#1547 Scared Sh*tless Of Public Speaking - Harps & Tiff

don't know if I'm allowed to say. I think I'm allowed to say, just broadly speaking, I did some work with Victoria Police, which went all day, and then I went straight from there in the city to the thriving metropolis of bris Vegas on the big airplane. I still don't know how the fuck those things stay in the sky. I try not to think about it too much when I'm up there, because this thing's made of metal and it's heavy as fuck. I'm not sure how this all works.

Physics is not my strong point. I tried just to put my headphones on and la la la. If I was a drinker that would definitely be the time where I would drink. And then yesterday I did an afternoon with Queensland Rail which was great, Young David up there and the team and scooched back into Melbourne last night. Had my first meeting this morning at seven hundred with Tommy Jacket And now it's nine twenty two and I've got a day full of stuff on a Friday. But

it's all good. And what about you? Are you? You just got back from getting your body cracked?

to what you associate chiropractic to be. But I go there and he does these muscle testing with my arm because the shoulders, you know, and I've got no strength or and then he'll click aty click or like I had no strength in one leg. I couldn't lift my leg up and push against his weight. And then he goes like diggle on one of my ribs and I giggle and he's like just a second and he dickle

digckle again. And then next minute he goes push against my arm and my leg's like, yeah, all right, we'll go like you just switches stuff on.

personal trainers who have got master's degrees and undergrad degrees, postgrad degrees of personal trainers who've got a certificate for and fitness, which and by the way, some people with postgrad degrees are terrible trainers and some people with a basic qualification are fucking brilliant trainers. So one doesn't necessarily

equal the other. But you know, it is true that you can become that qualified, registered and ensured as a personal trainer in a very short period of time really without having been into a gym very much and potentially never having worked out yourself. All of those things are true. That which is also scary. So yeah, I think you know. I reckon the way to find a chiropractor or an osteopath, or a physio or a personal trainer or an exercise physiologist.

The best way is recommendation, Like just potluck ain't the go.

they could improve their public speaking skills. One person asked me how they could overcome their fear or did I have any insights or strategies or ideas overcoming their fear of public speaking? And then another person that I spoke to yesterday was very curious about how I got to do my job, like, how do you how many times do you do this year? I could you know when you will start to do the numbers? It's like you can go, ah, how much do you charge for a

one hour keynote or you know? And I try to be a little bit vague because I'm not really into that, right, you know. But I could see this person figuring out what might be the potential earning capacity of somebody who's a reasonably good, reasonably accomplished, reasonably busy professional speaker, and I could see the ka ching in their eyes, right fucking dollar signs, And I'm like, yeah, firstly, I'm sixty.

I did my first paid speaking gig at twenty six, which is thirty four years ago, and for about ten years I was somewhere between between fucking terrible and average. And arguably some people might say that still who knows. But so someone who wanted to just get better at it because it's part of their job, they're not terrified, but they just don't feel they're very good at it, and they get a little bit lost. She said to me,

I get a bit lost. I get up there, I know what I'm going to say, then I start, Then I fucking I kind of lose direction, and then I sit down and I remember all the shit I meant to say that I didn't and then the other person or the next person, like I said, was just has to do it periodically and is terrified. And the third person likes doing it and wants to turn it or potentially turn it into, if not a side hustle or

a secondary revenue stream, potentially their main career. So this chat everyone is in no way an instructional fucking workshop or a directive or a prescription. But rather I thought we might have that chat about you know, TIFFs in the ballpark. Now she's doing some paid work, some unpaid work, she's working with teams and companies. Definitely is further along in terms of progression and skill development and final product than I was that many years into my speaking career.

So where do we start? So what do you have any questions for me? Or have you had any light bulbs? How many years would you say you're into it now? Like actually being paid to do it a couple ease?

actually also done a lot of background work. But I do feel like I've spun the wheels on just going ahead and getting it upper running and getting out there and doing more of it. I've waited in the wings and I get what comes to me. I find it that way, And I think that would relate to a lot of people that want to speak, but just you don't know where to start or when you're allowed to say. I'm a speaker.

in communication or whatever it is. Right, So I think you know the amount of people who say to me something like I would really love to be a professional speaker. And I say, right, what do you want to talk about? And they don't know, they can't give me a definitive answer.

I go, that's a problem. So even if it might be broadish, you need to you need to have some clarity around who is your target audience, who are the people that you want to speak to, what are the things that you want to speak about, And then also to understand that, especially when you start to climb the professional speaking ladder a little bit, you know, the money that some speakers demand. And remember, like a very small percentage of professional speakers make lots of money. Write lots,

I mean lots of money. But there are a decent percentage of people who may definitely make a living from corporate speaking professional speaking, whether or not it is in the corporate space or with teams or athletes or the general public or whatever, or running your own works shops. Right, But it's trying to figure out. In business, we talk about this idea of a usp a unique selling proposition, and all that means is you maybe having or doing or offering something that is not exactly the same as

a million other providers. Right, even when someone says to me, I want to start a podcast. I'm like, great, Please, don't just be a bad replica of the million that are already in the same space. Right And if you're going to do a podcast, really have a crack, really do great prep, really have great conversations, really get good guests, really make sure the production is high value, the editing

is good, the audio is good. That you know, and then they're like, ah, by the time I go through that, some people have already given up because the idea and it's like the idea of like even when you and I started working together a little bit, with me mentoring you and helping you a little bit, and I basically said to you, and I still say to you, and we both did a gig last weekend where neither of us got paid, but we were doing something to help and support Right where I say to you, and I

say to every speaker, and I'll shut up after this, because you've got your finger up, your pointed, little witchy finger is take any gig that you can get, because it's training. Like you want to be a professional footballer. You've got a fucking train and you've got to do so much work. Skilled development fitness building, resilience building before

you even run out onto the ground. And so for you, doing all of these free gigs is that training, It's that prep, It's that ten thousand hours to become a master. And you did one on the weekend for sorry, just quickly we did for our friends who some of our audience know, Brad and Carley from the Fit Shop. Their joint burned down, and we had Joel Sardi and we had doctor Jodi Richardson and yourself and myself and we

did about a fight. I know. It ended up being about a four hour afternoon with a bunch of great, receptive, warm, beautiful humans just raising dough for a good cause. I didn't get paid. You didn't get paid. I don't know about you, but I fucking loved it. And I get just as excited getting paid zero as I do. Obviously I'm not doing corporate work for zero, but you know what I mean, it's not like, oh, if I'm getting paid ten x versus zero X, I'm not trying less hard.

I'm not less invested, you know.

So that was good. But I loved that. What I wanted to say before was when you were talking about, you know, what do you want to talk about? And I feel like I can really relate to still to those people because I'm half a step out of that now. But what I still experience is it's like because a picture those people listening now going oh like and then feeling snookery because you're saying I'll figure out what you want to talk about, or I would probably say figure

out what you can talk about? Because is it because figuring out what understanding, what you enjoy or you think people want to hear versus how people hear you and what they take from you as different things. And I used networking for all these years not to build my business, but to do the things I love and opportunity in that group to stand up for ten minutes and present on my business, which is essentially kind of your business

sales pitch. Instead, I picked a topic to talk about, and I remember the last one I did was going in and talking about vulnerability to or pack of business people. When I went and I got Bosster ccenera in the morning, so I was like, fuck, I hell, were you really going to go in and just talk about vulnerability? But I loved it and it landed harder than any of the other talks I'd done, And so that's where I learned and went, oh, so what do people get from

me when I speak? And every time I do an opportunity like the young teen girls that I did with the rev earlier this year, that I thought, well, that's not really the I don't think that's I wouldn't have thought that that would be the room I would love to be. And I did one event and went, gee, I really enjoyed. I really liked delivering that message and having that conversation. So I think also just encouraging people to think broadly, but yeah, you'll learn a lot of

just taking the opportunities that do come. The hardest part is then taking that step to weave it and I've had to get help this year from somebody outside of me who she sits down with me every week for a couple of hours, and by the end of two hours with someone out of my circle, looking at the product that is Tiff now and who she is, she got she I walk away with a sense of me as a speaker that is above and beyond what I had walking into it, because I mean, I'm just meet like,

I'm me in the middle of the mess, and that I don't know what would I talk about? How do I describe five keynotes?

to build connection and rapport and trust. One of the questions I asked the group was to put up their hand if part of their job was dealing with people on the phone or face to face, solving problems, having meaningful conversations, understanding the needs of customers, blah blah blah, all of these things, right, and of course everyone puts up their hand. But then you think about, well, what are the variables involved in how do I work with

another human being who isn't me? How do I have a meaningful conversation with somebody who isn't in my head or my reality? How do I understand their cognitive land escape? And by that I mean what they're thinking right now, theory of mind. Where are they at in this moment, What is their emotional state, what are their needs? What do they want to get from this phone call or this zoom call or this conversation or this negotiation. Right, so there's all of these things which are comfortably in

my wheelhouse of communication, mindset, psychology, behavior. But then I need to figure out that's all good, Craig, But how do I relate that to their work and their job? You know? So then I go, what do you guys do? What are the things that you day to day do? Tell me what you do every day? And then let me tell you about this stuff that I understand, and

let's bring that together and see how that works. And then you can see light bulbs going off and you can see people going ah, like when you say, I don't need you to agree with the person, the rude, angry person on the phone, but it's in your interest to try to understand them, or the person in the boardroom that you know they think A, and you think B, and Sally thinks C and John thinks D. We don't all need to be on the same page, but we need to be respectful and we need and this is

what happens if there's no respect. This is what can happen if there is respect. So it's just trying to go, what's the stuff that I know about? And you might go, what's the stuff that you know about that that might be relevant, helpful, empowering, or of value to this group or this person. And it's so I think that starting with you know, if you're listening to this and you're like, where the fuck do I start? Where you start is by analyzing and becoming aware of what do you know

a lot about? Genuinely know a lot about? What do you know a lot about or a fair bit about that you could share with people that might help people, like it doesn't need to be more complicated than that. And then so the like, I've gone through this maybe four times, I think in fifteen hundred episodes, but I'll

do it once more. And you've heard it too many times, TIF, But it's like, what, there's four steps for this, And one is what is the thing that I want to talk about or what is the idea or the message that I want to share with people? Right? And then the number two is what is the story that I can tell that will help people understand the idea or understand the strategy or the topic or the message, right, Because when I just talk to people about, you know,

research or science. Like I've said this before, there's a big difference between me talking about statistics around childhood obesity versus me talking about my journey as a fat kid. It's very different experience for people. But I'm saying the same thing, but one involves an emotional kind of resonance. Now I'm talking about standing on lane eight at the swimming sports and feeling like dogshit and humiliated and embarrassed.

And then and then what happened emotionally, psychologically, sociologically, and then what I did, and then what I created, and then the lessons and the realizations out of that moment in time, all of a sudden, now you're connecting with people on an emotional and a sociological level, whereas when I'm just talking about graphs and charts and data and science and research, for the most part, I am not. So Number one is what is the thing, the idea,

the topic, the strategy. Number two is what's a story that you have to share with people? And also you notice with you and I TIV a lot, there are stories what did you do today, how did that work for you? Blah blah blah, What was the lesson for you? And there's laughter, there's humor, and I'm lucky. That's kind of just how I am. Like, I don't you know, I mean, that's my default setting is stories and humor. But I don't do that to be strategic. But I

do realize that the more levity, lightness, fun connection. Like imagine you and I get on and it sounds like and we deliver great information, but it's a fucking boring monologue. People have tuned out seven minutes in, which is why one of the reasons why I want to catch up with you at the start, I want to know what

you've been doing. You want to know what I've been doing, and so that when we can, when we can morph the information, the data, the ideas into some kind of experience of storytelling and humor and relatability and vulnerability, as you said, then we can create a good experience for

people to be in the middle. And it's like I am always thinking, maybe not in my prefrontal cortex at the front of my mind, but I always have an awareness of even in this moment, right how to Tiff and I do a podcast around corporate professional speaking whatever it is, is that even if someone doesn't want to do it, they still want to keep listening because a fuck, this is actually not what I thought. This is interesting. So I'm just finished, and then you jump in, I'm

really sorry. So topic idea story number three is why does it matter? Like why do we need to know this? Like, in other words, what's the value of this message? And then the last one is just how do I put it into practice? So number three is why does it matter? In other words, Craig, why are you telling me this, Why is this important? And I can tell you, well, it's important for these reasons. Blah blah blah. This is like you know when I say, understanding how other people think.

Theory of mind is an interpersonal superpower because if you can understand them, you can connect with them. If you can't understand them, you can't connect. And people go, ah, fuck that makes sense. All right, I'm paying attention now, right, and then how do I apply it? Well? You shut the fuck up, you lean in, you listen to people like I'm not doing now, I'm overtalk looking you you lean in. I'm not following my own teaching and leading. Well I'm trying.

I even looked back on this talk and referenced. And I see, now next time I go into a talk with that in mind, it'll help me. So my the biggest challenge is I come up with the idea. All I need to know is the general story. I know I'm off the cuff. I'm better off the cuff. Too much scripting and planning is just chaos for me. It'll

send me into my mind going blank. But I can then notice another little story and just follow that trail in the middle of when in the middle of the talk and you know that, I think that happened once or twice, so I'll dart off in different directions. What this structure does is reminds me to go yet bump boom, and I think, tidy up that wrap up. So you've always got somewhere in the middle, like a little safety peg in the middle of the whole structure to come

back to if you get a little bit lost. It's like, I'll just wrap this bit up here and then I've got the next bit to start, and everything feels quite tidy, and it's interesting, like luck boxing when you're not like I didn't have enough room for that on Saturday Sunday because I had a whole bunch of things that I was new ish, things I was keeping top of mind

this time on top of all the stuff I'm comfortable with. Yeah, and now next time I can go all right, well, now I'm comfortable with all that, and I'm going to just make sure I do this in a really tidy way.

morning in Brisbane. We're friends and he does some public speaking too, and while we might use the same kind of four step vague kind of thing, I would not say to him just get up there, read the room, interact, be you know a bit, because he ain't that like he's very much an academic. He's very he's a deep thinker, he's brilliant his but he's not better or worse. He's different.

He's different to me, he's different to you. And the way that he is going to produce the best outcome he can produce on a stage in front of people is not the same as me or you. He's not the wacky zany in the moment storytelling, you know, dick joke telling, fucking Hey gues funny thing happened? You know? That ain't him. And so we're not saying definitely not saying today be like Harps or Tiff. We're not saying that we'll find your own lane, find your own kind

of protocol, like what works for you. But there are some basic things that universally work, like, you know, reinforcing a point with a story that people will relate to, or if you can when it's you know, appropriate a little self deprecation or a little humor or.

it's terrifying no matter what. So you're going to be uncomfortable and probably if not shit at it, then at least feel like you're shit at it no matter what. So in the middle of that feeling, how do you know, actually, this isn't really the right structure for me. I'd be better with a lot more scripting and planning, or I'd be better with completely off the cuff.

your feeling, tell me, you know. So with me, I try to find out, you know, if it's someone like you, I already know you, but if it's someone I don't know, I try to get a sense of their personality and the way they communicate, and whether or not they're high or low anxiety, whether or not they're you know, type A crossing the T dotting the ie, pushing the toilet before the wee'ze finished, fucking come on, you know, pushing the button, I should say, you know, I try to

get a sense of who and how they are, and then with them collaboratively figure out something that might best suit their style, their personality and their needs. Right. So, but it's like, how do you become? I know we say this too much, but you know, I think sometimes we need to hear the same thing a hundred times before it gets embedded in our DNA, Like, how do you become a black belt? Oh? Will you become a

white belt? First? And where you start is I'm not very good, but that's okay, that's because you're brand new at it. So I'm going to start with a plan. I'm going to get in front of any audience and I'm going to start, and there'll be things that I do terribly and things that aren't bad, and maybe one or two things that fucking kill right. But in the middle of all of that, I'm going to walk away

and then I'm going to deconstruct what happened. I'm going to do a stock take, and I'm going to go, Okay, this is what I learned. Next time, you're going to put that learning on top of what you already had, so instead of it being a one out of ten, it might be a one point five. And now you build on that and then over time you develop understanding, awareness, skill, perception, you know. But that's but there are some people who what is really good for them, especially early days, is

more structure, more organization. Okay. It's like I helped someone recently who was terrified and they had to do a fifty minute session, and I said, what about this? What about ten slides? Okay, not one hundred slides, ten slides, A bit of an intro, a bit of an outro, but that gives you around five minutes per slide. And on each slide you might have two or three dot points and if you talk let's say three, what does

that give us nearly two minutes per dot point. Oh yeah, and all of a sudden because they had structure, and then there was that word up on the screen to trigger them, remind them, prompt them much more calm and over time, what will happen is the ten slide person will become a five slide person, and then they'll become a three slide person, and then they might become a

zero slide person, or it depends. It's like if you're doing something which is more you know, like every time I do an academic presentation at Monash where I have to present my research, all of it, all of it is on slides, and all of it is in a certain way and formula because freestyle, hey, let's tell a story and be hilarious, Craig Harper is not appropriate for

that environment or that particular role. So when I stand in front of an academ an academic board and I present my research, they don't they give zero fucks about whether or not I'm likable, funny, hilarious, great storyteller, how much experience I've got, whether or I've written seven books or no, that like, none of that matters at all, and it shouldn't matter at all, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're sixty, it doesn't matter if you're

twenty three. All that matters is you are a PhD student at Monash. What is your research? What are you doing? What are your findings? What are you doing with it? Why does the world need this? Show us the next slide, show us the comparative data. All right, we're going to pass you or fail you. Fuck off. Cool, And that's the protocol. And so in that habitat, I'd be what

I need to be to get through that. And again, so this is why, you know, if I'm talking to some year ten students, which I don't do often but I probably do once or twice a year, year ten, eleven or twelve, the way that I would go in Obviously I can't swear. Obviously I need to be quite mindful of my style and my language and my stories, of course, and I go and do that. Like as

we're recording this, it's Friday morning. Next Wednesday, I'm going to do a gig for fern Wood and is going to be me and one hundred and fifty ladies in a room that could be fucking mayhem, No dick jokes, No Dick jokes no in you know, it's like, of course, of course, So I go okay, and I'm not I'm

not being I'm not compromising who I am. I'm just being aware and mindful and thoughtful and sharing hopefully some kind of social and emotional intelligence in the context of where I am and how I need to be to do that job. Well. Right, So this is why there is no fucking three step plan. Who are you talking to? How long are you talking for? What's the setting? Is it a construction site or is it a group of surgeons at the Cumberland in Lawn that I've done. Is

it blokes in prison? Is it Queensland rail in a fancy schmancy room like I did yesterday? Is it Victoria Police and an off site venue like I did on Wednesday? Is it? What is it? And so? But there are things that you can take in, you know, preparation is you and I are not big preppers. You're a bit of a study for the exam the night before kind of girl. We know that. What is that about?

a block it. There's just outright refusal. It's like having a child that just goes no, no, no. And then the worst thing is the day before getting the zone, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's it, the ideas calm, it all flows, and then I'm like, amazing, I wish I had two weeks to really embed this. Look, you're going to really like just go over it and over it for the next two weeks.

are when you stand in front group. Now, if you can stand in front of a group and be you know, ready to go, pumped, excited, but also calm, then you can deliver.

the bloody thousand steps or go or do something. But just do it as a leader and be the facilitator of that social thing. It's just the first step of starting to speak with authority and command things and be listened to and stand up. And it sounds like a tiny thing, but for some of us that can make you feel sick, be like, I don't want to be that person.

our colic, but still kind of problematic alcohol consumption. And so she started a Facebook page and started to because you know, and then it ended up where now she she she's a speaker. Now she's got thousands of people that follow her. She's a facilitator, she's a leader. She's written a book, hasn't.

is a really good idea. Is it's just to yeah, just to organize something where you're the organizer and you're out the front and going, hey, this is what we're doing.

just think I'm not the person. Like my biggest fear of speaking in front of you was, you know, since twenty fifteen or sixteen, when I first started stalking away and going this dude's I'm gonna get a bit of this crag up and rubbing off on me because he does cool shit and I like his style. You were the mentor, and then to speak in front of you,

it was terrifying. So it's terrifying thing. Ever, I was like, I'm good speaking to hundreds of people elsewhere in business, networking and all of the things, but Craig carp is going to be in the room and that was.

you're definitely better than I was, definitely better. At the same time, your development is quicker than mine. All right, So I'm going to share one more tip and then you're going to share one tip and we're going to wrap it up. So I don't know if this is can you see that? Oh yeah, yep, right, so you've seen that before. I just held up an a four page to tip everyone and I So yesterday I did like I said, I did it two our workshop interact.

It was kind of talk workshop that was interactive. And what I do is I I don't do you know, I don't do PowerPoint. I don't do all that stuff, which is not say you shouldn't, it's just say I don't. I tend to write a lot on the whiteboard. I walk in, I literally will ask the group a question to get a sense of where the group is at. And as I've said, like, what is really important is that as soon as you can, you build rapport and

connection with the group. So don't ask a question that that is unlikely that you'll get some kind of response. So by example, you know, don't walk in and go, oh, how's the weather today. People are just people are not going to go oh yeah, especially when you've got a room full of people who don't know you and potentially

don't know each other. So you don't ask a question that requires them to talk, because often they don't want to talk in front of the group, and while the question might resonate, they're not going to embarrass themselves potentially and be the one that talks. So I would say something like, when I'm talking about what's it like being around me, I'd say, all right, put wrap your hand.

If you've heard your voice on audio tape, on an audio recording, and then everyone's heard it, so all the hands go up, and they're okay because the other hands are going up and they don't have to talk, and everyone kind of goes, oh god, yeah, yeah, they put up their hand, and then I say, put your hand down. Now, put your hand back up if you think you sound shit right, And everyone laughs because everyone thinks their own

voice sounds shit on recording. And now all of a sudden, I've had hands go up the whole room twice, and people are laughing at themselves. And then they're like, oh yeah, my voice is fucking hot, and all of a sudden, there's laughter, there's connection, the tension is broken, and there's a different energy in the room. With two simple questions, right so, or it might be that famous Craig Harper

question put up your hand. If you're an overthinker, rite that one and everyone goes oh, they roll their eyes, they put up the fucking hell I overthink everything. How's that working out for you? Hahaha? And all that. Right, So it's doing something in the first minute or two that you know people will interact with or respond to, but be very Sometimes I see people getting up and they're very nervous and they ask a bad question and it takes the energy from not that great to terrible.

So the question that you ask or your opener, and you don't have to be a stand up comic. So the bit of the a four bit of paper that I just showed tip, which I might post somewhere, is essentially, let me see, I would say about forty dot points on a page, and each one of the dot points, so I'll read out a few that I have written down. Awareness. That's a point motivation, success, metacognition, purpose, I might put on my glasses so I can read values, solution, focus,

identity that you experience, courage, teachability, subjective reality. So I have all of these, each one of those things, each one of those words or those prompts, I can talk about for at least twenty or thirty minutes, so I can open the subjective reality door and go through that

and we won't come back for another half hour. Right, So sometimes rather than having because this is what will happen if you are in front of an audience and you are nervous, and you've got pages of notes in front of you that in the moment, you actually can't read them because you can't look that down that long and look away from the audience because the audience are all looking at you. Now, if you're not looking at them and you're reading notes, you look incompetent, and your

anxiety will go through the roof. So if you're not using PowerPoint, just have some single words. I have them in really big letters, like I have twenty font and I highlight them in different colors so each of those stands out so I can just look down and I can go self awareness. Okay, let's talk about that, let's talk about what it's like being around you, Let's talk about your understanding of yourself and so on. So that's

my last tip. What's your last tip for everyone who's thinking about kicking off the speaking, if not career, just doing some public speaking.

with so many years. I couldn't have one hundred words on a page and fit that together, but the concept's amazing. I think for me, I like to my slides are really they're kind of a chance to make sure that my personality is in front of people. So I like them to be a bit cheeky, a bit funny, and I like to open with something a bit maybe something that gets people to laugh and it's a bit out there, and often it's a photo of me with a black

eye if it fits the talk. And then the last slide, which I was really disappointed on Sunday, I didn't actually verbally pointed out like I usually do, but I've got my cat's ass and it says the end, and it's got my cat'st of me with selfie with my cat's bum on the slide. You probably didn't notice that, but there's a photo of me and my dog on one side smiling and the cat's ass on the other. But on those slides, just I like each point to be so that it just becomes a part of the person.

It really shows my personality and it gives and it's a chance for people. Just has a word prompt and maybe an elaboration on the prompt if people want to take a photo, So if I can elaborate with a short sentence or statement on that, so that it so I know people are taking those messages that I'm talking about the concepts. But I never have things that I'm reading word for word like.