogs. So people don't like it when
I like in kids to dogs, but I do. I love dogs more than anything in the world, and I love the kids that I work with more than anything in the world. But the kids that continue on from Core, they will teach the other kids everything they need to know. And kids tend to learn better from their own mates than they do it from the old people that don't know anything.
So many questions. Now, firstly, you built, you created a problem for yourself because problem right, Well here's the problem. So you go they're either going back in full time education or full time employment, and if they don't with me, I'll be like, fuck that, I'm staying here. Fuck employment, that's cool. I'm starting on the farm with farmer Dave. I'm just looking at me. I'm done.
Yeah, it was a bit of an issue that we did create, probably a space that kids want to.
Who would want to leave, You would want to leave?
Yeah, I don't.
I don't want to leave, and I haven't been been there.
So I do work them really hard. Like I've got to be honest with you, Craiglock. When we're doing clean up jobs after the floods, or we're doing bushfire fencing recovery jobs, you know, we'll be working from six thirty in the morning till six thirty or ninety there's a daylight hour. We're using it to build fences for people, clean up paddocks that have got crap on them from the floods, or cleaning out people's houses. So I really do work them. So there is a bit of a
push factor into the employment work. And the funny thing is I caught up with three young blokes just recently at a big event and I asked him. I said, oh, how's work? And they're like, way easier than Rough Track, And you know that's to me, that's awesome because I've done my job. I've shown them you know this is fun. Yeah, but I'm going to push you a bit further, push you a bit further, push you a bit further, so when they do go into a job, it's a breeze.
You know. I want them to ask to get into that job and go, wow, this is this is really easy. What was I worried about or what is you know my family members that aren't employed because some of our kids got multi generational unemployment. You know, I want them to go in like a breeze because there's a lot of pressure put on them and fear about a job. Much easier to go on the doll or much easier just to stay at home and do drugs. You know.
So it's really pushing them every which way I can within the safety wrap around that is Rough Track, so that when they go out into that job world, they're just like, WHOA, how.
Long had they amazing? How long before?
You know?
So they come in today the new group, hands in the pocket hoodies, fucking looking at their feet. Everyone's a fucking idiot, No one knows anything. You can all get rooted and fuck you and I'm the toughest and whatever. How long before that becomes where they're you know, they're starting to integrate, they've made a friend or two, they're opening up a little bit, and there's you know, it's a bit warmer and less chaotic. Yeah.
So in our program, it usually takes up to about three weeks, and they're real hard nuts to crack three weeks. But it's really I've got to get them here every day. So if i can get them here the two days a week that the roundyard kids come, so Tuesdays and Thursdays, it's usually things start to change by week two. Then by week three three, they really are those all those barriers are gone. They've got their heads up there. Certainly the hoodies are off and they're communicating with each other.
They're having fun. They're not just going to come and then fight straight on. You know, just how they are in the first week.
Don't fucking look at me, oh.
Cricky like they yeah, yeah, the first week is just like, oh my god, here we go again.
And do you have any big lumps working for you that can kind of just step in the breach there and go listen. Listen Champ and listen Sugarray. Listen. Mike Tyson said, all the fuck down. Do you have anyone that can kind of manage that or do you have to do that?
Well? Yeah, I always take any punches. If a punch is going to come, and look, I'll just hug the young person. I'll hug them. I'll move them to a new place. And so you know, it's always about redirecting. It's no different to dogs. It's just redirect get them interested in something else, get the energy out whatever's been pent up. I mean, you know, they're just dealing with the anxieties that are building up in them, that are adrenaline is going through their system. They've got to get
rid of it. So I'll just redirect them off somewhere else. And if they whack me or try and stab me for a bit, women, that's okay. But then the main thing that I get through to them is that they are loved and they are valued, and they are heard and come over here because I really want to. I want to hear what's going on with you. And then you know the tears will come and again oftentimes that anger is usually just a whole heap of hurt that they've got. The hurt people, hurt people. Well, these kids
really been hurt by people. You know, I would would never try and tell you what some of these kids have been through, but you just have your most terrible thoughts, and that's what a lot of our kids have been through, you know, the most terrible situations that people have done to them. So they're carrying a lot of hurt and sometimes all they know is to put that hurt on
someone else. So my job is to find a place for them to be able to release that pain, but also manage that pain and have the skills so that when they're triggered by it again, they've got a whole array of tools, and their tool get to go, you know what, I can get myself out of this situation so that I'm not hurt, but no one else is hurt.
You are quite unique. Do you know what a great bloke you are? I know you don't like compliments probably, but what you do is fucking amazing. Do you know that?
Well?
Thanks man, But I mean like, and I.
Know, I know it's not about you. I know it's about the kids, and I know that. But truly, dude, you are true. I meet a lot of cool people and you are right up there like you inspire me, Like I'm proud of you, and I don't even know you. The shit that you do is because like it's messy, it's not uncomfortable. I mean, it's not comfortable. I'm sure it's I'm sure there's many times where it's somewhere between
dangerous and just fucking shitty and unrelenting. And but then you're talking about loving these kids who are trying to stab you or hit you. What is that about? Where does that come from? Is that something you've developed or is that you Is that innate?
It could be, it could be innate. But look, when I was a little kid and I had to manage you know, fifteen or twenty stock dogs, all different stockmen, right, so you know, like I'd have to manage the camp of dogs, put them away, feed them, to let them all all that sort of stuff, and pick up all their dogshit. Was I started doing that at three years of age, so I was a little tiny thing. So I had to learn very quick how to manage dogs.
And they've got teeth right, softable, yeah, and they can be unpredictable and fierce and yeah.
So I learned a lot of ways of how to redirect anger and anxiety back then, and how to move things around and create flow systems from a very very young age. And of course having five brothers and five sisters, you learn how to do it with humans as well. And then going to boarding school, you really learn and
you see what works and what doesn't work. And the one thing that I think consistently never really worked was when we punish people, especial young people that don't have the tool kits or the cognitive ability to see around corners or look in hinhdsight. They just don't have hindsight to look upon. So it's very much so about always rewarding the good behaviors and always looking for the gold. You know, there's always a lot of shit for a
gold miner to go through. And I'm like that Fossica that got off the boat from California into the Australian out back and he walked how many weeks and weeks and weeks to get to the gold field and that still had the gold fever. Keep searching for that gold. And that's what I do with these kids, is no matter how many times they tell me to fuck off, no matter how many times they just totally ignore me and give me absolutely nothing. I'm just looking for that gold.
As soon as I see that little shine, then I feel alive because I know that I can work with this kid, because this kid, as every kid, is worth having the wonderful life that I've had. Like when you've seen death like I have, and sometimes at your own hand, which is you know as I look back and I go, thank God, I didn't do that. But when you when you see that this kid really does have something that they want to let you in, I jump in there like that fossica.
Wow, that's Blenny, and.
I mind that gold. And you know what it's It's all about just rewarding that good behavior because very quickly all those terrible things that often teenagers throw out the world. I mean, we've all met one, we were one too much as it can be assholes. But the thing is that I've given an opportunity to be something else. There is no greater joy than when you get a team ager to choose something else than being an asshole.
Fucking brilliant. And also, by the way, leadership training can start at three everyone I did for Dave was in management at three who was head of canine resources including picking up dog shit, feeding, grooming. Wow, so how do did that go down at the dinner table? How are you up the end? Who can't quite see over the top from tomorrow you're in charge of the dogs?
Well yeah, and of course back then there was no desex thing, so all undersex males going for each other, all undersex females going for each other. Man. Of course we all had the problems of the dingoes coming in as well.
Yeah, I've bean mayhem? Mate? How when nearly done? When early done? How does this work financially? And how can we help? Could like to what is how does it work? Like the people pay to go there?
Is it?
Government supported?
Is it?
What is it? How is it?
Well, as you guys know the old adages, we need a village to raise kids, you know, and I work in the village. We all work in the village, and we can all point the finger and we can go. Someone should do something about that, you know, like, oh my garden got completely kicked over last night, mob of kids walked past, or you know what's happening in it? Alice Springs everyone's pointing the finger and going someone should
do something about that. What I'm about is solutions. So if I'm getting the kids to go and pick up rubbish, you know, if we want to go and have a swim somewhere, we'll spend an hour picking up rubbish, then we'll go for a swim. You know, it's ways about you are the solution to whatever problem is in front of you. Because I got told by a nun when I was in my bush school. I pointed the finger and I said, oh, he did this and anyway, she said, oh you've you know, she told me that one finger
with one thumb was pointing up at Jesus. How can you point the finger of Jesus? But three fingers, That's the important thing. Three fingers are always pointing back at you. You know, always yourself what you can do to fix the situation before you start point the finger at someone else. So, my very long spill, there is anyone listening can help us out. And it costs a lot to do what
we do. We have very very skilled staff, and we need very very skilled staff to do what we do with our young people and to get them where they need to go. We've got to take them right around the country to expand their worldview as my worldview has expanded, as I alluded to earlier. So if you can financially
support us, then absolutely please do. Just go to the rough Track website, if you can come to winning of our fundraiseres throughout Sydney, or come to our shows and just support us at our shows, or get online and buy stuff that the kids have produced. And because we've got a lot of social enterprises which the kids, we try and employ the kids through and that's those core kids that I was talking about. They're not ready for the job market, but we provide jobs through them right here.
But yeah, if you've got skills that you reckon a little organization that does a heck of a lot, we'll then get in contact with us. Because the big thing that we want to do this year is get our own forever farm, you know, a place that kids will always have as our home. Like many of us who have got farms, it's always home, even if we don't visit there. And what we want is to always have a touchstone for our kids to go. You know what, that's my safe place. Do they have a visit for
the rest of their lives or not. They know that it's safe and it's a cure. But if we can then have our own forever farm and have tiny homes on it so the kids can actually stay there safely twenty four hours our twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, well that's that's my challenge to the village is be part of our village and help us get where we want to go and get that forever farm. And of course with land prices it costs a few
million dollars. But you know, if each one of your listeners chucked in five bucks would get there real quick.
We definitely would. By the way, everyone, rough Tracks, are you double F? Not ough?
So?
Are you double F rough Track? Mate? You're You're an inspiration. You're a great dude, and I genuinely mean that we'd love to get you back in six months or three months or whenever you can because there's so much more to learn from you. I think we're going to do something. I think we're going to do a little something I might come up with and I might do a workshop or something. We might we might we might do a
little fundraiser for rough Track. Everybody, So stay tuned we're going to do something, a little something, and at the very least we're.
Going absolutely amazing what being part of the village is. You know, we've got to do whatever it is. Now. I'm the one that takes the punches and the kicks, but I also get the joy of the hugs and the tears and the muner and we've all got our part to play to make sure that no kid gets left behind. And if we can live in a country that can produce such greatness, we've also got to look at the cracks and make sure that no kids fall down.
On Yeah, well, mate, congrats on what you're doing. You're awesome. Hopefully you'll hear from some of my listeners jump on. Is it the Rough Track website.
That website or even you know, a free and easy thing to do is saying kind words. You know, when we put on our social media on the Rough Track Facebook page or Instagram, the kids doing things, all the kids watch it. All the kids are on there, of course, and if you just say kind things and you know in sure that the kids know that people are watching
and people care, that's another big way. And when the kids are all out and about it, when their bright Orange, doing community service or doing a big production or a show at any of the Royal shows in each big city in Australia, just giving them a really rapturous applause. You know that's that can make the difference in a kid's day.
Yeah, great, mate, stay there. We will say goodbye Affair, but for the moment. Farmer and Dave, you're a gun and we appreciate you and love the work you're doing. And thanks so much for your time and for hanging out with us on the new project.
Thanks so much.
Thanks mate,