I get a groo because it's fatty Harps, it's Craig Anthey, Harper, it's the you project. It's oh bloody hell, I'm excited about today. Every now and then I just wheel out an old friend from my historical kind of cupboard. I just knock on the door. I dust off the cobwebs off both the cupboard and the person. And I've dusted the cobwebs off. Tammy van Wissa, Who we go? Oh my god? So far back?
Hi dam Hello, Craig. It's so good to see you. We did go really really far back. In fact, I don't even know whether we should mention how far back. It's just the years of ticking on, aren't they.
When did we meet? What do you reckon? What year was that? Was it? Maybe early like ninety ninety ninety?
Yeah, I was going to say early nineties, I reckon that'd be pretty close to you.
Yeah. Well, back in the day, I was trying to figure out this thing, and the world was trying to figure out this thing called personal training, and people like, well, that's not a thing, Harps, that's not a thing. It's never going to take off its bullshit. It's not an industry. It's not a profession. There's no course, there's no accreditation, there's no insurance. And I'm like, I think it's going to work. And you were an early adopter of it wasn't so much it was kind of pet slash coaching,
slash talking bullshit with me for an hour. Yeah, but there was a long time ago.
Right, It was a long time ago, but it was fantastic for me. It was like a breath of fresh air because as a pool summer, you know, with your head down looking at a black line all day. You know, you work hard doing that, but it's good to diversify. And it was so good to actually, you know, still be building muscle and working on different things, helping with prevent injuries and just build different strength that I couldn't do in the pool. So and the chatter, the chat
was just incredible. So you've got the mental health, the physical health, you have. It kicked every box.
Well, do you know what was funny is like, honestly, I mean when I met you, I hadn't even gone to UNI yet, although obviously and you had to train people. I've been working in gyms my whole adult life, and I owned a gym and all of that, but I didn't. You know, I look back and I think not that I was the high watermark or harp As was the high watermark. But we did okay, right, and in a time when people didn't even understand what the fuck a
personal training studio was. We can't say that on s and can we tam We can't say fuck no. We used to do bit of radio together everyone. And but I realize now like I was kind of lucky before because you and I, both of our default setting is friendly, chatty.
You know, both of us are a bit outgoing. And I think that the whole thing worked largely not because the exercise programming was mind blowing, although it was okay, but I think because it was just a good experience, Like it was fun like for me too, you know, to go somewhere and hang out with someone that you like and by the way, let's do some training exactly.
And this isn't that essentially what life's all about though, Like in everything that we do, we try and make our work life fun. And when it's fun, you get things done. But it's just the you know, you enjoy it, you look forward to it, and you know, speaking of being on, you know, a journey that you didn't know where you were going to go. I mean I was kind of in the same boat with marathon swimming at the time because you know, there wasn't a lot of benchmarks to sort of work off, so it was new
territory for me too. There weren't a lot of marathon simmers doing you know, strength training programs at that time, so I guess, you know, you got to push the envelope, don't you know. It's good to have new experiences and see what works and what doesn't, and you know, sometimes you hit the jackpot and you go, yeah, this is really good, and then everybody follows you after that. Yeah I knew that was going to be good, and all
of a sudden they're on board. But yeah, so it was a fabulous journey, and obviously the friendships is just the main thing that I think back like now, it was just an incredible time and just beautiful people wak to happens. All the trainers were fabulous, So yeah, they.
Were good times. And also, I mean, you were a pioneer in that there are a lot of you know, a lot of athletes who they would pretty much only do whatever it is. If they are a runner, they'd run. They're a swimmer, they'd swim. If they're a netballer, they'd play netball. The idea of I mean, and now it's proliferated and of course it's commonplace, but the idea of cross training, as the kids call it, it wasn't really
much of a thing back then. You're like you doing strength training, you running, you doing flexibility, balance, coordination, you know, high reps, low reps, muscular endurance, strength power. I know that it was done, but really that was just kind of that you know, where there is Obviously now swimmers do a lot of conditioning work and diverse kind of work, but back in the day, it was not that common, right.
No, Look, the only thing we had from memory was like these rubber stretch cords and that about all we did. That was our dry land program was to do a bit of stretch forward work. So that was, you know,
really you know all we did. So, yeah, it was a real pioneering time and the benefits are huge now and obviously, as you said that, it's well known, but back then it was kind of like new ground and yeah, and it was exciting to be in those times and trying new things, and I think you know, to diversify as the key with everything though, isn't it? As we keep If you try new things and you have different things in your life, it keeps it interesting, always learning
new stuff. You know some stuff, it doesn't work, you fail at no big deal, You learn a lesson, you move forward. So essentially it was really great times from that perspective. And I think you know there are simple life recipes in amongst all of that too.
Would you my audience who don't know who you are? Because we go into ninety countries, so there are going to be people going cool. I mean they would have read the intro probably, but give give people a little bit of a snapshot of your background, a kind of a bio without me reading anything out if you would.
Okay, So I going right back to the very beginning. I wasn't very sporty or adventurous at school, so I was like the fatter scale in the class got picked on. And I so wish I'd kept this award. But this was back in the politically you know, where it wasn't politically correctness. I got an award for the person least likely to succeed at sport.
Really hang on, hang on? Who Wow, Well you and I come from the same area. You're five years younger. But well I was called Jumbo at school, right, so it's same era. What who gave you that?
I think that was in grade five from memory, and it was like it was something that was done through the class and the teachers, you know, at that point in time, because everybody got different things. And so yeah, I just remember I wish I so wish I kept it. Wouldn't that be awesome to go what it is?
Yeah, I don't want to interrupt your story. But how did they not think that that was hurtful?
I don't know, Like I said, maybe reverse psychology that was. I don't know, but it just was different, just so different times. And yeah, so anyway, look, it turned out to be a really good thing because it actually did spare me on a lot as I progressed, because then my parents put me into swimming, and I didn't want to go kicking and screaming, but you know, they were intent on making sure that I was safe in the water. So there was you know, I think they persevered through
some pretty difficult times. I put up a pretty good fight, but eventually, you know, realized I wasn't going to get out of it, and I guess a bit of a change in mindset there. Started to like it, enjoyed it. Had a great teacher. You know, as happens in life, you click with someone who you know they're on the same level, you resonate with, then all of a sudden progress And so I then got asked to join the
swimming squad, which I did. That was like one of the greatest moments of my life, like you know, yeah, and did pool competitions for a number of years. I did States and nationals and didn't look did quite well at one States and stuff that, you know, didn't really hit the top level in the pool all. It just I discovered that I had a natural talent for insurance, like for doing things for a long period of time and being in the in the paining cave so to speak.
That was sort of plucked by foretapes and in training that was really evident. So so I got a bit jaded with the pool swimming. My parents put me into life saving and that's where I kind of had the introduction into open water. I really loved life saving because there was a big social component of it as well, and it was just different, challenging, you know, being out in open water. I love the fact that, you know,
it was different every time you went out there. And so then through the Life Saving Club, one day I saw like an ad for a race that was on from Bomorris to Frankston, a twenty kilometer swim in Port Philip Bay and Victoria. I thought I'd have a crack. One of my training mates were supposed to do it with me, and they pulled out at the last minute. So I was left there petrified, thinking, probably crack, How
am I going to make twenty kilometers? Like, you know, I think the furthest I've done in the pool was ten so it was kind of like doubling what I'd ever done before. So jumped in and so the biggest thing that frightened me was just basically sharks, you know, that was all I think. And I watched you know, and stupid me had watched Jaws the night before as a bit of like pre race prep, so you know,
really really just was off the mark there. But anyway, my whole race plan was to stay in the middle of the pack because I figured that if a shark pame it and hopefully take somebody else and I could use my sprinting ability to get back in quickly, good time. Good plan, which fell apart sort of about halfway into the race because the conditions got really hairy, and so people started to sort of separate and I lost track
of people, didn't see any feet in front of me anymore. Also, it's on my own all of a sudden, and you know, had the massive panic attack. I thought I'd seen a shadow in the peripheral of the goggles, and of course the Jaws music starts playing in the head, and I'm just fight off like my off, you know, and it's it's just so fascinating to me how the body can just you know, act on a thought and it's not a true thought, like obviously my mic, it was all
just made up, just and there. I was frightened and thinking I was going to get eating any segments, realized didn't happen, so kept going. Managed to get to the finish line first, go home, third overall, and I was approached by the Australian Marathon Swimming team coach. I didn't even know there was an Australian Marathon Swimming team back in those days. Wow, And he said, this is a sport and you're really good at it and would you like to explore you know that a bit fair. So
that's sort of how it started. And then I sort of started setting my sights on things like English channels and races around Europe because there was a big circuit you could do around Europe. Was huge in Europe, and even in the States there was quite a few races you could do. So kind of jumped on board with that and did okay, you know, and then started to
do a few individual challenges as well. So I've swum the length of the Mai River here in Australia, which is two four hundred and thirty eight kilometers, and that took me three and a half.
That's hang on, hang on all right, just pause. Okay, so we're going to go two and a half out, well, two four hundred and thirty eight kilometers. Hang on. I don't want to. I'm just there's so many questions right Cape bar away before we go to the Murray. Right, So your first you've never swum more than ten k's in a pool. Now, swimming in a pool is from the environment, very controlled wins not an issue. Currents are
not an issue. Sharks are not a fucking issue, you know, Like it's it's you know, it's the safest of swimming environments and the most controlled and the most predictable. So you've gone from that to doubling it in an uncontrolled, unpredictable environment. Probably not going to get eaten by a shark,
but it's happened. How would and I know it depends a lot on weather encurrents and particular beaches, but how would you compare twenty kilometers in that particular open water versus twenty kilometers in a pool.
Oh, difference between day and night. As you said, like, you know, you're in a lane. You've got you know, anti wave lane ropes, You've got a black line to follow, so you know, you know your distance, your water temperatures controlled. You know, it's a nice twenty sort of eight and a half degrees. You've got a coach standing at the end, sort of telling you what to do and giving you encouragement. You've got your teammates around as well. The water is
generally quite flat, you know, unless everybody's doing butterfly. That makes a bit wavy. But you know, other than that, it's all it's all very predictable, and so you know, you don't have a lot of fear, so to speak, you don't.
Know twenty I know this is dumb, right, and there's really this is bro science. But is twenty kilometers in the ocean twice as hard as twenty kilometers in a pool or it's impossible to make that kind of judgment.
Yeah, it's really hard to make that judgment. I think there's the monotony in the pool that's a killer for me, is that you know there's a set distance, so you know in your mind you're already calculating how many lapse it is, whereas you know out in the open water, you know you've got the just the horizon and so it's kind of like it's a long goal, but you're seeing yourself make progress, like in increments there as well.
But yeah, so it's very very hard to compare. But I would say that it is more difficult doing it in the open water, just because of the challenge of dealing with the known, the uncertainty and being being prepared for it. You know, as we know, like if you plan for it, then that's great. If you train in those conditions, you know what to expect or what I like to think. It's always planned for worst case scenarios.
And that became my thing, is when everybody did a swim or my training involved okay, in the planning stages, what could possibly go wrong, and let's train for it. So you know, if you're going to be swimming at nighttime, let's do some nighttime swimming training. If it's going to be huge waves, let's practice when you know it's really rough out there, just get out there and do it in those conditions. Or if it's going to be cold,
a lot of cold water acclimatization. So yeah, it's just a matter of preparing because it's all the mind, you know, the thoughts.
We think about, like running twenty kilometers, Like if you've I've done a few halves, right, and that's twenty one point one right, yeah, And I mean not that that in any way compares, but running twenty is not an easy feat. I mean, especially when you've you've literally done double like the furthest you've swum as ten, then you're doubling it. How did you firstly, how did your body pull up? If you can remember how long we saw and how much fucking food did you eat when you finally felt okay.
I was absolutely exhausted when I got to the end, like I was literally you know, I think I ran up the beach and then literally collapsed in a chair that they had there. And yeah, I was my stomach was tuning, so I wasn't super hungry just at that time. But later on that night, I ate and a friend actually offered for me to come around to sit in their hot sparks. I was so cold, so I did.
I went and sat in a hot spa. So I went straight pack in the water, but in warm water, just to kind of listen up the muscles a little bit. And it's funny because you know, I thought, you know, that was it, that I was going to rest for weeks after that. But my dad actually said to me, this was a So there was the twenty k race on the Saturday, and on a Sunday there was a one point six k swim and it was part of
a series. And he said, why don't you go back tomorrow and do the one point six And I went, nah, I can't do it. I'm just I'm too tired. And he was like and coming from so a bit of background. Dad grew up through tail end of the Second World War. You know, I used to had to train, you know, in the Dutch Army and they walked with packs, and he used to tell us, you know, how lucky we are and how much you can push yourself so much
further than what you thought. And told us stories about you know, family of six and you know, his father walking eighty kilometers to get them a loaf of bread so they could eat. So I really, you know, really sort of used to I guess work on my mental state in the background, said long story shot. I went back the next day and I churned up, and everyone thought I'd come to watch, you know, and I said, no,
I'm thinking about entering. And anyway, one of my competitors from the pool was there and we had like a bit of a rivalry, and she said to me, you're not going to do this age because i'd you anyway if you came here, because you will be exhausted from the twenty k yesterday. Well that kind of light, that kind of like was a defining moment for me. And I went, she thinks I'm tired, I'm bloody going to go in there and I'm going to show it so inted winning and I won the one point six the
next day. So yeah, bloody endurance jeans, I tell you what. So But again, you know, it's funny how things sort of happen and you just start to realize the more you stretch yourself and try.
I bet that girl was pissed off. Imagine if you did you go hey, Imagine if I was fresh ah well ah well did you go oh well you had to go? Good on you? Yeah, it's good, it's good seconds. Okay, Sure I didn't quite.
Say that, but I did have a very big grin on my face when I crossed the finish line and when the trophy presentations were happening, because they had like a podium and there was there was a little bit of prize money back in the day, you know really brain now one like one hundred bucks or something, and it was like, you know, life changing because never won
anything in my whole life. So yeah, so that was a big turning point for me too, Like you know, again, just the psychology behind it all of like, yeah, I thought I was stuffed. Heroes go back, and I found this extra tank worth of fuel in there and my body responded, so, yeah, so that was sort of like I guess the beginnings of the thinking around, Yeah, this is so interesting, the whole mind and body, and how much more we've got still in the tank.
How much of and we'll get to the Murray River in a moment. Twenty four hundred and thirty our kilometers. That's ridiculous. By the way, it's somebody's birthday tomorrow, I heard. How do you know that I know everything? How much of being an ultra endurance athlete, be it running or swimming. You're obviously a swimmer, but how much of that is about being able to manage pain?
Ninety five percent of it because you know, ultimately, you know, the mind drives the body. Body just listens to what the mind says. So really it's about how you control the mind and what things you feed it and sort of what attitudes and beliefs you have sure, and that's look. Part of that process is why you do the training, because part of that is putting yourselves in situations where
you know you're going to reach this wall. And so in training, your goal is to constantly push past the wall and working out strategies for how you're going to deal with that. And everybody's different, you know, every athlete's different, every person's different. So essentially that you know, one might listen to, I don't know, classical music, another might listen to rock music. We're all motivated by different things and
have different triggers that keep us going. And it's sort of life about kind of finding what works best for you. But at the end of the day, it's all about what's being fed. In between the world between your ears is where it all happens.
It's so true, so true, and I mean, I guess I know there were of course, psychologists have been around for a long time, but we're talking thirty odd years ago, so sports psych was really kind of in its infancy, if not at all, right.
Correct, I never saw a sports psychologist at all. It was Yeah, it was really basic back then. So as you said, what was real pioneering sort of an era where nutrition, you know, training methods. It was all you know, like I said, we were learning. I was working with my coach even to work out what kind of training to do for a marathon, because we was essentially taking you know, distance pool swimming training and then just extending upon it and trying to you know, work out what
we did. I mean I trained with a bucket toed behind me and all sorts of silly things we did. But yeah, it was all brand new stuff back then, so it was kind of a bit exciting. Has it Beenmark?
Has it been interesting for you as an excellad athlete but also somebody who I guess is a sports fan but also so understands to a level the science of competition and training and recovery. And has it been interesting for you to watch the evolution of sports science over the last few decades. Oh?
Absolutely absolutely, I think, Look, it's fantastic. I think in many ways it's been wonderful for the athletes now because you know, really the mental processes weren't thought about, and I guess the identity of an athlete too when they retire has been a really big thing because you know, you see yourself, you value yourself as the person who competes, as the athlete, the competitor. You base your whole world
on that because it has been your whole world. Whereas now you know, there's a lot more there's a lot more support, there's a lot more work done on outside of the pool on what do you want to do as a career and how you can further, you know, advance yourself and use all the skills that you got from you know, working hard and knowing the value of hard work and sitting in discomfort and taking that into
a work situation outside of the pool. So I really do think in those situations it's been fascinating and really really good. And the sports science of course, one of the people that fascinates me is Cam McAvoy at the moment because he's still pioneering right now. He's just made to come back and you know, his land based program is so different. He's not doing massive swimming. I think he swims three times a week and he's just made to come back and won of the world championships and
he's obviously qualified for this round team. So it is I love. I love seeing how people go about things in different ways and sitting new benchmarks. It's just great.
How old is he?
Oh, gosh, good question, I'd say. I'd say be in his late twenties.
Get a guess what about I'm just looking at I follow this guy on Insta? Do you have Insta? Grandma? Are you on it? Are you on the Instagram? Grandma.
Oh, yes, I've had I've had to go into that side of things. It's not my forte but I'm learning.
Now. Have you seen that, I'm sure you've seen Ross.
Edgeley Yes, rosientially, yes, absolutely, yes, Hey everyone.
If you want to see a fucking freak, so just Ross r O W S E D G L E Y on Instagram. He is like he's his body.
I mean he's short and he's chunky, and yes, I mean he looks like at times if you didn't know, like depending on what side cycle or phase cycle there's a bad word, but phase of his trained cycle maybe, but he can look like a bodybuilder.
Like I've never seen a swimmer so jacked, Like swimmers are generally in really good shape, but not too many of them.
I mean he's reprinters yeah, yes, for sprinting, but not yet not to be ripped like you were saying, like he does.
And that's the contradiction, is he's ripped off his head and he's an endurance swimmer.
Yes, yes, yes, although he did change his body composition before he did his swim round Great Britain, so he does. I think he's got a sports psychology background as well, and physiology, so he's very attuned to trying new things as well. So I think he did go on about a different diet when he was doing his longestwim. So when he prepares, he kind of changes things around so that he knows he's going to need extra body fat, you know, to cope with certain conditions and for flotation.
And yes, he is working against it though he's not your typical it's not your typical long distance summar sort of makeup.
Basis completely fucking mad, but also he's fucking mad but awesome. It's a nice combo. Yeah, I remember him, he was on I think he was recently on. I didn't watch it, but everyone's like, hey, Craig, did you watch did you watch a Thing with Chris Hemsworth which was about living longer? And did you watch that? Tim? Yeah?
I loved it. It was a great series, fantastic. Yeah, so he was on that, right, Yes he was. He was, and he helped Chris because Chris went I'm trying. I think where they went they went somewhere very cold where there was you know, freezing water, and he trained Chris to swim in the cold basically, just you know, like the whim Hoff method, you know, trying to control your breathing. And he made him, you know, and we didn't make him, but Chris Hamsworth swim out to a boy and back
again and it was very cold. Was it was like, you know, two degrees one degree is sort of type things. So and he did it. Yeah, and it was really fascinating to watch. And he's a great character. Ross is a great character. So I've got his book Resilience as well, which I read and that was that's fantastic.
You know what. Also digressing momentarily, I like Chris Emsworth because, yeah, he's a good look and he's fucking six foot fifteen and he's rich, he's a Hollywood But he has a crack, doesn't he He does like he really has for a guy who he doesn't need too. He's fucking rich and famous, he doesn't need to do all that horrible shit, but he dives in that makes me respect him. What Like, of course he's an awesome actor and all that he's famous, good,
you know, that's cool. But the shit that I love is that he really seems to be any way down to earth and has a real crack at some horrible shit.
Yeah, look, that series is fabulous. I can't think of the name of it, but I highly recommend it because there's also a part where he tries out like fasting, and he fasts for like I think it's over twenty I think it does a twenty four hour fast, maybe even longer. And all his mates, you know, said that they join him, and of course he's absolutely dying because he's exercising and doing things as well. And they go away and get pizza and he can smell it, and
it's just hilarious the reaction. Like he really is. He really is a great, down to earth guy. He seems like the kind of guy that you know you'd be mates with. He's really down to earth and humbled.
I think so it was it was called Limitless, So Limitless I'm producing and hosting now all at the same time.
It's called Multi Talented as usual.
Well, I think you can watch it also on Disney, so if you have Disney, everybody you can. And I'm sure a lot of people speaking of being jacked and ripped and do you know what, this could literally be
a fucking three hour podcast. I've just looked down at half an hour in I haven't even got through the intro, tell us a little bit about I've always wondered about and I know this is not an exact science, but you know, Ross Edgeley is an anomaly because he does ultra endurance and he's ripped, which means he's less buoyant because he's got less fat, which means correct me if I fuck any of this up. But he needs to expend more energy energy to stay high in the water
because muscles, muscle basically sinks. He's like a fucking swimming rock. Yeah. Yeah, he's more dense. What about how did you like when you did you know, the English channel multiple times you did lock Nest? You did? I think you did Locknest in New Yeah?
Yeah? Yeah?
And what was that other one where you broke the New York City to Sandy Hook which was thirty five miles? Yeah? Do you when you're going in to do these ultra long events, even the Murray River, like, do you do you have to say, well, my body fat needs to be twenty five percent before or is it not done like that? How does it work?
Well? Again, we were just winging it, so you know, there was no one you know, Look, I did have at my squad I had a lovely girl by the name of Julie Toldberg who was into sports science, and she would do my and she get the calipers out and do my body fat and we did. We were trying to increase it. I didn't have I worked out targets. I just plucked targets from the air, basically because we
weren't sure. I mean, look the really I kind of didn't really take putting on weight too seriously at the beginning, but I went over to the English Channel with my brother in ninety three, my brother John and I. I was serious about putting on weight. So I put on ten kilos because everybody that is one swim where there's quite a bit of benchmarking. You know, lots of people as from the channel, so there's a lot of information, so we knew we'd have to put on weight. My
brother thought it would be fun. His perspective was to be the skinniest and the fastest man across the channel, and he was quite muscular. But it didn't work out that way. He got hypothermia four kilometers away from the coast of France, actually disappeared under the boat. And Dawn Fraser has been a mentor and coach for us for a long time, very huge support. And she was actually on my brother's boat and jumped in and pulled him back on board the boat, gave him mouth's mouth resuscitation. Wow,
she broke. I think she broke three ribs in the process of dragging him back on board the boat.
So scary know that I did not know that.
And Dawn wouldn't have been twenty five years old either at the time. She would have been what fifty on at the time.
Yeah, I'd say she would have been about fifty, so, but she's just amazing she and it happened so quickly, Like I remember she because I had my own boats, I was assuming separate to John, and we went close close to each other in terms of physical distance. But she apparently had spoken to him not very long before and said to him, how are you going? Because she was getting a bit worried, And I'd actually flued her in and said, listen, keep an eye on John because
I'm worried about him with the cold. And so she'd spoken to him, said you know, you're feeling ok, and He's gone, yeah, yeah, fine, And then like about five minutes later, Hyperthermi, you're set in, so it kind of really was a big shock and a wake up call to you know, the reality of how scary hypothermia is. And so from that point on we kind of worked
out some protocols as well. So now we know that when you're in a hypothermic state, you can answer very simple questions, but if you're asked to give your date of birth, or you know, answer anything in detail, then your cognitive thinking is just not there. So that helped us formulate plans. So that became the benchmark for the rest of the swims I did that were in cold water, and I knew that if I couldn't answer Dawn, she
pulled me out. So that was good book. So John look, I managed to get him back to England and she went into hospital and he recovered and he actually wanted to go back the following year and try again, and this time he put on weight. In fact, he put on twenty two kilos.
Ye. Talk about talk about one extreme to the other.
Ye.
He he did just put a bed at McDonald's or something, did he pretty much?
I think I think part of it. I think Dawn might have said to him that drinking stout and lemonade was a really good diet plan, so you know, hey, so he was like the it was like the michelin Man, you know, the blink, ready to simm across. So we went back the following year in ninety four, and yeah, we became first brother and sisters in the channel together. So he made it cost no worries at all, So
huge leaning experience. And yeah, so hypothemia definitely. And the floatation, like the body fat just makes you like sit on top of the water. It's such a big difference, Like honestly, you literally pop onto all the water.
Yeah. Well, I mean imagine with an extra twenty two kilos and probably twenty of that was fat. I mean, you're just gonna be like a little fucking cork with arms and legs.
Well you are, you are. But there is obviously also a trade off, as you would know, because you have to pull it. You still have to you know, you just have to drag that amount of weight through the water. So there's you know, there's a compromise with everything. But again, you train for that, you get used to that, so you've got to do that to actually make it. So that's the price you pay.
What was the most you ever lost on a I mean not say the Murray River because that was over months, but on a you know, like an event.
Okay, so I lost. I've lost ten kilos multiple times, like summing the channel across baths straight. I lost eleven kilos in seventeen hour. I was in forty six minutes. Yeah on, hang on, just just soak that up. Everyone you lost? Did you say eleven or ten eleven? You lost eleven kilos in seventeen hours? Yep.
Yeah, you should start running programs. You're going to get a million people signing up for that. Yeah.
They'll get their toads in the freezing order and go for half an hour and decide that's it.
Though.
That's the problem, isn't it. Like you've got to be willing to do the hard yards. I think that's you know.
So where did you swim that? For that? Where did you Did you tip off at Wilson's prom or.
No, I went the other way. I started in Tazi, So I started at King Island and I swam to Apollo Bay. That was I did a lot of research, and so obviously logistically I was looking for a finishing point near civilization as well that if something happened, I could be taken to a hospital. So that's why we chose King Island again obviously with some resources there and finished at a holiday.
So yeah, I mean, like, honestly, it's it's not a sport that you do because you want to be rich and famous.
Right hardly.
I mean, I mean if I was, if you were my kid, I would have said, throw those fucking goggles away, here's a tennis racket, get out there.
Exactly I do. And it was funny because I did use Obviously, when you go out to sports nights and things, you do get to mingle with other sports people, and you know, the tennis players would all be complaining about the couple of hours training that they had to do in the middle of the day. You know, I should have been a tennis play the same amount of work and training into tennis. If I had just any bit
of talent, surely I would have done better. But no, look, there was you purely do it for the challenge, you really do. It's a personal I guess experience. It's a wanting to test yourself, push your limits to the ultimate extreme, and it's addictive. I think once you start doing that, you want to do more of it. And with so many endurance sports, I think you're right on the edge, you know, you right on the edge of discovering what your body can can't do and her mind.
Yeah, it's one of the it's one of the one of these sports in the world or events in the world, sports in the world where the gap between the male and the female bodies not that big, is it? Because you know, and there have been I think more than a few times where and we see that there's another lady who's fucking amazing. What is her name to me? But she's no not a swimmer, a runner. Now this this, this incredible woman is winning ultra endurance runs, beating all
the chicks and the blokes. She's not winning the women's bit, she's winning the overall events and blokes. A big I mean, yeah, I think, I think, yeah, it's incredible.
Oh it is it is? It really is.
Yeah.
There comes a point where there's the.
Courtney de Walter. I think that's her name, something like that.
I was going to say that I have read about her and I couldn't quite think of her name as well, But you're right, Courtney to Walter. I saw something about her the other week and just went wow it is and sitting benchmarks. The thing is is that once one woman does it, then belief the power of her being a role model and instilled in that belief insie. I bet you'll start to see more women now coming through because they just need that one person to do it.
And then all of a sudden, it's like the floodgates have been open, like hey, a woman can do it. So it's really it's such a powerful thing when one person does it.
Amazing. All right, let's talk about the Murray River, which you did over three and a half months, two four hundred and thirty eight kilometers. Now for my international listeners, of which we have quite a few, the Murray River is a river that essentially separates to Australia in States, which is Victoria and New South Wales, yes, go on.
And then flows into South Australia. Basically yeah, so yeah, and it's a life club for Australia too because there's a lot of our food is grown in the Murray daleing basin region, so it's a very important river on so many levels.
But tell me about that, tell me about prepping for that doing that. Did you swim one hour a day, ten hours a day, did you have days? Like? What was that about?
So again, I'd done a lot of planning. I'd actually, you know, traveled a lot of the river prior to the swim because the logistical side of things was really challenging because I had to have obviously a crew with me. I had to have a support crew in the water. Yeah, I had to have a support crew on land as well, because at the end of the day, you know, when you finish something, you need a camp to go to, you need food, you need all the resources to keep
you going. So and then you know, we had caravans, two caravans basically traveling the first part because some parts you're remote, other times you're in caravan parks. But again, it's all difficult to plan because everybody when you book into a caravan park or accommodation along the way, what data you riving? Well, I don't know, I don't know.
Like I had a rough plan. I broke the river into four pieces, so you know, I set sections, segmented the river and had goals in my mind where I wanted to be and what I wanted to swim each day. But like life, things don't work to plan, and some days you're tired. Some days you run into a snake, some days you run into a log. You know, there are things that happen. The water is freezing, so you don't get as far as you thought you would you're tired.
So for me, I was trying to break a record that was set by a gentleman by the name of Graham Middleton. And he was actually the first person to the length of the Murray and so he had set the benchmark at one hundred and thirty eight days. That was the goal to try and break his records. I kind of had planned my swim to try and you know,
just get in sneak in before that. So you know, the problem that I found was I actually announced really what my goals were, so a lot of the media knew I was aiming to be like say, let's say at one of the towns, at a Chuka buy a certain period of time. So then when I didn't get there by those times, of course the media be negative like, oh, she's behind her goal, she's not going to make it lower.
So again, you know, if I go back and do my time again, I'd approached it in a different way, But it was just it literally became about doing it day by day. That's what I focused on. Had to really just concentrate on one day at a time, and I had a plan to swim sort of between six and eight hours a day. That was the goal. And sometimes i'd break that up and do three or four hours in the morning, you know, have lunch, and then go back in and do another sort of three hours
in the late afternoon. But again that all changed with the conditions because when I started it was early November. I was simming in the snow melt coming down from Cosiasco, so it was like a crisp sort of seven degrees in the water.
Wow.
And then gradually as I headed towards South Australia, which was about two thousand kilometers. By the time I got to South Australia, we had a hotter summer on record and it was fifty six degrees in the shade, so like I couldn't swim in the heat of the day because it just get burnt to a crisp. I mean, the Murray River was twenty nine degrees.
It was that hot, fifty six degrees.
Yes, in the shade. When we went through border clips like it was just it was unbelievable, off the charts, like seriously, it was incredible. And that was, like I said, when we went through, they had the thermometer outside, so that's how we knew what temperature it was.
Now I'm just converting that so to our international listeners, fifty six degrees celsius. Fucking hell, it's like one hundred and thirty three degrees.
Yep, yep. It was insane.
How did you not melt well?
So then we had to come up with a different plan. So you have to be, you know, willing to change
your plans, and so we diverse five. We thought, okay, the best way to approach this was to start really early in the morning, so first light, as soon as the sunrise came up and it was safe for me to swim, they could see me in the water I was in, and I'd just do as much as I could, say, you know, I might start at five thirty sort of thing and swim till eight thirty nine o'clock, and then we'd and then we'd rest through the heat of the day and then i'd go back in again, like you know,
six o'clock sort of thing and swim till nine o'clock, so we had to just make use of whatever daylight hours we could at the beginning and end of the day. Yeah, to try and make progress and just thinking outside the box. I didn't plan on that, Like, I didn't expect it.
So I know there weren't I know, there's lots of planning, but the science back then is not the science now. But did you have did you have a nutritionness? Did you have any idea of calories in and out and like was your goal to maintain weight and that levels through the swim or it wasn't in depth.
Yeah, look, it wasn't very in depth. I didn't have a nutritionness. I didn't have really anybody like you advising me. Again, it was all fled by the seat of your pads. I had a set of scales, you know, which I stood on every now and then because we were camping, so like, you know, until we got to halfway. Then we were on a house boat and that was really awesome. But you know, you can be on the side of a riverbed, you know, so it kind of it's pretty basic.
It's pretty basic. So you're just trying to eat enough to keep your weight up and just you know, have the energy to keep going.
Really you must have had I mean like still logistically and practically you must have had quite a few. But you know, you think about the caravans, think about who's going to beare food, who's going to give you a rub, who's got you know, like you must have had some kind of medical contingency plan. There must have been a few people involved.
Yes, yes, there was a lot of people. I had a support crew of twelve to fifteen people traveling with me along the way.
Wow.
So with roles, you know, like my mum did a lot of the cookies, so when I said didn't have a nutritions, I had my mum there, so she knew what I liked and didn't like and was really good. So and you know a lot of a lot of really great friends obviously that worked with me before. So yeah, so for me, the resources that I tapped into was the Royal Life Saving Society. So because I've done so
much life saving, lots of friends. So the boating squad, you know, they had their IRBs and they're all trained obviously, you know for rescue situations and for medical situations. We had back in the tape which I with with the SAT phone, which was like this huge clunky thing and a suitcase because you know, we had we had Sea THEMA phones at the time because you didn't have coverage everywhere.
So we had to I don't know what that means. What is c DMA.
Country something something. I don't know. They were the ones that you used in the in the country areas. So I'm showing my dinosaur age.
That's all right.
But basically the mobile phones didn't didn't have great service, so it was really difficult and of course if something happened, like you know, again, tiger and brown snakes quite prevalent in the river. Two are the most venomous.
In the river.
In the river, in the road, they swim.
They swim fucking the hell.
I know.
I know that's brightening, that's not that's more than frightening. So the brown snakes and tiger snakes, as you said, both venomous and both like kind of.
Deadly, very deadly, like in the top I think they're both in the top ten dead list in the world. Like that. You know, they buy you. You've got to get the anti vierneine.
So what was the the contingency with that? Did you did you like, what do you do if you see a snake?
So so again there was a bit of learning, because you know, I'd spoken to a lot of local people and tried to get some advice on what to do. And of course, not a lot of people get in the water. Some people say, just you know, just let them cross and stay out of their way and they'll go and do what they want to do, which is
fair enough, but when you're in a situation. So when I started my swim, I actually had to delay the start because the river had been in drought for five years and I actually thought that I might be walking parts of it. There was barely any water. But a couple of weeks before I was due to start, we had a tremendous downpour and the river was in flood. It was out of the banks. It was too dangerous.
The sees advised me that this emergency services advised me not to start my swim because it was too dangerous. So once the river subsided and it went back into its banks, I started my swim, but it was flowing. It was flowing at five kilometers an hour, so I swim sort of roughly four to five as well. I was traveling like not in ten k's an hour down this river like wow wow. Scary on a number of levels because there's a lot of trees that have fallen
into the river banks. So you know, one of the scary things is getting caught on snags and branches because obviously the clarity of it is not great. It's better at the top end, but it you know, just integrates as you head into South Australia. It's a it's a muddy river essentially, so you can't see your hand underneath you. So but at the beginning, you know, Actually, I think it was the second or the third day, I actually got trapped on a submerged branch and it caught me.
I got snagged on it. I was wearing a wet suit and I got snagged on it and it ripped to my wet suit. And the worst thing is that I had like a little inflatable boat beside me and IRB we call them, and it actually I was feeding. I was, you know, having my sustenance in the water as you do, and as I'm floating down, I got caught on this snag and then the boat came on top of me. Literally got pushed down Oh my god.
It happened so quickly, and I actually thought it was all over because I literally went under and the boat reversed and they managed to pull me off the branch. But I had brize back. I was I was the mess because it was like day two, day two, and then said a snake yet, But you know that was that was a good introduction of what can happen. So you're in this very volatile environment and you just have to be so aware and prepared. So lucky I had a great crew, as I said, you know, Royal Life
Saving crew. They were on top of it really fast, and you know, managed to get me out of the river. But you know, things happened. So yeah, scary situations. But I don't even remember the original question you asked me.
Now that's right, No, no, no, okay, So three and a half months out of your life. So did you beat the record? I'm thinking, yeah, you did the beat the record, right, I did.
I broke it by thirty five days.
Yeah, that's that's amazing. Yeah, And I know, I mean, I'm usually you don't do it for the money, or you didn't do it for the money, But did that get any sponsors? Did that get any did you get any dough through that or did you just kind of break even or or worse?
No, I did manage to break even, which was a success because most of the swims didn't even get enough to cover you know, the actual basic cost of it all. And that's with everybody volunteering their time, so you know, it's all run on a shoe string. So basically, you know, like I had people like Jaco donated the caravans to use for the swim, like miss and donated a couple of cars sort of thing.
You know.
So with all of that, I broke even at the end and no real huge, you know, life changing sponsorships at the end of it. But I guess really was that the speaking side that I went into. You know, people wanted me to come and speak, so that sort of, I guess opened up opened up an avenue to earn revenue, and that's where I moved into more than you know as a result of them, which again I didn't anticipate or really see coming, but it's something I really enjoy
and still do today. So yeah, so that's fairly lovely.
Am I imagining this? Or did you and I once do what's called a speaker's showcase for Saxton's speakers about twenty five years ago.
No, I'm pretty sure we did. I'm pretty sure we did.
I think. So what this is everyone is So this was this was fucking terrifying. Like my speaking career was just kind of stepping off. I was already doing bits and pieces of lecturing and little bits, and I'm going to be honest, I wasn't fucking great. Some would argue I'm still not, but but I remember I did actually okay on the day. I wasn't amazing, but I did okay. But I don't know if you remember this bit, Tam. But so this is what it was. Everyone. It's called
a speaker's showcase. And was it icmi L Saxton's.
I'm not quite sure.
It doesn't matter. Yeah, anyway, it was a speaking agency that we both were doing some workforce. So what they do is they get out, like event planners and people who put together conferences, conference organizers, a whole lot of people in a room and they sit them down and then they wheel us out like fucking international runway models, except I'm not wearing a frock. I've just got to
come out and I've got to do. I think it was like a fifteen to twenty minute presentation, might have been twenty yep, so a little bit of a snapshot of a keynote. Yes, like half a keynote. And so your job is literally and that by the way, they're not here. They're not there because they've heard of you, or they're interested in personal or professional development. Their reason for being there is solely to see if you're shit or good and whether or not they might want to
book you for an event. I don't know if you remember this bit, but everyone in the audience, and there was more than a few. There was quite a few people in the audience, and I think it was you and me and maybe four other speakers. There might have been six speakers on the day. Ye, but I'm pretty sure you did well. I'm not just saying that, but
I remember. So what they did was everyone had this kind of a remote control thing that they would push in our score and it would be stage presence, content, fucking you know, confidence, audience connection, whatever, like all these criteria that I can't remember, but essentially, you're standing on stage. I remember standing there talking and people in the audience looking at this what looked like a remote control pressing these buttons and they're scoring you in real time.
Crazy. If it's not terrifying enough just being up there on the stage, but seeing people disconnect from engaging with you and there's anything.
Oh, I'm like, can you fuck can do that at the end? Could you just wait? Exactly? And yeah? That was that was That was terrifying. But you know, that's what you do when you're trying to get get some traction.
Huh, exactly the things we do. We can look back and laugh about it now.
But my last question about the Murray River before we step on to a more recent challenge of yours, is, as you said, it's not that it's a dirty river per se, but it's a muddy river, right because at the bottom of it's all mud, and depending on rainfall and stuff, it gets churned up and blah blah blah bah. How much of like, surely there's a fair chance that you get an infection or you get sick or you you know, because you're swimming in you know, muddy water
for fuck and three and a half months. How did you deal with that when you went looking out for logs and snakes?
Yeah, that was very challenging as well, because there were a couple of times that I was very sick, like as in like vomiting diarrhea sick and trying to trying to get yourself motivated because part of the record was I had to swim a minimum of two hours every.
Day, right, all right, so no days off.
No days off.
I didn't realize that.
Yeah, consecutive swimming days. So that was part of the deal when you swim. So yeah, So there were some challenging times, and I did get a look. I got multiple ear infections. I had an eye infection. At one point I was in mil Durer, I remember, because my crew drove me. We were a bit we were past my Durer, but they came. We had I had some friends in mill Drawer. They came and met us at a point on the river and drove me back to see a specialist to have a look at my eye
and to clean out my ears. You know, they did the water syringe in my ears, and you should have seen what came out. Oh my god, really yeah, oh yeah, it was just so full of so anyway, but I could hear again after that, which was really good. I was because it's very It's very hard because you kind of weigh up should I put earplugs in? But then it takes away one of your senses. So like the balance here is like, so I'm attuned to the crew because I'm petrified that there could be a snake up ahead,
which is what we've had. We had a couple of times, so I want to hear, you know, them yell out to mistake or you know, blow the whistle or whatever. And if you take that away, it's you know, already you've lost all your senses because you're looking down into like this is brown water, so you can't say anything when you turn your head. So yeah, so it was that I wore earplugs sometimes but most times not because of that. I just wanted to know what was going on.
So so yeah, so you had to just deal with that. That was just part of the part of the journey. It was trying to find strength to keep going and yeah, and obviously, yeah, just deal with the situation at hand. It wasn't wasn't fun, it wasn't pretty. And yeah, my crew without my crew, like they literally you know, got me through.
Who's the Who's the goat of endurance swimming? Like who's the male or female, Like who's the who's that person that who's the flow jo of or the Michael Jordan of endurance swimming.
Well, I'd have to say Shelley Taylor Smith, like she was a pioneer as well. There's a few, so I would say Shelley because again she she very early on, she went in and beat a lot of men in the races on the circuit in Europe. Just was the first woman to do that. Like she's just incredible, like the force of nature. And one of my personal heroes is Gertrude Italy and she was the first woman to
swim the Channel. So she you know, she actually smashed the men's record by over two hours, and it was it was in the early nineteen hundreds that she did it, and basically, you know, women were considered like almost like second citizens. It was like, you know, the newspapers were writing headlines like no woman can swim the Channel, It's not possible.
You know.
So she was up against it like massively. She couldn't get finances to get over there, and so what she did was such a huge achievement just for setting a benchmark for women to get involved in sports. So once
she crossed the channel. So she was from New York and she she was a native of New Jersey actually, and so they did a ticker tape parade for her and it was massive worldwide, front page news, and apparently the influx of women that learn how to swim, that signed up for swimming lessons after that just was off the charts. Yeah. Yeah, And I was very fortunate because look, I really I didn't get a chance to meet her. She passed away before I got over to New York.
But I actually met her family. And she set a record for swimming from New York to New Jersey and it had been in the marathon swiming history books for like eighty years, this record that she'd set. And she did this prior and it was just before she went over to the Channel. She used this room as a bit of a woman. So I really wanted to go over and sort of emulate Gertrude do her swim and do it as a tribute to her. And so I met with all her nieces and nephews. We had a
big dinner together. They were all on my support boat, which is awesome. So I swam from New York to Sandy hooked in New Jersey and I broke her record. And then as I came up the beach, actually the mayor of Monmouth County in New Jersey came up with this certificate and said, I now proclaim July twenty first, from this day forward to be Tammy van Wis a day in Monmouth County, and all the schools will learn about your achievements in honor of this swim and Gertrue. Wow.
Wow, So yesterday.
Was Tammy van Wis the day in Monmouth County.
In New York. That's bloody amazing. How good is that?
I know, it's pretty cool her. I never thought I'd have a day named after me.
Wow, wow, I want to day. I'm jealous.
But that was, you know, like I said, and that was all just I just think that, you know, what Gertrude did was just absolutely incredible. Honestly, you know, you just can't putting yourself back in those times. I think, you know, we can talk about it, but you know, living in those times when you're you know, up again so much adversity just to get to the start line.
Yeah, So what we're going to do, everyone is we're going to pause here I'm going to call this the end of part one with Tam, and we're going to come back tomorrow and we're going to conclude the story because there's a lot more than swimming that's gone on, especially in recent times. We're going to unpack that. But for the moment, we'll call this the end of Part one. Love you, guts see tomorrow. Thanks Tam, thank you.