I'll get a team. Welcome to another installing the You Project. It's bloody harps, as it is every time. I hope one day, one day, maybe it'll an episode will happen and somebody else will be here. They'll say all those words, but they'll say it's Brian or it's Tip. It could be anyone who knows. But for the time being, you've got me and what you're not here yet, you just pipe down. But for the foreseeable future, Doctor Sam, they're stuck with me. Hi, doctor Sam, Welcome to the You Project.
Thanks Craig, thanks for having me here.
Yeah, well we I did not know about you until recently, but you're a bit of a rock star. And I tried to have a little I've got quite a few followers across my platforms and like a hundred thousand or something, and so trying to try to know everyone who follows me is an impossibility. But I probably don't look much on Facebook, but a period I look at just who's commenting or liking to see to get an idea of
who's interested in my stuff. And I was just scrolling down the other day and I saw doctor Sam Casey PhD, and I went well, first, I didn't know if that was a boy or a girl, and it's you. It's well, not a girl or a boy, it's a woman. It's a grown, grown ass woman. And I looked at your Instagram page. Tell people your instapage. We normally plug at the end, not the start. But what's your insta page?
You simple? Yep?
Now, tell people what kind of doctor you are, and like, give them what kind of doctor you are. You're a PhD. But what's it in and and what do you do? Like you and I meet in an elevator, We got forty seconds do we hit the ground floor? I go, what do you do? What do you tell me?
Oh gosh, that's a hard one. Well, can let me explain the doctor bit? So, yes, I have a pitch So it's a research degree, so not a medical adopt my field of education with psychology, specifically around play therapy. So that is my PhD. And yeah, what do I do?
So I'm I'm a child therapist read to play therapist, and I really wanted to make play therapy more accessible, So really take it out of the playroom, take it out of the therapy room, and get it into the hands of the professionals and the parents who are actually around kids all day every day. So that's what I do.
I teach. I guess how you prescribe play for you know, common childhood and parenting issues and making it really I guess more of the lens in which I look at that, and so going through all the different parts that I would be thinking as a child therapist and what's important, and then giving those tools to professionals so that they can use it as like a decision making tool and how to use play best for the child in front of them.
Wow. Wow. And so when you say play therapy, what to I don't know is treat the right word, but to treat what? Or to assist with what? Or to Yeah? So how is it a therapy? What does it treat? Yeah?
Good question. So play therapy is actually an evidence based treatment, and it's a preventive model as well around emotional and behavioral issues in children, so you know, even things like mental health, you know, so anxiety, depression, but also things like school refusal, blended families, stress, anger, like all of those kind of issues that you see arise in childhood. And I think the greatest thing about play therapy is that you can start from like age three because play
is so accessible for kids. It's their language, it's how they process the world, and that's how they use, I guess, a tool to be able to figure out what makes sense in their world and what's going on for them. So they won't use language and talking like we do. We can talk things out. Yeah, play it out, yeah, kids, play it out?
All right. All right, I'm trying to get my head around this. This is new for me. So thank you. This is actually will you'll be pleased to know in seventeen hundred and something episodes, we've never had this conversation. So well done you, Matt. Yeah, no, it's good. This is interesting. So can you give us and asks me and a bunch of others listening. Can you give us, me and the gang an example of a problem or a challenge or an issue and then a prescription to treat that, like just an example.
Yeah, okay, perfect. So if you had a child and you're seeing a challenging behavior. So for example, I had this little boy and he was heading animals, so in really being really aggressive towards animals, and so the professionals around him. So as teacher, you know, speech therapist is really concerned. Obviously, his auntie, who was his carel was really concerned. And so because I don't know the root of that just yet, right, I took a non directive approach.
So what that means is like a child, let approach, let them kind of lead. And it was really interesting because the child straight away went to being a vet and caring for animals. And so that was session one, right, this child was being the one caring for the animals, and so as the sessions played out, what actually came
up was that it was really stemming from jealousy. So that was his way in order to be able to connect with his care and he didn't know how to ask for those needs being met in terms of getting the connection, but he knew that if he was to hurt the animal, the care really cared about the animal. And so when we started to do work with the
care around that, those issues went. So imagine if I went at it from a this is how you treat animals and we need to be kind and we need to be this, I'd be assuming something that the child actually already knew. And so it was really about creating a therapytic space. So that child would actually process that himself, and then obviously all the other issues came out, and so we were able to, I guess, work with the
people around him to directly do that. On the other flip side, right, you could have a child with anxiety, and so I had this child with anxiety, and post Halloween he was really struggling. He did not leave his mom's site because he saw these obviously characters come out, you know, knocking on a stel trick of treats, and he believed that was real. And even though the mum was trying to show him, hey, like you know this person behind the mask because it was a neighbor, he
was too scared. And so in the Playstession, I took more of a directive approach because this was an issue that had come up and it was really, you know, like he had generalized anxiety, but that had really obviously peaked to the point where he couldn't be learned in the house. And so what we did is we played a game, and so I re enacted to Halloween Seed.
But then I was putting on the mask and taking off the mask, and I was talking about how scary it is and how it looked, so real to me, and so I really kind of reflected right how he was feeling. But then I worked him through that next step and so that child went home from that session and he was okay again. So it shows through the power right child less directed?
Yeah, okay, So right, so you're you are. So somebody's shows up with a problem or a challenge or an issue that needs to be treated. But then you design play or you design some kind of game. Not the right words, but you know what I mean around So it's not like, oh, here's the box of games over here. You know there's or here's one hundred different play options. Pick one of them. So is it your are there
certain things that you would use consistently? Or is every need in every kid in every situation kind of case by.
Case good questions. So usually in the playroom, especially that first example that I gave, where we are just trying to explore, right and letting them lead, we have a range of toys that actually have a therapeutic I guess goal points. So we'll have aggressive toys, we'll have nurturing toys, we'll have real life toys, We'll have a lot of open ended toys. So things like you know, art materials, or they could use it for a number of different things,
you know, kind of construction type toys. But to be honest, the main toy in the tool in the toy box is me. It's it's the person. It's the adult there to facilitate that. I could do this in the sand with sticks, right like, or I could have the best of toys and still not be able to do it if you just don't have the skill and the intention behind what you're doing. So yeah, I very much believe that we as you know, the adult is the best tool in the tool box.
Yeah, well that is true. That well, that makes sense. Okay, There's so many things I want to ask you, so many things. Oh my god, I said to you forty five minutes. I reckon this might go longer. I'm writing myself. This is not very professional everyone, but I'm writing notes as we go because.
Oh I love it.
I don't want to forget the shit in my head to ask Sam. Okay, so I'm going to jump around a little bit. But what was your PhD project? Like, what did you research for your PhD?
Yeah? So it actually evolved as I went. Okay, so this is really interesting and this is what I love about doing a PhD like that and having supervisors that support that, because I'm so curious and what would you come with obviously shouldn't be what you end with, and being able to call out things in the industry. You know,
you could obviously go two ways with that. So when I started, I obviously am multicultural, and so I came out from a I'm noticing that a lot of multicultural families don't get therapy for their children, and I want to know what their barriers are. I want to know why there is this potential resistance for it. So I started off with interviewing a bunch of parents and I'm saying, where is this resistance? How do you feel about therapy? How do you feel about play? What would get you
to go? What would not get you to go? And so they were like, I actually have no issue with my child going to therapy. That's fine, But I'm just really worried that when I talk to the therapists they're going to judge me. They're gonna, you know, have a different view worldview, They're going to be just like discriminating against me. They're going to have these negative views about my culture and I'm like, okay, interesting, so let me
talk to the therapists. So then I interviewed a bunch of therapists and I'm like, so, what would be your barriers around working with families and children? And They're like, off, the child in the player room, no issue at all. But I really struggle with the families, you know, because they do have these really strong views. And then as the therapists were talking, they had all these negative bias
and I was like, wow, that's really interesting. So what the parents are worried about is actually a reality, Like that's actually what happens. They had this bias and they didn't realize that they had it, and they all had very different ways of looking at it. So they were like, in order to be respectful, I need to talk about culture, like I need to bring that up straight away, and other ones would be like, in order to be respectful, I need to leave culture out of it, Like, let's
not even go there. So they all had really different views of what respect looks like. But no one was checking in with the parents, right, So the children wasn't the issue here, it was the parents. And so I could have gone two ways with that, right, I could have directed it back to what I was looking for, or I could say, wow, like there's just not enough in trainings. It's all a tick box, right, which is
learn about how to work with this culture. Now you've attended the training tick versus what are your beliefs, what everyone's got biased? What do you think about this? What triggers you like, let's get deeper into this. So then I created a t from both of those two research projects, so I actually published. I was publishing as I went. So I published both and then I created a training and I talked about this and I said, often what therapistic they need is knowledge, and what we need is
more understanding of ourselves. And we need to have that self reflection, look at where our blind spots are and be willing to work on those. And so I created this training, and a lot of therapists you know, gave me feedback around that. They were like, wow, I did think that I needed more knowledge, but in actual fact, I need to think about my views. What do I define a respect? Why do I believe that, what are my experiences of being minority? If I am like unpacking
it all? And so that's what I came away with, and I guess that was really the foundation of my paperscription, which is we have to be doing it in a work ourselves, Like if we're going to be working with kids and families, we need to check in with ourselves constantly about what's that bringing up? Because a lot of the time play brings up stuff for us.
Yeah. Wow, my listeners are listening to this, I can tell you twenty eight percent fifty percent agoing. Fuck, she talks fast? Has anyone ever told you to fast.
All the time? And I really hope that they can slow it down on the you know, the podcast thing because I do.
Yeah, yeah, Sam, wow, you you are? You remind me of a guy called what's his name? American? Uh? I think it's Ben Shapiro. He talks fast. You remind me of him, but so not excited at all. That's interesting. So what were so you said that some of the therapists had unconsciously had biases? What were they?
They had their negative views about the family, So you know, for example, it could be like something as simple as oh, well, you know, in their culture, you know, usually the men make the decisions. So I was just going to talk to the dad and just let the mom kind of you know, just be there because she would be making decisions anyway. Like in their eyes, they thought they were being respectful to the dad and the beliefs of what they perceived to be the family, rather than checking in right.
So it was just again intentionally that there were trying to be malicious or anything, but it was just coming out in the way that they saw things based on obviously their own experiences.
Right now, this is a little outside the professional kind of specialized focus, but as someone who works with kids all the time and tries to understand the mind of kids and also in conjunction with the adults in their world, it's just something I'm curious about. Tell me about Halloween. What the fuck do you think of Halloween? Like, what are you doctor, Sam? Do we need kids going to strangers houses asking for lollies in twenty twenty four? Is
this what we need? Don't like in any other context? Imagine, Well, I keep my gates shut, so I'm not firstly, I don't know them. Well I'm not fucking handing out lollies to children, And to me, that's just the whole you know,
that's me though, That's I'm not saying I'm right. I don't necessarily think I'm right, but just to me, the idea of giving children a whole fucking handful of sugar and then sending them on their way, and with all the shit that's going on with diabetes going through the roof and obesity going through the roof, I know we're not allowed to say it, but it's fucking true, right, So I get offended or whatever, So it is so
just true, right, This is not an opinion. Like we've never been We've never been a more obese nation, We've never had more diabetes, we've never had worse fucking diets, and now we're sending kids out to strangers to get lollies and fucking sugar, and no one's saying I don't know if this is a good idea, but I'm just a grumpy old man with them.
I'm pretty big and interested in stuff too, especially for kids. And I think a lot of the time when you see a lot of diagnosis is really young, right ADHD things like that, no one's looking at the sugar intake at all. And so I think Halloween, Yes, that's kind of goes against everything that we're saying, but I think the bigg shoe really is in the schools because you know, at least in Australia we're still using lollipops and icy poles, is treats for kids, Like, it's still the rewards that
are given, and then it's rewards for good behavior. So it's like, okay, so for a child to get rewarded, you're giving in something that's going to spike their blood sugar right up, Like it doesn't make sense.
Well, and I think it's no secret there's that there's a correlation between obviously diet mental health and ADHD and kids ability to focus and putting fucking sugar in their bodies. And then you know, anyway, you're not here for that, but doesn't matter. We can talk about whatever we want.
It is all related though, it is all related, even for parents. I say that too when they're just like, oh, I'm just losing my shit in the afternoons, like teaching me how to be patient, and I'm like, well, have have you eaten? Like are you having protein? You know around that time, because of course you're not gonnaeel great if you've like starved yourself all day or just et you know, the leftovers of kids snacks like that's not Yeah, it's not good.
For you, So tell me how. I'm just cured if anyone else is furious with this, but fuck it. How does your job work? Inverted commas? In inverted commas to people? Do you go to people's houses, do you have a facility? Do they come to you? Do you go to organizations? How does it work your job?
That's a good question, and it's evolved over the years. So I was a mobile play therapist for a while. I was going into schools and you know, doing it that way, and then I had an office and really right now, I do it online. And that's the reason why I do that, and it's very intentional is because a lot of the time, as the child therapist, people will be like, here is my child, fix this problem? And a lot of you know, people are still operating
in that way. But I know from the research it is way more effective to teach the professionals around them, to teach the parents, to teach the you know, the teacher, whoever else, to support a child's mental health. It does not have to be me. So I have purposely moved online to be able to access that and going Actually, I want to work with everyone around the child. They have a lot more power and influence over the environment. So it's important that they feel because it's not going
to be a ten session quick fix. You know, this is for life. Kids have mental health for life. So yeah, for me, it's online. I meet with him online and do it that way.
Amazing. Yeah, by the way, did you know Ryan Holiday follows you?
No? I did not know that.
Really, did you not know that? I did not know that?
Oh my god, I lot all his books.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm like Ryan Holiday. Now if you don't know, he's probably I mean, he's probably the biggest author on Stoicism in the last decade or so in the world. He's always banging on, and he's a very good writer, and he's a very good researcher. And obviously he's no Socrates or Marcus Aurelius or Epictetis or but he talks about it all.
And he's he makes it makes sense though. Like I was actually recently in Greece and I was getting all up into the Greek philosophers, and just his books always come back at me.
Well, he follows you, doctor Sam. And I'm a little bit jealous because got a little bit of a crush on him. So you were talking about the assumptions that people make based on you know, uh, parents and families, culture and stuff. What what's your background if you don't mind me asking, Yeah.
No, not at all. I'm so I'm Anglo Indian, so it's like Indian mixed with Irish and English. I was born in Australia though, and my parents came here when there were six, both of them. So yeah, I feel like i'm culturalise and part Australian.
Yeah, you're an as you're an aussy dude, Yeah, you know. Yeah so, And it says on your I just wanted to ask you this because I found the interesting. It says on your ig profile recovering good girl. What what does that mean? What is recovery? What's a recovering good girl? Did you used to be a good girl and now and now you've.
Bed pretty much with the cause?
What so you're now you're a good girl? And you were a trade? No? No? You were you a straighty one eighty? Were you like the perfect No?
Well I was and then I wasn't so well kind of so growing up I was like probably like the good little Indian child, like I was really quiet, yes, thank you please, so polite, did all the right things. Was just you know, and this is probably the outer though, because you know, my parents talk about how I was like a bit of a rebel at home, but you know, that's kind of how I grew up going I want to do you know, I want to be good and do things the right way, and I was always worried
about being nice and you know, again pleasing others. Obviously lost a bit of that when I was a teenager and I left school like halfway through year ten because that's what I wanted to do. So there was definitely a steering away from that. But then I continued that in my adult life. You know, I was my marriage. I married a Muslim, and you know, he had a lot of obviously strict rules around certain things, and I was like, Okay, I'm going to be like this perfect
wife and I'm gonna be this perfect mom. And then I became a mom and I was like, I don't want to be a perfect mom. That's not authentic. That's not what I want to teach my daughter, and that's not like the message I want to be sending. And so then I had to go through this like I'm I guess this whole inner work stuff of who am I and what do I want and how I can be more authentic in my own power And to be honest,
it was actually my daughter. So she's seven now and my first one is nine, But it was a birth of my daughter that really shook things up for me because she reminded me of me when I was little, Like she had this power and like this little fire sorry in her and she knew what she wanted and she like just wanted wants to go after it. And I was like, I can't actually support that and foster that. I'm if I've shut that down within myself, like I
have to. I have to get that part of me back that determines sam that you know, persevering through things. But in ways that made sense to me, right, that honored you know, who I was, And so yeah, that was a whole journey in itself.
Wow, that is super interesting, like trying to trying to figure out the self in the middle of our own life. Like my PhD is in self awareness. But oh love that. Well. Yeah, I'm always talking to people about you know, it's funny when you ask somebody to tell to tell them for
them to tell you about them. So I'll go, you know, sometimes I'll just sit down with someone and go, all right, tell me about you, and then they tell me where their house is and where they went to school, and you know what star sign they are or what car they drive, or I'm like, well, none of those are you. They're interest that's interesting. But tell me about you though, not your car, not your job, not how many fucking
followers you've got. Don't tell me about your height or weight, or you don't even tell me about your body, because that's not you either, Like tell me about you, like, not your brand, your business.
My point because I think a lot of people even use relationships are like I'm a you know, I'm this person's partner, I'm a wife, or I'm a mother or like they just have these labels. But it's like, well, that's a relationship that's not necessarily you.
And I can hear my listeners going no, that is a big part of who I am, And of course I agree. But it's like, I think, the kind of philosophical question and is trying to figure out in the middle of all of the busyness, mayhem and roles and you know that whatever, Oh, I'm an academic, or I'm a bricklayer, I'm a fucking astronaut, or I'm a pisces, or I'm a vegan, or I'm a crossfitter or I'm a whatever. You know, it's like trying to figure out
the self in the middle of all. So can I feel free to tell me to buck off with any of these inappropriate questions? Doctor Sam? So did you become a Muslim when you married a Muslim man? Was that that's part of the deal, right?
Not something I identify with now, but yeah, at the time.
I did right, right? Okay? And so how is I don't want to talk about that in depth for obvious reasons, but now being a So the kids live with you all the time full time or no?
We share fifty to fifty customers, okay?
And so do you get to take any of your therapy and theories and ideas around play for a test drive with the kids? So they are they your crash test dummies?
Of course, we like not in the way you'd think, like I think a lot of the time people, you know, you'd probably be thinking, I'm doing some sort of like structure activity and I'm trying to teach them this. No, it's like dance parties like every night, right, Like that's my thing. I love having dance parties with my kids. But yes, definitely, play is is a language. That's one thing I focus on and in such a I guess
it's really potent. I think it's just so powerful, you know, when they're going through something or if there's any stress or whatever we're doing, it's just the perfect way to reconnect. So yeah, love it. I'm very playful with them, but also even just for myself too, like it's just a way of life. Yeah.
There's a very famous quote by I think it's by George Bernard Shaw and you would have heard it and most of our listeners would have heard it, and it's we don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow
old because we stop playing, right. And one of the one I mean this is like one of my favorite things is laughing at stupid shit, is hanging out if generally it's my male friends, sometimes you know, females, but male friends, talking shit about not much, riding my motorbikes, not thinking, not having a serious conversation, not working on business, not working on my study, not just just hanging out and laughing at stupid shit, which I know ladies don't love that as much.
I know I actually do it. It's funny because my kids they like the number one thing, you know, when we're hanging out in the evenings or ask like tell me more embarrassing stories about what you did when you were little, they just love it. Or even now, right, they just like hearing embarrassing shit that I do. So I gotta always like keep tab with that.
But I wonder why as we I wonder why we stop prioritize, prioritizing having fun, Like I know, it's I even ask grown ups, you know, I go, so, you know, we go through everything we talked about last time, we talk about you know, we talk about excise, and we talk about purpose and focus and relationships and career and lifestyle, and we talk about all the big ticket items, you know, all the jigsaw puzzle pieces that make up the fucking puzzle that is you. Right, But I often say to
people do you like having fun? And they look at me like, well, that's the dumbest fucking question ever. Of course, I go, what's your fun plan? They're like what, I go, what's your fund? Like what are the things about fun plan?
I want to use that now well.
One hundred percent, Like I think grown ups do not have fun. I intentionally, I intentionally do things that there is no purpose other than laughter or fun. That is that is me, and I just like there's a component of me and people who know me well, like I'm a sixty year old, fucking twelve year old, Like do
you know what I mean? And it's like, if you're ticking all these boxes and hustling and grinding and fucking whatever, but your life is devoid of fun or laughter or joy, I reckon, you got it wrong?
Yeah, like are you even living right? But I think a lot of the time it's a stress. It's not just distress, but it's also you know, our minds are caught up either in the past or the future. So it's worrying about future stuff that may or may not happen, or worrying about past mistakes or past shit that we can't really change. In it, we're not really present. And I think a lot of the time people think of
presence as like meditation or yoga. No, it's played like if you're in the moment and you're having fun and you're laughing, like you're present, like you're yeah, just loving life.
Maybe with adults that like, it's not so much typically a childlike play, but perhaps more creativity where we're creating something like I'm People would think I'm much more science here because of my work and my degrees and stuff, but I'm actually more of a creative Like I love conceptualizing something, coming up with an idea and turning that thing in my head into a thing in the world that intersects in a three dimensional way with humans. You know.
It's like and whether or not that's whatever, you know. It's like, I opened the first personal training business in Australia and at least fifty adults told me not to do it, people who knew more than me in inverted commas.
Right, they said, the first one in Australia. That's incredible.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was in nine ninety. That was thirty four years ago, when you weren't even born. That's annoying.
I was actually born in nineteen nineties, Oh were you?
So that's yeah, so what the year you were born? And I'm not saying I don't know, great because it would have happened anyway, But I had, you know, I was training people. There were virtually like I started training pting in nineteen eighty six, which is, you know, obviously nearly forty years ago, and there was pretty much no one,
if anyone, doing that in Australia. There was no qualification, there was no course, there was no registration, there was no insurance, there was no industry, there was no personal training industry.
Right, wow, you and the dumbbells.
Yeah, just me and the dumbbells.
And I basically, you know, had this idea and I'm sure somebody else would have had the idea, but to conceptualize that and to start doing appointment only training with people and you know, figuring out this shit and then you eventually and yes, of course it would have happened despite me, but it so happens.
I got in on the ground floor. And then to watch this idea that I had four decades ago become this flourishing thing that it is, it's like, you know, and then whatever it is, you know, it's like you I just launched a new workshop tonight which is called
as We Record. It's the third of December. It's a Tuesday night called pre Season twenty twenty five, right, And so even with that, I go, all right, I'm going to do a workshop about helping people get their shit together so that their New Year's resolutions actually turn into something tangible, not just to fucking another year roles by where they have these conversations and set these goals and have these wishes that never.
N nothing changes. Of course, to bring that, you know, back to the PT stuff, I think weight training is the perfect thing for that. I absolutely love weight training. I think it's been such a game changer for mental health, for everything. But it's also a way to show up for yourself. And you're having to like sit with the weights, right, and you know, some exercises I'm like, oh, I can go heavier. Others I'm like, oh, I think it's too much.
And you're having to find that perfect balance of growing your muscles. So you have to push yourself obviously not to the point of injury, but then obviously not to the point if you're not feeling anything. And it's just that constant again presence with yourself. And I find this year different exercises, different days. Feel stronger one day, feel a bit weaker the next, But you know, when you're tracking that it's really exciting. I think weight training is amazing for that.
Yeah, and also I mean also you can So when I train every night, I'm with one of my best mates and another mate and sometimes there's a third one. So I trained tonight with John and Mark, two of my mates, and that for me, that's play because we.
Are playing around my playground.
Well, it's like a big fucking grown ups playground.
It is heavyweights in itself is like a prescription, right, It's amazing, Oh so much.
So I can't really say it too much anymore because people roll their eyes and go, well, of course you fucking say that.
Can I say them? I'll say it.
Yeah. I've noticed quite quite a few grown ups, more women than men, I think. But that's just what I've seen. So it could be wrong getting into grown ups getting into coloring coloring books? Have you seen that?
I have mindful coloring books. That's a thing.
Yeah, what what is that? Is that? Just? Is that like a is that a metaation? Is that a throwback to childhood where it creates neuro associations with good taptivity.
It's one of the things to help people be more mindful, to be more present, you know when you're coloring in and there's obviously this light design. You're actually you're sitting there and you're coloring, and it kind of brings you back to the now. So it's just another tool. But I can you've got to find your thing. Like, for me, that's not a thing. I don't enjoy that. I mean, I'm sitting down a lot of the day. So for me, it's with the weight training. I need to be able
to move. That's been me being mindful. But for some other people, yeah, it's the coloring in books. They love it. So I think it's about testing different things, experimenting and finding, you know, what works for you.
I'm interested to hear about the girl who dropped out in year ten who is now a fucking PhD. Like, what, right, that's a bit of it. Well, I don't you might be the first one I've met. I don't know too many people that finish school in year ten. And even so, let's say year ten, you were what fifteen or something? Yeah, I in two thousand and five ish, there weren't too many people finishing school at year ten, right.
No, but I definitely was the first out of there.
Tell us a little bit about that. Journey from wanting to get out of school to getting Obviously, you went back and did did you do year twelve? Or you just started an undergrad as a mature aid student or what did you do?
So I'll go with the getting out first, right. So I was failing school, like I couldn't focus. I was just there to socialize. I wasn't retaining stuff, I wasn't interested. Like nothing made sense to me. And so I was like, what can I do? Like leaving year ten? I can be a hairdresser. I love doing my hair. That makes sense. So that was my plan? Why not?
Right? Quite the master plan, doctor Sam.
I was pretty impressed with myself. I was like, this is it? Of course, you know, life at other plans. And I found myself working at a childcay center because apparently that's one of the places you can get a job without any tape studies. Because even Cape wouldn't take me. So I actually take, for those who don't know, is like a higher education, not quite university, but that little bit lower. And because I didn't finish there ten, I
couldn't get in there. So I started working at this childcare center and I came across the little boy and he had just visited his parents and he was in care child protection, right, so he was with foster carers. But he just visited his parents and he came back and he was super aggressive, and I had all of the childcare workers telling me how to handle the behavior, and just a part of me was like, I think, I just need to be around, not too close, but just be there and let him play out what he
needed to. And I saw how therapeutic that was. It was like a release, and I was like, this must be a thing. So I went home. Obviously there was no Google, it was like nine MSM. But I was like play therapy. And then I found this huge world of play therapy, which was massive in America, not quite big in Australia yet, and that's when I was like, I'm going back. So I did a trainee ship, so I did like a certificate three in children's services while
I was working at the childcare center. And then I did a university preparation course and then I did in undergrad in psychology and children Family Studies, and that was just amazing, Like I absolutely loved everything about what I
was learning. I still didn't know though, the next step, and I started doing play therapy studies and that's when I discovered I could do a Master of Social Work and work in shop protection because I really wanted to experience that, but then still keep going with my play therapy. So did that, and then I actually wanted to do more play therapy studies. I became a wretched play therapist. And thankfully it was the lecture at the university that was like, well, you want to do your research, why
do another master's do a PhD? And I was like, I can't do a PhD. I don't have the grades for that, and she was like, no, you know, you start off doing research and you know you prove yourself, like you show that you can work at that level. And so yeah, I ended up getting into this PhD program. I ended up getting a scholarship just by you know,
being a credit average student. I definitely didn't ace university and anything, but I had this vision and it was amazing how many doors just kept opening when I just was like, I'm going to be an expand play therapy, like that is why I'm here, and so it almost like it sparked this huge internal drive within me.
Yeah, that's amazing, that's amazing. Isn't it funny how the girl who couldn't focus, the girl that was failing, becomes the woman that gets a PhD and can focus. And so how old were you when you started your first degree?
So I was nineteen.
Wow. Well that was a quick That was a pretty quick turnaround.
Yeah.
I mean it went from wow wow. And so you figured out at fifteen or sixteen how to manage this kid that was for most other people unmanageable.
Yeah, And it was this intuit like it was weird because it was this intuitive thing of like, I know everything I've been taught. This goes back to the good girl conditioning right of wanting to be a good childcare worker. I knew everything I was taught. I knew all the strategies and how to redirect the play and distract and all of those things. But another part of me was like, he's really struggling right now, and I think he needs me here to take over, but just to really hear
what he's saying. And he's not using words, but he's playing out something. And so when I did that, and I saw the benefit of how much that just released him, and then he just came back into the fold of everything I saw. I witnessed that power of play, and I was like sold. You know, before I even learned anything about it, I was like, this is the thing I need to get out here. I need to show other people. And I was using it in all other you know, when I was working in to our Protection,
I started to use that. I used it in all different settings. And I think it's just so powerful when we know how to sit back and not take over and let the child play.
Is this kind of therapy potentially going to help some kids avoid being medicated?
I think so. I think very much though, because what ends up happening, especially if the parents doing it. We have obviously the play therapy models where we teach parents this, but when parents get to know their child's needs, it's not so much a we need to squash this, but rather what do they need? And then they go get that need met. I mean, I was the person studying
and then taking a break on the trampoline. I'll go all you know, going for a quick ride and then coming back Like I was able to figure that out for myself doing a PhD, because I did that online. But for a lot of the kids at school, they don't have that environment. So I think having caregivers around where they tap into their energy would definitely say kids from getting medicated because they're actually being able to build the other things right in learning how their brain works well.
And you think about like when you take a drug, it's changing your brain chemistry, When you bounce on a trampoline, it's changing your brain chemistry. When you lie on the floor and cuddle a dog. If you love dogs, it changes, or even if you hate them, right, but in a different way. But it's all about how do I change, you know, how do I change what's happening in my body?
You know these anxiety responses, or these dopamine or this serotinin response or this you know, like cortisole response, or you know, there's so many ways to manipulate the one of the more scientific term the inner workings of the body, right, you know, hormonally, nervous system, all of those things that don't necessarily and by the way, everyone this is not a recommendation or a prescription. This is just a conversation.
But I think you know, like even we've seen in grown ups the comparison between people who use the right kind of exercise to treat depression versus an antidepressant, and in nearly all of the studies will all of the studies that I've looked at anyway, University of South Australia did a big one this time last year. I think it was November twenty twenty three. UNISA came out with these massive this massive paper around how exercise outperforms or
in their study it outperformed you know, antidepressants. And again we're not telling anyone to get off anything or on anything, but it's at the very least it's worth, you know, if we can do something to our body, or support other people to do something which is fun based or play based or you know, something that's actually going to change what's happening in not only their brain and their mind but also their entire body, it's worth at least exploring, right, Oh definitely.
And I think we we just don't get the power of things like exercise. And I think even for a lot of women, I hear this where they're like, oh, but I don't like to run, and I'm like, no one said you have to run. You know, there's different kinds of movements, but I think it's comes down to us taking responsibility as well, really for our lives and our habits and going okay, like feeling depressed. Yes, medication could be one piece of that Puzzleble what else? How
am I spending my time? You know? Am I moving my body? Like you said? What am I filling my body with? And then being able to continue to tweak those things and get to the root causes of that, you know, the emotional eating, whatever else is going on. So I think for me, anyway, I think it comes down to taking that responsibility for our lives than our habits, and like you said, they rewire our brain like it's so powerful.
Also, here's another idea, doctors, Sam, you know I don't like running, Well, it doesn't matter. You don't have to like it like you'll like it like not. And I'm not you know, I'm not trying to be a hard ass, but we don't need to like everything. Not everything needs to be fun or painless. Right, Sometimes the things that are really fucking effective suck for a little bit of time.
Yeah, Like it's uncomfortable, like no one likes to do it. I wasn't like super like Joyce the whole time I was with my PhD or even exercising. I still don't want to do it sometimes, but you'll never regret doing it. And I think when you know that, then you develop that self discipline right where you're like, yes, I don't feel like it, but I'm going to do the thing anyway, And that feels self trust, which is really important.
Yeah, And I mean the other thing is too. You know, when you go for your run whatever, you're doing something good for your heart and your lungs and your body and all of that. But you know what else is interesting is you know, it's that whole kind of that old chestnut about it's not about getting to the top
of the mountain. That's about who you become on the climb, right, who might becoming like when I do these you know, and Andrew Human talks about the anterior mid singulate cortex, the part of the brain that literally gets a bit bigger when we do things that are hard that we don't want to do right, And it's that like when I lean into the suck, right, when I do the shit that I know that I need to do to create the outcome I want, but in the moment, I don't want to do it. I don't feel like doing it,
but I do it nonetheless. Apart from ticking the box and creating progress, what I'm doing to myself is I'm building competence and resilience and strength and cognitive fitness. Right I'm actually changing. Just like when you go and lift heavy shit, you build muscles. Well, when you go and lift heavy shit with your mind, metaphorically, you're building decision making muscles, You're building resilience muscles, you're building calm and
the chaos equanimity muscle. You know. So sometimes we've just got to do shit that in the moment we don't.
Want to do definitely. And I think often when we're in situations like that, we can just blame the external like I'm too busy right now, or I've got young kids, or I've got this work schedule, I have no time. But if we honestly sat there in a room with just us and I don't know the book or you know us, and the ways we realize it's actually just really hard. We're just blaming external stuff. We take a lot of that out, it's still hard.
And this is part of you know, self awareness, Like real self awareness is painful because you know, like when you really do and I said to Melissa, who runs my life. We're having a chat the other day, and everyone thinks everyone says to me, not everyone, that's bullshit. A lot of people have said to me, Sam, Yeah, oh, you work so hard, you work so much, you work so many hours. You know, you're doing this and that, and you know what I kind of do. But also
I fuck around, like I waste time. Like, yes, I that too. Yeah, I do a podcast every day of the year, right, but I mean that's an hour a day, Like, it's not exactly ten hours a day. Right. Then I've got to write some copy and come up with a title, So that's a little bit of time. And yes, I'm studying, and yeah, I do like quite a lot of corporate gigs a year and all of that stuff. But honestly,
also I waste a lot of time. And I was talking to Melissa about this the other day and I said, everyone thinks I work harder than I actually work, and I don't. I kind of let them think that because my ego likes it, right, But it's actually not true, Like it depends on you know, what the baseline is or what the comparison is. But you know, and I just think that this in this whole space of you know what we're talking about now, which is you know, like training our mind or training our body, or and
then owning up without beating yourself up. No, not self clothing, self awareness, but owning up and going, you know what, I'm wasting my time or I'm I'm the problem. It's like we like everyone else to be the problem because if everyone else is the problem, we need to change, right, I don't need to Well, it's Sam's fault, clearly, and if it's Sam's fault, then Craig doesn't have to change.
So that suits Craig, you know, yeah, yeah, you're so right about that. And it almost like it keeps us stuck, right, the avoidance of that keeps us stuck rather than calling ourselves out on our shit in a really loving way, but in a like this is I'm getting in my own way here, like what am I doing? Like what needs to shift? And I think that's really empowering. I mean it's uncomfortable, but it's empowering.
And how many of us, so I know we've changed tact in the conversation doesn't matter, but how many of us really waste potential? Waste? Time, waste energy, and then I mean you've not you, not you clearly, but you know I and I don't meant it in a judging way. I meant it in a supportive way. Like I meet so many people who are one hundred percent smarter than me, Like they're smarter than me, they've got more talent, they've got I'm like, fuck, I wish I had your genetics.
I wish I had your creativity. I wish I had your brain and your memory. Like I meet so many people who have got so much potential, but they're either paralyzed by fear or they're trapped in some kind of I don't know them well, I don't know OCD or or laziness or avoidance or a bit of all of it, or and they just kind of hope an opportunity comes along. I'm like, here's an idea, create an opportunity, you know, go on.
I doesn't say no, You're so right about that. I like, I say this all the time, Like I, you know, did not get the best grades in university, and there was so many students that are like fully surpassing me in terms of their intellect, and even PhD students that were working double the amount as I was I doing, and yet I was making more progress. Why because they were really struggling with failure, any any perceived bit of failure. They just couldn't take it. It was just too much and
they didn't know how to. It's almost like they were on level ten and they just had to write up their level one and they just couldn't do that anymore. It was really tough. So I realized that's actually a benefit, right when we can call ourselves that our own ship. But also when we're used to failure, when we see that as part of the process, we then don't fear it. We just keep up leveling because we're like, cool, I'm on the right track.
I read I read in your notes that you work in prisons. Is that right? Or you did What does a play therapist do in prison?
Well, see, I'm not just a play therapist. I'm a mentor health social worker. So I do counseling. So I've done counseling, you know, with moms, wait in private practice. You know, prison is another environment. Yeah, so not doing play.
That's a big cross section of the humanity. Yeah, yeah, it is.
But I think when you work with the double. It's right. We're always working within a child and even with ourselves, like there's always that you know, kind of core childhood wounds that we all have and it still runs our life because that's where a lot of our programming was really set down, and that's how we see the world. And so I think that that lens is really helpful too when working with adults.
What do you think This is just an opinion, but what do you think gets in the way most people? Like, most people are not where they want to be. It doesn't mean they hate their life, but most people, if you say, who'd like to be make more money, or be leaner, or change your body, be healthier, fitter, or you know, like most people have got something or some things about their life that they really want to change, but at the same time, they're not doing anything to
change it. Right, Yep, what do you think that's about?
Oh, there's so much there, But I think it comes down to how they see themselves really, right, go on, yeah, go on expanding sound okay, So how they see themselves. They have really limiting beliefs and so like let's just say exercise, Okay, someone you know wants to get healthier, they're gonna what they do is they got all or nothing. So they're like, I need to be that person that's at the gym, you know, for an hour a day, and I need to have all the right clothes and
I need to do it in this way. And the second that they don't, they're like, it's all I can't do this. I always do this, I always fail this, and they just go back to living their life. It's almost like the shame kind of takes over.
Right.
So it's either like I'm also more on horrible. There's nothing in between, and so they're not psychologically flexible in the sense of going, I need I need to call myself out in this I keep getting in my own way. What are my barriers? I need to show up for myself every day. I need to believe that I can be that person. And so it's closing the gap between who they want to be and where they are now.
And so imagine this going I'm actually that person that shows up for myself every day and I do movement could be ten minutes at home, it could be an hour long gym sash, but every day I am that person. Then it becomes a part of their identity and so again, when they believe in themselves like that, they they're able to do that, and I feel like a lot of people aren't.
Yeah, And I think I think also being okay with fucking up, you know, like so many people that I've worked with over the years, they'll say to me something like fell off the wagon on the weekend. I'm like, what is what? What wagon? What wagon? Is it?
Fucking up? Though? If there is no wagon, Like I'm renowned for going out right on and on a Saturday night and having the cock downs and having a late night, and then I'm at the gym in the morning. I'm like, you know, I've recovered from that, and I don't see it this as fucking up. It's probably not the best workout. I mean, I would say like eight out of ten times it's a pretty weak performance, but I show up, and for me, it's like success. That's all I want
to do. I want to show up for the fun, but I also want to show up for the accountability part. And then every now and again, I'm actually stronger, probably from all the extra food or all the extra things. But I think it's people perceiving I've just fucked up. I've gone off track, Versus I don't see this getting off track. I see it as you know, part of a very balanced life is that when you're present and you can have fun and you know how to, you know,
be able to put all that aside. But then when it's time to show up for yourself and be disciplined, you can do that. So I'm that person at work where I've got my little Typeway container and I've got my meal prep. But I'm also that person that can go to an event and just be present and eat whatever's there. Do you see what I mean? And both serve a purpose. People aren't good at doing that. They kind of see that as contradictory, versus I see it
is very a walking contradiction. But I see it's very in a child healing where we can do both, we can be both.
And I think that's the thing. It's like if what I was kind of alluding to is people will eat grape for four weeks and then they'll have a tymtam or two timtams and they go, oh, fucked it up now, and then they go on a six day bender because they ate two tymtams. And so it ain't about the Timtams. It's about the psychological and emotional reaction to the two tympamps because the two Timtams don't fucking matter.
They don't and like the ability to get back on truck as quickly as possible. And that's what I think about on the weekend right, a lot of people wipe out their weekend versus if you really take it apart, Yes you can have an all some night and a great night and you can do all the things, but then you get back on track the next you know, day, or the next even like if you've had a big lunch,
you could still then you know, be more conscious for dinner. Like, I think people write things off too much, and that comes down to what I said before, the all or nothing mindset, rather than just being a bit more flexible with life.
Trying to manage us. That's the ever present reality. I should start a show called the U Project where we talk about how we can manage ourselves.
There's a thought, what a great idea you should get onto that, Like asam.
Now I'm the ideas guy. Hey, your ace, We're going to get you back and talk about more things. We might need to adjust your speed down to point eight zero point eight, just so my sixty year olds can keep up with you. But how do people find you, Sam, connect with you and potentially do some work with you. How to just steer our audience where you want to?
Yeah, so I'm mostly active on Instagram, so that's doctor Sam Casey. They can find me on my website, which is doctor Samcasey dot com. Or I'm on Facebook as well, but yeah, Instagram is, I would say, my go to. So check me out on.
Your fun and interesting and clever, and congrats on what you're doing. Congrats on you know, leaving school in year ten and then doing your PhD and being a mum of two I'm sure awesome kids, and just being the energetic inspiration. You are high energy. You are high energy. And it's eight point thirty as we speak, and I'm like, wow, this is a lot, but it's great. It's great.
Appreciate that I was wondering.
I was wondering how I was going to be with a seven thirty PM podcast. Thank god it was you, because you dragged me out of my slumber. We'll say goodbye affair. We'll say goodbye affair. But Sam, thanks so much for your time.
Thanks so much, Craig appreciate it.