#1611 Performance Intelligence - Andrew May

a co share, and that happens both ways. Sometimes people are on my show, I interview them, and then they take that episode back to their show for want of a better term, and then they share that with audience. We call that a co share. So recently, with all that in mind, recently I was on Andrew May's podcast which is called Performance Intelligence, the Performance Intelligence Podcast, and here's a bloody gun. He's a slightly better version of me.

I'm being honest. Maybe I guess, I'll let you decide, But anyway, he's brilliant. Loved him him, loved our conversation. And because of that, look, there will also be if you're very familiar with me and my stuff, there'll be a fair bit of familiarity about the conversation. So feel free to have a bit of a squizze and see whether or not you want to keep going. You might not want to because there'll be some repetition, but we

do cover new ground. He's a good interviewer. He also shares his own thoughts and ideas which are really worth listening to. But before you listen to it, I want to tell you that next weekend, as I'm recording this and recording this Sunday to be up Monday, So next weekend being August the eighteenth, I'm going to be in

Bendigo doing my Understanding You workshop. Understanding You it's brand new workshop, new content, a bit of old stuff but of new stuff, bit of a synthesis of both, bit of convergence of the old and newer, bit of fun, a bit of storytelling, a bit of science, a bit of my PhD, a bit of research, a little bit of interaction. It is called Understanding You. It's three our workshop. You can book in via my site Craigharpa dot net. Also, so that's next next week Sunday the eighteenth, same workshop

happening in melbs on September eighth. September eight happening in Melbourne. Also go to my website, if you want to have a look, if you want a book, if you want to get involved. But without further ado, Andrew may me you us it ready, steady go. I say, put up your hand if you've ever heard your voice on audio recording,

and everybody goes, oh god, oh my god. Then I go all right, hands down, Now put your hand back up if you think you sound like shits, And every hand goes up, and I go, well, the bad news is that's how we hear you all the time. Yeah, exactly. And then you say, well, what's more in your life or your house? And people go, what a stupid question? Well, of course my life.

This is me, hey who and this is me? This is me just talking sharing, And I think there's always going to be a little bit of something performative because I'm a bit of a performer, like I love fucking making people laugh, I love telling stories. But then woven through that is vulnerability and a bit of pain and a bit of embarrassing stuff, and a real insight into a real human experience that isn't all shiny and beautiful.

business owner, and self proclaimed bogan. Harps his host of the wildly successful podcast The You Project, and he is a true jack of all trades speaker, author, podcast entrepreneur, scientist, and PhD candidate. His PhD is about how others experience you, diving into principles including meta cognition, theory of mind, meta perception, and meta accuracy. And today we've tracked the big man down to explore the practical applications of his research in

our everyday lives. Craig Harper, Welcome to the podcast.

I'm sixty, like you said, four decades. I've been doing a version of this for ever, learning, growing, being the student, being the teacher, being the coach, you know, fucking up, getting up, falling down, winning, losing, failing, succeeding, all that normal human stuff, and I'm just as excited as ever. Like genuinely, I love human potential. I love trying to understand who we are, how we are, and why we are the way we are.

I'm really curious why did you choose the topic of how other people experience you? I want to pull on that thread. Is there a story or stories that lead to that. I've never heard you talk about that, so full disclosure. When I started my PhD, I started looking

at motivation. So what often happens with a PhD, especially in psych, is that people will start and then a month or two or three or four in they're like, this is this is going to be a big problem, like a bigger than big problem, or there's you know, this is there's too much already done. Or you come to a realization and you take a slight left turn, or you do a one ad I did a one eighty. So I was looking at motivation, the role of motivation in creating you know, change, and you know all that

kind of general stuff. But there's just a huge amount of divergence and ambiguity around the concept of motivation in psychology, and it was probably going to be really messy and so not that long in probably three months in I changed tact And so, as you said in the intro, I'm looking at a thing called, colloquially we would call it the you experience, which is you the listener, you who are listening, your ability to understand what it is like for other people to be around you, which we

call metaperception, and then how good you are at that we call that meta accuracy. So the genesis for that was lots and lots of conversations with leaders and bosses and.

There was a lot of separation in the perspectives. And the bottom line was, you know that there were some bosses who were in some ways really good, great business skills, knowledge, you know, like high IQ, but at the same time they couldn't build rapport, connection, trust, respect because they really didn't know how the group saw them or perceived or processed them. And maybe even more importantly, they didn't seem

to care. And I was always curious about that. Where I would go into I would get called in to do some work with a company, and you know the kind of the directive wash that's you know, the culture is not great, communications not great. It's just not it's not a great energy or environment to be and could you come and kind of do your thing. So I would talk to a few people, and then I would often talk to the boss and I'm like, I found the problem that's up in this office. It's this office

up here in the corner. Here's the problem that bell end of the corner. Oh, it's you, there's the problem. Yeah, it's Brian or Sally up in the corner office, right so, and that you know, just that, and nobody's trying to be you know, difficult, that's nobody's goal. And yeah, so that just opened the.

kind of that. And I'm like, well, yes and no, but you're not employing robots. You're employing humans with emotions and feelings and you know, beliefs and values and expectations and a need to be respected and valued and all of those things. And so the responses were really varied. But these days, like we were chatting before we pressed the go button, yesda. I did two gigs with two different groups, two corporate groups, and I talk about this a bit as part of my presentations, depending on the

focus of the presentation. Of course, one of those was a one hour keynote. One was a two hour workshop. But most people are like, oh wow, that's actually that's actually really interesting. And the way that I open the door and get people to have a little bit of an insight is I say, put up your hand if you've ever heard your voice on audio recording, And everybody goes.

between your version and our version of you. Yeah. So it's just it's a tipping off point, and it's I think also point out that it's not something to be worried about, but rather curious about. Like we're not talking about, oh my god, do they like me? We're not talking about insecurity or fear or self loathing. We're talking about if I can understand their version of me, then perhaps I can build rapport on connection and we can work

better together. We can be a better team, we can resolve conflict quicker, we can create better, we can solve problems better, you know. So it's it's really about trying to create positive interpersonal and professional outcomes.

I had no idea about risk compliance, stakeholder engagement. And there's five hundred other partners that all have their hands on the ship as well. And I had an amazing coach who work with me, and she said, Andrew, you're used to being a fighter pilot and everyone is around you putting the fuel in right, go off the ship out and the sea. You told when to take off

when to land, and everyone's doing everything for you. Now, Jill said, you're flying at a three eighty and there's five hundred other people you need to share the controls with, and you come across as being too fast paced, sometimes not listening, do your own thing, and a little bit selfish. And I went fuck Jesus because I wouldn't have thought I was selfish. I wouldn't have thought that I was

too fast. But my skill set Harps had been so trained, and you've worked on running a small business and being a keynote speaker. Were you're talking at not talking too The perception I had on other people's experience with me wasn't exactly the same. And then the team I had as well, we did a proper three sixty, not a three sixty when you own it and hey, what do you think of me? We'll go out to lunch after,

but a proper independent three sixty. I've got similar feedback that people said they liked me, they saw the passion, but I was too pushy, and that it was very much we're doing it this way, jump on or jump off. Also, that had been strengthened by sport. You've worked in sport you don't actually coach in sport. You tell because you've got a whole bunch of men and women to make the team and they're highly competitive. So that was a

slab for me. It was like a big wet fish across the face harps where it's like, God, I think I can communicate, and I pride myself on being caring and collegiate, but I'm coming across to some people as a bit of a knob shit and it hurt. The feedback hurt.

the way, I'm not going to do that. I wouldn't even think of it because you do a great job. But in this hypothetical. My intentions are good. I want to help you build a better business and brand and podcasts and give all that. Right, So my intention in this hypothetical might be good, but your experience might be why is he criticizing me? Why is he blah blah blah.

So positive intention, negative experience happens all the time. So that's the first problem that's happening constantly in business and various organizations. The second problem is that the boss or the leader or the coach doesn't know that it's happening because they just assume that other people think like them. There's this I don't know if we spoke about it last week, but there's a thing in psychology called false consensus effect.

like Craig Harper all the time is Craig Harper. And so I would be silly to assume that what means ABC for me means ABC for Andrew and the listeners, And so I am constantly at least aware of this idea of how do I share this thought, this idea, this message in a way that connects optimally with Andrew or with Andrew's audience. How do I do that? What

does that look like? Because I'm not talking to me, And back to that thing of you know, I can't be objective about me because I am me, so in a way, I care more about what you think of my speaking skills than what I think because you're more representative of the audience than I am, because you're an outsider looking in. I'm it. So this idea of and some of the things that we need to own up to and think about we don't like owning up to and thinking about because it means, you know, I've got

a like you. Oh well, maybe I am selfish or maybe I am or.

talking to you. Not long after that, about a year eighteen months, I did a deep dive on purpose because it started to open that Oh, okay, what is this about? How do I get that nice blend between X? And you wouldn't have done the two gigs yesterday, You wouldn't have one of Australia is in podcast if you didn't have people connecting with your message, following and liking. So you do need that, but you got to marry that. And I think that's that authenticity. I see, you've got

you rock up, You're comfortable who you are. Hey, take it or leave it, this is me. But you've got that nice dance between the two. So it's inner and there's a real drive and purpose and connection. But you're connecting with others. So back to that question. Have you had an experience like me where you thought you were showing up in one way and you got feedback that was really disconnected to how you thought you were connecting or showing up. Yeah, many times.

We like him, he's a bit funny, he's done. But probably about one in ten said something like he's intimidating. And I'm like, who fucking said that? What are their names? Where are they give me their addresses?

You had biceps on biceps, So I'm imagining back then you'd have your happy pants, you weightlifted pants. You'd have your boots or you know, shoes are tight T shirt that's probably a couple of sizes too short because you got the pecks and got the delts, so physically you would have been quite intimidating.

as a goal to be intimidating. But I mean the bottom line was that I was to some people, and so I had to I had to think about that. I had to lean into that and try to understand what I was doing and how I was being that created that impact or effect for some And of course you can't control everyone's response. But you know that was good for me because and since then I've kind of like, I realize that I am, even forty years later, I'm

a work in progress. I'm I get trapped an ego, I'm insecure at times, I have imposter syndrome at times, still all of those normal human things. But I think what is you know, what is good is somebody in your position who you are a leader, you have followers, you have you stand in front of groups. So do

I all of this? But I think when you genuinely, not disingenuously, but when you genuinely talk about your own bullshit and your own fuck ups, and your own idiosyncrasies, and your own insecurity and your own fear, while also sharing some strategies and stories and techniques that might help people think do be better. People value that more and trust you more because you're not some fucking guru pontificating from a stage who's living this flawless, perfect existence, in

this perfect marriage with these perfect fucking genetics. You know, there's some I can't start. That's and so for me, like there's a lot of similar models to this, but I put people into kind of all our different cells into five categories. The first is public you. These are self explanatory, then personal you, then private you, then secret you, then future you the you that you want to be so personal public you is the one that everyone sees.

There's no real filter. You know, you're not you kind of You'll let that version of you connect with the world, and the world see that version of you. Then there's kind of personal you, which is more you know, family friends, maybe five to ten people get personal you. And then private you might be your partner or your mum, or your sister or somebody one or two maybe that are very close and pretty much know everything. Then secret you that's just you. That's the shit that you're telling no one,

the feelings that you're sharing that insecurity that you. And then future you is or potential you is who I might want to be and who I might want to become. And I try as much as possible to share private me with the world, like the stuff that most people wouldn't the stuff that I'm genuinely scared of. The stuff that I think I might do well or poorly, my own insecurity, my own you know, the space between my values and my behavior. Am I a great role model?

I know that I've got pretty good skills. I've got lots of miles on the clock, a pretty good situational and social and public awareness in that context, and I know that I can walk out on a stage do my job forty five minutes, sixty minutes, bibbity bobbedy boo skills, blah blah blah. Tell the stories, you know, share the messages. Thanks very much. I'm Craig Harper. You're all fucking awesome. Yeah, there's that, and that ain't terrible, but for me, that's

more choreograph, scripted and performative. But the stuff that blows me away and people away, and it's not about Craig Harper, but is when you get beyond that show and you start to create a level of emotional, psychological, sociological, maybe even who knows, spiritual connection that's got nothing to do with any performance or script or plan. You're just raw,

and you're just in the moment. And you know, I don't not that they're bad, but I don't use videos or slides or I just get up and see where we go. And sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's it's fucking amazing. And as you and I have said before, the amazing's got nothing to do with me. I'm just a conduit to the amazing. And when that sounds like bullshit and people go, eh, but there's stuff that's happened in my own workshops and seminars that I can't even explain, but something happens.

in Egypt. So I was in denial about some of those habits and behaviors often linked to not low self esteem, but absolutely not confidence where you can be there in your own skin. So that was a big shift for me. And I can hear that's happened with you from the VIC fit and other examples. But when I listen to you and I catch up with you, I've seen you present a few times as well. You're really authentic. There would be a bunch of people here listening who are

shit scared going I can't let people know the private me. God, I'm not going there, let alone the personal mate, because I've been taught my leaders said, all right, young fella, young lady, when you turn up, leave your shoes and your personality at the door. And when you're working for this bank, consulting firm, telco, insert government organization, you've got to be the job description of the role. We don't want your personal shit. Now that's changed a lot, thank goodness.

But it's authentic authenticity rather than the hey, now, let me be authentic with you. I don't think i've shared this story with you. A guy that I used to work with, lovely guy. It leads a big and he said, Mazie, can you come and watch me speak. I'm speaking at our open forum town hall, and I want you to help me because you do good speaking and stuff. So I'm watching him and he started a bit nervous, a bit dry, and then he opened his arms and I

think he'd listened to Brene Brown. He said, now, let me be authentic with you, and I felt like, so, now let me kick you in the balls. God, don't say to people, let me be authentic. You be authentic. You do authentic. I see you do that beautifully. I see some people now they do it, and I feel like I need a shower.

Like I love fucking making people laugh. I love telling stories. I love manipulating the crowd in a good way, you know. But then woven through that is vulnerability and a bit of pain and a bit of embarrassing stuff and a real insight into a real human experience that isn't always shiny and beautiful. But I think, you know, that's the thing of trying to create this synergy and symphony of messages and entertainment and connection. Because the other thing, too

is like what people don't think about. You know. You could get on stage, or I could get on stage, and we could share what is the most mind blowing information of all time, with no nuance, with no story, with no peaks and troughs, with no humor, with no and not only does it not have a good impact, it has a terrible impact in you. And I never get any more work.

There's this thing that used to have in councils where you'd have books WITHZ They used to have real books where you go there and you'd actually you'd put your name and you'd wait for a book. But at Glennys where I grew up, James Collin, great kid, James, real nerd, but he was always the first to get the book. So harps. I'd have to wait two weeks to do my geography assignment. Can you imagine saying that to a kid, Now, wait two weeks until you go get the books? They go, No,

I was just downloaded off the internet. So that's part societal.

and by Wednesday week. You're a black belt, right, And I was talking to him about I said to him, if I started now, when would I get my black belt? If I went three four days a week and I'm sixty You said, well, you might never get it. Let's say that. I'm like, okay, thank you. And then he said, but oh, probably, you know, if your body didn't fall apart ten to fifteen years. I'm like, fuck, really, It's like yeah, yeah. And that's the thing, and that's why

they're held in really high regard. He's a second or third dan black belt. They've earned it. It took him, and he's good at it. It took him a decade to get his black belt, right, and he's good. He's a natural. But this is the thing, is that whatever we do, whatever we're doing for the first time, we're a white belt, and the journey of getting you know, metaphorically strangled and choked and tapped and kicked in the dick and punched in the face and all of those things.

You know, this is the journey. And also not only is that the journey, that's the practical reality of becoming good or mastery or high performance or human optimization or whatever you want. To call it. But not only is the outcome then worth it, it's the journey that is the real value because the journey changes you. You know the thing that we the thing that we want in our culture, which is we want success everybody. Nobody wants to be

a failure. Of course, success means different things to different people, and nobody wants to be a dud. Nobody wants to be unhealthy, nobody wants to be broke, nobody wants to be unpopular, nobody wants to fail. But also nobody wants to be uncomfortable. Well, guess what if you're not at least prepared to get uncomfortable on a semi regular basis that growth, that learning, that adaptation, that improvement, that high performance, it's unlikely.

I love as well. So you can tell us a little bit about the self awareness pyramid, and so is that something you've come up with or have you adapted Maslow Blooms taxonomy. I'm thinking of a whole bunch of other frameworks.

so there's four levels. The bottom of the pyramid is what's called metacognition, which is thinking about thinking. And you know, the truth is that most people don't think about how they think very often, if at all. They just think and they believe their thoughts and those thoughts become beliefs. And also the idea of thinking about the origin of the way that my mind works, like why do I think and distill information? And see the world the way

that I do. What is the lens or what is the window through which I view and understand and process the world? What are the things that create my windows? So like blease, values, ideas, experiences, bias, faith, prejudice, like all of those things which we all have to some extent, that kind of forms the window through which I view the world. So if I'm a you know, I'm a Vegan, I'm going to look at the world a certain way.

If I'm a Catholic, so too, if I'm a black belt in jiu jitsu and some guys coming up to me, I might view that quite differently to if I'd never done any kind of self defense. And so, you know, I'm an only child who grew up in a Catholic family. I was a morbidly obese child, I went to only Catholic schools. I grew up in rural Victorious. So all of these things are variables that shape or inform my thinking.

So that one of the biggest challenges for us in this journey towards what we might call greater self awareness or even consciousness, is to become aware of our lack of awareness. It's like I become more conscious when I read recognize my lack of consciousness, and by that I mean the autopilotness of our existence.

kids are now having kids. I'm not really connected with them because I've just been on this conveyor belt for years and years. And then it often takes a crisis, a relationship breakdown, losing a job, a big life event, and that can sometimes shift. But people don't have enough pain, so they're comfortably uncomfortable. It's like the just the tapping of a wall. You tap, tap, tap, tap. The wall doesn't crumble thirty years later, it's one tap and the

whole jipprop comes tumbling down. That self awareness and just flying through life on autopilot.

and leaning into that a little bit. So that's understanding that, you know, we've all been programmed and conditioned and recognizing where my programming, my cognitive, behavioral, emotional psychological programming ends and where me, Craig Harper, the clean slate, where do I start? Who am I beyond that? Like, beyond my programming conditioning beliefs and very kind of set ideas and ideals and ideology, like who am I beyond that? For me, that's a really curious kind of exploration.

And the people harps going through decades on autopilot, they just wake up their gray They're a monochrome version of gray, gray clothes, gray car, gray skin, gray hair, if they've got any gray life, because there's no thinking about how can I challenge this or what can I upgrade? So I love that whole notion of the regular iOS upgrade. And you've heard me bang on about this. Do you want your body to be stronger, fitter, fast, and more flexible, You've got to do reps and sets. It's exactly the

same with your thinking. Get out of that laziness or that comfort zone.

so this is not an easy idea. This is an idea though it's not an easy do. But it's an easy idea. It's just a construct. But the idea is to find a way to be able to do an inventory or a stock take on your own existence. And so the question that I ask people, individuals and audiences all the time is what's not working? Like, what's the thing that you're doing that doesn't work. What's the thing

that you're doing with your body that doesn't work. What's the thing that you're doing with your kids you're parenting your relationships that doesn't work. What's the thing that you do with money that's fun looking stupid, but you still keep doing it? Like on Planet you, you are always

getting data, You're always getting information. Now, the challenge in the middle of the mayhem and the chaos that is the continuity and the never endingness of our existence, the challenge is to be able to hit the metaphoric pause button and say, okay, if I continue on my current trajectory of habits and thinking, beliefs and behaviors and outcomes. If I continue on this trajectory, will my life be better or worse than a year, two or five? The answer for many of us is worse. Okay, that's not

self loathing, that's awareness. Now what to do with the awareness? Okay, easier said than done. But how do I shift this? How do I get out of this groove, this pattern, this behavior that is more self sabotaged than self serve? How do I do that? And so, you know, we think about building a business, our best business or best brand, or our best bank balance. You know, even we think about how would we build a house if we're starting

from scratch. You know, you would spend a year designing and developing and finding the land and colors and fittings and blah blah blah. But when it comes to building our best.

groundhog day existence. And it takes courage, and it takes effort and energy and probably a bit of discipline, self control and discomfort, which are not very sexy things in twenty twenty four. But you know, it's just that's just what's required, you know. And I always say I can tell you what you want to hear all the truth to an audience.

And these are questions that we ask not because we necessarily have to agree with the other person or endorse the other person, or let's be honest, even like the other person, because in some situations we're going to work with people we don't really want to. That doesn't make us terrible, it makes us human. But the point is not to align or connect or endorse or agree, but rather to understand, you know, seek first to understand and

then to be understood. So me trying to understand. And I've worked with many people that are so not like me, not better or worse, just different. But everything from you know, the military and Victoria police, to blokes in prison, to addicts, to alcoholics, to the general public to people with all kinds of abilities and disabilities. And in the middle of that, I'm just trying to understand them so I can work with them or help them or support them. So that's theory of mind.

with similar principles. It's about being present in the moment without judgment. So if you're on your mobile phone scrolling all the time, if you're on autopilot through the decades, there is no mindfulness. It's the opposite. It's mindlessness, and

it's often driven by distraction. So I'm really curious, have you looked at that thread of mindfulness, because as you're saying a lot of that about both my self awareness of that metacognition and then other people just being able to drop into that mindful state, being present in the moment without judgment. Where does the mindfulness research sit in with this?

mind with my mind. Oh great, how's that going? But yes, I trying to turn down the chaos, trying to be the calm in the chaos. That Eastern philosophical construct of equanimity is being able to be in the busyness and the mayhem, but without being chaotic or without being busy myself, you know. And for me that's been a real journey too, because my mind is busy, busy mind. Not so much an overthinking mind because that tends to be more.

being around me? And again this is really this comes from a space of or a place of wanting to be able to create better interactions with others, to be a better leader communicator, teacher, you know, employer, employee, athlete, So that whoever it is that I'm interacting with, that I'm working alongside, that I can understand or have some insight into what it's like being around me, just so that we have better communication, we have better apport, we

have better connection. We can in work situations, you know, figure things out, solve problems, resolve conflict, agree to disagree.

this out, nobody else has. I have to be really prepared to hold onto my beliefs loosely, because you think about beliefs and ideas that they are intertwined with who we are. Then now my identity is tied in into being right about that thing.

of the same religion. So I spent a lot of my life reading the Bible, being philosophically theological, you know. And so I have a very specific background and training and programming and over the years, relationships and all of this stuff that I was fully immersed in, and now all of these years later, what I have to what I have to say anyway, based on how I now see the world and see myself in the world. That truth is I don't know, like and people don't like

saying I don't know. But is there a God? I don't know? Is there is there a you know, eternity as we understand it in the Christian sense? I don't know. Is the Bible, you know, really the inspired word of God? I don't know. But I can think things and believe things. But also I have to be courageous and say this is what I think, This is even what I believe. But could I be wrong? Yes, I could be Could I be wrong? Yeap?

God's got a purpose for you all these things. Anyway, through a range of really kind of weird and wacky from the outside looking in weird and whacky events, I ended up going to what was essentially a fundamental Christian church. And you know, I was, for one of a better term, balls deep. And I went to that church for about four years, and I was nineteen to twenty three, maybe

five years, four or five years. And honestly, most of it was good in that I learned about, you know, like humility and purpose and a whole lot of things that I needed to learn. And you know, I definitely didn't master anything, but I I was a pretty good student because I was genuinely curious about all of that. But one of the byproducts of that is so for five years I didn't have sex, I didn't swear I didn't. I lived a very monastic, disciplined life.

living happily ever after, which is nice. But but for me, that was just that was what was required.

are cast out into the metaphoric darkness. And so this is the problem that I have with any of these ideological cults of thought, is.

meant well, right. But you know, there are certain people who can say pretty much anything and back it up biblically. And this might sound weird to some of your listeners, but in certain environments you can make pretty much anything sound reasonable with the right scripture if you're talking to a vulnerable person, you know. And so for me, I wanted to go deeper than just thought. I wanted to open a spiritual door. I wanted to see what was there,

what was beyond the cognitive curtain. And the thing is that, you know, this is maybe another day, but you think about when we open that door, and we kind of think about what is and this is getting out of the psychology in the cognition space, of course, but even there is there such a thing as a spiritual world, what does that even mean, and there's so many things that we will experience in a lifetime that don't make sense in inverted commas in psychology, and so we go, well,

that's bullshit, that's not real. Maybe maybe it's not real. Maybe it is real, Maybe we just can't understand it with our understanding, with our frame of reference, with our version of what is real and what is not.

this topic? Number two, let's dig into the science, and we've done that metacognition at the base theory of mind, metaperception and meta accuracy, and I've got a question on metaccuracy to wrap up. And then three I wanted to talk to you about transitions, but I had no idea. We talk about that, and I understand a lot more about you and what has driven you to do this, So thank you for sharing all that.

add some eyes. So I put this nice model together. As you know, working with sporting teams, mate, you've got to have a science base or an evidence base, but keep as simple so the boys and the girls understand that. So we're doing all this work around fire and ice, it was really landing. What do you do to up regulate? What do you do to down regulate and then one of the players come up and said, where's prayer. I'm like, ah,

how remiss of me. So we've added prayer because prayer can be meditative and it can be calming effect or prayer can be tapping into purpose or a higher power to add a bit of heartbeat and add a bit of fire as well. So just surrounding that out for a lot of people who do listen. Obviously we're talking about extreme, but a lot of people will do prayer. And I say this to a lot of my Pacific boys, they go, I find it hard to meditate or do mindfulness.

Do you go to church every Sunday? Yeah, just drop into being present in the moment and connect with your heart rate and just think about other stuff and just be in the moment without judgment. Now, transitions, Do you consciously transition from one thing to the next, Because when I look at your job description, it's pretty similar to mine, and you'll go from a podcast to a meeting about a future project or a book, and then you go to lots of workshops and you've got your hands and

lots of different things. Do you have a process where you transition in and transition out because when I look at that model, that whole metaaccuracy, I can't help but think there's something you do either naturally or it's just started the process way way way back to transition and to actually think how do I transition into this group and how do I show up authentically but for what they need.

they Like yesterday I did. I told you I did a real estate industry conference in Manly, and I had basically quite a brief brief so to speak, the organizers, and you know, I could go wherever I wanted as long as I was talking around that subject and I know, and then I had a different brief for the gig that I did in the afternoon. But as long as I stay in that in that domain, then I'm okay. But I don't. I don't have any big kind of

preparation process or you know. And I I think, because I've been doing it for so long and talking for so long, I try not to open doors that I'm not really knowledgeable about or qualified in, because it's just if I don't know a fair bit about it or understand it, then I shouldn't be talking about it. But yeah, I do. I find it quite easy to transition from podcasts to speaking gig, to coaching session to you know whatever, because it's for me, it's all just talking.

jazz hands. But I think what you're helping me understand to I love that you to call this episode something like Jazz Hands and metap perception or something Jesus Jazz Hands and five years with no jeers, Jesus Jazz hands and a less existence, where I just cracking myself up of my own jokes. I'm doing harp jokes on my podcast.

And so from an energy shift, you don't need to shift energy because you're doing what's authentic. You're doing what fuels you, so you can be personal private in public. So there isn't a real need to ramp up. So I'm just trying to catch up with that because I

still teach. It's really important for corporates, especially before they go into a meeting, to transition because some matter up more performance moments, and I'll always go through a framework three questions, and it's very much sport and military influenced. Number one, who's in the room to what's the context? Number three what does success look like? And if you can ask those three questions before every meeting, podcast performance moment,

you do pretty well what we miss. So a lot of people come out of that straight into the next thing. It's a little bit of a look back in the review mirror. Three more questions, what worked, what didn't? What can we improve next time? So sort of rolling between these performance moments. Yes, yes, look, yeah, I mean definitely I prepare in the sense that I'm well aware who I'm talking with and talking for and the outcomes that

I want to create. But yeah, I try to bring that very comfortable energy too, you know, there's not so much rah rah, you know, and that works for me. But I think what's really important to say here too, is that so for anyone who is thinking about whether or not it's doing a pub having your own podcast, or becoming a presenter or a professional speaker or a coach, or the way that Andrew does it in the way that I do it, that's just the way that we do it. That's not the best way, that's what works

for us. And I think that just like you know, we don't say what's the best diet, We say what's the best diet for you? Based on you know, your body, your your training, your you know, your age, or your genetic dispisition all of that, you know, So it's.

for me. I didn't want a bus. I didn't want to go to work. I didn't want to sit in a cubicle. I didn't want to wear a suit. I figured out all of these things I didn't want to do, and I'm like, what's the antidote to that. Well, the antidote is that I figure out how I can build something that's a synergy of making dough and having fun and learning and evolving and working with humans. And that's

kind of what I did. But I've spent thirty four years not having holiday pay, not having sick pay, not having any guarantees, not knowing what I would make next month, you know, a whole lot of vulnerability and exposure that most people would not like at all, But I thrive in that. That's my jam. I love that shit. But again I wouldn't recommend it.

with this. We're probably thinking of some similar speakers. You see and you go, oh, that was awesome, and then you see them the second time and go where's you. Yeah, So for people listening to this, I think you're the extreme with respect on just free range. But you've done loads of fucking work, made decades and decades, so you can rock up and you are that you projected you, and it's that beautiful blend public personal private, a little bit of secret every now and then, but it's the

narrative you're happy with. We see some other people are so choreographed, probably so uncomfortable with the real them that they put on this persona and mask, and that's draining. It really is draining. So I think for people listening to this, just think, where are you on that spectrum when you show up? Are you putting on the mask? Are you the phantom of the opera every single time? Or you're just rocking up as you probably for most

people this summer in the middle. And I think one of the lessons for me in this this discussion with you, mate, is about well, where am I happy being? And you've said this on your podcast when you've interviewed me. I'll do a bit more prep and I'm a bit more jazz handy on that stuff as well. But I found the lame way that suits me. And it's taken a while. And I love the feedback you gave me before, and I felt it the last podcast we did, I felt

we really connected. We did one a couple of years ago. I think I was more jazz hands sort of speaking at as well. As you get more comfortable in yourself, I think it's just it's energy fueling rather than energy draining. So that's a real takeout from this conversation.

that at fifty one, you're still growing and learning. At sixty, I'm still growing and learning like this is not normal, but fuck normal, fuck typical, like you know, and it's not about that We've got to be you know this in this endless pursuit of excellence. But you know, I know that if I can keep learning, evolving, growing while enjoying the journey and being me and still having a degree of contentment and calm, but also side by side, were still a little ambition, then why not you.

on my life. You. I really appreciate that. And secondly, why not at fifty one or sixty one or seventy one, or if someone's listening to this and you're twenty one, why not be in a stage of constant growth, and if we're going to get to one hundred, which I want to, I'm halfway there. And I just think on the mental skills side of my business, working with sporting teams and literally having the opportunity to work with great men and great women around the world. Now harps, I'm fucking loving it.

But I'm just scratching the surface, mate, And I really can see in five years and that and even ten years, I'm going to have so much better experience and better skills and better service in that area. That shit keeps me awake at night.

he's awesome. And he has a podcast called Behind the Mask as well, which is just kicking off and it's it's really it's funny hearing you say that, and we talk about this mask and we've spoken, he and I are spoken. You should get him on old chats him and see if you're interested.

the most you've ever sung in front of? And he goes ninety two and a half thousand, and I go, all right, well you've got me covered. Jeez, Like live at nine.

get to talk to us. And then they said, all right, now we're going to get everyone up and just do one or two minutes, and we're going to look at the progress and we're going to film you. And I went first. He said, all right, do you? It was I feel uncomfortable listening fu awful. I wanted to some sort of keynote presentation, which is funny with context, like I wouldn't say that I'm hilarious, but I think I'm situational funny or slapstick funny, so I know how to

make a crowd laugh. I did that, and you could hear crickets cricket. So guess what I did?

I go into state this is a bit cheeky. I shouldn't. I shouldn't pull back the curtain. But I'll tell you so when I've got Sometimes when i've got a corporate gig, say on a Friday, I'll go up the Thursday and I'll do what I call a private workshop for say thirty people where I'm staying, so I'll book a boardroom and the night before my corporate gig, I'll just I'll do a thirty person private workshop. Twenty to thirty people.

So it's small, it's intimate and I spend about three and a half hours with people and it's you know, there's a bit of presenting, but it's more organic where people can just ask me stuff and we can go wherever we go. So I've been doing those a fair bit as well, and they're fun. I like those because it's just, you know, it's very intimate and I'm used to being on a stage, but it's not that.