Get them. It's Harps, it's Stiff, it's Lily, and it's Tiffany and cook it to Craig Anthony Harper, it's Lily and Madiam been featured, well, now it has. But before we get to you, we'll start with the Bogan. The Bogan dog owner and cat owner who was just showing off her her dog, which a noodle. She's a little bit aloof your dog, Like she's a little bit like she loves you, but she's a little bit like hug me, but no, don't and then like look away, Yeah, a bit hard to get.
She's yeah, like she wants your attention all the time, and then the moment you give it to her and you want hers, she's.
Like, maybe I've got stuff to do. Yeah, maybe, like I've had. My last dog was a Golden Retriever. Well, they just want your attention all the time. They want kisses, they want cuddles, they want food, and then if you're not giving them kisses, cuddles or food, they're asleep. But if they're not doing that, then it's it's one of the other three. So are you a dog person.
Lilyan, Yeah, we have a koboodle as well, and he is gorgeous. He's a beautiful dog with lots of personality. He likes cuddles. So if I'm sitting on the couch, she wants to be on my lap. And if I don't feel like him being on my lap, he'll go and try to find some other lab or he'll sleep like he's very sleepy, very chill dog.
The very diffinite definition of a lap dogs. It's funny how many versions of spoodles slash noodles, kavoodles, goodles, noodles. I can se many doodles, doodles, labradoodles.
There's noodles of doodles, noodles of doodles.
My mom said, My mum calls them. Well, in the old days, like dogs that were kind of interbreed dogs, they were called pavement specials or bitss right because it would just be. But now they called designer dogs. And then the old days that were free and now they eight grand.
Oh. Yeah, they they're pricey, pricey little gems.
Not giving those noodles away, are they?
No?
Tell us about your middle name, maddi Ama, tell us about that.
Yeah, my middle name is well, my heritage is Iranian. Both my parents were born there and my mother's aunt was named Matty Am and she had a very significant caretaking role for my mother. So she loved her, and so she wanted to honor her by making my middle name her name.
I love that. I love that, all right, So are you ready to put on your clinical psychologist hat?
I mean, if I must, I will bang some questions out young and a bang to feel free, also to bang a question.
I know you to go together recently behind my back. I'm not upset at all you. That's fine, that's fine.
I talked about you the whole time.
Craig, I saw it online. I was only a little bit hurt. Really.
I met Tiff through you, obviously, but I met her in person when we were at the gym together.
And did you trying together to tip punch you in the face? What was the no?
She was she was working out at the same time, and I don't think we've had the pleasure of training together yet. Maybe that's something for the future.
I'm working towards it.
Yeah, let's do that. I just had to get to the gym in order to do that, so that helps. That helps. It does actually be there.
I'm on the dog front. Can I just say mind, client has an assistant dog that I that was in today for the second time, and you know how much self control it takes. It's like the dogs looking at me and I'm looking at the dog and we're both going neither of us allowed to because you got your jacket on.
It's hard. So you meant did you say I thought you said an assistant You meant was an assistant dog? Right right, right right? I thought assistant like the dog was. I thought the dog was taking notes while you two were training and just sending emails. Wow. Can I ask so just to kind of is it without giving away anything you can't So for that particular client, is it like one of like a companion help me stay calm dog?
Yes, so it's so they it's a PTSD, so for anxiety and mental health. They're incredible animals. But yeah, it's like they're still animals that you think they're like this or they are highly trained, but they're there with their jacket on, looking at you so that you'll invite them and they know they're not allowed, and I on loud and we're most just like this. It would have been like the jacket comes off and it's like Craig Harper rolling around on the floor.
That's the best. Just rub my tummy, it would have been. Yeah, that will be difficult for you. I did a gig a few years ago, quite a few years, maybe five, And this is how long it was ago. I can't remember. Maybe I'm not meant to say, but it was. It was a group of police officers dealing with PTSD. You might know about this. Maybe you were the segue to this. I'm not sure, because I know you've done stuff with the cops as well as I have. But so it was a bunch of past and current police officers who
have experienced PTSD, and so they have this group. But there was twenty of them, give or take, and about a dozen of them had their dogs. They have therapy dogs or comfort dogs or companion whatever with them. Do you think I could fucking concentrate right? I'm like, this is this is like, you know, you can't you can't ask me to just stand up here and be focused. I can't do my job. But also the same thing,
but I spoke to I spoke to you know. Obviously, I did my presentation and we did an interaction and group Q and A. But then we kind of let our metaphoric hair down and fucked around a little bit. But those dogs are incredible, and is there is there? I mean off the question without notice, doc like obviously for some people, depending on I mean, if you hate dogs, then dogs are not therapeutic. But who hates dogs? But animals can be like a therapy all by themselves.
Right, Absolutely, I do therapeutic tool absolutely for sure, and they help with a whole range of things, like even just the basic just having a companion, just like with loneliness. Yeah, but I think that they do have this kind of calming effect on people as well, So it doesn't have to be a therapy dog to be therapeutic.
I was asked, I was talking yesterday or the day before toe if I don't know, I do too many podcasts, but we were talking about the pros and cons of AI becoming And I use this word in inverted commas a friend or a companion something because it's evolving so quickly and its linguistic capabilities or language capabilities, and we know it's not a human to human conversation, but it is a version of a conversation because you can ask it questions and ants. It'll ask you how you're feeling,
it'll compliment you. Even with chat GPT, I'll ask a question, it'll go great question, Craig, it uses my name and
it compliments me. Which is why now in my top five friends, which I've mentioned a few times on the show, your thoughts from a psychological and emotional health point of view people building this kind of relationship, Like, clearly it's not a human to human relationship, but if people feel less stressed and anxious because they can interact with this whatever it is, with this kind of intelligence, what are
the pros and cons? And I mean, I know you haven't done research on this, but just as a psychologist.
This is actually a really timely topic. Because I went to a talk today about emerging technology just out of interest. It wasn't necessarily related to my worker healthcare, although it
obviously has healthcare implications. But like you said, technology is, you know, being developed at a rapid way, and right now it's AI and generative AI that are what's exciting people now, what people are starting to use, and the questions you're asking are really important because I think that you know, with with every benefit, there's also a limitation
and a potential problem. So, like in terms of what you were saying for like, if you know, thinking about just having access, So accessibility is probably the main benefit. Like everybody can have access to something like chat GBT. Everybody can ask, you know, these open AI sources questions about a range of topics, whether it's health or mental health or flights or you know, like the best where program to use whatever. And so that's I think a
really helpful thing. However, I suppose in terms of some of the limitations or issues to be aware of is knowing like what what data is being put in to that open source, because what's put in is what's coming out, So do we know that it's good data. I'm the woman that was talking today for instance, she said, I guess it's a phrase like crap in crap out. You know what data is being put in? What are the biases of that data? Who's in control of the company
that put for instance chat ept out? Do they have biases? Do they where are they get their stuff from? And really being aware of that, and sometimes you you would only know if the data is good if you're a subject matter expert in that area, Like for instance, if I go in and I want to ask it a research or a psych psych question, and not just to
make my life easier and more efficient. I'll just I'll stick something in there and I'll give me something back, and I'll be able to look at that information and I'll be able to say, oh, that part is good data, like yes, yes, it's saying it in the way that
I want to say, which is the helpful part. Right, So I don't have to think through and like spend an hour like trying to write something for instance, but I can tell when it's giving me good information and not good information because I'm a subject matter expert in psychology, so I can have that critical eye, whereas somebody who doesn't have that background might not. No, and I've definitely had that experience with chat EBT where it's lied to me.
I don't know if you've had that experience or not.
Yeah. Well, even sometimes i'll simon as you, I'll I'll tak something in that I know the answer to, because I just want to see what it says, you know, And it's especially especially in relation to my PhD, because I've spent five years researching you know, a drop of water in an ocean of kind of science you know, and so there's probably not a heap of people in the world who know more than I do at this
point in time about what I'm researching. And then and it's taking from a very generic, broad not necessarily accurate pool of information, and some of the answers that come back, not only are they incorrect, they're wildly incorrect, like it's actually talking about something else, it's defining a different term or something like that. But Yeah, I think, and you know, it's not going away. I mean that, and neither, I
guess does it need to? I think we need to figure out how we're going to coexist with with actual knowledge and data and biological kind of ye, an artificial and technological reality side by side, because it doesn't matter how much we jump up and down about the perils of technology and AI and social media. None of it's going away even if we want it to. So I guess we need to figure out how is the best
way that we interface with it, if at all. Yeah, and self manage, like how do I manage me my mind, my body, my emotions, myself with a capital S in the middle of all of this shit that you know may or may not be helpful to me.
That's right, and I think that's probably why if we're thinking about what the education system should start developing more, it's things like critical analysis skills. Yeah, it's things like ethical uses of technology, even things like if you just think about people going into university now and the types of jobs that are going to be sought after in the future. It's not just there's so much happening, Like the talk that I went today just blew my mind,
Like it's not just AI's just like today's technology. Of course, that to develop further over time, but there's and there's also what's called spatial computing, which is things like virtual reality, augmented reality, metaverse stuff that's also has already emerged and is being developed. But the thing that's coming, I don't know if you've heard of this. You probably have because you've talked to talk to everybody and people who know much more about this than I do, because I literally
just listen to a talk today. But it's called quantum computing. Have you talked to someone about that.
Yeah, we've done a couple of episodes on it.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy, like what these computers are going to be able to do in the next potentially ten years, maybe even less than that. There's a lot of implications for that in the future and what we need our current I guess eighteen year olds studying is not just computer science, but like all of the other like having
this type of lens on whatever they're doing. So if it's psychology, if it's law, if it's politics, if it's you know, marketing, like everything, you kind of need to know like what you're going to be facing in regard to these kinds of emerging technologies over the next ten years.
And also just trying to differentiate between doc between what is real and what is what is something that's been produced, because you know, the videos, the video and the audio and the pictures that are being artificially created now are so good that's I mean, they're so good that you can't tell. And so my training partner, the Crab, who's also old as fuck like me, but probably not quite. I'm no tech guru, but I'm light years I'm fucking
Steve Jobs compared to him. Well that's not true, Steve Jobs. Instead, you know, like I'm somewhat ahead of him just because of my work, right, And he'll often send me a video and it's not real. And I can see in like ten or twenty seconds that I'll know somebody created this. This is not real but for somebody, and you know, and I'm behind Tiff and TIFFs, behind the sixteen year old, right or whatever. But we're all down the line. But it's becoming harder and harder to figure out what is,
what is real, and what is not real. And I think that's going to be you know where, Like even probably two months ago, Patrick who's our tech guy we do every fortnight, we do a tech show with him, and one episode he said to me, as we started the show, just like we have now, he said something like, it's not fair that you always get to introduce the show, and I said, well, this is on air, right, I said, well, you introduced the show, and then he proceeded to play
this thing that he'd created, which was my voice and his words wow, right, And I mean I could discern obviously I knew it wasn't me, yeah, but the way that it was put together, and he put it together very quickly, it was just my voice that he'd scripted some sentences for. Yeah, And like if my mum heard that, there's no way that she wouldn't think that that was me talking.
Yeah, that's yeah exactly, and that's I mean, there are already scams about that now orl yeah, and yeah, the future of identity is like a big thing.
Well that's why they say. Now you need to have a key question or you know, so if your kids ring and go Mom, I'm stuck somewhere, I need you to wire me a thousand bucks, or you need to have a pre arranged question or kind of work right, something safe word or yeah, all right, I want to jump off AI because we probably flogged a bit too much on this show. So question one for you in the realm of your area of expertises. And I know there's not a categoric question to this, but I just
want your thoughts around this. Is happiness a good goal? Is happiness? Is that a smart goal? Or is there a better state that we should own for.
I actually wrote an article several years several years ago called the pursuit of happiness is ruining our lives?
Wow, I like it.
Good question then, OK, yeah, I guess of course the state of happiness is pleasant and we all, you know, like we all want that and want that as much as possible. But to have it as a goal, it kind of implies that it's a destination that you can reach and stay at, which so it's that's problematic because we know that happiness is one of many of the emotions that humans experience, and we know that emotions are fleeting,
they're not static. Yeah, And so if you think that happiness is something that you can achieve, then you're probably going to be unhappy most of the time.
And do you think that if, like without being sad or without being stressed or anxious, or without having bad days or bad moments or bad hours, that like, if there was a way to hit that emotional and psychological peak of happiness and we stayed there eventually, it's not a peak, it's just a flat line. And if you're
flat lining, you did right. It's because there's no like, do we need that contrast of sadness and pain and anxiety and to be able to experience happiness like or is it kind of like you know with the dopamine thing where you eat some chocolate and give you a certain response or cocaine or whatever it is, and then over time you need more and more to get the same response.
That's interesting. I guess we're never going to know the answer to that question because it's not possible to achieve that state. But I think the way that I look at it is anything that we do that is meaningful, any pursuit that we have that gives meaning to our lives comes with the full range of emotions. So even like the things that we want really bad, I'll use like an example that a lot of people can relate to, Like we might want to have children, Right, that's a
fairly common desire for a lot of people. So we want it really bad, But are we actually expecting that that's going to give us happiness and joy all the time? It isn't, and we actually know that, right, So when you if you do have kids, I have a couple, the first thing you notice is that you've got a wave of anxiety that's washed over you. That's probably not ever going to leave, right, Like, it's just part of being a parent. So and it's just it's the same
for like being in a relationship. Do you think that being in a relationship is going to make you happy all the time, Because if you do, you're not going to be very satisfied, Like you're going to be you know, very dissatisfied and disillusioned. And you know your job, like pursuing the work that you do, is that going to make you happy all the time? No, Like, sometimes you're going to be stressed, sometimes you're going to be anxious,
sometimes you're going to be disappointed. And so we kind of need to understand like what the human experience is and accept and expect the full range of that rather than kind of idea of we have to have positive self talk every second of the day, or something's wrong with us, or we have to feel only the pleasant emotions or something's wrong with us. All of our emotions, whether they're pleasant or unpleasant, are functional and they serve a function. And yes they can be dysfunctional as well.
But it's really helpful, even just as a lens or a mindset to kind of just know all of your emotions are valid and okay, you can accept them like that instead of judging yourself for having them. Then you're going to you are going to be much happier and more content overall.
Relationships are interesting because I think some people think that being in a relationship is a solution to a problem, and it's I think sometimes people are more enough some people. There's my disclaim. I'm more in love with the idea of being in a relationship than the actual person they're in the relationship with, you know, because and they want to be in And obviously I'm not against relationships, of course,
I'm not against marriage, you know. But it's like, I don't know that being in a relationship at all costs is well, I don't think it's a great idea. It's a great idea for some And it's also like I think it's you might be with a person and it's nirvana. You be with another person, it's a fucking toxic nightmare. Like, so it's it ain't just about in or out of a relationship, Like there are a lot of variables around that.
But I see back to your kind of you know, it's what people think they will like, there's the thing that people want, the what and what they think it will bring them, you know. So it's like people want to be in a relationship because clearly no one wants that because they think they're going to be more miserable, So they think that will bring them happiness, joy fulfillment, security, whatever.
Or people want to be leaner because they think that'll bring them X, Y Z or they want a bigger income, right, And there's nothing wrong with that. We all do that. We have this expectation and this correlation in our mind of if I get X, then why will be the product? I mean, for years, all I wanted to do is look amazing because I was this wildly insecure, ex fat kid, and I thought if I had an awesome body, then
I'd be awesome. You know, I thought if I had a great body, I'd be I didn't articulate it this way, but I know looking back how I thought, Well, I'd be more emotionally and psychologically I'd be fine. I'd be more attractive to someone. I wouldn't have all the bullshit issues that I had because I'd now be walking around in a great body. And then I got to the point where for me, I had a relatively good body and all my bullshit was still there because I was
trying to resolve emotional and psychological issues with bigger shoulders. Yeah.
I mean, it's a hard life and to learn, isn't it. I was having a conversation with one of my clients recently about this, and she has, you know, and a lot of my clients in the past have had similar issues with body image and this kind of focus on weight and that being a sign of their worth. And even though intellectually they know that your weight doesn't equal your worth, emotionally it.
Does, yes.
And what I've gotten clients to do over the years is write down what they think the characteristics of someone
with high self esteem is right, and what's happened. And you know, you never know what's going to happen when you ask somebody to do something like that, But what's actually happened every time I have is they'll come up with a list and it'll be things like, can assert their feelings confidently, well, don't care what other people think, accepts their flaws, like all sorts of things like that. Not one of the things is how the person looks.
Not one of the things is must have blonde hair, blue eyes, be skinny, like, it's not ever one of those things. So it's like it's almost like they don't realize that they're actually wanting self worth and self esteem and to accept themselves, and they think that achieving a certain weight is going to give them that. Like you said, it doesn't give you that because that's not one of the characteristics of someone with high self esteem.
And I think that's when we set a goal. You know, we talk about the thing that we want, and we I think we subconsciously think that that will be the conduit or the pathway to the thing we really want. You know, nobody goes what you go, Oh, my goal is better self esteem and more confidence, right, you know, But their goal is to earn this orund or look like that because they think that emotional change or that psychological that internal shift will be the byproduct of that
external thing, you know. And like with me, I got to the point where I had you know, like successful businesses and stuff, and I won't go through this again. But you get to the point and you go, oh, and now what, like I'm still a dickhead, or I'm still insecure, I'm still not whatever. But I think, I don't know if that's just something that happens over time where you have to fall down and get up, or you need to get to the top of the mountain and go, oh, fuck this, I climbed the wrong mountain.
But that mountain over there, or maybe it's that mountain, you know.
But I also think, like, you're not like this is a conversation I had as well with the person I'm thinking of and people in the past. It's not even like the list of things that are characteristics of someone with self esteem, they're not static things, right, Like, a person with high self esteem is still going to feel insecure sometimes, is still going to make mistakes, it's still going to take things personally, it's still going to care
about what other people think sometimes. Like, it's not absolute, and so I think, again, we don't want to set people up to achieve this kind of this idea of self esteem or self worth being being like you are one hundred percent confident all the time and you never experience any insecurities and you're never anxious about anything. It's like, that's not real, that's not reality.
That's a great point. That's a great point because I know that I can simultaneously feel not good enough but know that I am.
Yes, that is the trick. That is literally, I think the trick for like, if you want people to feel psychologically healthy, to be able to hold both of those ideas as true, I think is really helpful. There's this therapy called dialectical behavior therapy. It was developed by Marshall Lenehan in the early nineties, maybe late eighties, early nineties, particularly for people with severe emotion dysregulation and who tended
who were often chronically suicidal. So people who were potentially self harming a lot, just like very out of control and disregulated in lots of areas of their life. But one of the things, in terms of I'm sorry, just to give you some background, like this is a therapy that I've studied and I've helped people with those sorts of issues as part of my practice as a psychologist over the years. But what I found was that there's
kind of a couple parts of the therapy. One is the individual therapy where you help motivate person to keep going, and then there's the skills training part of the therapy, which is about teaching core skills. But one of the core skills is really this kind of that mindset piece of life, like understanding what dialectics are. And so it's
exactly what you were saying before. It's like this idea of there can be two opposites that are true at the same time, and the reality of the world we live in is that that is what that's what is true. So if you can hold this idea and the kind of the main dialectic of the therapy is acceptance and change, so you can accept yourself fully the way you are and you can know that you can do better at the same time, so you're helping people. And you know, initially it was just for people at kind of the
severe end of the spectrum. But what's been discovered over time and certainly and when I've delivered treatment and therapy to people, is these ideas are great for everybody across the board, even people who don't have clinical problems. I just think these types of skills in this type of mindset. It took even a while for me, even though I was teaching it to my clients, it took a while for it to click in for me. How true that is? And I guess I had this experience once on a
I was on a cruise. I was actually hired to do this workshop for staff on a crew on a cruise and I got so I got to go on a cruise for free, which is great with my family. But there was one morning where it was before I was running a workshop, and I was like by myself on the deck and it was this beautiful, like very calm, serene morning, and I was just looking over the water and I was thinking, Wow, this is like so beautiful
and peaceful and amazing. And at the same time, I was realizing we were like in the middle of the South Pacific and there was water in every direction and nothing else, like there was no land anywhere, And so at the moment, at the same moment, I was feeling peace and serenity, as I's also like a little unsettled.
Hm.
You're like, we're in the.
Middle of nowhere.
Something happens right now, there's nobody like that's going to be able to help us, because we're like literally in the middle of South Pacific. So it was like, even in that moment, it's like, but I can hold both of those things at the same time. I can still feel that piece in serenity, and I can also feel that sense of like a little bit of anxiety sitting there. And if you can hold both and tolerate that, I think you'll feel more content and more stable overall.
Yeah, I think that's an that's an ever present reality, or you know, a frequent reality for people, like the juxtaposition or the seemingly opposing constructs that I talk about is being simultaneously content and ambitious because they seem like opposites. Whereas in the moment when I think about my life, my mum and dad, my friends, my work, I'm very grateful and content. Yeah, at the same time I'm ambitious,
but there's no anxiety wrapped around it. It's like, and there're things that I want to do and learn and do. I want to grow and evolve and do more stuff I do. But in the moment, day to day, do I have a sense of gratitude and awareness that I'm pretty fucking blessed in my life? Is amazing? I do. So I don't, like you said, I don't think it needs to be one or the other. You know that that kind of even with me, I think I'm I'm for the most part content, But is there ever low level anxiety?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's very analogous to that concept of acceptance and change. And sometimes you know, like for people who have very low self worth and so like the underlying belief is like I'm a failure or I'm worthless, and like the kind of there's a few different ways that you can, you know, guide people through that, and one of the ways is like kind of the cognitive behavioral way, which is, you know, look at the thought, where is the evidence for the thought? Challenge the thought,
modify the thought, practice the new thought. That's kind of like the abolition of that, And that can work for a lot of people. But sometimes I say, you know what, what if you were a failure and a success, like can't you just can you be both? Because I think that that actually represents the reality for everybody, Like we all are failures and we all are a success all at the same time.
I think one of the things that I often do wrong and people like me often do wrong. And I'm speaking in huge general lifezations here everyone, So if it's not you ignore this. But I think in the self help slash personal development slash think better, do better, be better space, right that you know, there's this mindset of constant and never ending improvement, of perpetual growth and learning and evolution and development. And one that's not realistic, and
two it's also fucking exhausting. It's okay to have a day where you just goof off and produce fucking nothing. Yes, you know, And it's like when people go to me, what are you up to today? Even I still feel compelled to give them a bit of a shopping list of all the amazing shit I've got on And it's just sometimes it's not true. I go, I've got fucking I'm gonna I might wash some clothes. Then I'll see where I go from there. You know, so big day.
And I say that sometimes I don't know why people are surprised I wash my own clothes, like I'm some fucking movie star that can't use a washing mission. But I think giving ourselves permission to have, you know, as long as it's not a thousand days in a row, but days where we're not productive, we're not absolute right, we're not producing great outcomes. We maybe made a few fucking dumb decisions. We may be said on the couch with a box of pizza. It's like, it's not the end of the world.
You know, I totally agree with you. I have so many clients that are like really driven people, and that's great, right, achieving things, growing, accomplishing, But it's not great necessarily if your belief is you must be productive or you are worthless yes, or you are doing the wrong thing yes, And so part of what I help them understand and realize if they want to. Is that exactly what you just said, you know, challenge that belief. Where are you
getting that from? A lot of people are getting that from how they grew up, right, the messages from their families of origin, the people who are taking care of them. There are maybe in generations before maybe that was a more pervasive belief and it still is obviously, but that if you you must be productive, you must be doing
something productive all the time. Yeah, And we internalize those beliefs and then we live those beliefs, even if it's not serving us, and it's like, well, maybe have a look at your beliefs and see if that's how you want to live your life and if it's healthy for you, and if it's taking you down you know, the roads, the paths that you want to actually go down. And I feel like I'm really good at doing nothing. I have no problem doing nothing, and I have no problem
telling people I'm doing nothing. And you know, the more, there's a lot of days where I come home, if I'm working outside the home, I'll come home and I'll as soon as I get home, I put my pajamas. I don't want to go anywhere and do anything. If I want to sit down on the couch for two hours, I have like zero guilt about that. But that's not
the case for most people, I don't think. I think a lot of people struggle with just even sitting and doing nothing for ten minutes or like thirty and it's just like, yeah, it's like even just that's a practice that people can experiment with a little bit more and see if they can tolerate being uncomfortable with not being productive, even if it's just for a few minutes.
I feel like when I talk to a lot of people about their goals in the next one two five years of their life and what they want to change in the short, medium, long term, when you get through the kind of the the obvious stuff, I want more of this and less less of that, or I'd like to achieve this or tick that box, or i want to undo this healthy habit, or like a lot of what people want when for me, anyway, when we get down to it, is they just want to be less anxious.
It seems like everyone is anxious and they want of course, they want to make dough and you know, be physically healthy and all of that. But like so many people just want calm, calm. It's like, I just want to be calm. I can't. I worry about everything. I worry about this, I worry about that. And then when there is nothing to worry about, then they create something to worry about because something might happen in the future. It's not happening now, but in case it does happen in
the future, I've got to prepare for it now. And oh my god. And it's like, really, it ain't about things. It's about it ain't about anything really external. It's a bit maybe, but it's really more about that internal state.
And I know this sounds cheesy, but you know that emotional and psychological and spiritual bank balance, you know, rather than the stuff because how many people do you know tif No, I know that from the outside looking in, you would call them by all normal conventions like successful.
You go, wow, they're successful. And what we're saying is they're making lots of money, they're successful, or they're doing great in their career, or you know, they're ticking all these boxes and that obviously that's not a bad thing. But does that equate to joy and happiness and calmness and contentment? And you know, maybe maybe not. I think for a lot of people the answer is is not.
Oh, and definitely the research is showing that it isn't. I mean, like you said, anxiety is skyrocketing, and that's across the board, like from the really young people. Youth is probably skyrocketing even more than everybody else, but more and more. Like I talk to a lot of business owners, I'm around them a lot and more and more, it's I can't sleep, I can't my mind is racing all
the time, I feel stressed. My life is out of balance. So, yes, they might be really successful and financially, but they're not feeling intent, they're not enjoying their life. And so what is the measure of success really when we think about it, is that it's having a contentment and joy and fun and good relationships. And if you are focused on kind of just one version of success, which is often that press desion, status and money aspect, you are not paying
attention to the other parts. And the other parts are the ones that actually will make you happy or help you feel content most of the time. Yeah.
Yeah, Do you think in general terms that being more resilient, whatever that means, but being more mentally and emotionally resilient, it equates too less anxiety generally.
Well, I think with resilience, from what I know about resilience, the way to have high resilience you kind of need three factors. One is like good, solid, positive, supportive relationships is number one, and then the second is like your mindset, like how much you believe in yourself and your capabilities. And then the third is like the skills that you need.
And so if you have those relationships in place, if you believe in yourself and that, and you know that you're capable of doing things that you want to do, and if you have the skills or people around you who can model those skills that you need to achieve what you want in life, then you will be less anxious. So they are. I think they're definitely related to each other.
Yeah, I feel like this is my theory. You can't really build resilience when you always choose the easy option, right like, when you always take the comfortable, the quick fix, the alleged painless, the magic pill, the reward without work option, you're not really building resilience because you're not doing anything hard. Yes, Now, I don't think life needs to be a perpetual slog or battle. But it's like saying I want to build physical strength, but I'm not going to work against resistance.
I'm not going to lift any weights, I'm not going to go to the gym, I'm not going to sweat well. How you get strong physically is literally working against resistance. And I feel like how you build mental and emotional strength or resilience or grits or you know, these are interchangeable terms to an extent as it you have to be able to in an intelligent, not reckless, but intelligent way, expose yourself to a level of stress, you know, so that you can, Like if you avoid pressure always, then
how the fuck can you perform under pressure? And life is pressure and some people are not going to like you, and some things are not going to work out, and even if you're a great person, bad things will happen to you because that's the human experience. And if we're always you know, mum or Dad's always molly coddling us, or we're always like the skills that you talk of, I agree, But where the fuck do they come from? Like they have to come Like, how do you learn
to be good at something that you never do. How do you overcome your fear of speaking in public. It's by speaking in public's right, Yeah, yeah, muscles.
Yeah, the main treatment for anxiety is it's called exposure therapy, so it literally is what you're saying. And I think that that is a really important skill to impart to young people, you know, like children from a very early age. It is like when you're scared of something, unless it's actually dangerous or unsafe, approach it. If you approach things that you're afraid of, that if it goes well, you build confidence. If it doesn't go well, you build resilience.
So it's a win win sure, and then the next time you do it it'll be even less anxiety provoking and the next time even less so. And like you said, if you can do that, you build resilience and you're less anxious over time. But at the same time, you have to expect a certain level of stress and anxiety in your life because that's just been a human Yeah.
I think just about in general with people, you know, kids, grown ups. You know the idea of like kids playing on monkey bars. Yep, someone's going to break an arm Yep, that's going to happen. So do we ban monkey bars? Do we never let children climb a tree? And I know there's an element of risk and I know, but I wonder, and I'm not stating anything, I'm wondering out loud, what is the cost of nurfing the world with kids?
Of course you want to protect them, of course to a point, But then where's the line and how much do you let them fall down and learn and make mistakes? And oh, by the way, you came last in the race, and that's okay, we love you, you're awesome, but you came last. And it's okay that you came last. We're not going to pretend that you didn't. Like It's to me that stuff where because when you leave the parental nest,
you're going to come last at something. You're going to fuck up, you're going to get embarrassed, you're going to be you're going to get rejected, you're going to like And if we're not teaching kids about this when they're kids, while still loving them and protecting them, I'm like, you know, if they come out of the nest at eight nine and twenty and then they got pushed out into a reality they're ill prepared for. Yeah, that's fucking that's dangerous too.
Yeah, it's actually really important for kids to learn how to feel their emotions, identif by their emotions, express their emotions, validate their emotions, and so we're protecting them from disappointment or embarrassment. Then they don't learn how to manage those emotions and maybe even think that they're wrong to have them in the first place. Like your example of like coming last, I think this is something like, I mean,
I'm sure I've done this too. Like you don't want to see your kids disappointed, so you might say, oh, you know, it's you know, it's fine, or you know, or this happened and that's why you came last. You make excuses for it or whatever. But the child knows they came last. So in some ways you're invalidating their experience, their experiences that they came last, and they're disappointed by that.
But then you come in and you try to, you know, like you said, make it better, and so they don't get to express how disappointed they are because the message they're getting is I shouldn't feel sad or disappointed, or there's these other reasons why this occurred, or.
It's okay though it's oh, you're disappointed.
That's okay, Yes, exactly, it is okay to be it's actually, yeah, it makes sense for you to be disappointed when you come last. Actually, it does make sense. It's a painful emotion, but it makes sense.
Well, this is coming from a kid too, an next kid that came last a lot like I came last a lot. I would have stood there fifty sixty seventy times as teams were being picked. Yeah, and being the last one picked, and that wasn't a lot of fun. But like, I know why I was the last one picked because I was the worst athlete, because I was morbidly obese. And I get it. And people go, oh my god, oh my god, But I get it. It's like I, oh, okay, Craig Will, I want good athletes.
And at this point in you know, later on, I lost some weight and I became an okay athlete and things changed a bit. But I know for me anyway, and don't I wouldn't recommend that to anyone, what I went through. And I understands it makes people cringe and all of that, but and my experience, as no one else's, I get all of that. But for me, it made
me really fucking motivated. Eventually, Eventually I got to the point I went, oh, well, I'm going to keep coming last, I'm going to keep getting embarrassed, I'm going to keep being socially invisible. I'm going to fucking hell. And I could silk and winge and complain, but at the end of the day, I was the problem because I was the one eating all the food. I was the one that you know, my mum wasn't forced feeding me, you know, and I was the one not exercising, and so you know,
it was painful, but it was also for me. It was it was also a lesson and I wouldn't want any other kids to necessarily go through that. But at the same time, I think that I don't know, like a little bit of messiness and a little bit of discomfort and you know, and by the way, it's it's never going to stop happening. So we need to teach kids and grown ups how to cope.
Yeah, we do, and in lots of different ways. Like you know, with my kids when they because they're they're teenagers now, but you know, they when they turn like thirteen, they start getting embarrassed by like everything, so like you play the music too loud in the car with the windows up, turn the music down, you know, like there's and I like, so I will purposefully embarrass them, like because I think it's good for them, And I will tell them that. I'll be like, it's good for you
to be embarrassed. You need to practice like being embarrassed. So I'll just and it's not like it's not being spirited, it's like literally so that they are resilient with that emotion because there's so much, so much time and energy wasted on feeling awkward, embarrassed, anxious. And if they don't learn how to tolerate that now, even though they get super annoyed by it, then what is it going to be like in the future. Like, I'd rather them just learn to be embarrassed now as a lesson, and so
then I get to enjoy it as well. I get to enjoy it embarrassing it from time to time.
What about the idea of parents who are like in Inverted Comma's best friends with their kids. Is that a dumb idea? I don't know that.
I feel like I don't know. It's just depends on what you mean by that.
Well, you know how I've heard it. Moms say it more than dad's. But I'll say with their you know, by my daughter and I have best friends, I'm like, Okay, I don't know. Maybe that's a good idea. I just I done well.
I mean, I think yeah, I think, gosh, I think this is like a it's fraud. I think, like I would like to think. But my daughter's seventeen. Now we have a really open communicative relationship, but also a regular mother daughter relationship where we get annoyed with each other and all that sort of stuff. When she's older, I would like her to considering me a best friend. I feel like when you're both adults and you've gone through things.
But I do say that it's not just that though you're always going to be their mother, but potentially, and I haven't gotten to this stage yet so I don't know, but potentially, when as they get older, you're doing a lot less mothering, so there's more room for the friendship side to develop. What when they're children and adolescens, your primary role is mother like guidance, boundary, lessons, and friendship is if it's there, it's secondary. It can't be the
primary Because I don't know. It depends on what kind of friends you have. Like you if your friendships are about you know, advice giving and setting boundaries and you like teaching lessons and stuff, maybe that's your version of friendship and that's what it means to you. But I guess I think that you can It's one of those things. Maybe you can be both at the same time, but at different stages of their development. One is going to come out a lot more than the other.
Do you ever talk to your patients Do you call them patients or clients? Patients call them clients. Do you ever talk to your clients about about their own thinking? You know, like metacognitive like where you just oh when you think that, do you ever hit the pause button then go wow, where did that thought come from? Or why do I think that? Or where did that belief come from? Does that serve me or sabotage me? Where?
You know, we try to understand our own mind and the processes of our own mind, just to create a bit of space between me and my mind, me and my thoughts. Do you ever talk to people about that kind of metacognitive kind of process.
Yeah, I think that's kind of the foundation of most of the therapy that I do. I would say it's the foundation of cognitive behavioral therapy to be aware of your thoughts, to challenge your thoughts potentially, to understand where
they come from, the origins of your thoughts, modify them. Also, you know, a core skill is mindfulness, not of CBT so much, but you know, the kind of third wave CBT therapies like acceptance and commitment therapy and dialectical behavior therapy include mindfulness as a core skill, and part of
that can be mindfulness of your thoughts. Like I've I recorded, I record I don't know if you know this, but I've recorded like like three albums of relaxation and mindfulness exercises over the years, and one of the ones that I recorded is called mindfulness of thoughts like clouds in the sky and what that The purpose of that is so that people can observe their thoughts non judgmentally and
so without trying to change anything. So so helping people understand, like be able to see their thoughts from a distance as an observer and not necessarily attached to them and hold on to them or even engage them in any way, not like not even challenge them or anything, just literally just watching them go by, just like you might watch the sky and see the clouds go by, or sometimes
people like to imagine like leaves on a stream. Sometimes that can be extremely helpful for anxiety and stress management, and especially the non judgmental peace of mindfulness. I think that that's people often talk about mindfulness as being in the present moment, which it is, but they're forgetting the other part of it, which is the judgmental part. It's observing things in the present moment nonjudgmentally. That makes it
a really helpful practice. And when you can do that, and that's probably one of the hardest things to do, then you can again to achieve I guess more emotional and cognitive stability.
Do you think people are aware of the space between the thing that's happening and their story about the thing that's happening, you know, like the reality, the objective reality of the event or the situation or the circumstance versus our interpretation of it. You know, it's like when someone listens to me and I say fuck, and they think
I'm offensive than their experiences, they are offended. Yes, when someone else hears the ex or is impacted by the exact same stimulus me saying fuck, and they think it's amusing their literal experiences. They're amused, right, and so whatever their story is about that, I'm just using that word because people can relate, you know, because people are going to respond one way. Oh that's offensive, that's funny, that's inappropriate,
that's appropriate. Oh that's craig, you know, Like people have a story and then they believe their story and that becomes their experience. So for them it's not like, oh, this is just my personal response. They're like, no, that is categorically offensive. No, bro, it's just offensive to you
because there's nineteen other people who are not offended. Yes, is that kind of opening the door on becoming more self aware of our own ability to create a subjective experience in the middle of the objective whatever that's going on.
Yeah, I think that your question about whether most people are aware of that maybe not. Again, that's like a foundational foundation of CBT is this idea that our thoughts are what and our interpretations and our perspectives impact how we feel and what we do. So if we understand what the difference is between the facts of the situation, yes, and our interpretation of the facts. Yes, then we can do a lot with how we not just the content
of what we think, but our patterns of thinking. Yes, it's not just like I'm like, I'm offended because you know, my beliefs or this or that, But it's also like, do I have a pattern of thinking that is full of shoulds all or nothing? Black or white? Thinking? Over generalizing all of these kinds of patterns that we all have to some extent, But for some people they have
a lot more. And because they're not aware, they don't realize how much it's impacting their life and how they interact with the world and how and how it actually impacts them internally.
I think also too, when when you think so in way about something, or you have a certain idea or ideology or philosophy or belief about a certain thing and you've believed that or you've thought that about that for a very long time and you're sure about that, that gets into woven with your identity. And so when I challenge that thought or that idea, then for you, I'm challenging your identity. Yeah, you know so. And it's like
the idea of being open minded is easy. The reality the reality is another thing.
Right, totally. I agree with that and for sure, like there have been many times where I'm like, my thought process has been more like I'm right or wrong. And that's with awareness, right, that's with knowing.
That's you being a clinical psychologist who's smart. Yeah, of course, and.
I'm being willful right in that moment, I know that I'm being wilful and stubborn and irrational at the same time as I would like to express that I am correct and you know nothing.
And as I've said many times, when you think or I think on a particular matter that I am unequivocally right, then I also believe concurrently that everyone in the world who disagrees with me is wrong.
Right.
No, that's a big stand. Hey, we've got to wind up because Tiff and I have got another show in a little while. I wish we had more time, but I love chatting with you. How can people connect with you, doctor Lillian.
Well, they can have a look at the website Doctor Liliannaja dot com and if they want to work on their worries and anxiety can go to Contain your Brain dot com.
Awesome, we appreciate you. It's always fun chatting to you.
Great type of you, guys.
You've splain over there, just man handling. Oh I nearly said something terrible, bear, and I wasn't even trying to be funny.
Craig her cat exactly well exactly yes, Thanks TIV, Thanks guys. Bye,