I got a team, Craig, Anthony Harper, doctor Bill Sullivan, doctor Tiffany, and Cook over there at typ Central. Imagine if you did a PhD. Have you ever thought about you ever thought about going to UNI? And you're I mean you're still young, You're only forty one or something. Have you ever thought about going to UNI? No?
I haven't. But as life goes on and I get more and more interested in the process of just learning in different areas, when things really capture my attention, I have half a second glimmer of thought. But then I remember all of the stories I hear about you and the process of it, and I don't think that it is my jam.
Well, yeah, I mean you do need to have a specific I think. Well, but anyone can learn. You just need to figure out your way to learn. It's like, you know, when people say, let's say a like to doctor Bill, Hi, doctor Bill, Hello, Craig, Hello tiff Not that you would know anything about research or study or academia or university. No, not that you would. But like if you feel compelled or you think you got something
to add, you know, jump in. But I forget somebody said, there's this protocol, doctor Bill probably knows, And I think it was like it was either twenty or twenty five minutes of like hard study and then five minutes where you which this is not a very complicated protocol, five minutes of whatever you know, go away, do some push ups, have a wee, you get a drink, sit under a tree, then come back. Right when I started, my protocol was five minutes of that and then twenty five minutes of
sitting under a tree. Or my inability to be able to read research and actually stay present, My inability was world class. Like having said that, if I am reading something that I'm excited about or fascinated with, right, which sounds bad, I should be fascinated with my research. But doctor Bill will tell you like reading academic journe and you know it's But it took me quite a while, but I still think I'm probably about twenty ten. I
was five twenty five, but I'm about twenty ten. What about you, doc, did you when you were an undergrad and then a post grad student and even now, like, do you have a particular protocol that works in terms of optimal focus and attention? Yeah?
I think it varies even within your singular discipline there are certain pockets of knowledge that you're just more innately stimulated by. You know, you just can't get enough of learning about X. Yes, HY is also interesting, but maybe not so much so. I think I was kind of lucky in a way. Like during my PhD, I remember enjoying the topic so much that it was difficult for me to take a break. Okay, it was difficult to
convince me to go on a VACA. I just and that's not necessarily because I was a work a whole, like, It's just because I've sincerely enjoyed doing what I was doing. So that's what I usually tell the students who come through my lab or through through our department that listen, you got to love this or the PhD is going to be absolute torture for you.
Yes, yes, I love. I love my area of research. It just like some of the like like when I started writing my lit reviews. So it's systematic literature review looking at it essentially the way that metaaccuracy, which my area of focus has been measured and is measured across different you know, disciplines and so on. But I started with eleven hundred papers. As you know, when you whittle it down and then and think about that tif I don't know, on average, let's say papers twenty pages, so
I think about that. Then you've got to you know, and you don't have to read the entirety of every paper, but you can't just glimpse over it. And then that one hundred and that eleven hundred pages paper's got whittled down to one hundred and ten, which is a very interesting correlation, but that's what it ended up. And one hundred and ten papers then became a table in my review, a massive table. But just staying focused to go is
this is this paper relevant? Is it not? And then you look up and you go, by the way, I've got six hundred and third and to go. It's hard to stay excited in that it's.
A demoralizing yeah, and it can be repetitive. So and you know, you see this a lot with you know, masters and PhD students. I think a lot of them come into the program really excited and then they get to see how that sausage is made and it's a lot more difficult cult than they ever imagined. So I'm not saying you can't do it, but if you love the topic, yes you're going to have a much easier time.
Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think for me, like what made what makes it not easier, but what makes it more I guess enjoyable, and like where it's it's worth it for me is because because I work, you know, with teams and athletes and corporates and organizations where I'm literally in front of groups talking all the time about this kind of social intelligence and social awareness that's called matter accuracy and why that matters and how it impacts
everything from building rapport and connection and trust to leadership and teamwork and synergy and culture. And I can kind of bring my real world experience and observation into alignment with my research and bring and have this kind of synergy of academia and real world learning and real world
kind of experience. And then I think the challenge for me is and for a lot of academics I reckon who get in front of non academic groups, is how do I share my stuff, my thoughts and ideas and knowledge in a way which not only is understandable but also is valuable, like where people one they understand it, and two they can operationalize it to help them without bamboozling them with graphs and charts and data and bullshit, but just but still get the truth in inverted commas across to them.
You know, that's a real challenge, and I think it's pretty universally understood that in order to earn a PhD, you have to make some sort of original contribution, now a brand new discovery, if you will. That contribut it's something new to the field that hasn't been previously appreciated or known, and that's that's really challenging. You know, there's a great deal of information out there already, and I
think it's pretty consistent across disciplines. Whatever you get into, you really need to start doing a deep dive into everything in order to find those undiscovered nuggets of knowledge. And like you're describing, you have to be so well read. I mean, you basically have to become an expert, you know, one of the one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on your topic of choice, so that you can contribute something new because you don't want to rediscover
the wheel. That's the last thing you want to spend your time doing. Uh So, yeah, that's the inherent challenge and a PhD. But what a reward, right, I mean, at the end of the process, if you're awarded that PhD, that really underscores the value of how you invested your time. You contributed something new to humanity's body of knowledge, and
that's really hard to put a praise on. And that's why I admire anyone who has gone through this process and gotten a PhD, because that tells me that other experts agree they've contributed something really impactful to their field.
Yeah. Yeah, And it's what's interesting is, you know, my field is psychology, right, But it's funny you come out with a doctorate or a PhD in psychology, but if psychology is the ocean, I'm studying a drop of water in that ocean, you know what I mean. It's like, oh yeah, people go, oh, so you'll be a doctor of psychology and I go, technically yes, And they're like, so you're like a psychologist.
Nor lie down on the couch and start telling you about my childhood.
Traumas and yeah, but if you want to know anything about metapception or meta accuracy, then I'm guy. But other than that, you know, probably keep your childhood trauma to yourself.
But yeah, it is it is it's it's incredibly specific and nuanced and trying to explain to people that, you know, here's this here's this beach of sand, and I'm oversee that grain of sand over there.
On this beach. That's what I'm researching five years and Toddy, and like you said, when I'm finished, I will be one of the experts in the world until about next Tuesday when I get overrun.
And when you produce your PhD thesis, there's probably only two or three people who actually want to read the thing because it gets so specific and so nuanced.
Oh you know, we've we've churned out over one hundred papers from my laboratory right brand new research revolving around this parasite called toxic plasma.
And the I could probably add up all the people who read all one hundred of those papers, and it would still be dwarfed by the number of people who might have read a popular article that I've written about it. You know, that would be toward the toward a general audience. So yeah, it's pretty crazy to think about it how specific things can get. But what we do have to keep in mind is, no matter how small the part of the puzzle is, that we investigate. You can't complete
the puddle without that piece. So this is something I tell all my students all the time if they start to get discouraged, no matter how small that puzzle piece might seem to you, it is worth, you know, mapping it out, because the puzzle can't be completed without it, and you will be the person puts that piece into place.
So don't ever forget that. A friend of mine the day said to me a guy I grew up with, who great guy? He said, oh, when you finished, like we're chatting, He's like, what are you working on today? I said, I'm just working on my you know, one of my papers. It's systematic literature review. What's that? And I told him and he goes, oh wow. He goes, can I read it? Like when you finished? Can I read it? And I go, she don't want to read it? And he goes, no, I really want to read it.
I go, here's a better idea. Let's spend ten minutes or five minutes, and I will tell you what it's about and you'll understand that and you'll be mildly interested. And then I read him the abstract right, and he's like, nah, I want to read it. I read in the abstract
of my paper. He's like, nah, no, I get it all right, I did really yeah, yeah no. So what about when you do do you ever do corporate stuff, doc, Like, do you get in front of non academic audiences you mean like corporate speaking and stuff?
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, like what talking to Yeah, whether or not it's at corporate conferences or workshops or seminars. Do that stuff as well? Well?
We certainly do a lot of like presentations at scientific meetings, and these are these vary on the topic. So most of the meetings we go to are microbiology and nature because we study a parasite, so we go to infectious disease meetings microbiology meetings. But some of the aspects of the parasite that we study, some of the particulars of
its biology, will take us to meetings from different disciplines. Yeah, we don't go to too many, like pharmaceutical companies because they I don't really know if that's like a platform that they offer. But I certainly run into colleagues who work in industry at the various scientific meetings that I told you about.
So one of the things which is probably you know, well it's not. Probably it's my main job in inverted commas is is corporate speaking. But I will talk at everything from real estate conferences to banking conferences, to medical conferences, to blokes in prison, to you know, cricket clubs and football clubs and elite athletes, but speaking broadly around you know, how like human performance, how do I manage me? How do I manage my mind, body, emotions, choices, behavior, lifestyle?
How do I get the best out of me? Right? And so my premise for talking to you know, it's like someone might go, so you're going to talk at a banking conference, what the fuck do you know about banking? I go nothing. I don't need to because I'm not there to talk about banking. Because what I've got is
a thousand people in a room. And each of those thousand people have got a brain and a body and a mind and a life and a lifestyle, and all of them make choices, and all of them have behaviors and habits and rituals, and probably all of them overthink, and all of them at some stage get anxious. And all right, so there's this. Yeah, I'm not a banking expert, but I'm not there to talk about that. I'm there to talk about how all of those people who work
in that industry can look after themselves better. You know the question.
You're using a different skill set there, You're you're becoming more like a coach, and.
Yeah, how do I manage me being able to.
Yeah, it doesn't matter if they're they're bankers or in the auto industry or what have you. You're you're giving them transferable psychological tools that they can use to excel in their field, no matter what it is. So if you include my book in the realm of what I do at the university, I have certainly given talks at corporations and other places.
I've been everywhere with that thing. That's what That's what I was thinking.
So libraries even to build a books Please to meet Me, by the way, churches Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it's because well humans are in churches too, you know, I mean, every absolutely, and there's just you know, there's these this wonderful thirst.
For knowledge that I think most humans have a curiosity. And my book, which Pleased to Meet Me, is basically a known as manual for the human body based on the knowledge that we currently have. Now you know, It's a very up to date, cutting edge type of book that teaches you how genes and microbes and psychological forces, evolutionary forces all conspire to make you who you are.
And I'm hard pressed to find any human being that has no interest in that topic because Know Thyself is one of the greatest philosophical pieces of wisdom that's ever been put forth, and this book teaches you how to do that. Yeah, And in the same manner, it teaches you how other people operate, which can you know you can leverage for good or bad? I suppose, But it's comforting to know that the same things that make you tick make another person tick. Okay, So you can find
some commonalities even though you might be very different. You can find these biological commonalities that explain how you got to be that type of person. And in my mind, it engender's a lot more compassion between people despite the differences.
I love that you know you can't.
Help to a large degree the type of person you became, and if you understand that about yourself and you understand that about someone else, you can put that on the table as like the conversation starter. Look, we're very different. We can respect that but we do have a lot in common. Okay, we're all human, we all have the same wishes and aspirations, we all fear the same things, and I think at the end of the day, we all want to make the world a better place. So
why are we different? And how can we overcome those differences to achieve our common goals? And that's a conversation that needs to be had. But there's a lot of people out in the world making a lot of money by preventing that conversation from happening.
Yeah, it's an interesting time we live in. It's very especially right at the moment. So one of the things I want your thoughts on this, Right, So this is a really common Craig thing. My listeners have heard a version of this a thousand times.
Right.
So, when I have a thought, if I believe the thought, you know, and let's say the thought it's just a construct in my mind, but it's not true. Let's say the thought is I'm in danger, right, but I'm not actually in danger, but I think I'm in danger. But the reality, the real world reality, is that I'm safe.
There's no threat, I am not in danger, but I think I'm in Dangerotional kind of association with that would be fear, terror, whatever, And then the physiological could be all the things you know, elevated heart rate, breathing, adrenaline, cortisol, sympathetic, nervous system, all this physiological stuff happens. So in this kind of this myriad of events that are going on almost simultaneously, like cognitive emotional physiological or psychological emotional physiological.
Is the response in my body caused by my thought? Or is my genetics which is you know, my genetic disposition? Does that determine how I think? Like, what's the direction of all of this? Is it all at once? Is it? What are your thoughts on that, like the way that our thinking affects our biology slash physiology and vice versa.
Yeah, that's a really interesting question, kind of a biological chicken or the egg type of thing. And it all happened so fast that we can't perceive what the kinetics of this possibly is. But from all I understand about stress responses and so on, and I, you know, just to touch on your point real quick, we invent so much unnecessary stress in our lives today that it's just crazy.
And it stems from what I call evolutionary ghosts. Okay, these are physiological things that happened to us that that kind of prey upon our ancient stress responses, things that would have kept us alive back when we were running away from cheetahs and cougars or whatever, you know, or trying to find food. Those are legitimate stresses that if we didn't satisfy those drives, those needs, those anxieties, we probably would have died. Okay, the survivor was on the line.
That's not the case for most people today, most people. Okay, So we invent all these other stresses, mostly like their social in nature, because we still have deep within our brains these primordial drives to broadcast the best version of ourself that we can. Okay, we're obsessed with status, We're obsessed with climbing the hierarchy for these silly reasons to attract a mate and dominate you know, the tribe or society if you will. And we don't have to do
that anymore. These these are totally invented stresses and pressures that we put upon ourselves. And I know it's so much easier said than done. It's easier said by an old man like me than a younger person, because those stresses are very palpable. You know, I didn't think this way when I was younger, but of course I didn't have an appreciation for the biology behind all of it.
But all this excessive ambition for status, when you think about it in biological terms, very silly and very unnecessary. We can build a different world that is not based on competition and you know, defeating one another, but based
on collaboration and cooperation. That's when humans really excel, Okay, not when they compete, when they collaborate, when they cooperate the scientific enterprise that you were describing earlier, Craig, despite the fact that you plug in one small piece of the puzzle that illustrates the power of the connectivity of all the scientists working on the same problem. None of us can figure it out by ourselves anymore.
We rely on all all the other individuals helping us.
So I really get frustrated with egotistical people these days, thinking that their singular actions, you know, caused some great thing. It is always built on the shoulders of giants, right, So what the hell was I talking about before I went on That's okay, the evolutionary ghosts and the sustresses and the order. Okay, see this is another problem of getting old. You forget where your train of thought.
No, I think it's caused you've got twenty seven things going on it once up there. So yeah, go on, evolutionary ghost. I'm writing that down. That could be the title.
Yeah, that was in That was in the book if people want to learn more specifics about them, and I encourage people to do so, if not from my book, from somewhere else, because you can live a much more happier life once to identify the silly reason behind many of our biological drives.
Yeah, so here's what. Here's the answer to your question.
After all of that, I think you know from my understanding of the situation is when we, when our brains at a subconscious level, detect some threat, okay some you know. Let's say that you suspect that someone is spreading some bad.
Gossip about you. Okay, that's going.
To send some kind of red alarm, you red alert into your brain, right and you might not know why at first, but it will quickly occur to you that oh my gosh, I'm feeling all this this worry and this anger and maybe this thirst for revenge because I believe this person is talking bad about me. Okay, so I don't believe we think about that. The emotions happen first, because those emotions are the same as if you were to be chased by a bear, those would be the
same emotion. It's the same biochemicals coursing through your bodies. Whether it's a physical threat or a psychological threat, same chemicals, it's the same chemistry. So evolution has basically co opted a primordial system that kept us alive. You know, if a predator was chasing us, and it is applied it to our social interactions, which I mean I can understand. Back in the day, those may have been really critical
to your survival. You know, your status and the tribe and the amount of resources you get, the amount of mating opportunities and so on.
You don't need to worry about that in today's world. I sure don't. Yeah, I don't think most people do. I mean, obviously there's some people.
It's really bad places where these primordial stress response pathways are still going to keep them alive. But most people stress about really really dumb things. And if you have the courage to analyze your responses and think intelligently, Okay, why do I feel anxious? Why do I feel angry? Oh, it's because someone might be spreading gossip about me. Put a pause in between your response and the emotions you feel, and it can be short, a short, little pause, or
maybe you just want to sleep on it. You know, that can even be better sometimes, and you'll find that your responses tend to be a lot more measured, a lot more stoic, and a lot more sensible if you utilize your prefrontal cortex, which is the logical analytical part of your brain, and apply it to the emotions that you're feeling. Okay, I'm recognizing my emotions, but my common sense is telling me this is why I'm feeling those emotions.
And then you can.
Evaluate whether you really need a drastic response or if it's no big thing.
That's why you're that's why you're doctor Bill. Yeah. What's interesting is that, like an intellectual understanding can coexist with an irrational emotion in the same human at the same time. Like I might think this is ridiculous, but I might think, oh, doctor Bill doesn't like me. Right, I'm all of a sudden, I'm insecure, I'm thinking doctor bild, I don't know he said that, or he looked at me da da da da while while probably knowing that's not true. Do you
know what I mean? But at these things, or I could Maybe a better example is, you know, I've literally stood on a stage thousands of times. I did my first paid speaking gig when I was twenty six. I did lots before that for free, So thousands of times I've been of an audience. And there are still times when there's fear, like irrational fear, not terror. But well, this will be the day that you fuck up, Craig. You've been very lucky for the last thirty five years,
you know, there's that kind of oh what if? What if? What if? While having data that tells me, no, you're actually quite good at this, you know, unemotional evidence and data, whereas those things can coexist, and sometimes I need to consciously just recognize the feeling without buying into the feeling, you know, while still not pretending that there's zero risk
and I'm guaranteed to kill it, you know. But I think also that like when you are opening the door on which is you're opening a Craig door, which I like, why do I feel this way?
Even?
Why do I think this way? Why do I respond this way? Which is like a meta awareness or a you know, metabception, metacognition more accurately thinking about thinking but also thinking about emotions. It's like that that is a real skill and a kind of awareness to be able to in the moment, like you said, before you react, which some we can't always do that, but if you can find a moment to go hang on, what is this feeling? Where is this thought coming from?
Why?
Why?
Why is my state changed? Why am I angry now? Why am I scared? Now? Why am I overthinking?
Now?
Why do I want that person that I don't know? Why do I want their approval so desperately? What is that about? You know, this is like a real kind of I think, like an interpersonal and intra personal superpower where you can understart to understand yourself because you're you know, like understand yourself bigger than just your biology and physiology.
Understanding you know, the way that you interact with others sociology and the way that you think about others and think about yourself psychology, but just understanding you for you, but also understanding you for others. You know, does that make sense?
Yeah, I think so, And I'll start by saying, I adore you, Craig, you know, thanks whether Professor Bill likes you, thank you. You know, I know you've probably lost so much sleep over that, and I feel so bad that I didn't make it clear.
Thank you. I really do enjoy coming on here and talking to you. Thank you, Tiff. Can you make that a real please that Doctor Bill said he adores me. So that is going to be all over the internet in about a six second reel very soon. Thank you. I think anyone who talks to you will feel the same way. So now the episode is going to be called Doctor Bill Loves Me. There you go.
I'm sure you'll get a lot a lot of listeners on that one.
Yeah, but I'm sorry storry to interrupt. Go ahead.
Oh no, no, I certainly understand, like the trepidation that you still can feel and getting up in front of an audience, even if you've done in a million times, you're worried that the million in first time is going to be a disaster for some reason, yes, or that you're you know, as we get older, we're losing it or something like that. And you know, that that's perfectly natural. But like you said, I love the example that you
pointed out there. You have the emotional intelligence to stop that feeling in its tracks and analyze it and diffuse it with data. Okay, you diffuse it with all the other instances where you've gotten up in front of the audience, all the other instances you felt nervous, Everything was just fine. There's no real reason unless you went to the bar for lunch, that you're going to screw up this time. Yeah,
so calm down and have fun with it. And if it is a disaster, who cares, you know, So you have one bad day, you'll be able to recover from that. We take ourselves and other people way too seriously sometimes, and you know, I think this is just a part of life that maybe it comes along with age, maybe it comes by analyzing your emotions more carefully. But you know that we all have one really basic thing in common.
And I give this advice to friends and even family members who feel stressed out, and it sounds like really really crazy advice, but I tell them, don't forget. One day you'll be dead. That person will be dead, everybody will be dead. No one's going to remember any of this. Okay, In a couple billion years, the sun will swallow the earth.
All of humanity will be wiped out. What are you stressing for? Go out and have some fun. And if you weren't stressed before, everyone now you are. No, it's so like you were. You didn't say this exactly, but and correct what I get wrong earlier. Firstly, I agree with what you said. It's really we may be yeah, of course, and we we invent problems like if there isn't like I've got friends, you know who you are friends. If they don't, if nothing's wrong, they'll find something. They'll
manufacture something to worry about. They will find a needle of negativity in a haystack of hope. Oh yeah, right, we have.
A strong negativity bias in our brain. It's kept us alive, you know, back in the day. Again, it's another one of these evolutionary ghosts.
And I think that when we think about you were talking before about the physiological responses to perceived threat or danger, or or maybe I was talking about what we were talking about. But it's it's like so like some fear is good, like certain fears are good because they're going to keep us alive and they make total sense. And Craig, don't put your hand in the fire, and that is a good fear to have, or don't pick up that snake, or don't jump off that you know, these are all intelligent,
healthy fears that make sense. But then there are irrational fears that are almost can almost become a psychological and emotional prison, that stop people's growth, that stop people's happiness, that stop people's ability to socialize, you know, agoraphobia being a classic example of people who are scared to leave their house or to you know, like and full respect for that, like it's a very real condition, but you know, trying to trying to manipulate or change that physical fear
response over time. And what comes to mind for me is I've probably coached about like I've spoken to a lot of people about public speaking a lot, but it probably coached about ten people in the last thirty years who came to me expressly because their job required them to talk to a group. And sometimes it was a group of five, and sometimes it was in an auditorium with hundreds of people, and they were somewhere between scared and uncomfortable through to terrified and I didn't really have
any abject failures. But what was interesting was and it was mostly successful and some with some stellar performances where people then almost became addicted to it because they loved it, right, But watching people transform from doing a thing that creates stress and anxiety and all this physical kind of stuff happening in their body through to the same person doing the same thing and enjoying it and having a completely
different literal, different physiological, emotional and psychologic experience further down the track doing the same thing, and trying to figure out, how do we have do we as individuals and we can't with everyone, but how do we try in ourselves to create a less traumatic physical response to some of those things that it's almost like we are creating the trauma.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and you know, just to put in a disclaimer that we should distinguish that there are real phobias out there that can be very paralyzing, and we certainly don't mean to belittle those with this conversation, But what you're suggesting, Craig is much more minor on non clinical phobia that just slows people down on a daily basis. For seemingly no good reason. And you know this, This I think.
Is a.
Is a trainable entity. There are many books on how to live your life following stoic philosophical principles. I have found those to be immensely helpful. And for those who think stoicism is just like ignoring your emotions, that's not what it is. It is basically learning how to detect your emotions, appreciating them for what they are and nothing more, but then utilizing your resources and your intellect to evaluate
those emotions and respond more productively. Okay, and stoicism gives you a wide variety of psychological tools that you can use to train yourself in that regard. That's something most people can do in the comfort of their own home and buy themselves. But if you're struggling with it, stoicism is basically the foundation for CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, and if you need to seek out a therapist to help guide you to develop these habits, cognitive behaviorable behavior therapist
is what you want to seek out. They will teach you how to put that space in between your emotions and your response.
UBST.
It's pretty remarkable that CBT is a relatively recent psychological phenomenon of psychological practice, but it really has its roots two thousand years ago with the Greek and Roman Stoic philosophers. I just find that fascinating. They figured this out so long ago, and we just kind of rediscovered it now.
And it's a good thing because, like you said in your examples, Craig, there's so many people worrying over such minutia and trivial things, and I know they can seem really worriten to you in the moment, but if you can learn to reevaluate some of those feelings that are being generated by your body, you really can get better at it and develop more productive responses down the road.
You know what's interesting about you know, obviously the Stoics and philosophers and theologians and in different cultures gurus like they've been around forever, not literally but a long long time, but in the evolutionary timeline, like psychology is five minutes old. But yeah, we all grew up going all psychology psychology, but for most of most of humanity it wasn't even it wasn't even a thing. I think eighteen seventy the term was coined or I think the first kind of
what they would call psychological research. I forget the guy's name. It was a German dude, but psychology as a field of study and research, and even that name, it's five minutes old. And then you think about, as you say, what Socrates and Marcus Aurelius and you know, all of those dudes and some due debts. I'm sure we're talking
about two two and a half thousand years ago. It was really is really the foundation of so much wisdom around just being a human, what it is to be a human and to interact with other humans, and to learn how to self regulate and self manage and mind your mind and mind your emotions and mind your behaviors. Like none of this stuff that we're talking about today is even remotely new. You know, it's been you would know, yeah,
I mean, and none of us knew. It's like that, you know, the beginning of wisdom is to know, because my you know, to know thy self, which is I think two and a half thousand years old. That quote, give or take depending on you know, and that was I've taken it out, but that was. That was the first sentence in the intro to my thesis. It might go back in. But it's funny you quote all of these researchers. It's like, you know, dat our twenty twenty one and then you go Socrates five hundred BC. Yeah,
two words theyself. Yeah, likely all you need to do.
But yeah, but you know there's that know theyself seems like a simple phreeze and it's a valuable one, but there's a lot to unpack there.
Well, that's that's right. It's like it's like it's analogous to saying to somebody, you know, don't worry. It's like, well, that's cool, but I need a bit more than that, Yeah, because that's not a strategy or a plan. There's no. That's almost like an instruction, as know thy self is. It's it's a good instruction, but then we need a little bit more to know. Yeah, good, okay, I get that, But what does that mean? And how do I do that? Yeah?
Well, as Bobby McFerrin would say, you know, don't worry be happy, you.
Know, which is another Okay, Well how do I do that?
And there are tools out there that can help you that.
The whole realm of positive psychology.
Is kind of centered on these principles that recognize that human brains, probably all primate brains, have a strong negativity bias. It was good for you when you were being chased by predators and looking for food and trying to survive the elements. We don't live in that world anymore. So what we waste a lot of that stress on is
our social interactions. And I'm not trying to diminish the importance of our social interactions, but there are things that we do in society that we should analyze before pursuing them. This relentless pursuit up the up the ladder of success for what you know, get to a rung where you're comfortable, and then just start living your life.
You know.
Don't let life pass you by trying to reach up for another rung on this endless ladder, you know. So that's just one really important lesson you can learn and when you embrace some of these principles, and it certainly doesn't mean that you can just sit back on your couch, kick off your shoes and just you know, rest for the remainder of your life. That's not really what positive
psychology it's about. It's about channeling your efforts and your energies into more productive things than worry and anxiety, because that doesn't help anything. It just shortens your life and it makes you miserable. You can extract the energy that's being put into those feelings and put it into something tangible. Okay, that's really going to make a difference. You know, maybe you can rate something, maybe you can go march for
a cause, maybe you can get into politics. You can channel those energies into something that's going to to help solve the problem.
One hundred percent. Yeah, we we do have a capacity to invest a lot of energy and things that we can't control or change. And there's I don't know if I've mentioned this to you, but there was a lady
who recently brought out a book. Sorry everyone that you've heard this twenty times, but it's called Bad Therapy Buyer, an author and a researcher called Abigail Schreier, and she talks about you know that that some for some people, talk therapy is not great because it means every Tuesday they go and sit down with you know, Brian or Gail and talk about the same stuff they talked about
the last ninety two sessions. Some people, of course, it's more than that, but for some people that's not the best. But I also think back to your you know, the success ladder, Like I think part of the challenge and I know we've got to wind up soon, but part of the challenge is because most of us me anyway, and I'm sure Tiff, I don't know about you, Doc, but we kind of grew up in Australia. The culture and the collective mindset is that success is about stuff.
It's about things. It's about you know, what you have and what you earn, and what your own, and what you drive, and where you live, and what people think to you, what people say about you, and your brand and your credibility and your academic achievements and your bank balance and your body and like it's about all of these external things. And we have this. When I have, I will be successful when and then you get to there.
And I did this when I was fortunate in that I kind of had some success when I was in my early thirties, and by the time I was in my early thirties, I was more commercially succescessful then I ever thought I would be in my life. But at the same time, I was maybe the most sad and anxious and not sleeping, and I'm like, how does this work?
I'm in inverted commas successful so externally from there outside looking in, my life's Hollywood and people would say you're killing it, You're going oh, and I'll be like yeah, And then but internally I'm like, why do I feel like shit? And I think that the you know, this story that we have is when I own that or do this or achieve that or look like that, then I will be the opposite of everything. You know. I won't be anxious, I will be calm, I will be joyful,
I will sleep well, I won't be insecure. All of these great and then you do those things and you're like, none of that's true. I'm still insecure.
You know. You can see that example plead out in many celebrities who are so miserable they turned to drugs and alcohol in order to escape what from the outside looks like a glorious life. But like you said, they're miserable, and no amount of money, no amount of houses or boats or jewelry, none of that can satiate the human
desire for more. And I think culture has a lot to do with this, because, like you said, we are raised in this culture that your value in life is based on what's in your checkbook or what's in your bank, and that's total bullshit. Your measure, your value in life is the character that you exude, okay, and how you treat other people in your life. That's what And scientific studies have backed up what philosophers and many theologians have
been telling us for years. The key to happiness is not in external things like money and cars and jewelry. It's in internal things. And what that means, of my understanding of it is it's how you, you know, build your character and recognize someone else's character. It's basically being good to yourself, allowing yourself to you know, to feel pleasure from very simple things, and you know, extending that
same kindness to another person. Many studies have shown that gratitude, humility, and generosity are much more likely to make you feel not only temporary happiness, but sustained contentment than any amount of money or luxury.
Well, yeah, I mean it's I think like we think that of course, because that's how we're all programmed that money equals wealth. And I'm like, well, money's a race. Money's not bad by the way, of course, like lots of money. Cool. If somebody said, Craig, you can get paid X tomorrow or ten x, I'm choosing ten X. But I'm not thinking that TENX is going to make me a better human and a better person or a
happier person necessarily at all. But I talk about wealth in terms of like social wealth, emotional wealth, spiritual wealth, and psychological wealth, and looking at those bank balances or those those kind of that kind of you know, because as you say, and of course there's a practical reality. We've got to pay the bills and feed the kids and send them to school, of course, but there is a you know, there is definitely a kind of an internal kind of ledger as well. Mate, We've got to go.
One of my proudest moments on this podcast in seventeen hundred and eight episodes is getting you to say bullshit. So thank you. Couldn't be prouder. Couldn't be prouder if I opened the swearing door about a year and a half ago and he just finally walked through it. So my work is done. Thank you everybody. This will be my last, No, it won't be, mate. So Doctor Bill's book is pleased to meet me. Jeans, germs, and the
curious forces that make us who we are. If people want to follow you or connect with you, do you want them to do that? And if so, how do they do that? Oh?
Absolutely, they can find me at author Bill Sullivan dot com.
Perfect. All right, we'll say goodbye here, but for the moment, Tiffany and Cook, thank you, Thanks guys, doctor Bill, thank you, My pleasure.