I'll get at like com fro another in storming the show, Tiffany and Cook over there at Bloody typ Central High Cook High, Harps, how.
Are you very good? Very good?
Thanks?
What's bloody going on? It's maybe two weeks post India? Have you still got the aura? Have you still got the vibe? Are you still? Are you still at one with all things?
I definitely do. But I wouldn't mind sitting on that mountain again. I would like to be up there, you know, just every few days, just a morning on the mountain.
Well, the closest thing that I know personally to an enlightened being has joined us on the show.
So if you want to get a little bit of your zen and a little bit.
Of your calm back. In fact, I didn't think of this till right now, but Nicki Morrison.
High, Hey, how's it going?
Oh good, really good? Thank you. I didn't tell you.
I didn't tell you this, But if you tell Nikki forgive.
I know our listeners no, but.
Yes, so give her the snapshot of what happened while you were there on real.
Oh so I went on a seven day retreat in the Himalayas. Oh yeah, Oh it was amazing. My friend Jim Fuller, he runs the retreat, he did some facilitated stuff. The first two knights were at a temple nestled at the bottom of the Himalayas in a village called Nagga run by the religious family. And then Papu, who is the son of Fama who runs the temple, he led our tour. We did some facilitated stuff. It was it moved me. It was amazing sitting above the clouds for seven days and at them.
Like during the retreat, with the periods where you had to be silent or was there it was just time out from your normal life.
Yeah, So day four that all of our hiking was in silence. So that was a really really spiritual and deep day. And then we at the probably the midpoint of that day, we did a ritual, a letting go ritual where we burned the things that we didn't that we wanted to leave on the mountain and it was There were tears and a couple of other things happened up there, but it.
Was a powerful action.
It's powerful. Nick changed me. Like the things I burned I carried around for forty years didn't come home.
But when you go with that intention of I'm here, I'm icknowledged, acknowledging them, and now I'm ready to release them.
Yeah, and that's exactly what happened. And I didn't expect that. It was in the moment that right before Papu lit the match and I and I put the paper onto it. In that moment, I just closed my eyes and I expressed gratitude for whatever the reason that i'd held that, for whatever purpose it served, and I just felt like that was a you know, those things that happen and you, not from you kind of thing. I was like, oh, that was interesting. I didn't plan to do that.
And I think so often what comes out of us is what needs to come out of us. When we're just open and in a space where there is a chance to be quiet and still and out of our normal daily life, then those things had the chance to surface. Amazing, Well done, Thank you, thank you beautiful.
You are quite different.
I like, well, not I like that because you're different, but I like it for you because it seems. Spirituality is an interesting construct or an interesting thing. Sorry I should sound less like a scientist, but it's an interesting thing because it's a really slippery thing. It's like it's trying to define spirituality in a meaningful way that doesn't sound cheesy or bullshitty. It's pretty hard, yes, but it's
like there's something about your energy that's quite different. And it's not that it's not that you've had to shift in attitude, although that may have happened as well. But you know, when you see someone and there's something's changed about their mind so they're thinking a bit differently. It's very cognitive, it's very cerebral, and you know, but then there's sometimes something else happens and it's like, oh yeah, and like, I'm not pissing in your pocket. I don't
think you're the dell Alama. I think you've got a way to go, as do we all as do we, But it's like for you, there is you know, there is something that's quite different about your energy and about you know, being around you. Not that I've been around you much, but you know what I mean, it's yes, so it's good, it's good. I mean, well done. What do you moving forward? Do you intend to have? This is weird too, but a spiritual practice or what's that look like?
Ah, even as you described that whole not being able to put words to things I agree with that. I find it hard. I feel different doing different, and I can't really wrap words around what that is, means or looks like. So I'm saying with this question, yes, but it's this process of letting it unfold and being aware and knowing, Like I think letting go is a big part of like surrender. I have this thing about surrendering, and I feel that that's a big thing that happened.
I've tried to let go, like I've tried really hard.
To let go, damn it.
For a long time.
I've been aware of that as being an issue holding onto stuff, and I really feel like that started to be a process that's happened. So it's sitting in the middle of it, going how much perspective can I keep as I now move forward and stay here and move forward and don't go back, but don't try too hard, Like I don't know, I don't know what it's going to look like.
Ups And if it sounded like you to we went on the retreat with an intention, whether you were conscious of it or not, and because you had an intention and you were open, whatever the process was, it sounds like to me there's been a shift on a deep level within you that might not come to light until later on down the track that that shift has happened, and it's it's irreversible because you were you were present to it and you were open to it and accepting on it.
And it's that that like coming back and going did I do that?
Yeah? Totally, I do it?
Does it like what do I do with this understanding now? And I don't incorporate it or not? Maybe more to the point.
Yeah, totally. And I think sometimes we don't have to overthink it. We can just for me sometimes I'm like, Nikki, get out of your head and just just be open to it. Just say for me, I'm open to whatever you have to teach me, whether it's now or down the track. But I thank you for the the grace to stay open.
M I think that's the trick Nick and Ti if I think part of it is is to get your mind out of the way. Is like I think your mind, you know, like the mind is a two edged sword, you know, because it can be it can solve all these problems, and it can create all these problems out of thin air. And so like trying to manage your
mind and trying to understand your mind. But I think, I think one of the things for us when you know and people grow No, I grew up in a really religious and then less religious and more spiritual kind of for a while and quite a while, and it's like, there's so much stuff that doesn't make sense in inverted
commas logically right. And because it doesn't, because we can't put it in a box or measure it or poke it or feel it or touch it or quantify it, we go, oh, that must be bullshit, which is a really arrogant thing to think, because what we're saying is, well, if I don't understand it, then must be bullshit, because I'm a genius, you know, whereas the truth is of all there is to know, Like we don't know what we don't know, and you know, it's just like being
I think, not being gullible or vulnerable in a bad way, but being open in a curious way.
Yesterday when I was talking to Bobby, and the first thing I said to him was this reference. And I say it often about time feels warped to me, and I've always said since COVID, And remember perhaps the other day I said to you about the last four years, which show that just dawned on me. Now, so it is a thing that time was warped to me and it goes so fast. But then I realized that when I came back, I wanted to stop all this rushing.
I've listened to an audiobook on one point one. I haven't listened to anything audio at under one point five speed before, or I have walked at normal walking pace without rushing. Like I'm doing everything without rushing, and I'll be interested to see what my relationship with time starts to look and feel like over time. Now I'm not rushing.
Wow, like we're rushing to nowhere in particular, that's the right we're.
You know, trying to live life before before we get their sort of thing.
Yeah, and in the process not living at all.
Exactly because we're so focused on where we've got to get to. And it's like, no, hang on, this is life. This, these are the moments of life. And more and more I'm conscious of that, you know, often walking around or whatever and rushing around and it's like no, Nikki, don't just look at the flower. Actually stop and smart because in my head it's like, oh, I'll do that another day. It's like, no, you ain't so poor. Now be in this moment. Now open your eyes to what's in front of you.
Right now, Nicky, can I just ask you to give us a little bit of a snapshot because some people will be meeting you for the first time, So correct what I fuck up, and add whatever you want and
subtract whatever you want. But among other things, of course, you and I went to university one hundred years ago, and you did exercise science and you were a year or ahead of me, believe it or not, but she's younger than me, much younger than me, because I started when I was one hundred and four, and then you did. Then you did an honors degree. I think you got offered a PhD scholarship because you're a smarty pants, which you ended up not doing. Then you did nursing, so
you've got multiple degrees. And then you obviously you've worked as a nurse for quite a long time, but now you are working more in the space of pastoral care.
That's right.
I'm still in a hospital setting.
And also you are a death dueler, so you work with a lot of people who are somewhere between pretty sick.
To very very sick.
Too at the end of their life and even being with people as their life is ending. Tell me how that works for one of a better term with your spiritual philosophy and journey, Like, how do it?
Because like is it tricky?
Because you can't impose your values or thinking on people, not at all? So how do you navigate that space where you're with someone who's literally got hours to live or days to live and you're just being with them?
I think, for me, when I'm in those situations, it's incredibly important that I'm grounded and mindful of the situation and also the fact that it's not about me. This is about me what can I bring to this situation? So take my personality out of it and almost sort of step into how can I be of use in
this situation? And for whatever anyone believes in, but for me, I sort of I believe in a universal energy and spirit, And so in those moments, I sort of offer out a prayer and say, use me as your hands and your feet be my voice for me. Whatever you need, show me how to do it for you, what you
need for this person in this moment. I don't quite know how oft to put it, But it's being very conscious of the fact that it's not about me, that it's about being mindful and respectful and also being prepared for anything, because in those sorts of situations, you open the door and you step in, and you don't necessarily
know what you're stepping into. If you're stepping into, you know, family situation with their loved one, or if there's adversity in that situation, if there's harmony, you just don't know. And so it's a real for me active trust of I'll be guided in how to navigate it.
I'll be guided, and I guess there would be at times it would be volatile because people could be upset or angry or you know whether or not that's family or the person, or confused or just I would guess a huge range of kind of feelings and emotions, and you know, scenarios that you have to navigate as both a medical professional but also as somebody who's there to really to I guess, comfort and reassure people.
And it depends a lot on the circumstances in terms of if the person is dying, if that's been expected, or in terms of their age. So many factors come into it that can determine what the atmosphere is like in a given situation. You know, I've been in some situations where I've sort of had to facilitate different members of the family not being in the room at the
same time because they're strange. And other times it's been absolutely tragic circumstances, someone who was, you know, in the prime of their life, young, their life ahead of them, so to speak, and whatever is, and they die. And in other instances it's been where people have gone down the route of the voluntary system dying process, and so they've actively said this is how I'm going to die. This is the day that I'm going to die, this place and the situation, the circumstances I'm going to die.
It's each one is its own unique experience and needs to be approached and respected.
So the idea of for many of us, the idea of choosing the day that you will die, the time that you will die, how you will die, who will be there or not be there, you know, basically orchestrating
your death. And of course this is for people who I mean quite a few medical hoops need to be jumped through and they meet certain criteria and they have terminal illnesses and all of those things, of course, but to a lot of us, just that thought is it's very hard to get our head around, and like on a level some people, I'm sure some people would go, I totally get it, some people would say, I'm not sure, and some people would go, under no circumstances like that
shouldn't be allowed to happen or tell us about, you know, because you're there, like you are the person helping that person transition.
Which I think is the word that you use.
Yeah, And I mean those instances when I've been in the voluntary system dying space. It's the most beautiful and peaceful and serene experiences of death that I've experienced as a pastal error and as a jest in the sense that, again, we all have our own thoughts and ideas and values around this, and I'm not trying to deny that or
diminish that in any way. But until someone is in the position where they are terminally ill and they only have a certain or finite period of time left for them being able to have something that they can have some autonomy over in a situation where pretty much everything else is out of their control. That can just become a sense of I'm still here, i still exist, will have a say here. And that's not to say that in the medical world, you know the patient and the family,
they're not. Of course, they're considered and consulted absolutely as they should be. But so much is out of your control. When you're in hospital, you're totally vulnerable, you're out of you, you're out of your own familiar environment. You become you take on the identity of a patient as opposed to you know, hang on a minute, I'm still Sarah, and i still work here, and I've still got this life, and I'm still a mom, and I'm still a sister,
and I'm still a daughter, I'm still a friend. So much of that just falls into the background because rightly or understandably, the focus is on the illness and the treatment and the management and whatever whatever the case may be. And I see it as part of my responsibility to see the person and to remind them you're still you. You're still Sarah, You're still a mother, you're still a wife, you're still a daughter, you're still a teacher, You're still
all those other roles in your life. And this is an experience that you were having in your life, but it's not all of you. And there aren't any easy answers or solutions or generalizations. They just aren't. But I remember having a conversation with a patient, probably a couple of months ago, and she had made the decision to proceed with her application for voluntary sister buying. And I
think she was I'm forty five. I think she was maybe a few years older than me, And I remember her saying, until I got into this position, as cancer and it's termined on the prognosis wasn't long until I actually got into this position, I didn't actually know if I would choose this. But now that I'm in it, and that she's been through years of treatment, she's exhausted
all options. Her body is being through like ten marathons with all the treatment that go through, She's like, enough, Now this is my choice and this is the dignity of mine, and so I'm going to step into that.
Wow.
I don't know if this is an appropriate or a dumb question, but we can cut it out, could you? What is it like being with someone? And I'm sure it varies, but as they breathe their last breath, do you?
And I mean, I don't know what I'm asking, but I just want, like I've been around people that are dying or you know, it's like when the Crab died in the gym, it was all very busy and traumatic and obviously he came back to life seventeen minutes later, but it was all very But you're in a very different kind of setting and energy.
What is it like as you go on that journey with someone?
And I think, firstly, just in reference to your experience with the Crab, totally different situation in that it's an acute situation. It's an emergency situation that the intention for everyone in that situation is to present, Whereas in the circumstances where I work, the intention is there, that's the end goal that we're all working towards. As whatever that
may sound like, it's the truth. And I think it's important that just as human beings, we get more comfortable with saying that, because death is going to be truth for all of us. But the thing is, it's you know, I'm such a medicalized process and issue and almost in some instances, not all by all, by any means, but in some instances, death or no further treatment. It's like
we've failed. It's no because death is going to come anyway, and that person has done what they've wanted to do in terms of their preserving their life to that point, and now they're making a decision. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm choosing another way. I'm choosing a quality of life as that whatever that means for me and mean different things to every single person. For some people,
quality of life is dying with no pain. Father's quality of life means dying in a room surrounded by their loved ones who toast them as they take their lives. For others, dying can be a ninety five year old lady who set all her goodbyes and asked me, a complete stranger, to be her duella, because she wanted some She didn't want family, she didn't want any of that stuff. She just wanted to go go out in her own home without any emotionally.
I imagine, Nikki, that.
Do you like with the hypothetical lady that you just mentioned that it's ninety five, chooses to end her life with you by her side doing your job. It's not really a job, it's more a calling. I feel at a job, it's like not quite adequate, but anyway, doing what you do, but choosing to have you with her as she transitions or as she dies. How like when do you meet? How does it work? When do you meet her? Do you do you meet with her leading up to that day? Do you build a relationship? I'm
sure you don't. Oh, I don't know.
I don't know.
I was going to say, I'm sure you don't rock up on the day and go, are you the one that's dying?
I think it?
Do you know?
Yeah? No, totally work.
In that particular instance, a colleague referred me to the lady because my colleague knew that I was a deaf doller and knew that the lady wanted to have someone who was completely removed from her world and could just be there in a nursing and also supportive capacity to support her to take her medication and to die.
So and why did she choose that? Like? Why did she?
And there's no judgment in here, just curiosity because was I'm guessing I'm probably wrong, But she didn't want she didn't want to make people sad or uncomfortable or.
Yeah, I knew this lady I guess from start to finish about a period of six weeks. I met her when she was at the beginning of her application process voluntary sister dying, and I was in that sort of process that the individual needs to have a contact person. But this lady nominated me to be her contact person. And she didn't want to nominate anyone in her family, any friends, or anything like that. She just wanted someone who was completely neutral. And again that was unique to
this circumstance. Quite often, in other circumstances, a spouse will be the contact person, or a sister or a brother, or a friend, or someone who's intimately involved with that person. This particular lady, she was ninety five, her husband had died many years ago, as sons lived, both of them were living inter state, and she said to me, Nicky, I've said everything I wanted to say to them. I've had all the conversations. I just don't I don't want to I don't want to do any of that anymore.
I've said my goodbyes, I've made my piece of the situation. This is why I'm taking this direction, I think, and everyone's different, but that's how she wanted to go out those were her terms that she wanted to go out on.
And the people that you've sat with in those last to feel free to ask a question, because this is fascinating. The people that you sit with as they, you know, take their last breath and the you know they administered the drugs or whatever it is, are they did, I feel like I'd go, oh fuck, wait on, hang.
On, I'm not sure, like I'm not I'm not trying to be a dickhead.
No, no, no, no.
The people are they? They come? Are they? I'm sure it's different.
But yeah, it is different. And for the majority of the ones that I've been involved in, it's been a conscious and united choice by the individual and they've been supported by their family members because often in the settings that I work in, the family have supported their loved one to quite and link the honest and just the absolute marathon that can be medical and hospitalizations go on for you sometimes and can involve multiple different treatments and
can just be a really grueling journey, grueling for everyone because not only does the individual patient go through it, to a person go through it, their loved ones go through it with them exactly at the same time, and quite often with the loved ones. There is I'm not trying to diminish what the patient goes through, but it is torture in some instances to see your loved one
in pain and suffering and you can't change. And that's Those are a lot of the conversations that I have with partners or cares or family members that often the words to me are, I can't do anything. I've got nothing to give. No. I think we need to look at that a bit more closely. You're here, you're supporting them, you're loving them, you are literally companioning them into their
next next phase of life. You are actually giving them the greatest love of all because yes it's painful, Yes you'd rather they stay here, but you're putting that aside because this is where they need to go. You're showing up.
In those moments after Nikki for you. Do you feel sad?
It can depend on the circumstances give in that in some instances. But being such a ruling, drawn out road, it's there's a sense of that they're not suffering anymore. And and but more importantly than that, they've gone out
on their terms. They went out exactly as they wanted to and the privilege to be able to facilitate something like that someone who's gone through an experience of being unwell to then have the capacity, autonomy, the power to say, I'm choosing now, I'm choosing now, Because when you got to treatment, yes you can choose if you want to keep going and everything, but in treatment it's all on you know, treatment and then the side effects. Managing that
and managing the follow up. The surveillance is an absolute commitment and dedication of the person and the family. So for them to then have that power of choice given back to them to say I choose now, it's ordinary.
And now of you, has it been a process of how do you protect you? How do you protect your emotional wellbeing? And things that might be brought up?
Yeah, of course unfortunate in the sense that I work closely with my colleagues and so we can debrief with each other and support each other. And I have my own sort of practices in my own life that's support and nurture my well being physically, mentally, and emotionally and spiritually. So in that sense, h whether this sounds bizarre or not for me, it's I wouldn't I choose to be there. If I can support someone in their choices, it's my
privilege to have any part in that. Yeah, And to facilitate someone being able to step into their own choice, that is an absolute privilege and honor.
I feel like similarly to the kind of resilience and adversity mindset, and I have a lot of those conversations that relate to boxing in the physical world as well, but just makes me think of how the impact of what you see and go through and then how you process finding joy, Like I imagine if I'm wrong, that you now have it an innate ability to find joy and beauty in really tough situations, and that is a gift.
And I feel like if we could take insights from that, that could be really powerful in life.
That's why I want to say, there are some instances where I just need to go and have a crime because they just rip your heart out. And again it's circumstance by circumstance. But overall, what I what I try to approach this role with is it's not about me. It's about how can I be of service? How can can I be of loving service? Here doesn't mean it's all hearts and rainbows because it's not because sometimes it's bloody, ugly, and it's rugged and it's painful. You know, it's just painful.
But having said that, I still see it as my role to hold space for that and to give witness to that, give it the respect of bearing witness to it.
Nick, can I ask sometimes when I'm listening, like I've been listening to YouTube for the last five and sitting back more as a listener than a host, right, And then I think, if I was in the car listening to this, what would I want to ask?
Niki?
And maybe no one else would want to ask this, but I would want to ask you. If I just heard you and I didn't know you, I would want to hear what is your spiritual practice like? Could you I don't know if you're comfortable, and I'm sure it varies a bit day to day, but could you tell us what that looks like for you in the real world, because I feel like, not only emotionally, mentally and practically do you need to be ready, but you need to be spiritually ready to do what you do to be
as a functional and well as you are. So what is your spiritual practice? If you could try to describe that, Yeah, it's.
An ongoing, evolving experience process. And the more I sort of go along this road, the more I sort of realized what I don't know, and that's not a bad thing. More about being open and curious, and if I'm less sort of baggage I bring to it, the more receptive
hopefully I'll be to what is actually out there. And I know that probably sounds quite I know, airy fair, and I don't mean it that way at all, because for me, my spirituality is very much about you know, action, faith in action, you know, stepping into things that get the shit out of me. It's like, nah, you've put your hand up to be of service, then you go. And so it can be quite gritty at times as well.
And then I sort of nourish my own self with things like nature, with my meditation practices, my yoga practices, with the reiki that I practice. Being out in nature is it just soothes my soul. I don't know how else to describe it. When I'm out in nature, everything else just slips away and I just become present what's around all of us. You know, the sort of the noise in my head just get a little bit quieter.
And it's like open your ears, open your eyes, open your heart to what is here for all of us, right here, right now. I'm not special, I'm not anyone different at all. I'm just doing this human gig too. But I guess I have an intention of being open to and growing my awareness of what can't I see, what can't I necessarily touch, but what what I believe is out there? And I don't know what it is that's out there, but I in my heart, I believe there's something greater than all this that is out there,
and that's for me. Hopefully that will be a lifelong curiosity and journey and navigation.
And well, and I love it.
And no one's got to handle on it. No one's got to handle on it's this or it's that. We've all got ideas, and you know, we all need to have those things that help us to feel comfortable with our own values and our own practices. And I understand that and I have them myself. But I think also for me, as I got continue to go along, it's like what do I need to let go of? Here?
What do I need to let go of? Yes? I like that because it makes me feel comfortable and fixed in with it, I think, But is it actually just is that purely I hold on to it because it's purely selfish or fear based or pride based or whatever. Or is it Am I really willing to show up and stand naked, eat an open be an open hard I should say?
Hm, wow, wow, so good, so good.
I just get a little bit lost sitting there, thinking I don't feel like a host anymore.
I feel like a student.
I've had this most beautiful saying, we're all just walking each other home.
Oh God, don't make me cry.
The most beautiful thing. But that's what we're all doing. We're all just walking at each other home.
Wow. I wonder what home looks like exactly.
I want to thank you for jumping on because we had somebody out and I buzzed you on very short notice and said, could you have a chat to us? I said, I'm not sure what about Really, we had an idea, we didn't do the idea, and this was much This was much better than my fucking dumb idea.
No anytime.
Thank you, Nick, stay there, we'll say goodbye off air. But Tiff, thank you, Nikki, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Tiff, thank you all right, thanks ladies.