welcome back to the WP minute.
Hey Matt, thank you for having me.
It's been a short, nine ish months, but we were on the podcast back in September, we chatted all about what you were up to back then, WordPress developer, course creator, podcasters still back then, but now you've launched a new podcast called the hopeful workspace. By the way, love the, love the cover art, love the podcast, cover art.
Thank you.
the hopeful workspace. We're going to link everything up in the show notes. So if you want to listen to the podcast, you just click the link right in the show notes. Tell us where you've been, what you've been up to and, and why we got into launching a new podcast under your, under your brand.
Yeah. So, as you know, I was podcasting before, but it was always through other companies. So I basically did the hosting or speaking sometimes the transcripts, but I never created my own podcast from scratch where I had to do like the editing and you know, find the people and do the subject matter. And it's something that I always wanted to do. I didn't see myself doing it specifically on this subject matter, but, this came about because I was laid off.
Since our last chat, again, in January, right after Christmas, and it had been my second layoff in six months. I had been laid off that summer and then I got laid off that winter. And since January, it's now June, it has been I don't know. I don't know if there's one word to describe. It's been a roller coaster of craziness and emotions and just a lot.
just going from, you know, the obvious income to no income, but resources to no resources, health insurance, no health insurance, you know, things like that. And, I of course have gone through all the feelings that you can go through when something like that happens, but what inspired me to actually make this podcast and not just rant on Twitter is that I talked to a lot of people. Friends, family, and people, just colleagues. And it wasn't just me.
everybody knows there are a lot of tech layoffs going on right now. There are a lot of companies going under, there are a lot of people not doing well in the job space. And as I talked to people about my situation and they shared their situations with me, I realized that it was a lot of us, a lot, a lot of lot. And What has been getting me through this, because it has been a very tough time.
if you listen to my podcast, I'll say in my episode, this is the most difficult thing that has ever happened to me in my life, which I'm happy and privileged to say, but I have had a really good support system. I've had a, my family has swooped in to save me more than, A handful of times the last year, my friends, my colleagues, even, former coworkers, they have, you know, been there for me, but the more I talk to people, the more I realize a lot of people don't have that support system.
It's a lot, especially in the United States, we're very individualistic society and that's kind of harming people right now. So I said, instead of getting on a, going on a rant, which, you know, everybody wants to do instead of, you know, burying my feelings, which is not healthy. I thought, why don't I make something that we can come to as a collective and talk about what's going on? What's the state of jobs? What's the state of working right now?
Place a place where people can know they're not alone. So that's where it came from. I was actually inspired. One of my friends was telling me about how he was struggling with his drug drug job loss and he lost his job around the same time as me. I've had, I worked three jobs right now. I've had three, I've had four jobs since my first layoff and I've had three as of now and he hasn't had one. And just hearing stories like that, it crushed me.
And again, I felt I'm just so privileged to have that support system. These colleagues, you know, recommending me places and people willing to step up for me, like, how can I be that for someone else? So that's where the hopeful workspace came from. I want people to know that they have a support system, even if they don't know me and they're not alone.
We talk about the WordPress community being so great, inviting, you know, folks that can connect with each other, you know, we always say, you know, even in competitors and competition and let's say if you are making a plugin and selling a plugin and somebody else is selling the same plugin, we call them frenemies in the space, whatever, right?
There's a, there's a lot of this, what I'll say is maybe this vanity of a welcoming community, and maybe that's even not the right word because it's not false. It's just, where I'm going with this is, there's no central place to say, or at least that I know of, you can just go to and say, I need help. Hey community, I need help. Whether it's finding a partner for a project to work on, or getting a job, or getting educated, on things in WordPress.
I don't know of a central source is truly a help or a beacon to the community. Unless you know of one, or you can share maybe your thoughts and your opinion on when you were going through, you know, losing the job, and then losing the second job, like, where did you turn to in the community to find that help? If at all, did you find it as welcoming as maybe we perceive it to be?
That's a good question. So I'm, I have many thoughts, but I'm with you. I don't think there's one central place. There isn't, and there have been. Places that are have propped up to try to be that one central place, but there isn't I again, privileged to be a connected person in the community. At least I think so. I basically told people after my first layoff, I was, that was the first time I ever got laid off fired in my entire life. I didn't tell anybody for a month or two.
So most people didn't know for a while. but I turned to social media, honestly. And, when social media found out, Because I have a, I don't have a large following, but it's not small. I was able to get some connections through a few people in the WordPress community through social media. And that helped me get my second job.
well, the second layoff job, but, I think if you have a large network, it's easy, but you know, even before I got laid off from any job, I told people like, you know, I'm one person. if there's someone, you know, I know, and they have 200, 300 followers, they've never been to a WordCamp, they've never spoken. They don't know how to really connect with people. They're not in the 5 million slacks that we have. Where do they turn? What do they do?
You know, if I hadn't befriended so many people, I don't think I would have gotten the connections I did. So I don't think there's a central place for people, unfortunately. I, again, I think there are places popping up. Michelle for shit does her weekly Wednesday, job postings, in their jobs all over the world. So I think they're very inclusive and it's a very positive thing. but Michelle has a lot of projects. She can't do it all. So, you know, there that's that, and you mentioned learning.
As someone who works for LinkedIn learning, making WordPress courses, that is a big source of controversy. there's a lot of places people, they just don't feel like they can go to learn, learn WP or, yeah, learn WP is supposed to be that place.
And they do a great job, especially Bostinger and, Courtney Robertson, but again, it's it's only a handful of people We need more people to come in and kind of like elevate and make these spaces or help out with these spaces It can't be the same people doing the same things because they're going to be stretched thin and it won't reach as many people Yeah
when you were, you were laid off last year, I'm trying to forget because now the time. So I was also laid off in beginning of end of 2022 going into 2023. right. Yes. I think so. Yes. I've been at Gravity Forms for just over a year. So 2023, your first layoff, my first layoff too. I've never been laid off before like that. And you experienced the same thing in 2023.
So like the whole industry was going through it, but you know, You, I also have invested a lot of time on the social media side of it, connecting with others. Is that something we should be teaching, teaching with air quotes, part of being what I'll call a WordPress professional or a professional in the tech space to, to be more social and to connect with others, because that was super important for me to find another job. And it sounds like it was the same.
Importance with you is if you hadn't created that network, maybe it wouldn't have been as easy to just, you know, post stuff on social and get people to amplify that. Is that even possible to teach? Am I that or overstating that, that creating a social network is important for, for us in the job space so that when we are looking for another job, it's, it's a little bit easier, there's a super unique to WordPress, what's, what's your point of view?
yes, I think it's something that can be taught. I was actually taught to do, to do this and it's just, it's harder in the tech space because we have so many people who identify as introverts. and it's hard for them to go out and do that. People don't believe me because I'm such a sparkling personality. I was a very big introvert. I just had no choice. I had no choice. I had to become an extrovert. First of all, I'm six, two people. They see a 6'2 woman, they will bother you.
People bother me every day. Two, I want things. I'm very ambitious. I've always been very ambitious, especially since I was a child. And my mom and dad used to say, you have to open your mouth if you want something. So, it can be taught. when I first finished my coding classes, they said, hey, it's not what you know, it's who you know. That's how you'll get a job. I'm sure we've all heard that before. It's It's that times 10 right now.
I've talked to many people older than me and they said this is the worst job market they've ever seen in their lives. So, I mean, yes, it can be taught and it should be taught, especially in the WordPress community. the people I see getting laid off and then getting jobs again are the people who know people, they got a job because their friend works someplace or their friend owned something. That's great. But what is everybody else going to do?
It's. So it's what millions of people all over the world will use WordPress. We don't all know each other. We don't all have that network. So yes, it's something that should and can be taught. And again, it's not, it's not what you know, it's who, you know, unfortunately.
Yeah, it's It's also almost sort of the same way because I've seen that this is a forever debate about open source WordPress and influence, know, let's say from automatic and
hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
I just mean this is how it sort of like gets done core contributors. Like in order to get it done, you have to, you know, be that squeaky wheel to keep bringing something up. And there are track tickets like decade plus in age that people are still like, is this ever going to get fixed? Like that, like being vocal and connecting with other people. that's just, that's how open source works to a degree. It's how marketing works. It's a core fundamental piece of operating, at least online.
I don't know if, well, your opinion, I don't know if this same thing works in regular job land. Is that, is that, can I even say that? Is that fair to say? or maybe it does. I don't know. Do you have a particular opinion? if we're not doing tech, is all of this just thrown out the window? And, and do we have to feel bad about it? for, for people who have to get regular jobs without this kind of, this kind of, you know, advantage that we have.
you're no, it's, it's the same. It's the same in the regular job market. So the regular, the tech job market to me is awful right now. The regular job market is also pretty bad. that was one thing I wanted to highlight in my podcast. I was like, I don't want it to be another WordPress podcast. I don't want it to be another tech podcast, but because that's what I do, you know, of course it's going to have a large focus on it, but let me hear from people in different industries, which is.
Who are featured on the podcast. Let me hear what they're talking about. let me hear from a manager. I had a manager who actually does hiring and firing on there. And, it's bad all over. And it's something you'll have to learn all over. Like my first job after my second layoff in January, I couldn't get a job. I tried to get a job in tech. I couldn't get a job. And as of March, I was like, well, I can keep holding out for another tech job.
And lose my home or I can go get a Rick and I'm doing the air quotes, regular job. And so I got my first job in March and it was a regular job and the place I work at, I won't say what I'm doing because honestly I am still, I hate to say, It's not any, I hate to like even stumble on it cause people are like, well, what are you doing? Is it bad? It's nothing bad. It's very legal job for everybody listening. but it's just, it's not something I never thought I would ever be doing.
but that job has been so supportive. they've helped me a lot and I work with five other people. Two of whom are a married couple and the husband got the job through his wife. So yes, especially outside of tech, you still need to know people. I don't know, I know you're on Twitter. Did you see the guy that said he, he put in 463 job applications and he didn't get a call back. That was trending on Twitter last week, I think.
And, it started a big debate about like, how the job process is broken and he shouldn't have to do that. And then it's people on the other side saying, well, that's just what you have to do these days. And then there's people kind of in the middle, like it sucks, but honestly, it's who, you know, now everywhere, you'd need to know somebody to get a job.
Yeah. It, and that's a non, that's a non tech job. Does it feel good not to have to think about PHP and just for a few hours a day?
So when I first started the job, it was my only job. Kinda. I still work for LinkedIn, but it's LinkedIn is not a continuous job. So that was, my only job technically at the time. And yes, it was wonderful.
Yeah.
when I clocked out and went home. Cause it was in person. My first in person job too, in a long time, when I clocked out and I went home, I was home. I didn't have to think about code or anything else. My second job is writing. I'm writing again. And, it's technical writing. So it was a little bit back into it, but it's just writing.
My third job that I started two weeks ago, I'm back web development, web maintenance, and I'm doing PHP and JavaScript again, and I can definitely feel the difference because, last night I was sleeping and I was thinking about some code while I was going to sleep. I was thinking about some code. I needed to change. I was like, I'm not getting out of the bed. So I was back at it.
Yeah, I'm gonna just put it
Oh,
now like once was my house is paid off. I might just become a landscaper. I just want to buy a truck,
yeah. Mm hmm. Mm
website that there is. And just, automate all, the making and use, use all that tech advantage that I've been building up for, for years. And just, what, you want me to cut this grass? Okay, it's, it's 30, it's 40, that's it. That's the
hmm.
I want to think about. I don't want to think about any more code or product you know, marketing and why isn't this attribution link working. I want to be done with it. Yeah. I, I mean, did, did you ever, for a moment, think about, and maybe you do, still, maybe on, on the side side, but did you ever think about, you know what, so finding a job isn't, isn't working out. Maybe I'll just go into pure freelancer consultant mode.
I'll just go out, find a book of business again, and start, start with that. is that a thing that you ever thought about or is that, you know, I, I, it's not something I want to, that's not the kind of risk I wanna take on.
Yeah, I actually, what kept me floating through the first few months after my second layoff this year was I had contract work. I had some friends who started a small candle business. I had another person who was, who had a consulting website on Wix and she just needed a new website. so I had some people who had, maintenance clients, maintenance work is my favorite work. I love fixing stuff. And they were like, you know, These people need help, but I don't have the bandwidth.
Can I send them to you? So I've done it. Yes. And, I like contracting freelancing. I don't want to do it full time and I don't want to depend on it for money.
Yeah.
And all three of my jobs I'm working right now are contract jobs and it's great because I get paid every week and you know, it's tax free for now. But, I, you know, the trade office, I don't have health insurance. That would have been the same thing if I, you know, if I was freelancing, I don't have PTO. I got sick in May, April, I got really sick and I was in the hospital, which nobody knows. I didn't tell anybody. So when they listen to this deal here and, no health insurance, no PTO.
So it's I left the hospital with a doctor's bill that I couldn't pay really. And I lost money from work.
Yep.
So I'm not brave enough yet. that's something like when I'm working with. Like i'm making like really good money again, and i'm getting benefits I start on the side I build it up on the side It's building up and then when I feel comfortable enough to make that jump i'll i'll do that. But right now i'm just i'm scared I
way of, framing it. But how do you think about, as, let's say, a full time employee, how do you think about hedging your own interest in the future? Here's what I'm getting at. And I know the answer is semi is you're, you have the hopeful workspace podcast and, and your other work that you're doing, but how do we make that? Should we make this, should we normalize this and can it be normalized and can employers also support this?
So let's say you can, you continue the podcast and it's two, three years from now, and the podcast is still going and know, maybe this job, maybe your full time job, let's go again, or you leave, right? But you have the body of work over the last two or three years running the podcast. You know, all your social media stuff. Should we normalize that? should you get a full time job and then also have a side hustle?
As like an insurance, as a, as like an insurance barrier to, I might lose this job so I have to keep like hustling on the side. Is that something we should be doing? I don't know. should we be doing it? And if the answer is yes, should employers be like, Oh, no, it's cool that you have a side hustle. It's okay. Because we understand how hard it is. Is that a thing? Should that be a thing?
have two answers to that.
I
I'll tell you
it. I don't know how to
No, I know exactly what you're saying. It's the normalization of hustle culture is what people call it on Twitter.
Mm hmm.
me a couple of years ago, I would have told you, no, we should not do this. working three jobs is, is exhausting. The only reason I can do it is because my, one of my jobs, the first one I got, it's a sit down desk job. And sometimes we have, well, a lot of the times we have downtime. And I can, and they don't care what I do as long as I'm at work and you know, my work is finished. I could do whatever I want the rest of my shift. So I work on other work then.
So, I think they called it over employment on Reddit when people did that during COVID. that's how I can work these jobs. I was a person then I said that I would work really hard in school and life. So I wouldn't have to work more than one job. I'm a person that I love my social life and my life outside of work. I do not love work. I don't want to live to work. And, that's how I lived my life. I excelled and I did well. So I wouldn't have to hustle, join hustle culture.
After my layoffs, my answer has changed because I am so terrified of not having any income.
Mm.
And I think the job market is so bad, especially in tech. I think people should have at least one backup. And if it's not something they're working currently, something they can fall back on. I had, when I got laid off from my first job, there were a lot of, of my former employees. They had other side hustles. They were like, well, it's okay. I have a book of business where I can go and just work off that. Or some people were like, well, you know, my spouse, my owns a business.
I'll go work for them or work with them. And, me and one of my other coworker, she was like, well, what are you going to do? I was like, I don't know. What are you going to do? She was like, I don't know. So, I hate that it's come to that in the United States.
Mm.
You used to get your white picket fence and what was the American dream? The white picket fence, two and a half kids. In a car
Yeah, the
and you could work, Homer Simpson work, you know, pushing buttons at a nuclear power plant. He has like a five bedroom house, two, three kids, two cars.
yeah.
impossible now. So I just think, no, we shouldn't, we shouldn't be telling people this. It shouldn't be normalized, but some of us have no choice.
Hmm.
it's just, it just depends on who you are. I have no choice. I have, I'm married. My husband works very hard. He supported me a lot. He was a good support system. I know people who got laid off. They had nobody. Some of them lost their homes. They lost their cars. So it depends on who you are, but if you're in my position or if you want me, if you're just directly asking me, yeah, get a side hustle. I'm sorry, but get a side hustle.
It can even be, like, again, let's frame it from, the
Mm
as an example. fill in the blank with your own podcast, dear listener, fill in the blank with your own podcast. Or YouTube channel, or blog, or newsletter.
hmm. Mm hmm.
Like monetization scheme, like you're making, you're selling courses, you're doing all this stuff. Maybe it doesn't have to be that, but maybe it's just like a body of work, a portfolio that says, this is the stuff I'm like super passionate about.
Mm hmm.
the day, like that consistency keeps people aware of what you do and the, your abilities. And if you ever have to leave a job or a job, let's go, let's you go. You can now say, Hey, look, I haven't given up on this body of work. By the way, this is what I'm really good at. Hopefully this helps me get that job right in
Mm hmm.
market. I don't know. That's the way maybe I'm too romantic around content and like podcasting and all that stuff, but that's how I see it as this is my biggest resume I could hand to somebody look, this is all this stuff I haven't given up on in years. Do you want to hire me? Yes. No.
I think that's wonderful. And yeah, like I've been taking, I got a camera for my birthday last year. I've been taking professional pictures. They've gotten really better. Some people have asked me to sell them to them. And I'm like, Oh, I never thought about that. It's just something for fun. I started a garden and I have fresh Herbs and plants have tomatoes and lettuce and things like that. And people are like, I'll buy that from you.
Yeah.
I'm like, Hmm, I could turn this into something. And it's just something I started for like stress relief and fun. So yeah, I'm right there with you. It doesn't have to be like me working all these like crazy jobs at crazy hours.
Yeah.
some people are against, monetizing their hobbies, but I say, you know, don't forget it's your hobby
Yeah.
and you'll be fine.
Yeah. Back to the hopeful workspace. Why, why a podcast? Why not a TikTok account? Why not a pure YouTube account? Like, why not an Instagram? I want to know why you picked a podcast.
I am a person who wants to get to the story. I think TikTok is very distracting and TikTok, if you want a successful TikTok, it has to be quick. So I don't think I could have gotten the story out on TikTok or any medium like that because it's really quick. And I don't know, it was like 20 seconds to get your point across. Oh, being laid off sucks. TikTok dance, glitter, glitter. Yeah. Oh, that wouldn't be the best thing for me.
but I think A lot of people who I talked to also said that listening to podcasts about feeling better, about mental health, about, just certain stuff they were going through, it really helped them. And it helped me too. There were, a few podcasts people would send to me just about Hey, if you're not having a good day, you should listen to this or, Or this is what we're talking about. This is all the good news going on in the world with, you know, amongst all the bad news.
So I said, Hmm, people for some reason seem to like my voice. I don't like my voice. I'm like, why don't I just hop on a podcast and talk to people, but also, give these other people a chance to tell their stories. And, I could talk to people all over, you know, the world if I want to, if I do a podcast because of the internet, just, you know, and then I can put it on YouTube, but all the other mediums just seem so restricted or I could only get one type of audience in versus a podcast.
I feel like it could reach way more people.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I am, I only like long form content. Because
hmm. Mm hmm.
primarily, long form, you know, YouTube channels and stuff like that. And, I don't like my work just disappearing like Tik TOK, Snapchat, Instagram,
Yeah. Yeah.
goes away. And it's I put so much effort into this. want to write it as a blog, send it as a newsletter and record it as a podcast. Sure. I'll do YouTube stuff, but. I really think that for me, like that
Mm hmm.
And, you know, I guess kids these days don't do that stuff. but it's important to me cause it doesn't go away. It's our own domain. You know, it's a whole open source WordPress thing. That's why we do what we do. and I, I love the ability to box it up and save it, repurpose it, all that stuff. so I'm glad you, you chose the route of, of audio. You said it's the first time you ran it, running this for yourself. So what's, what,
Mm hmm.
have been some of the challenges you've been faced with running it solo for yourself? Yeah.
and he's, he was also a engine, electrical engineer, major sound engineer. He was some type of engineer. I don't know. but he's like really good at like sound and like editing and things like that. I'm not. So editing was like, firstly, like a nightmare for me because I was like, Oh my God, I don't know how to flow this in. I don't know how to do transitions. I've never had to do this before. so editing was, It was hard, not as hard as I thought, but it was, it was hard.
just things like little things like, Oh, your microphone's popping. I don't know how to fix that. cause someone always fixed it for me or like an echo. Like somebody was like, Oh, I'll fix that echo for you. Like this podcast was actually supposed to come out a month before. And then I would sit down and I would say, Oh my God, this is so much, I don't know what to do, but, once I got everything figured out for the most part, it was so fun. And I'm not just saying that because it's mine.
Like I, it was so rewarding. Like I hadn't done anything in a really long time that was my own, that I put together myself, that I got to fix myself, that I got to say, I did this. And it was incredible. I don't think a TikTok would have, TikTok would have had that impact on me. Yeah,
to pull in guests? If guests want to reach out, where can they go to, to either sign up or knock on your door to, to jump on the show with you?
you can go to my website, niceyourgreen. com, forward slash the hopeful workspace and just, Hit the contact button and we can talk or you can, contact me on social media. nigh underscore the underscore creator on Twitter or LinkedIn. I am a LinkedIn learning instructor. So I have courses if you'd like to take my courses and help out a laid off WordPress developer. so yeah, you can reach out to me on any mediums. I'm super social. So I'm always super active on social media, even with three jobs.
And last question. Do you want this to be the go to place for folks looking for work in the WordPress space or sharing their stories? What's the North star you're trying to create with the hopeful works workspace.
I want them to share their stories. I, one of my, things before this, I wanted to do something like help people find work. again, it's just the amount of work that goes into that. It would have been more than I could handle, especially as a person who was also looking for work. So I just want people to come there when they're tired or they're mentally frustrated or they're thinking about giving up because it's not just you. It's a lot of us out there and we're not going to let you give up.
We'll be that support system for you.
I actually, thanks for hanging out and sharing your story today.
Thank you.