Welcome to the WSAVA podcast. This episode asks what it really means to create healthy dog and cat breeds, balancing tradition, science and responsibility to future generations. As you listen, think about how you advise a breeder aiming to make better choices for their animals. Our host, Yaiza Gomez Mejias speaks first with Helle Friis Proschowsky and later with Lucy Hoile. Let's begin.
So in our email exchange, prior to this recording, you mentioned that the article you've recently co-wrote and published, A new future for dog breeding, is a horizon topic paper. Could you explain what a horizon paper is and share some key messages in the article?
It was a paper that I wrote together with colleagues from my institution in Denmark, but also people from abroad like Dan O'Neill and James Serpell, Brenda Bonnett and Peter Sandøe, who is the leader of this center for companion animal welfare. It's a specific article type that the journal animal welfare is using and of course there are review articles and original research, but this horizon topic, it's more of a discussion paper. It presents new ways of considering a topic.
When you say a horizon topic, it's something that we see as a new important research area. So it's a way of actually also trying to look into the future. It actually became quite a long article because we started to give an overview of the background for the current situation within dog breeding and the health issues that we are facing. We wrote about domestication and the formation of the different dog types, which is different than our modern understanding of breeds.
And then we wanted to describe some of the dynamics that led to inherited diseases in pedigree dog populations. So we wrote about the results of breeding in closed populations, the use of inbreeding to make the breeds uniform and the use of popular science. And then there's the whole section about extreme confirmation, exaggerated breed characteristics.
And then what we wanted to do was also different solutions used to work against these problems and some of them is that we should just abandon the whole concept of breed. Some people argue that these designer breeds are free from the inherited diseases. We go through the literature and there was not any solid evidence that these designer breeds were healthier than pedigree dogs.
We defended the concept of breed saying that there are benefits from keeping different types of dogs because it's important for future dog owners to know what they buy. How much time can you spend on exercising, grooming, washing, or taking care of the dog? So it may help anticipate welfare problems and prevent them. Yeah, especially if there's a mismatch between the needs of the dog and the expectation of the owner, then it's very unhappy situation for both.
Of course, you should always look at the individual dog, but still some dogs need more exercise than others. There's an urgent need to change dynamics within the dog breeding community, prioritizing health and moving away from exaggerated features because they are harmful to many dogs, and it's a widespread responsibility because. As it is now, a lot of the responsibilities are put upon the organized kennel clubs or the FCI, the international organization.
But in many countries there are also people who produce a lot of puppies for family dogs and they have an equal responsibility to produce healthy dogs. Not only when it comes to genetics but also when it comes to socialization and the welfare of the bitches used for breeding. Some countries, they have taken legislation into use to try and provide better health for dogs. Actually, in Denmark, the new legislation came into force 1st of July this summer.
So it's brand new and according to this legislation, some specific dog types or breeds go through health screening, hips and elbows, examination of the heart and so on. And this new legislation is covering all people who want to breed a litter. It's not commercial breeders or registered breeders, every person who breeds a litter has to apply to these rules.
So if my neighbor has a Labrador and he decides that this Labrador should have a litter, then she has to have this Labrador x-rayed for hip dysplasia, for instance. So it's gonna be very exciting. There's a huge communication task to get this information out there. But yeah, we will see how it actually will benefit the dog breeding in the long run, but I think it has some very promising aspects. That's really really interesting. How do they approach for breedings tests?
Is there a test specifically for every breed, or is it regardless of the breed? There's a list of breeds, if we take hip dysplasia, there is a list that these breeds should have a specific hip score before they are allowed for breeding. If you have crosses with at least 50% of a specific breed, it's mandatory for them to have hip screening. And then there are some tests, for instance, the heart screening for the Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.
They have to go through a screening for the specific heart disease that they are suffering from. So that's only one test for one breed, and that's the only breed who has a mandatory examination of the heart. And so far you've mentioned phenotypical traits that can be X-rayed or scanned. Are genetic tests included in those pre-breeding screening? It, it's not included in the legislation.
If you look at the Danish Kennel Club, they have some breeding rules for specific breeds and their genetic tests are included, but it's not part of this legislation. What's your view on that? Would it be more efficient? Would it be another barrier because of what it entails from a financial point of view, or would it be good? Yeah, it's a difficult question because some of the genetic tests, they test for diseases that are relatively widespread in the population.
Other tests are very breed specific and maybe more relevant to use within a pedigree population where you know what you've got and specifically that this breed is really this breed, but if you can imagine that a very solid genetic test will be developed for the MMVD heart problem in the Cavalier, it might change from scanning to DNA test.
But I think we need some really solid evidence that the DNA test is doing a better job in this specific area because in other areas, if you look at the progressive retinal atrophy in some breeds, the Labrador, for instance, you have the PRCD and you have a genetic test and it's possible to identify the carriers and that's a good thing. But it works very well in, in a pedigree population. But it might be more difficult to use as part of a legislation.
It's very interesting when we talk about this future, I think it's a very interesting and relevant topic also for the whole veterinary profession because it's just developing so fast, new tests and new ways of looking at things. And I understand as a general practitioner maybe to hang onto all these new things because genetics is not the only area where things are developing. It's developing all over the place.
So I think it's a huge task also for the veterinarians and for instance, when this new legislation is coming into force in Denmark, they will probably be approached by breeders or others saying, I want to breed this dog, what should I do to fulfill the legislation?
Actually, this spring I had a veterinary masters student that made her final thesis as a questionnaire study among Danish small animal practitioners looking at their role with regards to genetic counselors or breeding consultants, because it's not previously been a very big part of the small animal profession. I think that many general practitioners, when they have a dog in front of them, they are very focused on this individual dog, and that's logical.
But if you think about breeding, that individual is part of a population and if this animal is used for breeding, it might be a benefit for the population as a whole, but it might also be the contrary. So we were interested in how they were looking at this.
Most of the veterinarians that answered said that they really wanted to be asked, they wished that, that the breeders had come to them and asked them because often they were involved when the meeting had already taken place or the puppies were born with defects or whatever, and they really, they would like to be used as counselors. But on the other hand, many of them, they actually expressed that they were not quite confident that they had the competencies to perform this counseling.
Especially when we were talking about DNA tests, how to interpret the results of DNA test. Most of them said that DNA testing was something that they did when the clients or the breeders requested it, they came and said, I want to have a blood sample or cheek swab for this test. And then they said, yes, we will do that. But they were not quite confident to go into a discussion and say, is this the right DNA test? Should we do something else?
So they really wanted to get involved, but they also had a great interest in some continuing education on this topic. And I think that's something we will approach the Danish Veterinary Association about and say, could we try to set up course because they were quite interested.
And I also think actually that some of them also mentioned that it could be a good thing as professionals, you have to get paid for the services you offer, and they actually were very positive about providing a service that was genetic counseling. So you could actually, as a breeder said, I want to make an appointment with my veterinarian. I want them to go through my animal from nose to tail and say, is this a good breeding animal? Which kind of tests physical or DNA should be performed?
How could we actually be as sure as one can be that this is a good breeding animal? So if they could offer this as a service, because it was usually some conversation that just came in on the side, it was not something that they really had the time to go into details with and I think that was interesting as well that the veterinarians expressed their interest in this field.
I think that proves that's very promising because the veterinarians have the possibility to have an impact on the future for dogs, for dog welfare, and in this aspect of breeding, they have the competencies.
I can't see anyone else who could be better skilled to evaluate the health of an animal, but of course they have to be confident also if they discourage breeding from an animal, because communication is a very big part of the veterinary profession and you need to communicate this in a good way to a breeder standing there with a dog that they think is a very good dog, and then the veterinarians say theres this and this, this is the reason why I would not recommend this dog to be bred from.
I wanted to ask you something about the new legal implementation. How does it get enforced? We've been involved in the preparation of this legislation, both me and my colleagues from the center, and also people from the Danish Kennel Club and from the Animal Welfare Denmark, different welfare organizations. And of course we discussed it with the authorities. How could you be sure that the breeders do what they must do?
And they said that all kinds of legislation, it's difficult to be sure that everyone is doing the right thing, but it sets a direction. And of course you could say that you could have some checks. It's not something that the breeders have to register the results in a database where the authorities go in and check. It's a process. There is no obligation. The veterinarians should not call the authorities and say, we have someone here who broke the law.
And that was very important for the veterinarians because they have this relationship with their clients and a confident relationship. So that was important for the veterinarians that they were not forced to do that, but, on the other hand, the authorities said that they hope the veterinarians would say, okay, you should have done this and this, but remember, if you are going to have another litter, remember to do this. So right now, it's a matter of trust.
It's certainly also a question that the puppy buyers, they should be asking for these certificates or proof. For the Pedigree dogs, it's easy because within the Danish Kennel Club, for instance, they have a database, dog web, where all results go in, they're publicly available and you can see what are the hip status, for instance, for the parents of this litter of Labrador Retrievers, but of course in the remaining population we don't have this.
Maybe there is some work in progress on making a database. Actually, the Danish Kennel Club has offered to make a parallel database. That's great. The fact that they're considering registers for none pure bred dogs as well. Yeah. Yeah. That's brilliant.
Yeah. But, but of course people need to know that it's there and there again, also, the veterinarians have a very important role in communicating because all the systems, when we talk about evaluation of hip x-rays, for instance, there is a specific way of doing this and there are some approved scrutinizers and things like that for the pedigree population, but it's much less regulated when we are outside the pedigree population.
So, I think it's a very good thing that the new legislation covers everyone because I think that would be of benefit for the whole population. It's part of the new Danish legislation also that brachycephalic breeds, they have this BOAS testing.
This exercise test that is developed by Jane Ladlow in Cambridge where a veterinarian, specially educated or certified veterinarian, they look at the dog and then they perform a three minute exercise test and the veterinarian make a auscultation of the lungs and score the breathing before and after. And they have to have a score of zero or one to two before they can be used for breeding. And that's the Pug and the English Bulldog and the French bulldog.
So these three breeds have mandatory BOAS testing from 1st of July. Yeah, it is interesting. So based on your extensive experience in this field, what type of actions do you think veterinary institutions, like regulatory bodies or professional associations or academic institutions, could start to empower veterinary professionals to unify their voices and advocate for better welfare around breeding?
That's a very good question because I think that, at least the results from the questionnaire study I mentioned, showed that the veterinarians, they are interested in getting some education and increase their competencies in this area, and I think that the veterinary organizations is a relevant place to offer this kind of continuing education. And we have also considered that there are a lot of other specialties.
There is the European College of Eye Diseases, or there are veterinarians working in specific areas, but compared to human medicine, we don't have a clinical genetics college or specific education to be a genetic counselor or a person who's giving advice regarding genetic diseases. And maybe it would be interesting to actually have some kind of a diplomat in clinical genetics or master of clinical genetics. Maybe it would be interesting to, to develop that.
We've been discussing this back and forth where I work and the other thing is also to look at the veterinary education to see, at the curriculum we have the day one competencies document from different vet schools and see how could we actually increase the knowledge that the vet students have when they graduate within the field of genetics.
And then of course, there is this possibility to educate the general practitioners, and I think it would be nice like an organization like the WSAVA, that they could actually go forward within this. We work together in the Hereditary Disease Committee trying to define what are the competencies that are needed for a general practitioner to meet the demands for the future or to increase the welfare of dogs when it comes to breeding. I think that would be very interesting.
And when the WSAVA Congress was held in Copenhagen, there was this document that was a focus on healthy breeding and we had a lot of talks about brachycephalic dogs afterwards. There was a document that says, vets must dare to speak out. And that was actually, I think it still holds true that vets must dare to speak out. But of course if you speak out, then you need to know that you're actually on solid ground, that your competencies are really high.
After Helle Friis Proschowsky, Yaiza is joined by Lucy Hoile for the second part of this episode. What are your main concerns regarding the ethical and welfare around keeping and breeding hybrid cats? So for me, I think there are two things. It's the welfare of the animal and making sure we are able to meet their needs effectively and to give them a good quality of life in their very unique environment.
So what they're used to in terms of, if we think about the wild side, they're used to a free living environment or a wild environment, especially if we think about the Savannahs who are a domestic cat bred with a serval. So the servals aren't living in domestic homes at all and so it is trying to balance those needs, like the wild side with the domestic home, because cats meet so many different challenges in a normal, regular household.
So it's making sure if it's possible for us to meet those needs and how we can do that and then on the flip side, it's making sure that the person can live happily with that cat as well because the cat will then pose challenges for that person too. So we know cats can be aggressive. Any cat can be aggressive and cat bites can be serious, it can be dangerous. And then with upscaling that so that cat is bigger, that cat is more territorial, so those risks are then bigger as well.
So I'm coming from the place where I want to make sure that cat is happy, but also that person is safe and that person knows what they've got and that knows what they're dealing with. Yeah, it definitely is a really complex issue, but those are the two sort of main risks that I can foresee. It is not just about the physical injuries, isn't it? It is about the fear the people experience when they live with an animal that they're afraid of which obviously modifies the human cat bond.
Yeah. If we're talking about Bengals, they are quite well established by now. So if we are thinking about the breeding process for Bengals it's a little bit easier now because there are plenty of Bengals around. It's not such an early process, so with like Savannahs and the newer breeds, we are still having to breed really early on in the lines. So they've still got a lot of that wild nature about them.
And I hate the thought of the F1s, the very first pairing because if you think about a breeding pair, so you've got serval and you have a domestic cat, a domestic male wouldn't be able to make with a serval female just 'cause of the size difference. So that process must just be absolutely harrowing for that domestic female. Can you imagine your cat just being closed into an enclosure with a serval male who's ready to mate? I can't think of anything more petrifying. The female can get hurt.
So that's a massive welfare concern from my point of view. Then on the flip side of that is, okay, so we could do artificial insemination, we could impregnate the serval in that way so the serval can then birth Savannahhs, but then you are having these kittens raised by the serval, so that removes any scope of being able to socialize them properly and what environment will they be bought into?
Even if a domestic cat is carrying serval kittens, is she gonna be able to carry them successfully because there'll be a bunch bigger than your normal domestic kittens. The mating process itself, I think it's different for Bengals now 'cause you could make two Bengals, but starting off these new breeds and these new lines and getting your really wild cats and mating them to domestics. It's just so unethical from my point of view, and I just can't see how anyone's on board with this.
Is there any regulation? Is anyone actually looking at this stuff or is it just happening? And then we are just feeding into that by buying the kittens and taking them on. It's stressful. It is concerning. Yeah. So in, in your experience, how do hybrid cats behavioral traits affect their welfare in the domestic settings? Which are the most common behavioral problems you find in these breeds in your daily work?
So just in my experience, it seems to be either they're super aggressive and territorial. So for example, if you have quite a confident cat, then some people think that's because they're bigger and because they're full of energy and they've got high energetic needs. Then it leans into rough play because they are bigger, because they like to pounce on things.
For that cat they might start off with feeling like it's play, but if they're pushed too far or it becomes too intense for them, then they move into aggression because they're like, actually I was liking this, but I don't like this anymore. And even if they do like it, their bites and their play can still hurt that person because their claws are involved, their teeth are involved. But then if they are pushed too far, how do they get that person to stop? They will have to bite that bit harder.
They will have to use claws to defend themselves and say, I've had enough of that. So that's definitely one area that I would be very worried about. On the flip side, those cats that are super scared, which is another thing I've seen particularly with Savannahhs, is they're not suited to a home environment.
I know there will be plenty of examples where theres happy Savannahhs, but I have seen Savannahhs that have been raised in cages or in houses that just don't give them all the socialization they need in terms of meeting people, meeting children, getting used to household noises. They then can become very scared because they're not prepared for this. Their socialization window will have closed by then.
So all that learning they did as a kitten happens with the breeder, which sets them up for adult lives. I've seen plenty of Savannahhs or other breeds that are hiding a lot of the time, and they only come out at night and they're not lovely lap cats. If you try to pick them up or if you go to them and you try to interact with them, they're not coming out and attacking people. They just wanna be left alone. It's a massive of welfare concern because they're scared and they're stressed.
So in that scenario, it is easy to overlook their needs and be like, oh, he doesn't come out much, but he's happy, he's fine, when actually he probably isn't happy and he needs a different environment to thrive. And we're such a visual and tactile species, aren't we? Yeah We feel impressed by anything that we perceive through our eyes and we want to touch it.
That's precisely where I think we encountered so many problems with the human cat interactions, that desire to establish like a physical interaction. Yeah definitely and I also think that, why do we want cats? If you want a cat that you can stroke and will sit on your lap and you can pick up and cuddle, there are cats out there that also love that stuff.
If you want to have a Savannah because it's cool and it will look good, then we can't expect that cat to be snugly, and we have to make that distinction between those cats that love all their physical, tactile attention that we want to give, and the cats that just want to live in your house and do their own thing because if we have that distinction, then that's much better for the cat that we have in our lives.
It would be great to have your dating app for cats and potential prospective owners because what I've noticed is that people don't really think very much of what they wanna get from that relationship with their cat. It's a bit complicated sometimes but that would facilitate a lot, the selection of that kitten that you're going to, adult or the adult cat as well. I was looking through how to select the kitten that the part of the iCatCare website this morning.
And I think that's a beautiful tool for people to look at before getting to chose their cat because a lot of clients I find in general practice are not aware of their wrong reasons for getting a Bengal or any purebred cat in general, they just look what they look like and then when they find out health related problems or behavioral problems that they may have, then they're obviously very disappointed but they don't know.
When someone says to me that their cat is showing a problem, and it's a breed specific thing, like for example, a lady had got in touch and said that her Siamese was meowing a lot, and I thought, that's not a behavior problem because that's what they do. They're very vocal, they're very sociable. You definitely need to know what you're getting and even if it's a rescue or a mog and it doesn't have a particular breed, you can still get to know them.
You can ask questions about if it's a breeder, what they've been like up to that point, and if it's a rescue, what they were like with their previous owners, and make sure it's definitely a right match for them both. Yes, the matching process is so important, isn't it?
Yeah. You mentioned before that some behavioral traits have been selected in Bengals, and those later generations of Bengals have a greater tolerance to physical interaction, at least that's my impression working in first opinion practice based on the patients I've seen in the last two decades, have you observed a similar trend, and if so, has this helped to avoid problematic situations in the household where they live or are still some behavioral problems persisting despite this selection?
Yeah, I think I would agree with you. I've definitely seen a similar trend in that, there are plenty of Bengals out there living happy lives and with no problems at all, but I would say they are more sensitive to certain things that other cats are more resilient to. So for example, the Bengals and other hybrids are quite territorial, more so than some of the other breeds like Ragdolls or some of the more easygoing breeds.
For Bengals, if you introduce a new cat to the household or if you have a lot of environmental change, then in my experience they can be more sensitive to that and I think because they are more territorial naturally, then they might lean towards urine marking and other territorial behaviors that are quite tricky for us to deal with. They're trying to establish their territory while trying to share with another cat that they didn't sign up to share with, and they have no choice in that matter.
Also, I would say that generally people tend to keep their Bengals inside because you know, you're worried about their safety and it's risky outside, but because they have so much more energy and they have more requirements for more stimulation, then they can struggle more. There's a mismatch there and they need a lot of stimulation, but they have a very restricted environment then that can manifest in problems too.
So you might have your Bengal that's ambushing your ankles in the night because they want something to chase, or they're scaling the kitchen cupboards because they want to get up high and they want to do all that fun stuff they can do outside, but they're doing all that inside. So that can cause a lot of problems for us and again, in my experience, if your cat's being a little bit difficult and if we don't respond in the right sort of way, so we might punish them for that.
If your cat's attached to your ankle in the night when you're trying to go to the toilet, you'll shake them off or you might shout at them, don't do that, or you might punish them and some people will punish them with water sprays or smacking them and all that horrible stuff that we hate to think anyone actually does but obviously it does happen. Once we manage that problem through these methods, everything gets so much worse.
And then we do have genuine aggression because the cat's now stressed or scared and then this stress can then again manifest in way more urine marking, peeing outside the tray and it can affect their relationships with other people in house and other animals that they're with. Yeah, it might need a cat tree, they might need a catio, something that would resolve the initial issues. How do you feel when you're facing something as difficult to solve as that?
Because you're talking about the importance of the physical environment, but also the importance of the social environment. People nowadays are very used to have a short term solution for a lot of things, especially when it comes to mental wellbeing or physical wellbeing. There's an expectation of drugs helping and changing things very rapidly. What tools do you use to talk to people about this major changes that the lifestyle of their cats need?
Oh, it's really hard, it is and sometimes I think cats are in very difficult situations that many cats will struggle with. Might be a really big multi cat household where there's eight or nine cats trying to get their place in that territory and I do think when I go to someone's house and it's that sort of situation, or it's something that there's almost no hope of resolving it, because sometimes that change isn't doable.
If I'm telling somebody, you need plenty more cat trees, you need to put shelving up on your walls to make sure that your hybrid has somewhere they can climb, they can jump, they can run at top speed if they need, and they can help create that sense of territory while sharing with other animals in the home, then some people will go, I'm not up for that.
I don't want to change my whole house to suit my cats, and I get that as well because not many people want their house to be a cat playground, but this is what your cat needs. So then it's a difficult conversation to be like, these are your options. You make the changes to make it work, or that cat suffers, or that cat finds a different environment where they would be happier, it's really tricky.
Do you work with someone specialized in building catios or a cat playground, or do you direct new clients to particular services with information about designing these kind of spaces? I have places that I recommend, but I don't work with anyone specifically. And even the places I recommend, it doesn't tick all the boxes.
So there's definitely scope there for a company that designs cat things that specifically focuses on the cat's welfare, so there's plenty that look beautiful and they're designed to be in your home but not really look like cat furniture. And then we want to make sure that the cat's needs are met. So just one example is when you find some of the cat trees, their platforms one above the other. So it is hard for a cat to get from one platform to the next 'cause they almost have to jump straight up.
So you want them staggered, like left, left, right, so they can hop up or a series of steps type thing. So something as easy as that and they're definitely really good companies out there but they're not really easy to find. Sometimes it can take a little bit of research. If you had to summarize the characteristics of those physical and social environments for hybrid cats, so what would you highlight?
If I was trying to create the ideal environment for a cat from scratch, for the more wild type hybrids 'cause like I say, some Bengals, they're fine with a little bit of stimulation or a little bit of extra space. But for the more wild ones like the Savannahs and the other breeds, I would be careful on their social needs.
So if you have a cat already then that's gonna be very difficult and I would give thought to whether your existing cat wants to live with a Savannah or a different hybrid cat, because I bet the answer is no. Unless, you know, that they're also a Savannah and then I would also think a cat is a lifelong 20 year commitment. You have to factor that in. So what changes are you gonna go through in that 20 years that are gonna affect your cat? Are you going to move house?
Are you going to have children one day? Will you have people staying? Do you want a dog one day in that 20 years, what challenges will that cat face in that time? Because you must have an awareness of that, and you must be able and open to helping your cat adjust to those things because if you have a hybrid cat and then you bring in another cat later on, they are territorial and they're gonna need a very slow introduction.
You are gonna have to be really careful to mitigate the risks because they're bigger, they're stronger. One fight might be enough to really injure your new cat coming in. In terms of other cats, I would recommend getting a bonded pair of hybrids or two kittens from the same litter 'cause they'll have the best chance of getting on long term. In terms of the actual physical environment, again, we're back to that issue of like they, they need lots of stimulation.
So the outside world provides all that in terms of trees to climb and fences to scale and bugs to chase, and unfortunately, wildlife to chase. It's impossible to give some hybrids that option because particularly with the Savannahs, they will hunt and they'll make a massive dent in the wildlife in the area. If you live in a quite built up area, there's a lot of cats in one space. Any cat will find that difficult, especially hybrids.
They're more likely to fight and the risk of injury is high so I would say that they shouldn't have any free outside access, it's too risky. Plus, what if someone tries to pick them up? What if they walk in somebody else's home? What if someone's mean to them? Even your regular domestic cat has the potential to act aggressively if someone's mean to them, that's perfectly reasonable. So there's just bigger risk because they are bigger and stronger.
So I would say not to have outside access in that way, but a catio, an enclosed garden. If that's not available, then they need high places to scale. You'll have to play with them for a long time to make sure you're using up that energy and that would be play with toys. Do not play with a Savannah or another hybrid with your hands, because if it goes wrong, that's the most severe aggression I ever see. Please don't do that even from day one.
Know what upsets them, if they don't like kids, don't let any kids in. If they don't like loud noises, then make allowances on fireworks night. The stereotype for cats is that their low maintenance, they just live in your house, as long as they've got food and water, they'll be fine. That definitely is not the case for Savannahs and for other hybrids. They need a lot of understanding. They need sensible owners. They need someone to have their back.
If you're gonna take on that commitment of having a hybrid in your home, then for as long as they live, you need to make sure that their needs are met 100% of the time. Because if they're not, where do they go? There's no rescue that's happy to take on a Savannah because it's difficult to meet their needs. I would go as far as to say, I don't think hybrid cats, Bengals aside, but other than that, I don't think we should be breeding them at all.
I would be supporting a ban because it's just so difficult and the risks are so high. If we get it wrong, then there are big risks and consequences for that cat and for the people. So that's my feeling at least. Thanks for joining us on the WSAVA podcast where we are transforming care, one episode at a time. We hope today's discussion was helpful, wherever you are in the world.
You'll find more information and further resources on the topics discussed in the show notes and we look forward to sharing our next conversation with you very soon.