I get a team with Bloody rolling. We started the good stuff before we press the go button. So fuck it. I've just put the pause button on Ben Sury, Tiffany and called Craig Ethney half of the You Project. We're just talking, Ben Surry, welcome officially to the typ Thanks for joining.
Us, thanks for having me, thanks for being hat champion.
Now we're just talking about your aversion to dogs, but your love of cats and Tiff was a little bit upset. Let's unpack that. What's she suggested you might be a sociopath. I want to hear your defense.
I have a very clear defense to go straight to my backstory. I grew up on a farm in New Zealand and dogs are working animals, so you don't play with that.
In fact, you're not even allowed to play with them, otherwise you might ruin them and they can't mustard the sheet properly. So you know, you guys can come back at me with something now if you like. But what do you go?
That's Tiff, what do you I can't see your dog must doing anything other than the cat, and I feel like your cat's more likely to muster your dog. So your two animals apart from being cute, are fucking useless.
Yeah, I was going to I agree with you there, Craig. I do look at the domestic dogs in Melbourne. I think they are quite useless. They couldn't muster a sheep or be of.
Any use on a farm.
No, they couldn't must for a fucking butterfly.
Anyway, they muster my emotions. Doesn't that count? That's a bit of a fun that does count.
Yeah, that doesn't. They have definitely corralled you into the top emotional paddock and they've got you stuck in the corner like a fucking in an emotional prison, with the keys being held by a fucking dog and a cat being helped to ransom in your own place. Hey, beneficially, thanks for coming on the show. You're a busy man, and yeah, we appreciate you taking the time.
That's an absolute pleasure to chat with you.
Now without me doing some boring monologue about how amazing you are and all the shit you've done. Can you give to seven people on in my audience who don't know you. I'm suggesting the majority do that who don't know you. Can you give us the self bio? What do you you know when people don't know you, which I'm sure happens periodically, and they go, what do you do? What's the answer to that?
I hate talking about myself in that way, but I guess I'm a chef.
I own a restaurant called Attica in Melbourne.
I live a very passionate life and I'm into people and everything kind of I come from New Zealand and I'm a dad friend trying not to fuck anything up too much.
That's kind of generally my my idea.
Well, you fucked it up with TIF straight out of the gates, so you've got about now to repair that damage relationship with B.
I'll try hard.
I feel like you're an uh. I was going to phrase say frustrated, but definitely not frustrated, but I feel like you're an artist. Like I knew of you, but didn't You and I had a brief chat the other day for about thirty nine seconds, and I've got to know each other a little bit. I knew about Attica,
I knew about you, but I didn't know you. But the more I've been having to look at your stuff and reading about you and listening to a bit recently, I feel like you're really just an artist who expresses himself in different ways.
That's an interesting take that you get straight to that there's a history of shit of sort of ridiculing chefs that call themselves artists.
So there's always that kind of.
History in that part of our culture where I'm kind of reluctant to call myself an artist. But certainly the project of the restaurant is an art project. You know, it's not a it's not really like a business that makes a lot of sense.
It's fairfully independent.
We work with people for more many backgrounds, from artists to writers, to musicians, to makers to growers, and it's just a really fun project that's sort of full passion and where we really get to expect express ourselves creatively in any way we.
Want to m when you're growing up on that farm with those dogs that you treated like bloody slaves. Sorry, Tiff, I don't want to keep opening that wound. What did you think you were going to do when you were in inverted commas? Big?
When I was big? What do you mean, like like, you know, when.
You're an actual when you were grown up?
What did you what did you what did you want to do?
Maybe Well, the only thing I ever wanted to do from day dot, really from as young as I can remember, and it even sort of predates my memory, was to become a shift So that starts at h five for me. And I'm absolutely certain about that. Why I was so certain, I'm not entirely sure. I mean, it's definitely growing up around the love of cooking and being so so close to primary ingredients and my mother making food from our farm and from the land.
But there was no cooks in my family. It wasn't really a thing in the early eighties.
It's not like it is now where people become famous and have large followings, and it's just a completely different time. So I guess my desire to become a shift just came from a pure love of cooking.
And what is it like to I mean, it's a dumb question, but I'm genuinely curious to have to have a business that's been called one of the top Well is one you and I chat the other day about how do you even evaluate that? But it is regarded as one of the best restaurants or top fifty in the world. I don't know how many fucking restaurants there are,
well but let's just go with a shitload. Does that make you feel proud or uneasy or like, I'm sure that's a great achievement or a great accolade at the very least, But how does that sit with you?
It's a very odd thing for me, because you know that there's never been the reason for the work. You know, like I said, the work is about being with an incredible team of people and serving an amazing group of customers and doing this thing with all of your heart and mind really, and there's other stuff that kind of comes along, these things that other people bestow upon you, but also can kind of remove very easily as well.
It's a bit odd because I've been very careful, Craig.
To sort of never attach an even my personal work to these sorts of awards, and at different times I've appreciated them, particularly in my early years. But you know, you win something, if you let that go to your head, it'll also destroy you. You know, if you think the work's done and that there's effectively there's an awards ceremony, you're anointed whatever you are, and then the next day the work has to begin again. And so pretty early on I learned that that wasn't the reason for it.
I don't know how.
It makes me feel just kind of odd, Like like we discussed yesterday, you know, how can you really say what the top fifty restaurants in the world are, Like, that's not really possible, actually, and there's a lot of people that.
That don't get the attention that they should for various reasons.
I think it's quite I don't know if you did that accidentally or intentionally or intuitively, but that that thing not to attach your self worth or your identity to the thing that you're good at, or like, you know, to an award or a brand or a that's quite smart because my experience is when people have their identity intertwined with their accolades or their you know, the status of their business or their career, at that point in time, when that goes away, they're fucked because you know that
that thing that made them them that isn't there anymore, and then they don't know who the fuck they are.
No, And I couldn't agree more or and it's something to be so cautious of. I wrote a line recently which I was proud of, which which which which says most climbers are killed on the descent. And by that I mean you know, actually physically on Everestore or any other huge mountain that's you know, you're tied you on the way down, that's when it gets to you run
out of oxygen or the storm overcomes you. But also in that sense of like socially climbing or climbing the ladder of fame and awards and accolades, nobody can ever stay on top forever. And so if you don't have some sort of central values to latch onto and to lock onto that, and you don't if you're doing it for the wrong reasons, you know, and they can never be for fame.
Actually, because that's that's just just fleeting.
And and if you're not prepared for that to leave you, like if you don't understand it, that's just temporary or not even real, and then you're going to get really lost when that goes.
Yeah, that's so interesting. I wrote a book years ago, I don't know, fifteen years ago, one of my books, and in this I have this pretend conversation with this dude,
which was really a reflection of many actual conversations. But it goes something like, so I sit down with a client, which I used to I used to own gyms and stuff, which you know, And I'd sit down with people who'd come in because they want to, you know, change their body, their mindset, habits, behavior's outcome, health, blah blah blah blah blah.
And I'd go, so, tell me about you, and then they'd tell me about their business, or then they'd tell me about their brand, or then they'd tell me about their address where they live. Then that tell me about their kids or that. I go, yeah, cool, that's all good. But none of that is you tell me about you. Don't tell me about where you live, or what you drive, or what you own, or what you earn, or what your job is or where tell me about you. They don't know what the fuck to say because they don't
know who they are beyond all those identifiers. You know. Yeah, it's a philosophical kind of question, isn't it. It is?
And I imagine for a lot of people it's very hard to answer.
But for me personally, you know, my wealth, you know, my personal wealth is never like as a human, is not attached to what I do at the restaurant. I think I can apply my creativity to other things like renovating a house, for example, which I've done multiple times, or skateboarding.
And I've often said.
That this thing that I love doing, which is running this restaurant and with these amazing people, that I never let that die.
You know that I work to protect that.
But when the feeling, the euphoria from creating new things at the restaurant is gone, I will stop doing it and I will look.
To do something else.
So yeah, I just think that, you know, it's just a folly to link yourself to your occupation too much. Try to limit yourself even in that way. I don't think you can really grow if you're not really thinking about who you are.
Do you run the restaurant yourself? Like, are you the are you the day to day boss?
Yes? One of them? Yep, I'm the director, I guess.
I run it with my wife Kylie, so we co run it. But we also have quite a big team. We have forty employees, we have you know, a hitd chef, we have a restaurant manager, we have more junior people, and so there's a good group of us running it actually, But yes, I am their day to day pretty much every day. Still, it's down nineteenth year this year. So yeah, you've got to love it.
You know, what's your what's your take on leadership? Because I mean you got forty people, there's forty personalities, forty humans, forty backstories, forty expectations, you know, psychology, physiology, emotions, sociology. What's your take on leadership and how do you do it?
Well? You know, I'll be honest with you.
In the early days, you know, I started to attic here when I was twenty seven, and I was a completely useless leader.
You know, I don't know how to I don't know how.
To support people or prop people up or you know, give them any kind of feedback, and so like I really failed those early teams, you know. But there's something that I absolutely linked becoming a great leader of something I linked to I guess, the overall performance of the business and not just the performance, but the well being of the people there too. So in the last decade OR worked really hard and one of the things on leadership, but one of the things that I rise over everything
else is directness, respectful directness. Just tell people what you need and what you think, do it in a way that doesn't hurt them.
Do it in a way that they.
Know that you've got their personal growth in mind and that what you're saying is more than benefiting the business, but benefiting them long term too.
So I really acutely disliked bullshit.
So I will kind of sort of leader that will work through the business to kind of eliminate any anything that I think is bullshit that we're doing and not direct because I want to kind of be as direct as I can with our customers in our expression as well creatively.
And there's a variety of.
Things and unusual kind of ways we go about bringing this team together. But I always believe very very strongly that empathy is the oldest sibling of performance. So we need to have an empathetic workplace. That's not to say that that stuff doesn't happen, or things don't go wrong, or sometimes people might.
Have an argument or dislike each other. That's just human nature.
But I guess I'm really talking about eliminating toxic negativity, you know, And so I'm pretty strict on that. Like, you know, whatever's going on in your life, you know, you need to still come to work with a super positive attitude. Now, if you can't, of course, we're going to support you and look after you and try to help you. But really like your personal mental health and your well being in an environment, in a job where it's fair, that you're properly paid, that you're not getting
bullied or harassed. It's your responsibility if those things are straight, you know, And and that begins and ends with me as well. Right, So I can't come to work in a shitty mood with a shitty attitude, because I'm asking my team to come to work with a great attitude and to bring it every day. So no, really, I think the leader has absolutely got to live what they're breaching.
Yeah, that's so interesting. It's I employed con what did I employ about five hundred people over the years in my gyms, and it was a constant juggling act of psychology and sociology and practicality and trying to create that trying to create a place where people want to be ben You know, I do lots of corporate speaking now, and one of the things I ask bosses, managers' leaders is do people want to be in this place? Do
people like coming here? I know there's a lot of other questions after that, but if the answer to that question is no, you've fucked.
So I could not agree more great.
You know what I'm saying. It's like people. It doesn't mean you've got to be their best friend, but if they don't kind of like you or respect you, that's tough. And then if you've got a place of culture and environment that people don't want to be in, fack, there's lots of work to do. So yeah, and it's again with different because you can say one thing to Sally and she's cool, you say the same thing to Tiffany because she's high maintenance and oh sorry, tif oh you
know it's not gonna it's not going to work. And so you've got to navigate this myriad of complex kind of social interactions as well as being tough and strong. That's a real jug, yeah, actor.
It really is.
And I think, you know, I think the main thing that people are listening here and wanting to be better leaders and better in business, the main thing I would say is to is to actually just try try to improve yourself, try to improve your leadership and do it incrementally. But it's pretty easy to think, you know what, I'm
a really shitty leader and I've got no hope. But I would say, just try to change a small thing one percent every day perhaps about what you're doing, and over time and pretty quickly you will realize that you've kind of revolutionized the culture.
To your point about the psychology of workplaces.
I mean, my wife, Kylie, who's really responsible so much for the success of our business.
She's three quarters of the way through a psychology degree.
In no small part to basically deal with exactly what you're saying. You know, humans are complicated in our once and our needs and our desires and our emotion and ups and downs, you know, and that's never going away, no matter how the team you've got, no matter who you select, that's always going to kind of be a constant. But I would say that there's a rule that I kind of apply and I think it's helpful. And I learned this through coaching youth basketball through my son's team.
But I say, the low's never too low and the high is never too high. And by that I mean if you just kind of come through the middle as a leader and you don't overreact when there's a low point in the business or something goes wrong, and if you don't over celebrate something that you've done really well, like just kind of keep it in the middle.
I think there's sort of a security in people for that, you know, like with your.
Team, that the leaders not over celebrating the winds and not and not doubling down and going super aggressive when things go wrong, because they will go wrong, and they go wrong in every business.
And I think the other thing is is from.
The outside people look in it, a successful organization can go well, everything must just be perfectly every day, And the reality is nothing is further from the truth.
And every successful organization is.
Really finding the same problems as any as any other one. And the reality is it's just sort of how you deal with those problems and who you deal with them with. And also think just lastly, you know, not not repeating those same mistakes as a pretty big one on leadership. You know, if something goes wrong, analyze it and you go, you know what, I'm not going to end up back there because that sucked for everybody.
Yeah. Yeah, I read a book years ago which you you're way younger than me, which is fucking annoying. But anyway, so called the myth. Have you ever heard of that book? I have not known? Buck Off all right, anyway. Now it came out the same time as the Bible anyway, so wow, the Old Testament New Testament was proceeded the New Testament. But anyway, a guy called Gerber wrote that, Michael Gerber, I think it was. And the e myth is about this idea, Mike Ben that you've got to
work on the business. Not you've got to work in the business, but to be able to build it and develop it, you've got to be able to step awongeally. It's hard to be objective about the thing that you're in the middle of. And you know, I've always immersed in my business, which sometimes gives me a really good, visceral, subjective experience of what's going on. But it's only when I step back into the macro and out of the micro that I can kind of have that bigger picture vision.
My clumsy, long winded, fucking question is, in terms of your career and Attica and all the things that you do, how much of that is kind of big picture planning, macro strategic, long term timeline projection, and how much is you just in the middle of it being instinctive and intuitive.
It's probably ninety nine percent of me just being in the middle of it, living in the moment, knowing and kind of understanding that the moment, like right now, I'm You're the only thing I can focus on right now, this conversation, this interview. I'm not worried about what's happening
after this. That's really kind of how I go. I really really want to ring the most out of my life that I can, and I've found by absolutely focusing on every day and just living it to the fullest and trying to get the most out of it that.
I've been a lot happier.
I'm not a great forward planner, and I'm not really tremendous at reflecting on the past either, because I've always kind of wanted to evolve. But I'm fortunate in our business that I do have other people who are making those longer term plans.
But for me, a long term plan is a month.
You know, I kind of don't want to talk about, like, unless it's something that's obviously like critical, I don't really want to talk about it, you know.
I kin't want to talk about what are we going to do today again kind of idea. You know.
Yeah, So here's a philosophical question to feel free to jump in. I feel like you might have a question for the great man. My research is around this thing I don't know if I mentioned to you when we chatted the other day called metapception, which is essentially your ability to understand the Ben experience for others. So the question at the core of my research is what's it like being around me for the rest of the world, but my wife, for my kids, for my team, for strangers,
for my customers. What do you think the Ben experience is like for others?
What a fascinating thing to study.
Great I think that's amazing that you've done that, because I think so few leaders actually think about how they're affecting other people, either positively or negatively, and I think we all, to.
Some degree affect other people positively negatively.
I'm acutely aware of of my influence over my team and of others, and that's why I do call myself a leader for my industry, because I think that especially chef's chefs will do anything for each other. We are mad generally, right, like, we have a history of working insane hours and being put through, you know, various forms of kind of torture by our industry and by our employees historically, and so I'm acutely aware of that history and also of my own personal history about how.
I've I've gone through that too.
At the age of forty, I'd already worked the retirement age.
I'd already worked the amount of hours that are somebody.
Retiring at sixty five had, you know, And I did reflect upon that. You know, I probably didn't think that was that well, that's great, you know something. It wasn't paid for them, and so that obviously makes you think about your own, your staff's experience, but also just of
your influence on them. So what I'm kind of what I'm kind of trying to say to you, is that I am really mindful of my own ambition with my employees because there are times literally if I asked them to walk up a cliff with me, they probably would, you know. So I need to be self aware in that way. There's little things that I do, I suppose and little rules that kind of I personally have with
the staff. And one of them is very simple, and I think it's it's not an exceptional rule, but it's just say say hello, how are you to every single person in the building every single day. Yeah, And so, and not in a formulatic way, not going around hi, no, actually genuinely just take thirty seconds.
So just ask hey, how are you?
And you know, occasionally somebody will say, you know what, I'm not great, and I'll say, well, hey, you know what's going on?
You know, and now they may tell me or they may say, no, I'm going to be all right. I'm just I'm just having a bit of a day. But I've got my you know, I focus on the job.
And other times, you know, we'll have a coffee and we'll chat about it, you know, because I guess I'm one of the older members of the team. You know, I've been through most of the struggles that that people go through.
Yeah, so i'd really try to be aware.
I don't think you can ever be fully completely aware of how you are. But one thing I strive not to be is ever harsh, because I think you can really crush somebody, particularly somebody that looks up to you, just by talking to.
Them the wrong way.
And so if I ever do that, which is very rare, and I can think of an example in the last three years where I was actually doing an interview but like this in the office and a young chef is
a really lovely person. Came into the office, came in behind me, and he sort of just started talking to me over my shoulder and ask me questions, and I said, can you just just give me a second, you know, And I was just kind of like frustrated and a bit annoyed, but he's he's such a genuinely beautiful person, and so I huffed at him a little bit and I said, oh god, you know, that would have bloody
crushed him a bit, you know. So a couple of hours later, or an hour later, after I finished that call, I went in and I said, hey, listen, I'm really sorry about that.
And he said, oh, no, no, there was nothing to be sorry about. I shouldn't approach it.
And I said, no, no, I didn't live up to my own expectations. You're a really great person. I'm really sorry about that. And he sort of beamed, you know, and we both knew that was the truth.
You know, that's amazing, well one mate, and I'm not pissing in your pocket. That's amazing awareness, situational self awareness and also social intelligence to know that that's the right thing to do, and humility to be able to go no, mate, I'm the problem. Like that's so. I listened to this podcast the other day and there were these two two people talking and they said this. One of them said
this interesting thing. This so I forget this psychologist. And she said something like, for all of the problems that you have in your life, you're there for one hundred percent of them. That's incredible, right, And also for all the dysfunctional relationships and problems in relationships you've had, you're the only common denominator.
Right. Oh my goodness.
Now that's not to say that's not to say that that person's always the problem, but it's like, it's funny how when people talk about shit, they really go, ah, this is going on in my life with this bloody Ben, Me and Ben. And by the way, I'm the problem. Nobody says that no.
No.
So that awareness, that awareness that you had to go no, made one hundred percent me And that's great and rare.
Thank you.
Well, you know, I think the bucks has stop with me ultimately, you know, if we succeed or fail, it's come and going to be on me.
You know.
I've had some really great teachers in that way though, too. And I'll give you this example of this friend Miriam, who we were having this conversation. She's from South Sudan and we're having this conversation at her place once about this guy that had kind of come in to her garden and just sort of started ranting about how terrible the garden was.
And we were having a bit of a laugh about.
It, and she was saying that being negative is a full time job, and she was joking about how his realist person was really putting.
It back into it. You know, I really committed to it, like.
And I like to have kind of examples of people, you know, who find kind of culpability their own culpability and kind of almost any situation. And for Miriam, you know, had been this experience of racism that was so pervasive when when there was this rhetoric in the media about African games, and she is a migrant, and she said, well, what could I do about this?
You know?
And she decided that she could educate people, that she could bring people into a home and teach her about her culture. And I said, oh my god, you're being subjected to this horrible, horrible racist trope, and yet you are going I'm going to try to find some small solution about it. I'm like, well, what example, what could I possibly have to stop me from not finding some culpability in any kind of aspect of my life. I think,
you know, we're seldom ever completely innocent. I would say that she was completely innocent, but yeah, she is like, well I need to do something about it, you know.
Yeah, that's amazing. It is amazing, and it is it's so easy to be all about problems, and it's so easy to be all about blame and transference and avoidance. But to be able to go you know, it's like when I talk about which people get uncomfortable with. But I was a morbidly obese kid, right I was, I was over I was like ninety five kilos when I was fourteen. I'm eighty five kilos now, and I was six inches shorter and my name at school was Jumbo and all this stuff. Right, But yeah, but I talk
about like I created that, you know. It's like and yeah, I was a kid, but I ate my way into that, and at some stage I needed to take responsibility and go, well, look, nobody's making me sit on the couch, nobody's making me eat all the fucking cake that I love nobody's, you know, and that being being able to be self aware and responsible without the self loathing bend. You know, I think where you're you're just taking ownership without beating yourself up.
There's a big there's a big space between I could do better and I'm a fucking idiot. I always get this wrong, you know, there's.
A big space. Old line thinking is hard. Blaming as easy, isn't it, you know? And I mean that's a you know, that's a profound personal experience that you've had as well, Craig.
You know that's that I can I can relate to that on some levels.
You know. It was also an overweight teenager. You know, it was at one hundred and three kilos at one point, and you know, I went down into the late seventies and now I'm at about age six, and you know, I think also, like for men, it's not like something that it's easy to talk about our weight or our body image, e the you know, something that I've kind of had to come.
To terms with in the last couple of years. I've always struggled with it.
So I really.
Sympathized with you, you know, and understand where you're coming from.
Well, I grew up very much with digressing, but fuck it, this is where we're going. Like, I grew up very much identifying with my body, you know, and I thought because I was, you know, that was my name. My name was my jumbo and you know all that stuff
which my listeners have heard too many times. But you know, being picked last for sporting teams and all those things that come with being unathletic and unfit and fat, and you know, and the social stuff and the emotional stuff and the physiological stuff and the practical stuff, and then it's hard when you Then I got in shape, like you, very fit, very strong, very lean, started to become, probably
in an unhealthy way, obsessive and all that shit. But then then I really started to identify myself capital s self with my body, and they became indistinguishable. Where I went well and if I looked good, I felt better, and if I look put on two kilos, I felt shit. And if someone complimented my appearance, I felt good. And so I was always seeking approval and love and connection
and validation through this thing that I lived in. Right, That's that's a journey, and that's a journey like a lot of people are on I think.
Oh, one hundred percent, such a tough one. You know, it's so difficult.
Yeah, well you and I got through it. I'm still a work in progress though, I'm still a fuck with around food. Hey, I wanted to ask you a little bit about dealing with pressure, like you were talking about the the craziness that goes on in kitchens. When I was a kid, my parents owned a restaurant and sell in a restaurant, and I remember the the interesting chefs, you know if they were interesting and talented, artistic, creative,
high maintenance some of them. But tell me about your the way that you deal with pressure and expectations and all the you know, the behind the scenes drama that can be in a very high profile, very successful because when people are coming to Attaka, they expect awesome, and so you've got to do Yeah.
No, there's a great question.
There is a lot of pressure, and the way that I've dealt with that pressure myself, this is probably not quite the same as the way that the staff have to deal with it. The way that I've dealt with it is to and without wanting to say on egotist school or arrogant is to sort of understand that I'm the expert.
In this and that I've dedicated my life to this craft completely since the time that I was a small child, that I've worked the seventy five eighty l weeks, that I've struggled and built this thing through determination and through my hands and through my mind.
Therefore, I set higher standard for myself than anybody else could for me. Does that make sense to you.
Yes, So that's sort of just like that's not something I've really shared with anybody before, but that's kind of my mentality. And that's not to say that I always get it right or that I'm always perfect, but genuinely I said my standard.
For the team.
You're completely correct how our customers come with really really high expectations. You know, some people come expecting, you know, a near religious experience, and that's actually not something to believe it or.
Not that we can offer.
But but it doesn't mean that we that we won't die trying. You know, we are completely committed to two excellence for our guests, but for our staff, we want that that excellence to be manageable. And traditionally, as I mentioned, kitchens are ruled through fear, you know, and and sort of they've been very misogynistic, male dominated places.
You know, that's a fact.
And they still are largely the you know, women still don't have the same opportunities as men in hospitality in regards to running kitchens.
So that I think we just have to say that and and understand it.
But they've been ruled with an iron First, there is a system of hierarchy that comes out.
Of France and kitchens, and and you dare not.
Make a mistakeless or put a foot wrong, or the fist will come down upon you, sometimes actually physically, but often mentally.
So there've been places of abuse and fear.
And to me, you know, the idea that a kitchen can't be kind and high performance is kind of counterintuitive to performance.
To me, I just I.
Could that never sat with me. I came from the back country in New Zealand. I did endure and experience kitchens of this kind. But to me, they were never great, They were never doing meaningful work. And and so for me, how we deal with that that pressure and is that we try to eliminate that kind of fear. You know, that's we don't have people running the kitchen who are ranting, yelling or abusing our teams. They are calm during service,
and there's always catastrophes in kitchens. A chef's life is in a state of fluid failure.
You know.
It's not if things will go wrong, it's when and how often and will anybody fucking notice?
That's literally how it is, right.
And so we're trying to fix everything as we fuck everything up, and we're trying to hide it.
Right, I've been truthful here, you know. You know it's percentages.
Maybe our idea of a fuck up is not the same as a normal person's, but yet there it is. And I think if you don't count those little percentages, then then there is a tangible effects. You've got to be really disciplined. But so we're hustling and trying to just working so hard to just hold it all together kind of every night. But if we if and this is the same in any kind of high performing kitchen in the world, now, if that same kitchen is run by fear, then what those cooks will do is they
will hide those mistakes. And we implore our people to bring the mistakes to us immediately and then calmly as a team, we can figure out how to fix that quickly, because whatever catastrophe there is in life, it requires calm and persistent attention to fix. If you're losing your shit, if you're losing control of yourself, you're just making things worse.
And you just got to think straight and think about this.
Problem about how you're going to overcome it.
Now.
If it's a really big one and it requires some level of this this one, then that can be done post the mistake in a calm manner, not in the moment, but typically in kitchens it's.
Been you've bucked up.
Now I'm screaming and spinning in your face, and you feel terrified and ashamed, and you've lost your dignity. So I think it's really important for our people not to lose their dignity within the mistakes that they will absolutely make as I make them.
That's such a such a high level understanding from a sociological I don't mean sound like a bloody scientist, but psychological, emotional cultural like that awareness of it, apart from all the food stuff and the cooking and the business stuff and the keeping the you know, the customers or your guests satisfied on top of that understanding how to optimize or try to optimize the dynamics and the energy in that cauldron. That's some high level shit that you just articulated.
Most people don't even think like that.
Well, thank you. That means a lot.
I would just say as simply as this, though it comes from an understanding that humans don't want to do a bad job.
You have to have that kind of understanding as the leader.
Nobody's coming to the kitchen today to fuck up? No, why would they do that? Like, I really don't think I've ever met somebody even like the employees that haven't worked out that truly in their heart came to do a bad job today.
Yes, yes, yeah, So outside of outside of business for a minute, how do you manage you? How do you stay focused mentally, emotionally healthy, excited, curious? Like what it tell us a little bit about you? How you kind of optimize yourself or you don't think of it like that?
No, I do think of it.
I sort of have a philosophy that and this is just you know, some people will walk.
At this and go that's ridiculous, But this is just for me, you know.
And I'm not saying as I detail this, that, this, this is what I think other people should do, But this just works for me. I just I just try to apply one really high standard to everything that I do. And I don't differ that standard whether I'm working or whether I'm at home. So if I'm parenting, I'm sort of trying to do it at the same level that
I would run Attica. If I'm skateboarding, you know, I'm not a very good skateboarder, but like, I'm trying to do it to the best of my ability, you know, if I'm I love, you know, making things, I'm making stuff up, you know, crafting stuff for I just try to.
Do it at a high level. I just find it easier to do it this way.
Then I don't have to sort of lower or raise my standard for things. Am I always meeting it? Of course? Not like am I beating myself up when I don't like no, no, I'm not, no, But but I'm trying. And you know, I'm not a good example of somebody that kind of makes time for themselves. I will pack everything and that I can, and sometimes too much, and then, you know, like anybody'll occasionally complain to myself about it.
But but realistically, like it's on me. You know, I have wonderful friends.
I think that that's so crucial to surround yourself with with people who really genuinely care about you for you, and like back to this earlier conversation around not for what you do or or how famous you are, but for you and.
People that see that see that value in you. I think it's so crucial.
And those friends you know, have helped me through the best at times and the worst times.
You know, yeah, yeah, you need that. You need that sounding board sometimes and I call it, I use this term called an unreasonable friend, and it's someone that loves you, cares about you, but will tell you sometimes what you need to here, not necessarily what you want to hear. Best guy a friend, right, you know where it's likely I'd sell people. I don't need a fan club. I don't need you to tell me I'm amazing when I'm being a dickhead. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help me,
and it's not true, you know. And I think that ability to be able to be okay with getting things right and not right and not beating yourself up. And I think also because thinking when you're talking about how much you work, Like I work a lot, TIF works
a lot. You know, I'm full time work, full time study, seven podcasts a week, one hundred and twenty speaking gigs a year, consulting, lots of shit, right, But all the stuff that I do is somewhere between I enjoy it and I fucking love it, Like I don't do anything I hate. Right.
So, in.
The corporate speaking, coaching, mentoring workshop space, you know, they're for one hundred years, not really, probably fifty years, they've been talking about work life balance, And for me, it's a redundant concept because it kind of suggests that there's a like almost a number, like a balance that we get this much work, Ben and this much not work, and then when we get the scales right, and it's like it's a numerical thing, and I'm like no, because
you might do twenty hours a week, which is not many hours, but you fucking hate every hour and that is really bad for you mentally, emotionally, physically, versus you do eighty hours, which again I'm not suggesting neither's Ben, but you might do eighty hours a week periodically of shit that just fucking excites you, stimulates you, grows you, gives you joy, pleasure, Like right now, I'm you're I'm not pissing in your pocket. I love you, You're awesome.
I could hang out with you. This is my job, Like I'm talking to you. This is ridiculous. This is fun for me. This is for me. But this is one of the components of my work. And you know, when you do shit that I know, people go when you do what you love, you never work a day in your life, and that's kind of cliche and not
always possible all the time. But yeah, like for me, the stuff that I do, and I think probably the stuff that you do, despite the periodic stress and anxiety, for the most part, it's a positive like it's it's a net result, you know.
Yeah, And sometimes even when it's negative, it's kind of positive, you know, Like, and I couldn't agree more with what you're saying.
And I'm not a matter.
I hope nobody listening thinks for him, he has to work so much. No, I'm choosing that, you know, just like you know, I chose to turn up for this interview on time.
You know, But but I really think, like.
You know, for me, it's kind of trying to I don't differentiate really between I don't really do work and I don't really do home.
I just kind of do life.
And maybe that sounds a little cliche, but I really don't like the strong demarcation between work and the rest of life. Certainly don't like the idea of having to work for the rest of life. Like I just think that the work part is just too big a part of life for it not to be enjoyable, at least
on some level. You know, maybe it's not possible for every person in the world to find as much joy in their work as you clearly do, and I clearly do it, even though I would really hope that for people, you know, But I would say that trying to find fun and stuff and joy in it is just central to happiness. And I'll give you a Philly example from yesterday.
We found this enormous cactus on Facebook marketplace.
It's like three point eight meters tall, it's got multiple heads, it's hundred kilos.
I spent six.
Hours dragging it from this guy's backyard to get it on as Bunning's higher.
You right, it's absolutely insane.
Like I am prepared to do things that are ridiculous if that's not clear yet.
You know, you know there's people who can do shit like that, right, you know you don't want to personally do that yourself, you dickhead.
I'm actually going to say, I don't know if there is in this case, because nobody would be stupid enough to move this flip and plant, and they couldn't sell it.
It was quite cheap. It's beautiful cactus. Anyway. The story is a battle, in a battle, in a battle to get it to our house.
I get it off the you our fantastic chefs, and they have to you know, they come up to help me, which thank god, we thought we were going to die as we stood it up. I get it in the ground, I stake it. It looks amazing. All the neighbors are very happy. And then the wind come on Monday, and I didn't know how long it would take the route, and I had a state for a month old that's probably going to be okay.
I removed the state. The wind blows the thing over.
Now, that same day, i'd been to the doctor who told me that I tore a tendon in my knee moving that fucking cactus. So you can imagine how that made me feel right like, kind of very depressed, and I've been told I can't bend over and lift stuff at the moment for a bit. The knee's going to be fine anyway. In a fantastic name this long story, but I'm going to quickly wind it up. Fantastic neighbor rang me and said, I've got six builders renovating in the front of our house. I'd like to send them
over to help you pick up your cactus. And so the builders came over. And I've been around. I grew up on building sites. My father and my uncle builders, and there were such nice people and we had such a good time, and we were just making jokes about eating cactus and it was such.
A joyful thing.
The six of us working out how to pick up flip and cactus and put it back in the ground. Took us about thirty minutes. We all shook hands, they all joked about how now I owed them a meal at Attica.
And it was the highlight of my day picking up a silly cactus. You know, joyful, trying to find that. I just try to find the joy and everything.
You know, one hundred mate, I could talk to you for a long time I haven't even spoke to you about art or bikes or music or all the other things that you're good at and into. But maybe we can, Maybe we can reconvene it a later date. Do you want to point do you want to point anyone towards anything? Oh? Did I forget that you're writing a book? Have you just written a book?
I have written a book. Yes, tell me about the book. Tell us about the Book's called Uses for Obsession.
And it's out on the first of October in Australia and the UK. It's a book about the search for the meaning and everything. It's kind of a memoir meets manifesto. It's searing, hopefully, it's hilarious. It tells a bunch of brutally honest stories. And you know, I'm really excu it. I've spent the last two years writing it. Writing is one of my greatest pleasures. Yeah, it's it's out soon. It's got three recipes for bolonnes in it, and I invite the reader to join my bolonnaise cult and to
progress through the cult. They've got to make these three recipes, starting with really basic, kind of beginner bolonnaise, then kind of a mid range one then like expert level.
So that's my sales. That's my sales, pitch.
I love a good cult. Just tell me the name of the book again, uses for obsession. I love it, such a clever name and two uses for obsession? Is it so it's out on October one in all good and shit bookstores. Is it going to be on audio as well?
Yeah?
And I rated the audiobook myself about six weeks ago. Was a hell of an experience.
How many days did that take you?
Six six hour days and about six hours of prep on either side?
And so what is the end product? How many hours is the audio book?
I think it's about eight and a half. I haven't actually heard the whole thing yet. It is a fascinating, fascinating experience. Yeah, I don't believe how many how many? How I mispronounced so many words you would never imagine, like you've been called out by the producer every thirty seconds.
Say that again, that's hilarious. The book's called uses for obsession. Mate. It's been really nice to chat to you and get to know you a little bit, and I would love it if you would come back. We'll say goodbye fair But for the moment, Ben, thanks for being on the show. I really appreciate you.
Thanks so much, Greg, and to really appreciate you guys.