I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment and the project, Craigsmind, I'm doctor Hannah is up there and thriving metropolis of Sydney. Apparently it's cold. She's sitting with the heater just blowing on her feet, just just wasting all the energy. No, see how I threw you under the bus straight away?
I look bad.
No you don't. You're just trying to stay warm. That's okay.
My toes they're like icicles.
My partner tells me every time I go to bed, my favorite place to put them is right under his thumb. And apparently they're like the ten toes of death because they're just little icicles. I'm sure a lot of other women can relate to that, or partners of of death.
Really very cold.
You you put your feet under his bum.
Yeah, like when we're sitting on the couch, when we're in bed, like I'll just like put them underneath his body because they're nice and warm.
I don't trust me.
I'm not the only woman who does that. I am sure there are other women who do that.
I'm absolutely sure. Now you sound a little bit sick today. Have you got the flu? Have you got COVID, are you.
Oh no, I don't have the flu. I don't have COVID. Actually I have morning sickness.
Oh my, oh oh. Now have I told you about the Craig bonus. I think I have.
My name, my baby Craig. Yeah. I do like Harper. I like Harper a lot.
I'll tell you what some of my I think about three and nothing to do with me, of course, But three or four of my friends have a guy who used to work for me, Sam Wood, who now is a megastar. Sam he was the bachelor, and he owns a company called twenty eight. And he's got a little girl called Harper. So of course, Prince and Brad and Carly, friends of mine who I'm the fit shop, they've got a little girl called Harper. It's funny how there's got nothing to do with your area of expertise or mine,
But fuck it, isn't it funny? Isn't it funny how names go through kind of waves like where that's up and about you know, three or four or five or six years, and then it disappears.
Well, what I'd really like is and this is a little bit tapp into the psychology, but I give my daughter a name, and we know it's a girl. We found out the other week. They're very exciting. I'd like to give her, like a unisex name that's not obviously a girl's name, because I want her to do her best in life and reach her best potential. And I don't know, Craig, if you can relate to this, probably not.
But as a woman, I have found that having the name Hannah on reports or having a female name has been met with, you know, people who perhaps have not taken me as seriously had my name been a man's name. Perhaps that that what I've written to them may have been received a little better or a little you know, with a bit more acceptance with who am I?
What do I know? I just I wonder sometimes if my life.
Would have been a little easier if I had a unisex name.
Wow, So if we could, if we could magic it into existence? What what well have you have you narrowed down a list be your daughter? Of course you might not even close.
It's so hard to pick a name because it's like for the rest of her life she'll she'll have this.
Name, and I want her to do well in life.
Like I'm really I feel like I've joined this club finally where I'm like finally started to get you know, the parents who like they've had a child, they get certain things that I've done before I fell pregnant, and now I'm finally understanding the pressure of certain things, like oh, picking her name is actually really difficult. Yeah, surprisingly had.
Now his his fun fact, I've got a friend. His name is Hannah.
Oh really like Hannah, like like Hannah.
Hannah, same as you h a n n ah, there you go.
How is I wonder how he's found that. Does he like having a name that sort of uni set?
I think? So he actually owns a restaurant in Brighton, Yeah, which is the next town long And and he's big dude, like big strong, not that it matters, but big, large, strong, alpha male called Hannah. So yeah, I wonder if when he signs things that people assume that he's I guess they would. I guess they would.
Well, I actually I read about this study where you know, a male and female, like just case anecdote or really case study of where they swapped names in an organization and the gentleman wrote emails with her name at the bottom, and the woman wrote emails with his name at the bottom, and then he was doing the same things he'd always done with his sales and with his working and then all of a sudden, after swapping names, he started having
difficulties with client interactions, people questioning him, people making his life hard, questioning his ability to give them the right advice, just just making the whole process a lot harder. And he realized the only thing that had changed was that he was signing off with his colleagues, you know, a female colleagues name instead of his own name, Whereas she had the opposite effect of people being easier to work with, process going much smoother, people accepting her opinion and her advice.
So it was just kind of this really initial, very brief study, but it really captured me. So I couldn't help. But wonder, you know, how much impact does it have on our I suppose, our ability to work with others depending on how they perceive you or they've even met you.
I wonder if that's that's really interesting, by the way, I wonder if that's consistent across industries, Like I wonder if some industries, in some industries or professions, women are held in higher esteem, more regard than men. I don't know.
I mean, I mean, i'd like to think, so I'm in a female dominated industry, and I know there's a lot of female dominated industries like nursing and teaching and allied health for occupational therapy spee pathology flips around with physiotherapy. But interestingly, even in the female dominated industries, it is always the case that it's male dominated when it comes to the upper echelons within that industry, so they're more
executive level. Suddenly flips around again, even though it's female dominated, and all of a sudden, it's male dominated in the executive and senior roles. So, you know, I'd like to say, maybe it's different, but it hasn't necessarily been my experience that you know. I hope that my daughter would grow up in a world where her gender didn't matter and that her expertise was taken to be the most important, most important part of her Well, I.
Mean that, you know, it is silly that I mean that that's still yes, but you're right, it still happens. It still hopefully it happens less. But does it still happen, you know, gender bias and all the different biases. Of course, I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you today. I wanted to talk a little bit. Today. Won't be a long one because you're a little bit under the weather. Oh by the way, by the way, did you this? I don't know if I'm meant to ask this on air?
Will will like was the baby girl? Was she intended? Or was this a happy?
Oh god, that's a great question. Don't feel to this out. This is the best question. So she was a beautiful a little bit of both. So we we actually because I'm a little bit older and most this is we're getting into gender stuff a lot this episode, Craig, But most of my last ten years have been told I'll be well, you should be careful, you better get onto it,
you better hurry up. You're not gonna be able to get pregnant, Like heaps and heaps of pressure increasingly of people saying, you know, like you need to think about being able to get pregnant, and what are you going to do if you can or you can't, et cetera. And freezing my eggs, like so much pressure to go check my fertility and freeze my eggs and see if my ovaries are working, et.
Cetera, et cetera.
And I've been pretty laid back and cool about the whole thing until more recent years where it did get to me and I started to get a little scared of my fertility being good enough, and also the fear that if something did happen and I couldn't fall pregnant, that it would somehow be my faults because I didn't I was selfish, and I didn't have children quickly enough and now you can't have children like this, this idea that it would have been my fault, and I don't know.
Maybe that's other women can relate to that, maybe they can't relate to that, but that's just how I felt. So my partner and I are in a good place and we're really stable, really happy, just you know, the best life, and we sort of thought, well, if we have children that and we're really excited for that.
So we weren't not trying. I think that's the phrase we use. We weren't not trying. And the first time we were not trying, weren't not trying was when we.
Fell pregnant straight away, So there was there was no issues at all. Shout out to any women out there who were worried about their fertility. You know, it was all okay and everything went okay, and it's been a really smooth booth sailing. So it's something I don't hear a lot about with women and pregnancy. It's often a lot of fear lungering. So I think it's a nice good news story to hear about a woman who waited a little bit longer and she was okay.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's as much as I can understand it, I understand it. And yeah, a lot of friends who have been in a similar boat. I've got a question for you, like when when you find out you're pregnant and you're becoming This is not the episode we plan to do, by the way, everyone, but fuck it, here we are. Do you think like when you when you when you get pregnant for the first time, as you kind of said, like a whole new world opens up.
Now you're thinking about things that you've never had to think about, you know, like, oh my god, there's a lot of pressure choosing a name because what name that could create positive or negative outcomes that could influence people to treat her a certain way, or maybe you know, like I've never really thought about the impact that a name would have in that sense, But it totally makes sense.
But when you broaden that back and you think about you being a mum, do you think about what are some of the things that this is a This is a tough question, right, this is a vulnerable question. But what are some of the things about you that you don't want your daughter to have?
Oh?
My skin like traits, habits thinking like with me, if I had a boy, there'd be so many things that I do that I would not want him to do or be Like, is there anything where you think, fuck, I hope she doesn't turn out like me in this.
Regard, Yes, Craig crippling anxiety. Really hope doesn't inherit that I have, like terrible anxiety. And it's you know, there's all that old cliche like, oh, you became a psychologist because you have your own problems. Maybe maybe that's true, But I grew up with like terrible, terrible anxiety. And my parents had a we had five kids in the family, and like they were not the not the.
Wealthiest of people. In fact, they're pretty poor people.
A lot of my life and my dad was you know, went through a lot of trauma growing up himself, so he you know, he had there was a lot of intergenerational kind of stuff that affected us. And I grew up with like really really quite significant anxiety around you know, just trying to be.
Good enough and people please.
And it took me, you know, really like a good ten years over the last ten years to try to get to the bottom of why do I keep putting myself out? Why do I keep going to the fawn response? You know, we talked a lot about that in our little Your Brain in a Nutshell series like Freeze for Flight,
Freeze and fawn response. And I'm definitely a Freeze and a fawn person, Like I just won't defend myself or I will appease others and give and give and give until the point of total exhaustion and burnout, and all while sitting at home kind of shaking in my boots because I'm so terribly anxious about it all. So that's taken a long time to kind of work on, and I constantly have to work when I was anxious. Just today, like I see a psychologist myself just for like maintenance of mental health.
You know, I've been seeing a.
Psychologist for years, and I think I'm going to practice what you preach. I'm a psychologist and I see a psychologist, so you know, I'm on top of it.
Compared to what I was when I was, you know, in my early twenties.
I don't have panic attacks or you know, as bad episode of anxiety, doesn't control me like it used to. But you know, that's something I think. I think that comes down to how you raise a child. And I want to make sure you know I'm going to raise her in a way where she knows her worth and she knows that it's okay to say no, and it's okay to put herself first, and that that's not selfish, it's actually good practice so that you have enough in the tank to do other things in life. But definitely
I don't. Yeah, that's the thing I don't want her to inherit about my personality, I guess, And I don't want that to impact her in my parenting.
What about you tell me want something? Would you like to have children? Are you going to have children? Can I ask that?
No?
No?
Fuck? Imagine really no another verse. Look if I was younger, maybe, but and and we've I haven't really spoken about this on the show. But I I've been told one thousand times you'd be a good dad. I don't know if I would, though, I don't know if I would. But anyway, it doesn't it doesn't matter that that horses that gate has closed. But in a hypothetical, in a parallel universe, I would, Yeah, I would want my kid to have better self esteem than I had, and two to have
more confidence. I mean my mom and dad. You know, it's hard because one of the things that we do is, you know, we expect our parents to be a certain way, and it's usually like I think, or you should be more like me dad, almost right. But the funny thing is my mum and dad. And I don't want to bore my listeners who've heard this too much, but my mum and dad grew up in the Second World War. They were both born in nineteen thirty nine, so it's
a long time ago. And you know, they weren't raised in a Disney movie, you know, and life was tough and mum was Mum's mum died giving birth to her, so mum never had a mum, right, So you know, back in the days when it wasn't as safe now
as it is now. My dad was one of six boys and eight people in a family, you know, six boys, depression, very little money, you know, and so then I grew up in compared to them, you know, luxury compared to them, So there wasn't but with even though I had everything that I needed practically it, you know, there was probably stuff that, through no real fault of theirs, that I
didn't get emotionally, I guess. And but my mum and dad are really good parents, and for what they knew and what they experienced and what they had to work with, I think they did a really good job. And so but for me, I would like to, you know, be if I was a dad, I guess invest a lot more emotionally than I got, like an emotion you know, yeah, like things are good, like a bike's good, school's good, bed's good, warm, dinner's good, all things that we absolutely need.
And they did it, you know, a great job. But because my dad never really received lots of affection or positive endorsement or you know, reinforcement or you know, like he wasn't great at that despite the fact that he loved me, and he would show that he loved me in other ways, but I think that, you know, I think a bit of that, you know, but it's hard. It's like, I actually, wow, now I'm opening the door.
But I like, I had a revelation one day, and it was it was on a day I was talking to one of my uncles and I realized when I was talking to one of my uncles, my dad's brother, I realized that I hadn't really considered my dad as a child, as a boy. And then I tried to put myself in my dad's childhood because my childhood was a fucking dream compared to his. And then I went, ah, considering what he grew up in, which wasn't horrible, but it wasn't far from horrible. Right then he turned out great.
You know.
But when I look through the Craig window, I can be very critical and very judgmental and all of that. But when I get off my high horse and I start to you know, there's a you know, there's an idea in psychology that you're probably well aware of called false consensus effect. A false consensus effect basically, Yeah, So what it means is we think that other people think like us. Ah, yes, so I think Ron should think like me. And I expect him to because I'm right,
and how can he not think like me? And so you know, and that for me, lucky, I'm doing a PhD in self awareness, essentially self awareness. That for me was a real expansion of my reality in my mind and an expansion of my awareness and humility because I realized I was actually the problem, not my dad. I was expecting my dad to be the way that I wanted, rather than just expecting my dad to be my dad how he is. You know, so like I think that's
one of the ever present challenges. Sorry I'm talking too much today, this is your show, but I really think that, you know, theory of mind, trying to understand and not agree with, not endorse, but just understand other people's mind and their thoughts. It's such a fucking interpersonal superpower.
Yes, yeah, it's funny because I you know, I do a lot of work with autism. I do a lot of work with your adversity. And you know, you're so true like theory of mind, that that word. Hopefully you guys have heard that before. I'm sure you would have talked about it before. But your ability to have empathy, your ability to put yourself in other people's shoes, your ability to not be ego centric anymore it's all that
are being all about me. It becomes I understand there are other people, and there's that shift that happens around five or six, you know, in the developmental stages when you can you can recognize that you're not the only person on the planet and that mommy and Daddy have feelings and other people have feelings as well, and you're right, Like, it seems like such a spectrum of like why do some people get almost like this hyper aware you know,
theory of mind where they're too aware other people, they're hyper sensitive to other people.
And to a crippling degree where they're.
People pleases and they can't stop.
Versus the other end of the spectrum, where people are almost like you know, you could say, I've met some narcissistic people in my time. I've met some people who have clear personality disorder issues, but I've also met people who, you know, they're almost like on a genetic level, they are predisposed to lack the theory of mine because of a you know, an autism for example, And it's like
where do you fall on that spectrum? And sometimes it comes down to or how were you raised and what were you taught was normal not normal?
And what was love?
And did your dad get cuddles when he was younger? Did he talk about his emotions when he was younger? So many, so many men from the generation above you and even your generation too.
Craig would not talk about feelings.
That is not acceptable to talk about feelings, like imagine telling your dad to go and see a psychologist.
Yeah. Yeah. You know what's interesting about my audience is that it's seventy percent women. And it's not like, yeah, it's it's and when I run workshops, like public workshops, it's even more. It's sometimes it's like I did a last time I did a workshop at Deacon University in Melbourne. We had six hundred and seventy people, and I would say, I would say there were six hundred and twenty women. Wow,
yeah yeah in the rooms. Yeah yeah. And not because I mean, which is interesting, because it's not like, you know, I'm talking about in inverted commas, women's issues, or I'm Brad Pitt or I'm I think. It's just the fact that I love talking about the human experience and I love opening all the doors and I'm happy to be vulnerable and talk about my numerous flaws and you know, and I and for whatever reason, I'm comfortable in that. In fact, I kind of almost thrive in that because
it's just like to me, because that's just real. And some guys, uh are like, I'm getting more and more men, which is great talking about feelings and talking about shame and talking about you know, acknowledging shit that is just part of who we are, rather than going not not not don't want to talk about it, but yeah, it's it's a really interesting that whole idea of trying to understand someone else's version of right now without judging it, without saying, oh it's your right or you're wrong or
you know, but just that not so much putting a value on it, but just having, you know, that whole idea of seek first to understand and then to be understood.
Yeah, yeah, I wonder why it is that? I mean, do you have any theories about when I could? I can postulate, but do.
You, as a man, have any theories about why is it?
Because I see this time and time and time again with mental health and women in abundance who are seeking assistance guidance improvement, you know, journey to greater self awareness
and greater mental health. And there's this almost like as actually as you describe this huge seventy percent split with the uptake of men doing the equivalent, Like, why is it that they struggle to engage with mental health even though this clear recognition that men's mental health is almost more severely affected than women's with suicide rates and things.
Like that, Why are men not engaging?
Whye, Well, there's an overarching reason that we can then break down, and the overarching reason is fear, right, Like, they don't because they're scared, and you go, scared of what, Scared of looking weak, scared scared of being embarrassed, scared of not belonging to the tribe, the bloke tribe. Yeah, you know, like I can't say who, but I do work with a few groups and in some groups that it wouldn't be too hard to figure out what I'm talking about. You do not want to put your hand
up for mental health. And you know what I'm saying, there are some groups that you because if you admit that you have mental health issues in some groups, that's actually going to hurt your career. So While some organizations are outwardly going, oh, we're all about the mental health of our the practical reality behind the curtain is that if you actually do say I need help, I've got mental health issues in some places, that's going to put
the brakes on your advancement of your career. Right. So, I think the overarching answer is they're scared of stuff, and the stuff is I don't want my career to come to a grinding halt. I don't want people to think I'm weak. I don't want to be embarrassed. I don't want to be ejected from my grid. Yeah, but the irony is it's actually like if you do get ejected from that group, will fuck that group? Like that's not the group you want to be in. I like, I love hugging men. I love sitting with a man
who's crying. I love vulnerability because it's fucking true, it's all there anyway. All we're doing is, all we're doing is opening the door. Like all of the guys who never cry, who never talk about their feelings, who never and I'm not being critical of them, but it's not that they don't have emotions, it's just that they won't open that door because there's a social penalty for that.
Yeah, perceive social penalty, yes, But I also wonder, like how many women who'd be listening who wouldn't love, you know, absolutely jump with the chance for their partner or their brother or their best mate or whatever, whoever it was, to share something deeper with them and to explore something deep.
And I often have male friends who, funnily enough, it's interesting you mentioned like in certain spheres of their life, men not being able to share how they're going emotionally or say anything about having an emotional struggle because god forbid, you know, they're a doctor or a policeman or a fireman or whatever, and they get fired as a result of it.
But in higacy and behind closed doors.
In terms of what they then do with themselves, like my mental health journey, just my own perspective has all been personal, Like I go and see.
A psychologist private aside, not to do with work.
That's my own self journey into becoming a better version of Hannah. But what are the men do in their private life like to then improve how they're going? And is infiltrating the private life as well? Like can men talk to other men or other women in the at least in their private life, or are they just bottling it up everywhere?
I don't know. Tell me, Craig, you're around.
Well, the answer is yes, they can, but maybe even the better question is do they? And the answer is sometimes some men sometimes. Look it is it is getting better, but it is slower than I would like it to be. But you know, it's like this, This is a very personal story. But my training partner Mark, lovingly known as the Crab. I don't know if you know this story, but four and a half years ago we were training at the gym and he he had a cardiac arrest.
Oh god, you're dead, absolutely dead for seventeen minutes, right, And so I worked on him and all of that, and fortunately he came back seventeen minutes later. But it's funny when you have this experience and he's an alpha male, he's an ex pro body, he's fucking massive. He's you know, like, if you're ever going to get stuck on an island, get stuck with him. He'll build you a city by Tuesday. Right. I'm about as handy as an ashtray on a motorbike.
I'm fucking shit, right, he's a many man man, right, but we had this. It doesn't get much more intimate than you giving one of your best friend's mouth to mouth CPR and keeping him alive until the ambos come.
Right.
Well, that just opened the door and hopefully people don't have to go that through that for the door to open. But for me, well one where you know, we're still you know, we just talk shit and hang out. We're mates and we train every day. But it was interesting for me because in that moment where I'm on the gym, he's on his back dead. When he fell, he bit through his tongue, so there's blood coming out of his mouth. I won't give you too much more of a description,
but I could, and it's not pretty. But in that moment where I'm trying to save my friend's life and my mouth's on his mouth and there's blood everywhere, and it's fucking you know, there's nothing in me going, oh what does this look like? Oh my god? You know, there's none of that bullshit present, all of that, all of that, you know, Oh this is not cool on my ego? Oh fuck, what would people think if they saw that? Like it all vanishes, it's all fucking rubbish, right,
And I don't know. And I've had a few things, like a few like some of my best friends have died, you know. I had a really good friend of mine die about four months ago, you know, and you know, left behind two young children. And it's like when you go through and I'm on no level of victim. I'm blessed. My life is amazing. There's no self pity here. But when you go through that with other people, for me anyway,
I'm like, I don't have time for me. I do not person I have time for all the bullshit, Like if I love you, you'll know if you might like. My best mate in the world is Vin. We talk on the phone. Every time we talk, we tell each other we love each other every time. And he's a man's man. He's an electrician. He's a blokey bloke. Every time I tell him I love him. Every time I hug him because I don't know what the future holds,
and I don't want to go fuck. I wish I had oh if only I had a It's just I don't want to let my bullshit get in the way. And I think us men and I'm generalizing, not all men but some men sometimes let their bullshit get in the way when they actually love deeply, they love their mates, you know, And I just think, and they love their family and they let you know, and I just think that we don't need to be walking around every eight
minutes telling everyone that. But I just think it's you know, it's slowly shifting, but it'd be good if there was a little bit of a hurry on.
And it's ironic.
Actually, the irony is like it's painful at times and laughable at other times, but the irony of the ultimate you know that from what I can guess, and I'm not a man, so I am just guessing. But like this, this hierarchy, this pyramid, this elite at the top, what you're aiming for of being the perfect guy, the perfect man, you know, and the perfect man's loyal, and the perfect man is honorable, and the perfect man has integrity, and he's there for you, and he's never down, he's never upset.
He does everything because he's the perfect man.
And the irony of that model is to actually be that guy who is there for people, loyal, has integrity, who's not bothered, who for the most part has good you know, stable mental health and healthy relationships with other
people is not through that pathway. It's actually through the pathway that often gets pushed away, which is acknowledging feelings, talking about feelings, feeling validated that you've got those feel and normalized for having those very human emotions, and then processing them so that you can then be a great friend and a great partner, and a great lover and a great brother and whatever else you.
Want to be.
But it's so ironic to me that the way we're walking towards that ultimate goal is actually probably the one thing that's pushing you further away from that goal.
Yeah, and I think you know, here's the thing, right, is that compassion and humility and vulnerability can coexist with whatever the fuck being a man means. You know. It's like, if I'm out and about and someone threatens a friend of mine, I'm like, I will do what I need to do to protect my friend. Do you know what I mean? I don't want to be in a fight. I don't want to confront it. But at the same time, being vulnerable and compassionate doesn't mean you're weak, doesn't mean
that you're letting people dominate you. You know, there's still a time, there's a you know, there's a time for you know, control aggression. Hopefully not often, but if somebody, you know, I went into the city, it was probably ten years ago now, and this just random guy grabbed my stretch, stepped in front of us and grabs my mum on the arm. Like my mom at the time was seventy four, right. Oh, needless to say, he wished he hadn't done that, and he was just some stranger
that he wanted, you know, and I didn't. I'm just like, that's not okay, that's not you know. I'm like and I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? And you know, but so but without being the alpha male, there's there's a time to go, hey, that that behavior is unacceptable. I need to protect someone. I hope that I never get in an altercation ever again in my life. I don't want to do that. But at the same time, we can't just grab my mother. There's a consequence for that.
That's not okay, you know. But at the same time, you know, do I want to hurt anyone? Of course not do. I understand that that guy's probably got mental health issues, of course, so you know, but at the same time we you know, there's this there's this duality of still being able to be a strong male or female, strong when required, mildly terrifying. My mum's fucking terrifying at times. For a woman that's about three foot tall, she's terrifying,
you know. But also that can coexist with kindness and compassion and empathy and awareness. You know, it doesn't have to be one or the other.
That's so interesting actually, just as a reflection, and hopefully you don't mind me making this reflection, but it's so interesting, you know, when we tapped into the part of the conversation where we really talked about vulnerability and you know, this being the perfect guy, the perfect man, and then vulnerability and then the memory that came up for you. Because so for me, I was talking in my sphere and my mind, my conceptualization as a woman.
I was thinking about mental health and talking about feelings and therapy, and it didn't even cross my mind, not for a second, did the need for sometimes being assertive and aggressive and protecting your loved ones.
That didn't even come into my head at all, not even to my conceptualization at all. That occurred to me and but for you that when we tapped into vulnerability, a memory that came up for you was protecting your mother from an assault. And I just feel like I need to report and reflect on that that those two comments about being vulnerable was then so intrinsically tired with a memory of the time you had to defend your mum.
Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, like hit the practical reality two right, Like life's not a theory, Life's not a podcast with Hannah and Craig, Like life's a messy shitfest. And you know, I'll give you another story. One day, about three years ago, I live on a main street and I heard this this child screaming and crying. I'm like, oh my god. And I went outside and all I saw was a man, my size man hitting a child.
Oh gosh wow.
I went fucking nuts. And then he turned to me and he goes, it's my it's my kid, right, And I'm like, I'm not going to stand there while you the child was four or five. I'm not going to just let you. I don't care whose child it is. I'm not going to stand by while you assault a child. I said, if you hit if you hit him once more, I will fucking knock you out?
Wow?
What? And he stopped. And I don't want to do that. And I'm not trying to sound anything, but there's something in me that Look, there are times, unfortunately the practical reality of the human experiences, sometimes you need to intervene. Hopefully it's hardly ever. And of course I didn't hit him, and of course I didn't want to hit him, but if he had kept hurting that child, I would have hurt him. Yeah, And you go, trust me when that's happening.
You want somebody with some controlled aggression. You want somebody who will get in the way. There was a guy called Sir Edmund Burke, and he said, all that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men slash women to do nothing.
That's so, you know, that's actually brought a memory up for me, that's brought which I'm going to share. It's a bit of a vulnerable memory, but I remember seeing that. I remember seeing you know. It was years ago and I was standing in Newtown in Melbourne, in Sydney, and I was waiting to go into an appointment. I was, funnily enough, I was going to get some singing bowl singing bowl sound therapy, which is amazing.
We'll talk about it another day.
But I was waiting outside to go into this like this kind of therapeutic, lovely spiritual session, sitting on the street, and you know, you just people watch, observe people like Sticky Beacon. And I was watching this couple in a car right beside me, and they were having a bit of a heated discussion, and then I watched the partner, the man in the car, strike the woman like he hit her.
He hit her in the face.
And then I stopped talking and looked down and then.
You know, and then you know what he did? Can you be emotional talking about it? He looked up at me and he made eye contact and he saw that I had seen it, and he smiled.
He's smart.
He smiled because he knew because I stood there and I was like, oh my god, I can't believe what he's just done. And so many thoughts popped in my head, like go to the car, open the door, pull her out, like call the police, like what do you do? And he just like he just smiled at me because he knew. There's nothing you can do, sweetheart. Yea, he was so right, because he's this big massive guy on this tiny little thing.
He's in a car about to drive off, and I'm sitting there on the side of the road, like what am I going to do? How do I protect this woman? And in my mind I was like, get out of the car, get out of the car.
And she stayed in the car and I stood there like just kind of paralyzed and frozen for another good five minutes after they drove off, going what should I do?
Should I call someone? Will they believe me? If I call the police? Will they listen?
You know?
And it was a horrible it was a horrible situation where I'm really ashamed to say I did nothing.
I didn't do anything because I didn't, you know what I mean.
It was it was at and at the time I was like, yeah, if I was a strong man, maybe I would have chosen a different path there.
And I still I still it was years ago. I still think about that woman and wonder where is she now?
Mhmm. You don't have to feel ashamed. I mean for you to put your you would have then it depending on I mean, probably that guy's a psychopath. Probably like if he's belting a woman then smiling at you, he's a psychopath. Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, these are just that's you know, it's like, that's what I said. Life's not a conversation with you mean, it's not a theory, it's not I mean, how many how many women have been on the end of that kind of horrendous treatment
And this is this is what I'm saying. You know, sometimes all that's necessary for evil to triumph is for well, the original saying is for good men to do nothing. And it's like, I fucking you know when you tell me that story, that makes me mad, not mad that you didn't do anything, but just like and I hate it. I hate it that some evil, fucking pricks do that. And and but there is a that's why, you know, it's like I hate war, right, but we need an army,
we need a defense force. Like what like literally, what do they do? Will they? You know, depending on the context, sometimes we send people overseas to kill people. I mean like it's it's like in a perfect world that we don't have but if we did perfect world, there'd be
none of that. But that ain't where we live. And while we don't want to be negative, we do want to be practical and that the truth is, like, especially right now in Melbourne and nearly every night on the news, there are stories of home invasions where people are, you know, people older people are being robbed, bashed, threatened, periodically killed. You know that recently in Sydney, that horrible event in
the shopping center. You know, I mean, like, let's hope that that doesn't happen again, but we all know that that is a version of that is going to happen again. Not necessarily that same as that or similar, but like, this is it. We want to be positive, we want to be loving, we want to be empathetic, but we also need to be fucking prepared and we also need to be practical and realistic.
You know.
And I say this stuff to people all of the time. You know, it's like, don't assume, don't assume it's going to be okay. Don't also assume it's going to be not okay. But you know, yeah, it's I don't know how we got to this place, but.
No, I think it's like I'm having a daughter myself, and I think about these things now where I go give me I'm that's saying like punching up like and they say it with jokes and humor, like don't punch, don't punch down, you know, but it's okay for you punch across or punch up, like I think I see that with like mental health and awareness like you. You know, women can't be expected to educate men like we can't.
We can't.
It's like the dangers for us to for me to say that's not okay, that's not okay for you to do that, the risk of me very real risk of me being physically assaulted as a result of trying to intervene. But then, you know, men teaching other men. You know, don't speak to her like that, don't don't make jokes about her like that, don't treat her like that, don't talk about her like that, or you know, make it's okay to talk about your feelings.
It's okay to talk about you.
Know, don't call him that, don't call him a pansy for talking about it, like men teaching other men, because you are physically stronger, and you are you do have that, you know, physical ability to kind of be on the same level as a fellow, as a mate and say to him when something's not okay and when something is okay, with not no fear, because there's definitely always going to be fear, but certainly less fear than perhaps a woman would or a child would standing up to a male
to say that wasn't okay. I think that's why you know, you're saying of what you were talking about with the saying of when good men stand and do nothing, that to me, I see, Yeah, good men need to stand up to other men to help educate them about better mental health and better treatment of everyone.
And that to me is where I can see the future.
When men teach other men, that's when things will start to change because I think they'll listen.
Yeah, well hopefully who knows, Hopefully one person will hear this that needed to hear it, and maybe there'll be a you know. I also I also want to say that not all men are bad men.
Of course not.
There are a lot of great men. I don't put myself in the great men category. But you know, not every not every man is a bad man. Not every man is doing bad things, not every man is violent. Not every man, you know.
So.
We need to acknowledge what's going on. But we don't want to throw all men under the bus.
Because I feel bad to those good men as well, because I do wonder if it's a little bit like, you know, eighty percent of the work is being done by twenty percent of the of the army sort of you know, like too much for the individuals like yourself to be working, you know, on like mental health and supporting men.
And it's you know, one voice among millions of other men. Like it's it's hard. It's so hard.
It's that collective effort that's needed so that not one person has to constantly be the one voice that stands up.
It's so much voices.
I think. Also, you know, like I feel like I have a bit of a responsibility sometimes because I have a platform and I'm a bloke to go, hey, blokes, let's let's talk about our stuff. Let's be honest and raw and all of those things. But also at times sometimes I've said to lots of men over the years, you know, that's not okay, Like that thing that you're
doing not okay, not okay, it's not okay. And also you know, even for myself, not in not in terms of like you know, hurting people, but you know, just like one of the challenges I think if we're really serious about not only helping others, but really helping ourselves. Right, I have to acknowledge that I fuck up. I have to acknowledge that I've got an ego. I have to acknowledge that I make bad decisions, and I need to work on me because I'm definitely not the high watermark
for fucking human behavior. And so it's it's I think we can all be works in progress as well as helping others. Like if I wait until I've got all my shit together before I ever do a podcast or ever help anyone, or same with you, before you ever treat anyone or work with any patients. If you wait till you've got all your shit together, you're never going to see anyone, you know, because we're all simultaneously students and teachers.
Yeah, you know.
Well, hopefully we've helped somebody a little bit today. And this actually turned out to be a very important conversation. And so thank you for Thank you for being vulnerable and real and honest, and I love that. I think there's some synergy between our perspectives and you helped me understand stuff better. And maybe my own site has been helpful as well. I'm not sure but yeah, it's a really important conversation. I'm glad we had it me.
Too, and I'll quickly say for anyone if it's brought up anything for you guys, to definitely get in touch with Lifeline.
On thirteen eleven fourteen, you can reach out to Headspace.
We'll be on blue.
There are lots of amazing resources for people with you know, who are going through any kind of mental health difficulties. So we're like on Craigstrom, speak on your behalf, but we really highly encourage you to reach out and seek some support.
If any of this has brought anything up for you today.
Yeah, definitely. Well say goodbye a fair but as always to you and little Craiggina get Craig Gina. Look, I'm okay with either a.
Little halfer a little halfer.
Thanks Uncle Craig, and thanks for being chat. Thanks guys for listening.