I'll get a team.
Welcome to another installment of the project. That's you, It's Jumbo, it's Fatty Harps, It's Craig Anthony, half of the kid from the Country.
It's Francis. Is it Patrick?
Michael Patrick Michael.
Francis Michael? Fuck? That's the most Catholic name ever. Francis Michael.
Peter Leech is one of those a what we Catholics called we all of a sudden, I'm a Catholic?
Is what? Really? It's one of those a confirmation.
Yes, Peter, you had to choose it.
I chose Peter because Peter, you know, it's sort of like these days it could be kind of cool because Peter was the rock of the church on which the church was got so I was kind of like the rock, as in, were.
You though.
I don't I don't know that you were the rock that Jesus built his church on.
But all right, yeah, well, so for the non Catholics, for the non Catholics that are like, what the fuck?
So when you're when you're about thirteen, you undergo this thing or you go through this, but what is it a ritual.
Process of right to fuck?
Some some Catholic kind of called a confirmation and you get to you get to choose the name, and you have a you have a name that goes on.
You know. So I'm Craig Anthony.
Mine was meant to be Mark, and he called me Paul, and I'm like, so I was confused. So anyway, he goes, I confirm you Craig Anthony Paul. I'm like, Champ, that's the wrong name. But I didn't obviously say that because I was fourteen year old in is c a fat kid or thirteen?
So I just went right.
Paul.
You had to.
It had to be like an Apostles name or a Saints dame. It couldn't just become Francis Michael, Dante Leech.
She couldn't go Francis Michael Muhammad or Leech.
You had yeah, oh yeah, yeah, Craig Anthony Shakira.
Yeah, much more popular if you could choose like a really hip name.
Oh I'll tell you what. There are a whole range of reasons. Let's not start on the Catholic Church. But it's just if anyone's got some fucking marketing and branding and pr work to do. Anyway, let's not open that door. How are you well, I know how you are. You're busy, are you all okay?
But you know, I think you and I are roll in the same boat at the moment without you know, let's talk about the thing that we've been talking about when we haven't been talking on here, and that is mortality and aging, and it's everywhere at the moment, Craig, I mean, you know, you know my love politics, and suddenly aging immortality has become not just a national conversation in United States, it's the global conversation.
As you watch Joe Biden right before our eyes, President Joe Biden, right before.
Hours deal with being an eighty one going an eighty teen year old man himself in real time on the world stage, coming to terms or in fact not coming to terms with the fact that age, despite all of his achievements and all of the things that he thinks
he can do, is wearing him down. And it just reminds us all the mortality comes to everyone, and you and I both dealing with that in our own lives with our parents at the moment, and it's the one road we might take as many different parts in life as we choose that everybody will have a different maleways for their life, you know, which you know, no matter how many things are similar and how many things we shared, the will always be a bit like our DNA or you know, there'll be a different road.
We've all got a.
Different road, but it all ends at the same spot. And that's a really confronting thing. And I think that's you know, the conversation around the Biden experience about him and what his capacity is. And basically they're saying every we're just falling short of the fact, well, he's going to die soon, so it can't be president.
No one's going to say that, right because mortality is to go. You can't say that.
But that's what the subtext is, and we're all dealing with it in real time, and the consequences are just you know.
Go Gainshawan.
It's such an interesting and really freaky scari.
And I mean, I'm fascinated from you know, because I'm fascinated with the brain and the mind, and I'm fascinated obviously with the body.
And we talk about this thing.
There's a newish term, not that new, but last five years it's gained some legs called health span.
Francis, have you heard of that?
I also get what you're saying, which is it's rather lifespan.
It's the quality of your life while you're alive, because you can live and will you both have seen this too.
You can live a long life. But it doesn't mean you're living in a cognizant life, or an active life, or an enriched life, or an inner life where you're experiencing the world. You're just a set of lungs and a heart.
And you know, it's a fair question to discuss around what is the value of that, Where is the agency and that what is the sort of ethics of maintaining people that way? I guess the voluntary system dying legislation which is available in the different parts of the world at the moment, and in saying Victoria, in Australia it's available, and I'm sure it's available elsewhere as well, around the
country and internationally. You know, it challenges those old precepts of the established church and other religious and monochy philosophies around the sanctity of life, you know, you know, being an absolute when we are now asking well, is life lived that way really a life with dignity?
And if it's not a life with dignity, what is it? And it's a big question to ask.
Yeah, there are so many things that come up for me. And you know, my mum and dad are eighty five and your dad.
Is in his eight ays is he? Yeah?
And I mean, you know, there's there's so many things that kind of intersect, you know, the psychology and the brain stuff and the general wellness and the immune system and the ability to be able to get in and out of a chair and and and all of the practical things. You know, I've been talking to my mum this afternoon and God bless us, she's fine. There's no
neither she or Dad have dementia per se. But you know that there's some cognitive decline which is pretty much inevitable with everyone from fifty, depending on a few things. But we know that we can stave that off with you know, training our brain for want of a better term, But there's always going to be a level of just like physiological decline, cognitive decline, psychological decline perhaps.
But you know, my mum is I've been talking to her this afternoon.
She's got these bills that have come in and you know it's now at the point where she can't go and you know, pay bills with a check anymore, you know, cash is pretty much irrelevant and redundant.
And she was talking to me about and that these are not you.
Know, they're just power and insurance and red Joe and all of these things. And she's so stressed about it. And I, in the end, I wasn't going to see them this weekend because got stuff to do. And in the end, and we're recording this Friday, two thirty and I just rang Mom and I said, I'm going to come down tomorrow. I'll be there at midday and we're geting to go through everything.
We're going to figure out how to.
How to make everything electronically linked to me and Melissa will fix it all for you, Melissa who runs my life, of course. And so just to take that responsibility of paying bills off her out of her hands so she doesn't she's so stressed about everything. She's got a new phone and they keep sending her notification. She doesn't know what to do. I'm like, Mum, you don't have to
do anything. Oh, but why are they sending them? I'm like, oh my god, you know, And and I look at Joe Biden and I think, you know, one of the things that really creates cognitive problems is or sleep. Well, he can't be sleeping that well, right and pressure, stress,
and anxiety are all cognitive inhibitors. Right now, imagine the pressure that he is under apart from the fact that he's eighty one or two, and you know, God bless him, but clearly on the slide, like that's not arguable anymore, but you chuck on top of that again, arguably the most powerful position in the world with the most pressure. I mean, I don't know how he even gets out of bed at the moment.
Yeah, And of course there's sort of the Greek tragedy element of this is, you know, we're getting too deep in the political weeds. Here is his inability to recognize that and step away from the campaign and allow someone younger to do it.
It's almost Shakespearean and it's tragedy.
Someone who's commuted, has done so much work in public service, his entire life, has suffered so much personal tragedy from the death of his wife and his daughter and the death of his elderson from cancer and just kept going and just you know, I think most people across the past and divide in the United States. Despite all the rectoric that you hear, most sensible people acknowledge he's been
an incredible public sermon who has done great things. But he's at this very moment, because of his inability to come to terms with his own mortality and his own decline, is in danger of undoing his legacy, which is just tragic. It is the sort of stuff of a Greek tragedy. So it's happening in front of our eyes, but it does remind us about our own challenge to come to terms with our.
You could call it decline, but I would.
Like to say the changes that we face that we can't avoid, the changes that are that are inevitable in lots of ways, that might be seen as decline, but it's just it's confronting, Craig, and you and I both had sort of dealing with parents who are diminished physically and mentally, and it's you know, part of you wonder as well, both of you.
Both you and I and a lot of people who.
Listen to this podcast spend a lot of time thinking and working hard at being our best version of ourselves now. But you can't bank it. It's not like you go, well, I did it for ten years, kind of a year off. We can I have four years at the end of perfect cognition because you know, like long service leave, I've done.
Twenty years of eating.
Well and exercise, So there's a getting an extra five years of being at the top of my game. And it doesn't work like that, does it? Or does it great? I mean, give me, give me some hope.
That it's been that we're investing in. I mean, it's a geriatric future that is a little sharper than what we're experiencing with our own well.
I mean, there's an inevitability of decline. Of course, nobody lives forever. Nobody has optimal cognitive function forever, nobody can bench press their house forever. We get all of that, and so there's what we know is there's an inevitability of chronological aging day after day, of course. But what's not what's what isn't a constant is the way that we age. So there's the variability of and I mean, of course we're all going to die at some stage, and of course we're all going to end up in
a diseased or a dysfunctional state eventually. And that's where that term health span comes in is you know, so what we want to do is we want to be you know, really we want to be atypical in that we want to be as strong and functional and healthy and cognitively kind of good as we can for as
long as we can. And so we know that, you know, sleep and exercise and quality and nutrition and minimal stress and being challenged and working against resistance in an intelligent way, and all of those things can help us stay somewhere near optimal for our potential. But it's you know, there's still that which you and I spoke about briefly this morning,
is that's all good? And I think you and I for our ages are probably going okay, maybe slightly better than average hopefully, but there's going to come a time where we're not. And you go, well, so what do I do between now and then? And I think between now and then, that's the health span bit, is you know, it's like you were alluding to, living ninety years is good, but not if the last fifteen years are fucking horrible, you know what to do about that?
And with that is the conundrum.
The other part of it is also just the fragility of living well it is, you know, being able to sort of have those moments of realizing the realization occasion where you go, look, I'm feeling good physically. No, my joints don't feel sore. I don't have a muscle injury. I'm walking okay, my back's not sore. I'm not finding it difficult to sit down or stand up or walk. When we're younger, we take that for granted, but I
don't know what you're like. But I now have those moments of the city were go, wow, this is I'm really aware of that at the moment, because it's not always going to be the way. And when you do get sicked and you are incapacitated, and whether it's you know, I guess many of us experienced in the last five or six years with the COVID nineteen and you know, it can really stricken you really quickly.
And he went from feeling I.
Remember the first time I caught her, I was just being finished on a long run and it was feeling really good and came home. I drove home from the A River troil, I was exercising, and by the time I got home, I'm going to know.
That the end or from rush after just having a good hour and a half role feeling great right, and by the time there's just that instinct something ain't right.
And by the time I got upstairs, I was a million miles away.
From from feeling it good.
And so you get are you're really sick really quickly and you lose that zest and yeah, and it's really quite frightening.
It's like a window on a world that, as you said, is inevitable for all of us. And I wanted you know, it's all that sort of philosophy around the ability to cope with sickness or to endure, or to you know, to be able to sort of learn more of yourself about yourself and how you deal with illness and relate to your body. Fascinated all that stuff around that because there is that attitude towards sickness. I guess it's saying
with cancer. When someone has cancer, we lionize the idea that you're fighting, right, so you're going to have you're a batler, you're fighting. You've got cancer. And cancers obviously are multi multi hued, you know, tapestry of misery, no doubt about that. But there are some cancers that you can't fight, right, But you get diagnosed with.
And you know your life is going to be cut short.
But you know because of the pressure that there's a virtue in fighting illness.
You people go through really difficult treatments and chemotherapy and other treatments that make them sick in the process, and they might eke out a short a bit longer life span, but not quality of life. But if you were to say, actually, I know I'm going to die, there's no way I can be cured. I would rather just live my life and go through the palative process when it happens, but I'm not going to undertake treatment.
I think our culture would judge you as somebody who wasn't a fighter, that you weren't prepared to fight the disease that you know, by being a fighter using the frame using the word fight or battling cancer, you know, it.
Does suggest that if you don't, then you're a coward. I mean, that's the other side of being a fighter's count, right.
So I think it's really fascinating people come that do come to terms with their illness and go okay, philosophically, I know this is going to be horrible, but I've come to a point where I'm at peace or I found a certain state of grace in dealing with the fact that I would rather die with this way than put myself through a treatment to prove a point, or to eke out another month or two and be sick the entire time.
You know, it's a really interesting way. Do we have to come to terms with our own mortality?
Yeah, and I think that you're talking about voluntary assisted dying before. So We've had a friend of mine who I actually went to UNI with, who did exercise science, then went and did nursing and then a bunch of other stuff after that.
Her name's Nicki Morrison. Shout out to Nikki. She's a straight up angel.
She she works with people, so she's a death duel of Francis. So when people want to take that path of assist dying, she facilitates that with them in the home. And it's like I think for some people who when like you said, there is medically no chance of you know, that they are going to recover, just to be able to say, all right, well I'm going to die, I'd rather die on my terms. I'd rather die. I don't want to die in agony. I don't want to die
in being humiliated and have someone wipe my ass. And I don't want that. I don't want that. I don't want to be you know. And not that everyone would be embarrassed or neither should they be necessarily, but for some people, you know, I think to be able to make that decision about you know, for some people and certain specific medical circumstances, I understand that, and.
I I, yeah, I don't I don't know that I would say no to that.
You know, in my own my only thing would be my very religious upbringing, which.
Tells me you can't do that.
But you know, that whole eternal lake of fire thing, Francis, that's somewhat of a deterrent.
It is, it is you know, yeah, that's hard white into a lot of people cray. And it's the reason why you know, we still have this discussion around it, around a system dying and the dignity of sacred, sacred nature of life. I still I still wristle with the tea because as a philosophical.
Position around that, if we make those sorts of decisions culturally relative, so you know, we can start if it's not an absolute or empirical idea that all life is stacred or you know, the sancting of life is universal. Then we can start to peel off different areas and in different times, in under different cultural circumstances, political circumstances, we make allowances that we would not have even considered
in the past. And so I understand that the cultural relativity argument around well when do we start choosing or how do we make a value judgment about what is dignified living or what is a life worth living? And
that becomes a subjective conversation. And you know, you know, if people are the chronically depressed and they don't feel like living anymore, does that then become an issue around the quality of life and should they then allow it to be have access to assistant eye And that's when you get to these culturally relative positions about the value of human life and who's making those rules, who's making that judgment?
It's it isn't you know?
I know that we're living a world of binary opinions where you're either.
For or aget it.
I think it's a really difficult situation, a difficult issue that does impose a lot of serious ethical and moral questions that aren't easily answered. I mean, there are cases and as you said, where people are so physically stricten or that is there can be no argument about it. But at the same time, when you start to add that element of about dignity and quality of life, that means different things different.
People, And don't you think it's interesting that we do live in this very kind of You've got to have a yes or no, Like how about fuck? I don't know, Like I don't like it's okay, you know, it's like, why do I have to be in one or the other camp? Here's an idea. I'm human and I'm unsure. I don't want to Like, there's also that option I feel it's it's ridiculous that people feel compelled to pressure or leave people in Well, here are your two options.
Which of these is? How about listen, Brian? How about neither I need more information or more time or I just you know, I just don't know. As somebody who is in his fifties and you've got a dad who's not super well at the moment, how are you going with that?
Like?
Has this been I don't know, has this been a shock? Has this been has it effected perspective in any way.
That's interesting. My dad's been sick for a very long time. You know.
He retired at the age of forty after a workplace accident and has been with basically both my parents have basically been dealing with a healthcare system for a better part of thirty forty years. And to that end, I'm so glad that they live in Australia where their access is working past people to high quality healthcare is second to none, and that they're looked after with dignity and with great care and with an expertise out on the par with anywhere else in the where we really are
truly fully blessed. So that aside that illness or battling the illness and sickness has always been part.
Of my life, or dealing with my parents' illness, that's just what we've always done. But as he gets closer to the end, I spend a lot more time with you because I and this is one of the things I would encourage people to do if they're dealing with the situation that you and I are, and that you and I think are both chosing this part. It's easy to sort of, I think, not easy to write words.
It's tempting to sort of try to pass your way through it and go, look, i'll do a little bit here, I'll do a little bit there, and I hope someone else can get up there, or you know, I'll try to cut corners around looking at my parents or hope one of my siblings picks it up, you know, because it's confronting, right, It's time consuming, and you spend a lot of time sitting around hospital wars or waiting for appointments and around other sick people, and traveling to and
from appointments in cars, and you know, it's a grind. It's a grind, right, It's hard work. But I'm glad that at a certain point when I was trying to do it in a way that was, you know, collaborative with other people, I just thought, this is too hard, and I'm going to regret not just buying him totally.
It is.
So My siblings are great, and we all work together on it, but I just look, as much as I can. I will take him to his medical appointments, just out of when not making a call.
Are you free? Are you free? You know? Because that gets exhausting of itself. If I can't, and there be times I can't because I have a job that takes me all over the place. We'll know in in vance and we'll work it out.
But if i'm if i'm here, or if I can make time, I'll do it. And that's just taken a lot of stress out.
And it's also meant that I spent a lot of time with him, and you know, you get to know him a lot better. You know, he's got the vascular he's got that beast the dimension, which is a version of the disease which affects his short term memory, but his long term memory is quite vivid. And so he's been telling me stories.
About his young life and his childhood and growing up that he never shared with me before, which I've recalled. I've recorded some of those just on my phone, just conversations, so that I've got those to keep, and.
That's been really important.
It's given me another tour understanding of who he is and the challenges he faced as he as a kid, you know, growing up basically kicked out at home at the age of twelve and living with friends and just living on his wits most of his life.
But then there's another moments that just just good fun. Like we sit together day we were waiting for his doctor and dragged on and on and on. So I just get out my phone now and go on Instagram and find my favorite comedy clips and we just sit there, you clicking through instag comedy stand up thirty forty second bits of people say hey, Dad, look at this, just pissing ourselves laughing, and it's just a lot of fun.
We we're idiots in the in the hospital waiting room. I don't know because there's noise and everything going. I said, I just put it on and go. I look at his day and he's having a great old bally laughing. I think, well, this is fun, I mean, be of a shit.
Situation by laughing at a bit of day that on comedy or some old you know, really.
Speaking of Catholics.
I you know, it's funny, like yesterday or this week's been really busy for me, you know, just lots of work and lots of stuff, and today fair bit on. And I got on the phone with mom before as I was telling you, and like she's a bit stressed about some stuff. And then the more we talked, like it was clear that she was really stressed. And then it's funny how when you know, like with me, there's no wife, there's no grandkids to support, there's no of course,
and I'm fine with all that. There's no siblings, and so it's all pretty much me, which is fine. But then you get to the point where you're like, oh, so this conversation I'm in right now with my mum, this is more important than all the other things I've got to do today, Like this is what needs to
have my energy and my attention and my focus. And then, as I was saying before, Mama is so worried about bills, not that they don't have the dough to pay them, but she doesn't have the skills, right, And I just said, you know, all right, I'll come up tomorrow.
We'll just come up tomorrow and we'll sort it all out.
And it's funny how when things are going for me, when things are going shit with my mum and dad, it's like all the other problems aren't problems absolutely, you know, It's like it just gives me a level of clarity and perspective about what actually matters. Because for me anyway, because I don't have a wife and kids, so I guess they're the most important people in the world to me.
And and I don't know if people feel this, but I feel like it's almost like now I'm the dad, yes, and I feel like I am responsible and if I'm not responsible, no one will be. And it's just I'm not at the point where I'm making decisions for them, but I'm thinking, Okay, I think we need to talk about this thing now, and they will never bring it up.
You know.
It's like they live in this big old house in Latrobe Valley on a big old black land with fucking way too much stuff and way too much space. I'm like, you two dither around about the twenty square feet and the rest of the mansion is fucking gathering us, right, But it's.
Oh no, no, no, no, I'm like, but it's so hard because you know what that is as well, and I'm you know, doing this at the moment with my dad going into care is it's a.
Massive change for them, and that's a that's a signifier of their own, you know, their own journey that they're getting to a point where you know, they're in the twilight of the years.
So it's pretty confronting. But I know what you mean.
It's also you're just not in a position to maintain this place anymore, Like you know, it's just too big and it's but demands too much of you. So yeah, that's really hard. I do have power of attorney with dad, so I do have to make some of those decisions. But I'm pretty clear headed about that. And the other thing I would say to people who are when your time comes.
To deal with this is get on top of that really quickly. Talk to your parents, talking siblings.
You know, my siblings and I have a really solid and great relationship when it comes to dealing with these issues. And I'm really really lucky, really really lucky to have four siblings that we all get it and we all support each other and despite all the different things are going on our own lives. Because not everybody has that right. And if you do have issues with siblings that I've seen, it hurd a lot or other people in your family who don't understand, you know, what's.
Going on, or they've got their own hurt and their.
Own feelings that they haven't really dealt with, and it starts to manifest itself around the situation with the parents.
Oh, it could be help, it could be hell so. And that's where those flash points become really important, where you haven't.
Established who has power of attorney in a situation like that, and you're trying to have a collegiate conversation with your brothers and sisters or an uncle or an auntie, and nobody has the ultimate deciding power to decide because you haven't done your power of attorney, and it just gets messy. So I implore you, if you're going to go and involved in a caring role for an aging parent who's at some stage is going to need someone to make
decisions for them, have that conversation now. Get it out of the way, because there'll come a time when you're going to need it. And that's one of the things I've learned is I guess the theme of this is that we're embracing the aging and I guess mortality in a way.
We're going to run.
We're going to run towards it when we see it when we need to help people, because there's no getting away from it and the only way through is through, and to do it well, to do it well for both the person who you might be caring for nursing and for yourself. You have to embrace it. You have to embrace it and take it on as painful and as confronting as it is.
As somebody who never has to kind of navigate or negotiate the sibling thing, right, and who's going to do this? And that's not something I have to contend with or have the pleasure or the whatever. I don't know what the right term is, but I've had, as you kind of alluded to, lots of conversations with friends who've gone that with parents and the money grabbing sick who is like, all about the dough. I'm like, what, oh, yeah, it's all about I'm like, oh my god, like that that
just it just repulses me so much. But I get that it happens. But the idea that you know, dad's on his way out or mum's on her way out or whatever, and the kids are fighting over the money rather than loving the mum and dad, and just like it never I mean, well, I never really thought about it till I started hearing about it, and I hear about it quite a lot.
It is one of the great revealers of human character is dealing with mortality's people who find that their brother and sister. And you know, I've heard this twice in the last three or four years from people that I know who had found out that their older brother or sister has been nursing a greed for many years and expects it. You know, I've always done a certain thing in relation to the parents' situation and the estate that they never dreamed possible because they feel entitled to a
certain situation being settled in their favor. It's it reveals character about greed and you know, the desperation to want things. But also I guess in some ways, you know, people carry a lot of hurt around and it manifests in this way. When a parent dies. It's it is quite it's quite horrifying. And that's why it's good to try to have these conversations early and make sure that everyone understands where they're at. And sometimes it's good not to
have a lot to worry about. By my parents, there's no fighting over much.
Yeah, yeah, I'm not getting rich off Mary at any stage, So God God blessed that little But you know, about well, I did hear recently of somebody that I know quite well well and there's a member in their family one of the children who is who was basically on dad's deathbed trying to get him to change the will.
Like what kind of fucking human does that?
Oh wow, you know.
Like pleading his case.
But you know this also it comes back to what we were talking about earlier too, which is.
About the efficacy and that the integrity of the right to assist to dying because one of the other issues that.
Is very permanent in this is elder elderly abuse and financial abuse older people. So if someone gets if someone is sick or incapacitated and their person who has the power of attorney.
Decides, maybe against the wishes of the people they have at their power at because they have a financial need or they've got an impulse to acquire something quickly, that they go down. If we were to say, well, that person, they wouldn't have the right to go down.
It's just the dying route at some point. If things change at the moment, it's a lot more stringent around that, and the person who would be subject to it's just the dying has to go through some very rigorous processes before they are put on that program. But you know, once again, everything's relative and cultural relativity might mean at some point he's just going, well, this person's in.
A bed and you know, it's not not really engaged in the world, and you're the you're the power of attorney. You have the right to turn off the machine, you know, and that that.
That happens all the time.
That's sort of not the spousal abuse or financial abuse of older people exploring older people because of their financial circumstances.
You know, that's a real issue. It just it's sometimes events like this can bring out the very best in us in the way we handle these situations, but it can also bring out the very worst.
At the moment.
I my thinking around my mom and dad is I want to within reason, I want to see them as much as I can, and because there's going to be a time where I'm going to wish they are around to annoy.
Me, you know what I mean, you'll hear their voices in your head.
Yeah, that'll be there forever. But yeah, I just think, you know, I know it sounds cliche, but just to just to be able to spend time with them while they're still here and you know, all that kind of stuff. So I guess I'm a little bit philosophical around that.
But it also you know, there's a real practical component to how do I help them manage whatever it is the last one two five ten years of their existence, because you know there's apart from all the medical stuff and all the psychological and emotional and sociological stuff, there's still there's all the practical things that need to be navigated, which is it gets quite messy, you.
Know it does. But as we said, there's no other way through them through it, so onwards we go to it we do.
Indeed, now are you heading off? You're heading off to see your dad after this?
Am I life to the old fella, listen to his bad dad jokes, which you know, concert with those still, so.
You're going to one day you're going to miss them, mate, So you just celebrate them while they're still coming out, while they're still coming out.
You too, mate, I appreciate you. I hope things all right with you.
Will say goodbye affair, but for the moment, Francis Michael Kevin Patrick, John O.
Yeah, Dante's Shakira, thanks for having a