I ad to welcome to another installing the you projectors harps. Who else wouldn't be Tiffany and Cook. I don't know where she is. I think she's in the hammock. I think she's in the corporate hammock. She could be by the pool, she could be in the jacuzzi. Who knows where. But she'll be editing this later, but joining me. Who has actually showed up, which is nice, unlike tiff as doctor Rob Bell.
Good ay, doc, how are you?
Oh that's great man, appreciate you having me on. But we'll look forward to it.
Yeah, me too. I've been excited. I read about you and I went it's like a brother from another mother. It's like you're just where kindred spirits, I think, can you so for my audience who don't know you, can you just give us a little bit of a snapshot.
Of the the Rob Bell story?
Wow, snapshot of the story?
Take as long as you want, long as you want. Started in the seventies.
In the back of a car.
Yeah.
Sports psychology coach man so I I work with athletes, coaches and teams on mental toughness and YEP. Written seven books, eight books on mental toughness. One of them is an e book, but you wrote seven You're smarter than I am, Man.
So definitely not, definitely not.
I love alterna durance sports man, I love iron Man's and one hundred milers. Family, which is probably the most important part. Man and Mary. We've got two kids of daughters fifteen and son is thirteen, and Man, I just love doing what I do, and that's just helping athletes get to where they want to go. Point. I love about sports so much, mate, It's just there's no ambiguity when it comes to sports, and that's the part that I love the most. Right. It's like in life there's
a lot of ambiguity. Who knows if that raise helps or who know if that's a good job. But like with sports, you just know you make the shot or you miss the shot, right, you swim the time or you don't swim the time. That's it always drew me to sports, and I've always just been passionate about helping people on when you know, when they're naked in front of the gods out there.
Yeah, when did you when you were growing up, were you an athlete?
Were you into sports?
I was, man, Yeah, soccer and uh and baseball, Yeah, those are my favorites. Man, That's what I so I exceled at and then and then got into partying.
Uh.
You know when I was a teenage professional professional pathage Oh man, if it was a class, I was an A plus student on that. Any extra credit I'm in. But it led to the downfall. Man. That's when I got to college and just had a couple of hinge moments that took place, and then I got into the psychology field.
I see you use that term hinge moment. I haven't really heard it, and I've read a bit of your stuff. What's is that? Is that a light bulb moment, an epiphany, an aha moment?
Or is that something different?
Well, when you hear about doors opening and closing in life, that's because of the hinge. Yeah. Yeah, So a door, a door without a hinge as a wall, it just doesn't work. And if you ever ever a rusty if you ever have a rusty door, it's not the door that's rusty at all. It's the hinge that gets rusty. And so when we go through doors in life, what the hinge is It's that one moment, that one person or one event that makes all the difference in our lives.
It connects who we are with who we're going to become. But we just don't know when that's coming. And that's the that's the real importance of the Metal game is you have to be ready for those moments. And sometimes we might not know what happens to weeks, months, years later, but it could be a coach that we had in our lives, that one person has said, hey, you can do this, you know, or or that that one shot that we just said, you know what, screw it, man, I'm going to go for it. And you know, it
connected who we are with who we became. And now the beauty about it. And this is why use these hinge moments because no matter how bad your situation is, no matter how bleak an outcome looks, it only takes one And that's what we kind of get away from, right. Hey, it takes one client turn everything around, one person to turn everything around your life. That's what we're getting ready for.
But so if I go through life saying, hey, this this person really doesn't matter, this interaction really doesn't matter, then the hinde will not connect guarantee it. Yeah, it also it also goes the other way too. It's just that tragedies that happen in our lives, there are immediate hinges because from that moment on Craig, everything's different. Like death of a loved one, cancer, a significant injury, they're
immediate hinges. Everything's different after that. But that's that's why I use the hinge moments.
A friend of mine who's been on the show a bunch, his name's Joel. He was he was in the military.
He was I'm from Afghanistan on leave, went to a party, fell out of a balcony, broke his neck. It's now quadriplegic, you know. And as I often cited people when I'm talking about Joel, you know, he can't wake up tomorrow and say, you know what, fuck it, I'm not going to do quadriplegia anymore. I'm just going to walk around. I'm too I can't be bothered dealing with this, right. So things happen, as you said, you know, catastrophes and terrible moments in our life where we don't have a choice.
Now we have.
This is real, This is a new reality, right. But I feel like with a lot of you know, Rob, if you or I do a gig, we're in front of a group of people.
I do a lot of speaking.
And if I say to people, put up your hand if you want to be fitter, lean, a lighter, stronger, you know, more effective, more empowered, more resilient, all the hands go up. So there's one thing to want that, there's one thing to want change or want to be a higher performer, whatever that means in sport or out of sport. But then it's another thing to be willing to step into the uncertainty, the unknown, the discomfort, the pain,
the fucking terror. Right, Like, we love the idea of high performance and success and optimal health, but we don't, like a lot of us, don't want to do the work right.
M it is, man, And that's where I think You've got to go through life knowing that you got one shot, you know, I mean, you don't go around more than once, right, So you have to seize the nectar and get after it. Because that's I just basically like you know, and there's there's opposite then too, right, But it's like you can't go through life afraid because that just sucks, and that means you're living on the sidelines of life, and nothing
good can happen in it. But that's where the critic lives, right, they live up in the bleachers, not willing to sign up for that race or whatever it is that scares you. But that's where the fun stuff is. Man, That's why I look at it. That's why I think man in the arena is so powerful because the critic doesn't count. It's that who is willing to go out there and for the glory or the pain of defeat and knowing that,
hey man, that's just living. And that's why I always look at and that's how I look at life too, because it is so short and you have to seize those moments. Man's that's all we got is that lifetime. And that's where again it can go to the opposite that way, right, you can say fuck it and just you know, kill yourself, but like you have to be willing to go for it. Man, that's where the real success gets made.
Do you think that that drives that drive rob you know, that willingness to do the work, That hunger, whatever, resilience, you know, whatever we want to call it.
That is that inherent? Is that in built? Is that in my dna? Is that genetic or is that something that is maybe a byproduct of where I've been and what I've seen and who I've been around.
I think it is caught more than it's taught. And what I mean by that is that's where I spend my life as trying to teach that. But I think it's going through experiences in life that in the environment that we are going to be and that has such a huge factor to it. Right now, with that said, the bottom line is is no matter your circumstance, no matter what matters more is the vision. And what I have seen is I have yet to meet anybody Craig. Yeah, that wasn't told. That's a bad idea. Don't try it.
You're not going to be successful. Forget it, man, Yeah, not you. And so everybody who has been uber successful in life, they were all had that moment. They all had that And that's why I call them like lightning strikes, because it's the most powerful force that is. It might be somebody close to you, might have been that coach, might have been that teacher, that teacher said, now you're going end up just like your brother. Every one of them who has reached that level of success was told that,
either by the circumstance or by somebody else. So why is that that those moments helped propel them now at the same time it has crushed many more people. Yes, And so it's just that's the part where like, look, these moments are going to have significant factors that and repercussions and consequences. And it's our job again to be in the moment to live life to its absolute fullest, but it's our job to make sure that I think those that are around us are equipped with those skills.
So knowing that those moments are going to happen, and that's just how I look at them. Man, no one who has ever been successful wasn't told that, you know. And I think it goes beyond proving people wrong. I think it's a fish or cut bait moment. And what I mean by that is, you can't be on the fence in life when you're told you're not going to make it. You're either going to agree with that voice that tells you you're not going to make it, or
you're going to agree with yourself. And that's then the importance to about coaches, because usually when people are told that they had just one person to come alongside them and say, you don't need to listen to that coach man, you can do this. Yeah, and it made all the difference in their lives. And that's the part that I knew to be true when it comes to that, you know, nature nurture sort of thing. But I believe it's caught more than it's tight. So I kind of hang on that one.
When I was growing up, rob I was a not a good academic, not a good athlete, not genetically gifted, you know, captain mediocrity. And you know, for me to be to me, to excel at anything just meant like literally just doing probably more work than most people around me, you know, because I didn't have great genetics all that stuff. I was a morbidly obs kid. I was, I guess the equivalent in pounds two hundred two and ten pounds
when I was fourteen, you know, all this stuff. And I had a few hinge moments as you call them, and and and out of one of those hinge moments, you know, I just had this light bulb where essentially I went, this is very simplified. But I don't want to be like how I am. I don't want to be this way anymore. And I radically change my behavior, which then in turn changed my thinking. I get it, it's a two way kind of street. But I got in shape, I got fit, I got relatively strong and healthy.
And for somebody without great genetics, I kind of tried to figure out somewhat how to optimize them. But for me, changing my body was great. But what it really opened the door on for me was understanding my own potential for not for greatness, but my version of greatness.
You know.
It's like, you know, my nine out of ten, what's nine out of ten for me might be a four for you because maybe you're more gifted, right, But I think there's that like going through that. For me, I lost the equivalent of about seventy pounds and got to a weight that was about the right weight for my then size and age and all of that, you know.
But and the weight loss was cool, and the fitness was great, and the transformation was great, but it was really the like the mental, emotional and social ramifications that like I went, oh, fuck, if I can do this, what else can I do? I think it's that that, you know, it's almost like that that that shift in mindset is really just a byproduct of stepping into doing hard shits.
Sometimes, absolutely, man, And that's the best part of it, right, stepping into the next That's what I love. I love that, man. I mean that fires me up because I think it's it's so true, it's been that becomes like the most important mental skill is just the confidence and belief. And oh man, now I do have a vision. Yes, it's powerful, man, really powerful. That's why I think confidence belief it's the most important metal skill.
And I guess like for me, I didn't set out to do that. I just set out to not look as terrible as I looked like. I was just an auto in year old, fat, insecure kid who didn't want to be socially invisible, right. I just wanted some girl to go, well, he's not hideous. That would have been a good yeah, you know, I wanted to be not picked last for a team. Like these were not lofty goals, right.
But but it's in the doing of that where you know, you go, ah, it's like I started to pull back a curtain on my self awareness and self understanding, you know, where I didn't obviously articulate it.
Like that when I was fourteen.
But you know, getting in shape was good, But what was more exciting and more empowering was starting to have a window into my own potential, you know, And I think helping people like I love helping people open the door, pull back the curtain, whatever metaphor we want to use, but on their own potential, power and possibilities.
You know, I mean, how can I add to that? Brother? I just want to listen to you share the story. Man, that's good. I mean, it's when here's here's what I look at it though. Here's what I look at it is like the difference that you make now in p was lives Craigs, knowing like where you were then and how many people that you have helped throughout life. Like, that's the real power of it, you know what I mean? If you didn't make that decision, man, do you know
how many people's lives would be different today? Yeah, because now you said, well, you know, hey, I guess this is how it is. No, Man, you made that choice and you impacted how many thousands of lives because of when they go home and they reckon you know, realize, man, they still had your voice in their head when they went home.
That night.
Yeah your voice saying yeah, you are awesome. Man.
It's funny like with people that thank you. I appreciate that the people that I work with. So a bit more backstory for you. So I set up the first personal training censor in Australia. So in nineteen ninety personal training was an industry. There was there was no course, there was no qualification, there was no insurance, there was no regulation. I started doing in maybe eighty five eighty six in commercial gyms and then set up my own center when I was twenty six and I had no
fucking idea what I was doing. But another one of those hinge moments where you go shit, Like I knew that I didn't want to have a boss a job. I wanted to work, but I didn't want a job right and I'm like, well, how the fuck can I work for me? Make money?
Do shit?
I'm passionate about connect with human being, keep my own evolution happening, but not show up every day for a job which didn't appeal to me. But you know what was like the biggest I'll shut up after this because this is not about me, this podcast. I apologize, But
what was the biggest learning curve. For me, rob was like being in front of all of these humans like you think about as a trainer or a coach or a mental like everyone that you work with wants to be better, Like nobody comes to you because they want to stay how they are now better shows up as a lot of different things physically, mentally, emotionally, skill you know, strength, power, speed, fucking whatever, you know, resilience, And it's like for me,
that was the classroom, you know, more than university for me being in front of all those different humans with different drivers and different personalities and different pain thresholds and different perceptions and different stories. You know, what about for you like that experience? I know you worked with a lot of athletes. What came out of that for you?
Same thing?
Man?
I mean I always say everyone that we meet we can learn something from. And everyone on this earth one way or another is you know, when the student's ready to teacher will appear. Right. We're all doctors and we're all and we're all patients. Yeah, you know, it's just like who were interact with. But we I always learn more from those that I interact with and that I
help then I think they do from me. From my standpoint, you know, whether whether it's a know how they approach something, especially working like with the really elite ones, they all just have something that's a little bit different, and it's like looking deep into that and saying, what what is it that you have that's untouchable? Right, It's like if you were to go deep in their soul, there's like this lamp or something right with like you just can't
touch it. Like everyone I just think, like just has that.
Hopefully that metaaforre made sense. I'm trying to think of like a laddiner, right, it was like yeah, so, you know, And whether that is just somebody's ultimate belief in themselves, whether it's their ability to outwork somebody else, whether it is their ability to focus under pressure and want to be in those situations, whether it's somebody's uh skill of letting god mistakes and moving on, whether it's somebody's ability to just see a painting, you know, and to be
able to go and do it. You know, if if it's somebody to be able to connect with somebody else, everyone has that, I totally believe it, you know, And I've just been blessed enough to work with so many and just try and discover what is their their essence and how are they able to go about it? And that's the key is you just got to be working on then your strength all the time. And I think that's what the the purpose is man, and then you take that strength and how is it going to be
able to help others? Because that's where the real joy is. That's that's why I look at them, and the real joy is from helping others reach their goal. It's like you you reach yours whatever it is, that's a mountaintop moment. You're going to come back that off that mountaintop and it's like, okay, well we're what now what's next? No matter what it is, right, million dollars, man, Olympic gold metal, it's and it's always getting back to men. It's then how do I use this to be able to help
somebody else? That's where the real joy comes from.
Tell me about the dynamic rub between, Like when you're working.
With somebody and you want to help them, among other things, build you know, resilience and mental toughness and adaptability and flexibility and all that fucking awesome stuff to be able to perform on the pressure.
But at the same time, you don't want to be a prick.
You don't want to do you know what I'm saying, It's like, yeah, we want to be understanding and where and compassionate and empathetic, but also get the fuck up and stop being a pussy. Like what's that juxtaposition? Like how do you how do you navigate that? I?
Sometimes I do it, well, sometimes I don't because you have to kind of coach like that. But yeah, it's not my natural style. I don't like always doing that right. I might because I don't want it more than them, because I would get wrapped up in it. Man, you know, I mean if it's so, I look at it in terms of you have to know that what we're going to build first is based on love. That is based on love and the same thing we are working together
to get you better. Well, that's not always comfortable, and there's going to be I always tell them, like, look, there is no growth without al Like there's going to be tough conversations that will be difficult. You have to be want to go down this journey with me If I'm not going to be the right person, and by all means, we take a poison pill together and separate, right will we kind of set that up beforehand because it's, uh, there's a lot of moving parts. Yeah, and you have
to be willing to look at all the details. The details is what becomes really important. You know, who you surrounding yourself with?
Man?
What are you feeding your mind? You know? Where are these little demons that you have kind of hidden that you don't want to admit, you know, wan anybody else to look at? You got to go there because at some point they're going to show up, and you don't want them showing up when it's the most important time. So that's that's the part of and then kind of
like you know, into the weeds part about coaching. A lot of times it's just throwing lobs out there in terms of telling them somewhere or another there I don't know, may be a little difficult for you, It might be too difficult, It might be tough. You know, what do they do?
Then?
All right, I'll show you, Yeah, watch me. And then as long as that, as long as that love is base, man, then I think people always want to be coached hard.
And I think also sometimes love doesn't feel very loving, right, you know, it's that.
Well said, I tell come up with that one, Nah, dude.
I tell my clients all the time like I used to, even with my personal training days back, not with a lad athletes, not with you know, high performers, just general public. I would say to my clients, if you want someone to hold your hand and tell you you're amazing every four minutes and rub your back and sing komba, I'm not the dude, right, I go. But if you want someone who genuinely wants to help you, explore your potential, power, possibilities,
support you, care about you. But I'm more interested in your long term potential and growth and development than I am in making you feel good for the next three minutes.
And you know that's it.
It's at the same time, of course, I don't want to crush people, but you know, people can't build mental toughness and resilience without doing fucking hard things like it doesn't.
Work right, you know, and with you man, loving doesn't always appear like loving.
Loving doesn't always feel like love, doesn't always feel loving, you know. So for me, if I'm like sometimes if I'm loving someone, that's not the experience they're having, but nonetheless it's coming from a platform of love, from an
intention of love. And the thing is that sometimes, you know, even with audiences robs, sometimes I say to them, like, even if it's a couple of hundred people, I will say, I can tell you what you want to hear or what you need to hear, what would you prefer because I can make this kumbay are comfortable and you all feel awesome, or we can, as you say, get into the weeds, open a few doors and be self aware and you know, not self loathing, just self aware.
And mostly they reluctantly say all right, you know, and I go.
And the reason that like, I'm not interested in turning up for a one hour keynote or a half day workshop and boosting my popularity hopefully they like it. But I'm actually interested in creating an experience with a group an individual or a group corporate, sporting whatever that is a catalyst for something powerful for them. And I go, you know, I'm not the answer. I'm not the solution. I'm just a bloke sharing thoughts and ideas and strategies.
You're the answer that you're the solution, you know. And I think there's a lot of coaches, and especially in the fucking personal development self help space, Rob who put themselves up as the solution.
I fucking hate that so much. It so much.
Well, because they're building I mean, what they're building is they're building dependency, you know, and they're not building capacity. We want to build capacity. And it's the same thing, man, I teld like, it's just the exact same thing. Man, I told my kids, you know what I mean, Like, I don't want you on the side of the road having no idea how to change his tire. I haven't done my job. My job is to teach you this. Well, it's going to be painful going through this and one
d per man. I can't stand that too. I don't know why it bothers me so much, man, because like coaches are going to put themselves out in front when it's like no, you know, if they want to give you credit as part of that, man, that's totally on them to do it. But it's not you, man, And I tell them that all the time. Man, you never hit a shot, right because well we can keep going
on that stuff, man, but I'm tellingly you worth you. Yeah, I don't want to get you on my podcast, man, Can I get you on my play hours.
Yeah, of course, but I think, thank you. I love that. But I mean the thing is too like if.
I'm making it about me, well then I'm making it about me and my ego, and it's like without me or nothing, and it's all fucking self serving bullshit, right. It's like, all I am is a resource. That's it for the people, the teams you're going to. I'm a resource, right that. And I might be valuable or not on the day, I might be on fire, you know whatever, but.
Ultimately what matters.
It's like we're fifteen one hundred and fifteen, at fifteen and fifty eight or something episodes into the You Project, six years, over a thousand incredible guests.
You're one of them.
But at the end of the day, it's just two blokes on a podcast talking, right. The value for the listener is what they might then do as a result of a strategy, an idea, a piece of information, a story that resonates. So I love my listeners and I love them listening, but what I really fucking love is when I get an email from someone who says I heard Rob Bell say this, and I went and did that, and this is my outcome, and then they might say, you're at your podcast changed my life and I write
back and go, no, it didn't. I haven't changed any lives. I've influenced a few people, but the only life I can change is mine. And by the way, thousands of people listen to that episode, but you're the only one who did that, so it's all you well done. Yeah, you know, And as you said, the moment that we start to create, you know, this culture or this idea of oh wow, without me, you wouldn't get there, then you know we're building an addiction, which is we're building
something destructive and unhealthy, you know, in a dependency. Like I used to say to my client, so this is a bad business move, but all of my clients, I'd say, I want to teach you, train you, prepare you to be able to do everything that you need to do to be self sustaining, to optimize your body, nutrition, sleep, lifestyle, physiology, blah blah blah, and then fuck you off. Right. I don't want you to you know, I love you, but I don't want you dependent on me, because then I've
just created another problem that you don't need. And ironically, most trainers won't do that because they wanted people keep people on the hook forever. But it's actually and I didn't do that strategically, but it's in the doing of that where you become more sought after because people know that, oh, I'm not just a pay packet for him. He'd eat like he really wants a bit of off. He really wants me to get good, and then he wants me to continue the journey by myself.
And I'm like, yes, so.
Yeah, absolutely, man. I tell them my athletes, I'm gonna work myself out of a job.
Yeah.
My insurance agent doesn't call me up saying, hey man, we were still good. Like that never happens, you know. I mean, it's like, so I tell them, like the same exact thing. Brother. It's like, I'm just a guide. Right, You're the You're the hero hero of the story, because you have to be the hero, right, You've got to be the main character.
Man.
Yeah, and I'm certainly not the hero. And the reason why two minutes because I love people and I want them to be successful and then to be able to, you know, just keep supporting them from the sidelines and if they need me back in to help, then hey, man, I'm there for you. But I'm a big believer though then that I believe that there is a God and I'm not it. M Yeah, come dependent on somebody else on that. Like you said, man, it becomes a different problem.
Yeah, maybe you're a conduit to that God, Rob.
Maybe, let's hope, dude.
So tell me about a hinge moment in the life of Rob Bell, something that's uh was transformational, that's going to resonate with us.
Oh man, I've had several hinge moments, and I'll share this one so well, I know what's like, which one do you want? And do you want like the tragedy one, do you want sort of the comedy? Do you want the professional one? Or do you want the one where if it's like that was really wild how this kind of all came to be.
Let's do that, dude. We've got half an hour.
Bro, you just go wherever you want.
I've been Okay, right, here we go, So I don't I don't share this one. I don't share this one a lot, but I still find this one to be very impactful. I'll try and synthesize as much I can, and you can tell I've told this story before so my grandmother for every Christmas, she gets me Reader's Digest magazine. As a teenager, that was our old gift to me.
Now Readers Digest magazine here in the States, Like it's just a bunch of stories, you know, and it's like, okay, So I would read these, you know, my own the toilet sometimes and hey, thanks grandma. One would come every month.
You know.
It's like, okay, I could have used cash, but this is great. And I came across this story again, I'm fourteen years old. It came across this story about runners that would go on these long runs and have these euphoric sensations and how they would that's why they would like run all these long distances, you know, and I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. Fourteen years old kind
of forget about it. I get into you know, high school, and then I'm in college and I'm going down to sports psycher out right, like I'm all in on this. And I'm a senior now in college, twenty three years old. And the professor in that class says, those that are psychology majors, you have to do you have to replicate a research study, something that has been done in the past, and you're going to present on it. That's going to help you for you know whatever, going to grad school.
When she said that, an image popped in my mind. And that image in my mind was that those runners from the Readers Digest magazine, right, those runners everyone in the sensation. I'm going to go find that, you know, and do that. And so I go and I kind of I don't exactly find that story, but I find it whatever's close enough to it, right, you know, And these runners go in these long runs, have you four sensations? And why they would keep running? And uh? And then
I presented it at a conference and graduate. You know. It's fine. So now I know what I want to do with my life, and that's going to grad school. So I need to. I apply to master's schools. And I moved out to Colorado because I wanted that year off right. I was a ski bomb. I skied ninety seven days that year in Crest Debute, and I was applying and applied to grad school, so I knew exactly where I wanted to go. And I applied to Temple University.
And the reason why I applied to Temple University was simply, uh, hey, it was one of the schools, you know. So I'm like, I have the phone interview with the professor and he keeps asking me about the study man, you know, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, in my ignorance at the time, I didn't even know who I was talking to.
And then what I do is then I go after this phone interview because it keeps drilling me about the study, you know, And I was like, well, you know, yeah, and I did this and it was great, you know.
And it's like.
And I go and I check up who it was and I'm talking to and the person I'm talking to whose name is Michael Sachs. And he was the one who coined the phrase runners high.
Wow.
So the study that I looked at and how they had these U four sensations, what runners high was all about. He was the one who did that story. Now, I was a fringe candidate at best, and I got an assistant ship. I got into Temple University. And the only reason why I got into Temple University is my grandmother would get me readers, digest magazines. If she never gets me magaz things, I guarantee you I never come across that.
I don't get into grad school, don't meet my wife, don't go on to Diversity Tennessee, and my story and path would have been different. But because she did, and because I had that story, man, so a reader Digest magazine became a hinge moment, and that's how small hinges can swing big doors.
Wow, dude, that's such a good story.
That's like that do man?
Yeah?
I love it. That's amazing, all right. So let's.
I don't tell that one a lot, you know what I mean?
No, I love that. I love that, And it's just it's so true. It's so true that.
The you know, sliding door moments, whatever hinge moments, it's tell us about your definition of mental toughness. Not not necessarily what the you know, the field says, but what is it for you when you try to explain it to a not try, but when you explain it, what is it?
What does it look like? How does it? How does it work?
Yeah, academics need to come up with their own definitions because they need to publish. So it's like, well, let me just come to this own definition of mental toughness. So there's tons out there, but I'm in a jeans and t shirt kind of guy. Right, Let's keep this simple. Mental toughness is how we deal handle and cope with the adversity, the struggle and the setbacks in life. That's all it is. It's not a matter of if. It's just a matter of when and what it's going to
look like now, depending on what our field is. Right. But mental toughness, oftentimes you know it's not going to win us anything, but if we don't have it, it will lose it for us. Yeah, And that's how I define it. And the other part that you can look at mental toughness is how you perform well under pressure. That is the other part of it as well. And if you're in it, then you will face pressure and it's how you deal with that. That's how I define it.
Maybe, Yeah, thank you. It's interesting. We talk about black a lot in sport. Obviously a hot performance. But I do a fair bit of work over here with victor I live in the state of Victoria, so Victoria Police.
I do some work with them and a bunch of other organizations.
But so I talk regularly about the idea of high performance, and I have to clarify and I go so when I'm talking about high performance. I'm for this conversation. I'm not talking about Olympic gold. I'm not talking about curing cancer, Nobel prizes, joining the Space program. I'm talking about your ability to get the most out of you, Like what is your potential on? How close to that are you? Like? What are you? And I always tell the story about my mum. Who's My mumm is eighty four. She weighs
about one hundred pounds. She's five one on a good day. She's had cancer three times, she was meant to die multiple times. She's had a heart attack, she had.
Half a lung removed.
And I spoke to her about an hour ago and she's the most upbeat, positive, Like she was going through chemo. She had five months of chemo therapy. She went down to thirty eight kilos, which is about eighty pounds. She had blood noses every day, she couldn't taste, she lost most of her hair. And I would ring her and she would ask me if I'm eating enough? Because you know, when I saw you last weekend, you look gaunt. I'm like,
you weigh eighty pounds. My leg weighs eighty pounds, and you know, like in the middle of all of her shit. You know, in the middle of absolute physical, mental, emotional chaos, she was worried about me and she wasn't complaining, you know. So for me, that's high performance, that's resilience, that's adaptability,
that's optimal mindset. Doesn't mean she never has a bad day, but you know, so for me, that idea of helping people just move towards whatever their version of high performance looks like.
You know, you know, I always look at this too, because it's uh, you know, in the book like a man search for meeting Victor Frankel, right, like we get meaning from our suffering. So whatever like you're going through, you have to find meaning in that suffering because that
is where you're given a different perspective. And I look at like perspective and gratitude as like the superpowers, you know, if you can have those, the perspective of man just really because all maybe just take things for granted, right, it's just how we are.
Man.
It's like when you can but when you can take that cup of coffee as the best cup of coffee in the world and like really mean it, like you don't need to, yeah, And then that's gratitude and perspective, and I think, like it's going through really really difficult things like that and near death experiences, when the essence of life just comes out and it's everything simple.
For sometimes I think I live.
Where I'm at right now is upstairs at my house in my office and straight downstairs kitchen lounge, all that shit, right, But sometimes this is weird. But sometimes I'm walking at night. I walk up the stairs and I've got like a drink in one hand, I've got a near thing and I'm talking. I'm having a conversation with someone. I've got my dinner on the other hand. I'm walking up the stairs, I'm twisting around the thing, I'm doing all this shit, and I just have this moment, how fucking amazing is
my body? Like?
How good?
This is funny rob But I'm like, especially after I spend time with my friend Joel, who's a quad, I'm like, how good is walking? I can stand up out of this chair. I've got five or six friends who can't do that. They can't they can't push back the chair like I am right now and stand up and walk to the door. They can't do it. But if all of a sudden perish the thought, you know, you or I with that or me anyway, you know, like all
all you would want, you would give everything. You have to be able to push the chair back, stand up and walk to the door. Right, But we can do it. We can turn on a tap, there's hot water, we can push a button, there's cool air. I can walk out and get in my car, drive to the gym with two million dollars worth of equipment for ten bucks a day and a week. And you know, like my life is so fucking privileged that I have to keep doing a stock take otherwise I forget, you.
Know, yeah, absolutely, man, I remember, like and I try to remind myself of that one all the time, Like when I go down and fill up my water bottle in the morning with ice, the ice is what does it for me? Because I just remind myself as there are people in this world that don't have ice. Man, Yeah, look at this ice. Look how awesome this is. And I'm the same thing man, when I'm like, you know, even stuff are like with some injuries and stuff like that.
And I heard this one absolutely, But it's like, when you are healthy, you have thousands of wishes a day. What do you want you're healthy when you're unhealthy. You got one wish?
Yeah, so true, so true.
Dude, Hey, I want to talk to you a little bit about have you got another ten or fifteen minutes?
Rob, Yeah, man, let's do it.
I want to talk to you a little bit about I'm fired.
I'm fired up, by the way, manly.
I'm yeah, I'm good.
You know, sometimes I forget, well I don't really, but I almost forget I'm on a podcast, especially when I I mean, I like most people, but when I connect with someone that I really like and I respect and I'm vibing with.
So I want to talk to you a bit.
About, you know, the idea of you know, doing better, thinking better, building habits, behaviors, living in alignment with our values, goals, all that fucking self help stuff, which is all true.
But there's the idea and then there's the messy, uncomfortable, practical journey, right, And I think what often gets in the way for many people is, you know, self doubt, self loathing, fear, self limiting beliefs, all of that. And that's not rare, that's common. And even me, I have my own bullshit. I overthink some things. I still have imposter syndrome. Even though I've done some good stuff, I
still have self doubt. I still you know, all that bullshit, right, but I learned to coexist with it and turn the volume down on it.
Right.
So people who are listening to this and going, yeah, that's all right, YouTube buffheads, but you know, I'm fucking riddled with fear or I think I'm shit, or you know, I have so much self doubt.
And any ideas around overcoming, not eliminating or eradicating, but turning down the volume on that stuff that's self limiting, you know, in a chaos.
Rob I believe that we can act or way into rate thinking easier than trying to think your way in a rate of acting.
Oh. I love that.
And the reason why I've always loved on that is because it's you know, just take the first step, man, Just sign up for the race. Man, you sign up for the race. What's the hardest thing about doing the race? Signing up for the race. Once you sign up for the race, and I just use this as an example because it's an easy one. It's slow hanging fruit. But you sign up for the race, your attitude and outlook changes immediately. Yeah, because now you have that goal and
now you have the vision and the little thing. So I always say, like, you know, you act your way into right thinking, and then you just got to start with one thing. I think too often we kind of go down this path of picking two three things that we really want to get better, and well, if three are good, why not just pick four. It doesn't work like that. You just got to pick one area and just master that. Just master that, and then what happens
is other things start to line up. So let's just say, I'm just gonna cut out ice cream, like, no more desserts or whatever, no more, I'm just gonna cut that out. Yeah, yeah, And and then you don't have to cut that out and then sugar and stuff like that out of the whole day. You're just cutting out the desserts. Man. And then you do that, you give yourself a confidence because you are going to achieve it. You give yourself the confidence.
You're going to give yourself that focus, that determination, and then other things are gonna line up. It's just how it happens, right, Because if you're giving this up, why not just have a little more water throughout the day? Right? Well, want to just go for that one more walk or something like that. And it doesn't have to be like the goal. The goal is the no dessert, but the
other things line up. And now, the one part that is so important about that journey is no matter what journey you're going to be going on towards betterment, improvement, man, there are going to be set. You've got to understand that. So the fact that you cut out dessert doesn't mean hey, there might not there might be a slip a couple weeks down the road. Yeah, and you know what, so fucking what? Yeah, But what happens is is we eat the dessert and then we say, all the thoughts start
coming back. And that's where the real demon lies, not the fact they eat dessert. You just discounted these last two weeks that you've done, and now every failure that you've had, like in the past, comes back and it starts telling you, look, see, I told you couldn't do it. Man, why do you even try setting that goal to begin with? When you have to understand, Look, it was just one dessert, man, get back on it. That becomes then the real importance.
And that's where I think the real mental toughness and real resiliency and strength comes into place. After you have that. You don't have to say screw it, I blew it. You just say, you know what, Yeah, I messed up, man. And that's the difference between a lapse and and a collapse. Different between a relapse and a collapse is that, man, is how your attitude and outlook remains.
You know.
They looked at addicts, man, Addicts that have fallen off the wagon. They had to drink and they they ended up gotting sober as opposed to those that didn't. And you know what, the big thing underneath it was those that had to drink but still end up getting sober know that that wasn't them and that wasn't their identity. That they still believe that they could be successful. Those that didn't it became a collapse, man, because they thought, man,
that was their identity. Man, everything was in that, you know, and look, I couldn't do it. And then that's man, where there's a lot of deep layers to that one. But that's the part is like you're going to mess up, you still just have to keep on going. That's the big thing, man, Because flat tire on your way to Sydney doesn't mean you got to turn all the way back around and go back to Melbourne. You just change the tire and you keep going.
You know, look at you.
Chucking in the fucking the Aussie references beautiful OSI podcast.
What was that? What was that race from Melbourne to Sydney?
Yeah, so there.
Yeah, I don't know that they'd do it so much anymore, but for a very long time he used to be sponsored by a big shopping center out here called Westfield. And yeah, so yeah, they would, they would, they would race from Melbourne to I don't even I should.
Cliff.
So there was there was a farmer, basically untrained dude.
I think he was fifty five or sixty.
He'd never done anything competitive, but he spent his life running around a farm literally all day, every day, not all day, but and he was just had this but what he was able to do, Like he ran slower than everybody else, but he ran fucking twenty hours a day.
Yeah right, so while everyone yeah, he just kept going dude. So and that's and that's life. Rather like it's a game of attrition. You're staying the game long enough, you will be sixcess us. Will I guarantee it you know, because it's not how fashion do, it's who slows down the least.
Yeah, and that's I mean one of the things that I get, which I understand, but I kind of correct once I start my presentation. Sometimes I get introduced as a motivational speaker, right, which I'm not. I'm an educator, I'm a coach whatever, right, And then I talk about motivation, and you know, the thing is that, like in the
sense of getting shit done. You know when we talk about motivation as a state that we get in, you know, inspiration, motivation, that heightened emotion, and people think that's the key, and I kind of unpack that with them and go, look, when you're motivated in that state, it's great, but you know, there's going to come a point in time and it could be tonight, or it could be tomorrow, it could
be a month, but where you're not motivated. And I would say to all of my clients, you know, athletes, et cetera, I don't care what you do when you're motivated. I care what you do when you can't be fucked. I care what you do when no one's watching. I care what you do when you don't want to get out of bed. I care what you do when you've got zero inspiration, right, because it's our ability to be able to do those things that we don't want to do when we're getting no accolades, no cheer squad, no
fucking trophy, no pat on the back, no validation. You know, that's the thing. And it's that ability to be able to I know, you know all of this, but to be able to just suck it up and go. I don't want to do it, but I need to do it.
Off I go.
You know, And it's that you know, people, people, so many people have said to me over the years, you know, I just lost motivation. I'm like, and and.
I go, welcome to the human club.
We all fucking lose motivation, you know. It's like people say to me, like, I started lifting weights when I was fifteen, so I pretty much have not stopped for forty five years. I'm sixty, right, and I'm not a superstar. I don't have great genetics, but for my age, et cetera, I'm in not bad shape.
Every every gig I do, some bloke.
Will come up to talk to me and say something like, how do you stay motivated to hit the gym? Every day and I go I don't. It's literally hardwired into my operating system. It requires zero discipline, zero self control, zero willpower, zero motivation because it's literally intertwined with who I am and how I am. It just takes a while right for people to get that. It ain't about how inspired you can be for a.
Day one hundred percent man's And that's why I think it gets that lifestyle, you know, it is when it becomes intertwined. If this is just what I do now, I love it, man, because it's fun for me. You know. It's my thing is running, and it's it's there at five thirty in the morning when it's dark out and I get to run with my chocolate lab. That's the best part, man, for me, because it's quiet. I'm getting
after it. I'm focusing on my breathing and it's still, you know, and I'll pray out there and just enjoy that moment. And I mean I never run with any music nothing, man. I don't need a distraction when it comes out. I just need to be in the moment. But it's it's not like it's just what I do, yeah, because I love doing it.
Yeah, I'm imagining you don't get particularly stressed or anxious or maybe I'm wrong.
Oh, man, I do. Yeah, that's that's another reason why I have to work out and exercise. If I don't, Man, I'm yeah right stressed.
Right, that's your guy, that's your got to. I want to wind up with.
Yeah, some of my research on you, So my research my PI day is on a think called metaperception, which is your ability to understand your ability to understand the you experience for others. In other words, the question at the core of my research, if we personalized it for you, is what's the Rob Bell experience like for others? What do you think that is? What do you think the rob experience is like for your family, for your friends, for an audience.
It's a great question. I asked the question in my podcast that makes people pause as well. And I hope and what I think though, and I'm trying to think
back because not every situation is always positive. But I believe that those that I get to spend time with, and I'm fortunate enough to get to spend time with, are better off and better people because we shared the same breath, we shared the same oxygen, you share the same space, you know, and I just also pray that that make an impact in their lives, and I want, I want that's the that's the biggest why for me.
But I believe in that parts to be true, that people are better off and they are better people, and they made an impact because we've got to spend time together and break bad together and go through tough times.
Yeah, good fee man, Well that's that's a good answer.
What's yours?
Do you know? What? Like, if I'm being brutal and authentic, you know, I think probably better to ask my audience. But seeing as I'm doing a playage doing this, I'll give you an answer. I think more people that listen to my show will listen to my presentations or involved in my workshops more than not have a positive opinion.
I think, you know, It's like I get to it because I have a pretty big audience somewhere on everyday show, I get two or three emails a week essentially telling me I'm a fucking idiot, which.
I'm okay with.
Man, Yeah, you need you need people. Look, I think some people think I'm intense, some people think I'm inspiring, some people think I'm a little bit intimidating. Which I don't like.
But you know, when I used to lecture at university or.
College as you call it, I would get mostly positive reviews. You know that the students would, but probably about one in ten would say something like Craig's intimidating, which you know, then I tried to address. But yeah, look, I what my intention is to help and love and inspire and empower people to explore their own you know, potential. That's my intention. I don't always do it. I'm a work in progress. But you know, I think most people think
I'm pretty driven and pretty. I think they might think I'm a little obsessed, but I'm I'm not. I'm just fucking curious. And it's like, my energy at sixty is ridiculous, dude, my brain, my mind, my body, my creativity, my curiosity, my excitement. It's more than it was when I was thirty. I don't even know why. Like, nothing in me feels like I'm slowing down. I could drop dead next week, but today I feel fucking amazing. So yeah, but it's an interesting thought experiment, isn't it.
Yeah, that's good. I like that one. I asked, like, what it's like to be your client? But I like the way that you put it a lot better. Hence that's really interesting, PhD. I'll try and do this in one or two minutes for you and you'll totally understand this. But so I created a little kind of self awareness pyramid which is not really part of my research but just out of my research which I share with groups. And at the base of the pyramid.
Is metacognition, just thinking about thinking, right, because most people don't really think about how they think, and most people, most people automatically think that other people think like them, which is false consensus effect, the false consensus effect, which is they think that you know what's coming out of their mouth, their intention will be the other person's experience, right, That's often not the case.
And then when you think people think like you, but they don't and you don't have that awareness, that's a problem. So the next layer up, or the next you know, kind of level on the pyramid is theory of mind, is thinking about how other people think and as you know, trying to have an insight into someone else's reality in the moment. And then the next one up from that is my research which has meta perception, which is trying to understand the you experience for the rest of the world.
And then at the top of that is meta accuracy, which is just basically how good you are at that. But it's funny because you know, in leadership, in coaching, in conflict resolution and problem solving, in team building, communication, developing, culture, this, all of these things are crucial.
But they're not spoken about much. You know, people don't. People don't. I mean even the metaphor rob that you know, you and I are in the same comp or not the metaphor, but the reality you and I are in the same conversation but not the same experience. And let's
say we have ten thousand people listen to this. No one's going to have an identical experience, although they're listening to an identical thing, you know, and that whole kind of you know, there's the having an awareness that I'm not looking at the world, I'm looking through my window at the world. So there's there's the world, and then there's my story about the world, and they're different things.
There's the stimulus, and then there's my story about or response to the stimulus, which is why you throw a snake at somebody and they have a fucking heart attack. Is so throw the same snake at somebody else and they give it a cuddle.
You know.
It's like, it ain't about the snake or the stimulus, it's about.
What it means to you.
So that whole kind of and this isn't podcast for another day, but I love that shit. Yeah it's good man, dude. Maybe we'll go there on your show. Hey, Rob, tell people where they can follow you, find you, buy your stuff, connect with you. And I'm so grateful to.
You, absolutely, man. I appreciate that. You know. If people go to my website, it's just it's doctor Robbell dot com. It's b R R O B B E L L dot com. All my books are there. I've got a I've always got it, like a free resource. It's just a focused roadmap, like seven super fast ways to win the day. But yeah, my latest book was I Can't Wait to Be Patient, and it's just all focused on
the power of time, you know. And I'd be happy to send you to one mate, And but you know, all my resources are there, man, if anybody goes there, it's always a good one. Just a quick download form. But I appreciate you having me on, brother. I want to get you on mine and we've already titled your podcast and that is the same conversation, different experience.
Yeah, nice do what I did there?
Thanks Bro.
Well, we'll say goodbye affair, but for the moment Dr rob Bell appreciate you.
You're a fucking superstar.
Thank you.
Cheers mate,