Raising Prices in WordPress

We're wondering, okay, like how do we turn this into a, we want to turn this into a secondary product. This can't just be for free. We can't continue free. And then I saw that you were raising prices. My brother's been, a happy customer for many years running, thetraderisk. com, his daily, finance, Non advice, newsletter slash membership, so check that out if you're interested in that stuff. But you just raised, I got the prices up right now.

You have a free plugin, which everyone knows and loves. Your standard plan is now 3. 47 for the year, plus plan 5. 97 for the year. And my favorite plan, which I should, I, I want more plugin developers and theme authors to do is have an enterprise plan at 5, 000 plus, like here's the floor, Mrs. Enterprise customer. Who's about to throw lawyers and a purchasing department at me. It starts at 5, 000 and we scale up depending on how much headache do you give me?

So all of that is to say you're raising prices. Fantastic. Insert. Clap, audio and the post edit. why did this happen? You have a whole sheet of notes, but why did this happen for you?

I think if I do the math on that, and it kind of coincides with the philosophy that you should always be experimenting with pricing, always be looking and reevaluating against inflation against other players in the market, and against where you really want to target and the best buyer for your product. So it kind of was a factor of all those things and least of which was our new 3. 0 version where we pulled some of our paid products into the core plugin.

So we just made the core product itself even richer, even better to start with. So we can dig into any of those areas, but really in the spirit of experimentation, this is the first phase of some other pricing changes you're going to see from us this year and next year.

the newest ones are the Google Analytics integration, which has fully commerce tracking, and custom dimensions tracking. So you don't have to use a product like Monster Insights for that. And then also an integration with the Kismet to help prevent spam checkouts. So those are two additions to that free tier.

And then all of a sudden they find themselves three years down the road with a business and they're doing taxes now, and there's all kinds of craziness running a business. How much of it is this the low price because they're afraid to raise the price? They they're not really they weren't really built for this and they're kind of afraid to say oh, man Try to bring my 29 plug in to 79 now How much of it is a fear factor or is there another element to why prices are so low in WordPress?

So I think they just look at what they think the, the top threshold is that they can get someone to buy it and they stick there. and often they're a small team. So 59 and you get thousands of customers in a year, that's a big deal.

Really good wage for a small team or a single founder with a couple freelancers working for them So often I think they look at it as what's sustainable for me What do I need to make and they stop there and they just don't want to think about it anymore I also think it takes time to get into a pricing model that will really fit you and fit your product So early on you have no clue you put a tag on it And if you're not looking at that every couple of weeks, every month early on, then you're going

to let that big gap go by. And then that fear sets in because you're like, wow, it's been this price for three years. How can I possibly raise it double, like double people are going to freak out on me. when you really should have been slowly increasing it. So you might be at triple or quadruple that initial price a few years down the road.

So we kind of win with that, I guess as consumers, but I, that's the one that really drives me nuts. And I think. people who are building plugins or themes or a SaaS business that's powering another business. That's okay. That one makes sense. Raising that price makes sense. if somebody is listening to this, they have their, their plugin business. What was it that triggered you to say, okay, it's, it's finally time to do it. Like, was it the economy? Was it the inflation?

What was it that was like, okay, it's finally time three years since we've done this, let's do it again. What was it that really pushed it over the hump for you?

the person that we're really designing toward, the person that years from now we'll be using our product and succeeding best with it is someone that wants to get paid through their membership site. It's someone that wants to invest in their business and create a serious online membership and the online subscription portal. and those people have money to invest in their business. So, even though they're a DIY or they're looking at this as a long term relationship with us.

And I think by increasing the price, we're getting more of those focused buyers on the product rather than like the person that's just kind of considering it and just going to disappear in a year. a lot of our value is provided in that first year of membership. Yep. So when we work with you through support within three months, you should be pretty stable and your sites launched maybe sooner than that. and then year two is just gravy. You're, you're iterating on your business.

You're generating your content and you're growing. but we see a lot of people drop off on year two and a lot of it is because their business failed. So I think we're trying to tackle that from the front end to say, If you're ready to invest in your business, a larger chunk of money. And really commit to it then I think you're more successful year two and we have less churn

I constantly see, especially in the creator side, I made this comparison the other day, and I don't want to put you in any hot water, especially if you have add ons, but beehive, the email platform versus convert kit, the email platform. I see beehive like the typical startup bros, the content that's coming out, the brand that they, that they portray startup bros. Look how much money we raise.

They just raised prices as well off the back of whatever, 30 million or something like that, that they raise. I forget what it is. And it's this constant, like, look at us.

Securing the bag right as founders and you just know that at the end of the day They're just gonna sell to whoever is ready to buy them for it's gonna be their song story of a billion dollars or something Insane and congratulations to them But the content and the connection they put out is look at us build this platform that you all love or care about I see people perceived to love only to get sold at the end of the day, you know, and that's what blows my mind is that people should be investing

in brands that put that customer first convert kid. I see it much more on the creator side. They just launched like a podcast studio that any of their customers can use in Ohio or something like that. Different, two different stories. And both you and Jason have been around since the dawn of commercial plugins. And you continue to put that customer first and foremost, back to your thing about these customers. We lose customers because they go up. They, maybe they go out of business.

This membership thing was too hard. How are you positioning to, to solve that now that you've got 3. 0 out the door and your notes, you have already working on 4. 0 in the, in progress. How are you, Because that's a whole other animal. How are you getting that customer first and foremost to say, we want to make you the most successful at your membership? How are you positioning yourself for that?

I joke that like ugly websites are successful websites because a lot of it isn't what it looks like. It's that people are getting the value that you said you were going to provide them to challenge that recurring fee. So we're going to do front end work. It's a long time coming. we often thought, you know, themes would handle this and themes would style forms better and themes would do this, but it's not the case. So we're getting very opinionated.

I think you'll see in a lot of what we do, taking a lot of things in house. we can say we integrate with all these platforms, but in reality, that's another point of failure for people without, their own skills and developers. So even things that we thought we would just provide working with recapture for abandoned cart recovery, we're going to take that. Or how can we make things like that in house because we know that we can control it.

We know that we can make it more seamless and we don't have to rely on the other partner to do some contribution of that code. So I think that will just make things a lot easier for that DIY creator. we're also looking at how our 4. 0 version could function not only as a membership and subscription platform, but kind of as a one time payment, transactional, Purchase environment.

So we look at memberships as a subscription Platform, but we're as integrated with gateways as WooCommerce is so if you think WooCommerce is challenging to work with and to develop for It's even more challenging for memberships because we have subscriptions built in but we have the ability to take one time payments, too So a lot of our users are saying they want to be able to sell recurring memberships but also sell one time things.

So, we're looking at that as a way for people who just don't know how to deliver value on a recurring basis, but they can create one time info products and still have a community and audience of members on their site. so definitely looking at those two pieces.

And then also, because we're focused on helping people get paid, we can focus more on, On the things that help our members get paid from their members so looking at like I said abandoned cart recovery is one point there churn and all kinds of things like that So helping them be more successful by avoiding shooting themselves in the foot with rookie mistakes.

And we know where it slots in because we have our solutions maybe for front end and forms and all this other stuff, but your customers come to you and they're like, ah, I don't even. Like, what's this WordPress thing? They said I should use this and you have to solve for so much theme in front end is huge. And you guys started tackling with your own theme probably like what? Six ish years ago, roughly.

So we're trying to feel it out and feel which would be the right theme direction, not replicating BuddyBoss's features too much, but some of the profile pieces that people like that just make them feel like their website is more professional, more professionally created.

And once a course is taken it's hard to justify Why do I keep paying you like I took all your courses? Why am I going to keep subscribing? So it's interesting to me to watch where member press is taking their product where paid memberships pro is more focused on the member itself On the association the community site which may have an aspect of e learning But not as the core delivery. so that's an interesting thing. Lifter's interesting too, because they don't have their repos public right now.

So they are open source, but a lot of their code is not publicly available on GitHub the way ours is. So I think Jason and Mai's influence has been dumped more into the core product. Think about ways, that we can become more open source and more open, through that. So they are one of the most expensive luxury LMS. And it's, again, they have the very robust free open source plugin, more complete than any others that are out there.

I think, you know, I haven't used Sensei much, but it's a shell of what Lifter LMS does. LearnDash has a premium only product. So, there are other ones in the repository that are popular LMSs. I think the most successful e learning sites, the huge e learning sites are using Lyft or LMS or LearnDash for their products. So yeah, I don't know. It's interesting to be in two conversations about pricing with two products

Become successful. We know that in year two, we'll have proven our value even more to you and you will pay the full price on year two upgrade or renewal. that gets a lot of flack. Carl's, your boss at Rocket Genius, has given that form of pricing a lot of flack, but it's something that's been really working for the Lifter product.

Because they had such a high tier, their top tier was 1, 200, for people to get in at that price was really challenging, and a lot of the add ons in that tier are important add ons. ways to offer advanced quizzing formats, protecting downloads is coming, delivering advanced, I said, quizzes, forms, custom fields, playback on video, timing of things. A lot of those are, are essential to a course, but it was a prohibitively expensive price point.

So it's interesting to watch that introductory pricing. It's something we'll probably end up doing, with Paid Memberships Pro. Because it aligns with our mission, to help as many people as possible get in, get on board, get set up, and start a business that's paying their salary or more. So, yeah, we're, they're watching, some ad, we're doing some Google Ads work. You connected me with someone in your company to, to talk through that, which was really helpful.

so they're watching our Google Ad, Google paid ads work, and we're just sharing all of that back and forth.

But as a, as a user and somebody who, who kind of like thinks about products a lot, I like, that's fine, as long as I can dismiss it, because I feel like if I'm using it as, number one, I feel like it just screams at me all the time, like when I'm using it because of the color pattern. but if I'm, if I'm putting it on a customer site, it also feels like, Oh, you're using this thing that's constantly telling me I have to buy it. So there's a sense of urgency. It's just a inside baseball thing.

But from a product perspective, I like something that once I get to a certain point, I, I can't do the thing I need to do unless I upgrade. And that I don't mind because if I'm being successful, like looking at you have your free plug in free core plug in. And then if I look at the standard, I might be looking like, oh, well, I'm finally at a point where affiliate tracking. Yeah. Is useful to me or membership cards. I need that. Or if I go into the plus plan, I can do invite only membership.

A lot of people come to the site, you know, on the, in the context of, Oh my God, you're so expensive. They look at it and they go five 97 a year. I can't afford that. Well, you don't need it yet, right? You just don't need all these things unless you do, but if you're just starting out. The free one is going to do it for you. And until you get to, okay, I finally need sponsor or group accounts because I'm selling so much that that's finally come up.

And Oh, by the way, if you're selling a group account, five 97 for the year is probably. What you're charging that one seat for, you know, minimally to get access to this stuff. So I like this, I don't need it until, until I'm like forced to get it kind of a bad way of saying it, but I don't need it until my business is succeeding and then I'll happily upgrade. I think that's the smartest way to get there.

No direct question, but just more of like a statement of how I use software and how I like it to be developed.

As it becomes more expensive, the type of site at that tier is like a large scale thousand member PLUS association. I hope that they're making way more than 597 a year. that that's a fraction and a no brainer to them. Still, it should be a no brainer, for all that they're getting under one hood. piecing things together creates a nightmare, locking yourself into a SaaS product that's going to tax you more as you grow. That's how all the email marketing platforms work, right?

I was so successful, my email list grew to a thousand people. I'm paying a lot of money a month to a product like Beehive or ConvertKit at that stage. That's not the case with open source software. So, we have to kind of think, who are we also competing against outside of the WordPress space, and how do they price things, and how do they tax people or, or increase the price as growth happens.

and, People don't realize that I think from day one, but hopefully they, you know, five years in when they're very successful. I hope they think back like, wow, I'm still only paying 5. 97 a year for this thing. And I'm, we have sites making millions of dollars a year. We can see in Stripe Connect how successful they are, and they're not paying us any more than the site that just starting.

Are other brands or things that we've never heard of using it in a different way?

So that is something you can start to do now, I think, with ConvertKit, charge for, for your newsletter. But we often see that that's just one piece of the puzzle and there's no home for people to come back to. So I think. A membership site works best when you have content that you're delivering of different formats, and you want to protect it under one roof.

So, we haven't done things like white labeling, and stuff like that, but it's been talked about.

Like you're teaching a course, you need all of that stuff. That's lifter. And then if you need the membership, for content, for recurring payments. You don't need to be teaching somebody this in depth course that's paid memberships pro, at least in my head.

we often see people like install two membership plugins when you don't need to like there's conflicts that people create because it's It's hard to identify where one plug in's functionality ends and another begins. And then we see plug ins kind of all calling themselves a membership plug in. an example of that was the WP User Avatar that rebranded to ProfilePress and now is a, is a membership plug in. And, it was a largely used Avatar only plug in.

We recommended it, and then all of a sudden they were like, we want to be a membership plug in, so we're going to add. Call ourselves profile press and add some features in and it was just a strange experience, but we're still seeing it happen.

Probably not a lot of competition when you look at the real world and you zoom out and you look at SAS marketplace or software at large. What's your thoughts on competition? What's your thoughts on competition from the mothership? How do you think about it now versus maybe when, you know, 10 years ago when the market was like super hot and everyone was launching something every other day, do you have a shift? Do you feel much more grounded these days?

Do you feel much more confident, in where your position is?

org plugins listings thing, I think that has created confusion for users. we saw that conversation about search ranking and seeing. com results come up, they're still coming up for me before. org rankings, which. is I don't know. It's gonna keep happening. So, I guess I'm, we're starting to look outside of WordPress and the competition within WordPress and look, like you said, look outside to the grander scale of things. I don't know.

and they've, and then they rolled that into what they called Spotify for podcasters, where you could go and record your podcast, just like you could with anchor. With Spotify and they just killed that off. So now the industry is like. Cause that was like the automatic solution, right? That might be, that might have been like the sensei in the LMS world.

Like, Oh yeah, it's, it helps you create a membership, but it's nowhere near what you're going to do with paid memberships pro or lift their LMS. And certainly nowhere near if you combine the two. So it was always largely looked at like, ah, yeah, I did this thing. 60 percent of like what other podcast hosting companies could do.

And then you have all the different fragmentation of podcast hosting companies, largely just doing RSS feeds, but there's, there's, there's They all have like their little accessory features that go alongside of it. So the experience is, is different. but now the industry is like, who the hell is going to take over?

Like the, the free version of, of podcasting, because that was as much as everybody, you know, railed against Spotify and what they were doing with podcasting and trying to own podcasting. That was also a huge on ramp for like amateur podcasters to be like, okay, this thing's free and I can record here. And that got people into the space. Sort of like what Automatic could, should do, right? It'd be like, oh yeah, we'll help you get in.

And then, by the way, here's paid memberships pro when you want to go up, right? When you want to move up. so now the, the podcast world is, is in a bit of like, what, what, what is going to happen now that the free thing is gone? That we, that we all kind of needed. you know, and, and I see it with Automatic, with the agency stuff. Yes. One of those things too, where I was like, For years, why doesn't Automatic in WordPress work more with us, right?

We're the ones building it, but now that they have that suite of, of plugins, you know, you can probably assume that if they're walking into an agency, they're gonna be like WooCommerce, Lifter, like these are the, Jetpack, these are the things you'll, yeah, Sensei, I said Lifter, Sensei, Jetpack, these are the things you're gonna use, and now that becomes, all right, well, that's a little scary. For us indies that are out there. you know,

We don't know. I don't know.

Start getting a little bit more serious with this stuff. How does that change your perspective? Like, do you, do you feel different going to those events? Do you think like now you kind of step outside the WordPress world and go to like other events or do other marketing initiatives that aren't traditional to WordPress without giving away the secret sauce?

If they don't know about Paid Memberships Pro yet, that's okay. I don't think that they're out there building membership plugins, or building membership sites. So does it make sense for us to always be a part of this anymore? I don't know. I think I'm getting to a place where maybe I bring a tinge of bitterness that the newer entrants to the WordPress community don't need to hear or be a part of. And I'm, there is a youth in WordPress. There is a growing number of people. I'm in my 40s.

There's people in their 20s that show their enthusiasm In more ways than I can today provide. when I look at international camps and, you know, in Asia, the vibrant communities there, I think it used to, it's migrated. We used to have this young WordPress community in the United States. I don't think we're here anymore. I think we're more international and that's good. That's like another evolution that I'm happy to see happening. And it doesn't necessarily include me or disclude me.

I can participate it at will when I want. And I can step back too and let the. The new generation not be tainted by my bitterness, right?

And, he's a guy who came in never cracking open a code editor, didn't have to, you know, edit functions, PHP, like you and I had to do, or probably still have to do on some of our sites, never even saw that and just came in through Elementor. Now he's a, he's using, he's using bricks and I know there's a lot of fan favorites in the, in the page builder world, but there's like this reality that.

You know, just like when our parents or grandparents used to say, like, I used to walk to school, like, well, we don't need to walk to school anymore. Right? And there's these users that are like, I don't need to write code. I don't want to, like, I want to enjoy using WordPress. Just let me enjoy using WordPress. Isn't that half the battle? Yes. So just let me use my element or my bricks or my beaver builder, whatever. And let me just do my thing without having to do it the hard way.

And I think that's a reality. That's what Gutenberg and site editor as much as we're using. Pulling our hair out about it at some levels. That's what that's getting to in a slow, tires tirelessly aggravating pace. but that's what people want, man. And we just have to embrace it and, and work with it because I think, like you said before, when you see Elementor, Just by the numbers. Everyone's using it. You go. That's what the market wants. So I'm going to support it.

I'm sorry It's business and this is how we're gonna work So again, yeah 100 percent I agree with you There's this whole new wave of people coming in that are experiencing WordPress for the first time and they're not doing it like you and I used to do it, but so what we can we can help them right and we can share with them Like the most positive side of it, which is the open source side of it to a degree.

things that we. We as I say we like you and I and people who have been in WordPress for 15 18 years are feeling about the direction It's not what's the end user like Mark or Sam are experiencing. So we have to just accept that that's okay

How to portray this without sounding, too, commercial, it's not that even the right word, but it's almost like, I love word. I love WordPress because it's open source and I love open source because we, we, we can have a say in it. It doesn't mean that we'll get accepted. So on one hand, I love the fact that I, I can have a say in it. The other hand, I know that I'm not going to obviously get everything that I can, that I'm asking for. But at the same time, I'm not ultra worried about.

Like the automatic mothership thing, because at the same time, like I'm reaping the benefits from open source as well. So it's almost like respect, open source, take from open source and give back to open source. I'm like at this like trifecta thing right now where like, you can, you can still reap the benefits from it. It's, it's okay. But as long as you respect it and give back at some capacity and then take Stuff away from it, which a lot of us do like we're selling websites.

We're selling plugins. We are gaining from it You know, but we just can't have everything. I don't know at the end of the day It's this weird thing that we're at.

like clickbait and this like needing to be outraged like it just has to end From the bigger voices in the wordpress space The negative criticism like let's just like tone it down a little, you know Accept where things are and the direction they're going or stake a, put a stake in the line of the sand and go change something. Like you can hook into WordPress in so many ways. Most of what you're upset about can probably be fixed with your own custom code.

And if enough people come along board with you, then maybe it becomes part of core eventually. Like that's what you said. That's the beauty of it. Take what you want from it. Build off of it. It, it's yours to do that with. sitting around feeling sad and sour grapes is, is not where you should be. That's a sick way to live.

it's very easy for us, you know, to do that, because we, you know, we are very opinionated, but I think we're at it's such a monolithic piece of software and community community now. It would really take something massive in order for people to really revolt, right? People revolting about, you know, how the Gutenberg block sidebar hides the typography unless you expand it. Like, why isn't that just open all the time, right?

But you can't, we're not going to win those arguments and that's not the thing that you're going to just like die on a hill for, you know, eventually it's going to get fixed, you know, it will. So just like, let's all just move on. And I think it would take something massive. It would have to be something massive. And that is the safe, that would be the safeguards of open source at that point. I don't know what that massive thing is. I have no idea.

It would have to be like open AI, like an open AI integration into core WordPress where you'd be like, wait a minute, what the hell is this? You know, I, I don't want this in my, in my WordPress or it'd have to be something massive to really have. People stand up and revolt or change things in WordPress. So the little stuff

so some one person emailed and said you highly overestimate the value of your product one person And I was like, I think we highly underestimate it, you know, i'm thinking we didn't write them back We just let them their email go into the trash, you know, so no not so far there's always a lull after a price increase and a lot of that is just like The way people buy and the way people make software decisions. So, sure there's people that come to the site, see the price, check out, immediately go.

A lot of people begin at the free level, 10 percent of them upgrade to a paid plan. I think it's about 50 50 whether people buy just outright or sign up for the free first. those are weird numbers that don't make sense in the way that I told them. but there is always a lull because a lot of people are making these decisions slowly. They might have, other stakeholders involved that they're getting on board.

So if two weeks ago they went to the pricing page and they were one price, and they come back to buy, it's different. They begin those conversations. They begin that mental wrestling again. So there's always a lull right after. It's about a week long. We're not even. A week out. We're almost at a week from, from it, having done it. So, we'll see long term if we stay at this price and how long we stay here, but, no major pushback.

I'll say just the, the fear and uncertainty that me and Jason have after doing it.

So it's pretty regular now, except for that outsized November. I don't know. I guess when you're an international, serve an international audience, seasonality isn't as big of a thing. Do you see it at your, at your company? Are you into the numbers? Do they let you see that stuff?

By the way, if you don't mind, I'll copy and paste this into the show notes because I think there's a lot of other great takeaways here. but planning ahead for introductory pricing. let's break this down. Avoid the always on sale look, which I think you just mentioned. Avoid the always on sale look for false, scarcity. is that something that you, You tried and that's basically like first year 97 and then next year is one 97 customers. Like what the hell just happened? I thought it was 97.

is that your take on false scarcity?

We used to be more expensive the first year and cheaper the second and we went to the same price every year, as, as well as your first year, so now we're going to try the inverse, less your first year, more in the second, and that's just that alignment to letting people get in who need it and can't yet afford it, who are just starting out, and that's what our mission is aimed at, so the people that want to grow, and in year two, they should have proven And they should be grown enough to justify

the full price renewal of the product. So it'll be curious to try it. It's an experiment we haven't done. And why not try them all?

Or are you just saying, Oh, look, now that they're here, we're just going to charge them full price. So are you, are you going to change the price again? Is that what you're

Unless they have had like established long term business together. It it's hard for me to recommend that. as interesting as that is, it does serve as a decoy price and maybe becomes a lifetime deal in time. but it exists to say like, yes, we can be used on large scale associations. You know, then an enlisted association of the national guard uses paid memberships pro across all of its member states, they don't pay us 5, 000. They pay one of our developer partners to maintain.

Their websites and their, their things, and they pay for a subscription for their license keys individually. so it, it really is a conversation to say, what are you doing with paid memberships pro? Oh, you're really an agency. Should people be buying their own licenses? Should you just start buying a la carte licenses and what would that look like?

I can't talk about it yet, but there is a dominant, predominant, well known, WordPress agency that's going to use Paid Memberships Pro and was otherwise considering building in house. And they were like, are we an agency? I was like, are you going to support this customer? Yes. They just need a license and let them use it. So, I love having those conversations because it's, it's where we learn about the really cool implementations of our product.

minimum plan was 5, 000 a year because every single purchase was, Oh, marketing person at some company. Oh yeah. I love it. Want to buy it? Okay. How much is it? And you're just like, you're talking to them and they're like, okay, yep. Okay. Sounds great. And then. They're like, we'll, we'll, we'll buy it. I'll send another email like next week or whatever. And then that email next week is the legal team.

It's the I. T. team that wants you to pass, some kind of like security sanity check and you're filling out Excel spreadsheets and you're like, what the hell is this? and I think that every plugin touch something in enterprise should have this reserved enterprise price. Even if you're not, Advertising it, you just have it because you're not going to want to go through all this other stuff.

And you actually might lose some, like, if, if you find it interesting, you might lose business if you don't have that kind of solution advertised. Cause they might, because sometimes even at five 97 a year, an enterprise is just like. They find that in the loose change drawer. Like that's nothing, right? 500 nights, they won't even work with you,

You know, our site has 160, 000 members. You can, we can manage your thousand member Chamber of Commerce. it's just, it, it's hard for people to say, see that an open source product and something WordPress on a blogging platform could, could batch something that would be in those six figures plus.

he actually was not sipping cocktails maybe some nights, but he just took his time to read books and heal. I think he was really getting burned out. At the end of 2023. and we had been developing 3. 0 for over three years. The first commit was like June, 2021 or something. It was like, no, it had to have been earlier than that. I don't know. I can get you the real date. And I took that time to work with our lead developer and just say like, what's in, what's out, what do we have to get done?

And we just, by the end of, even before Jason's sabbatical, mid December, we had a working beta version of 3. 0 to share with our community. Of people and it was Just really fast decision making, really fast code review between David and I. I would do a PR, he would approve it and merge it within minutes. I would say, it's up, it's ready to go. and we just kind of got really hyperactive on it and, and we got a beta release out the door.

So that was a fun time for me to work that closely with David because I didn't really in my day to day. So I just moved aside all my marketing tasks and focused on my development tasks in the team. So it was good. It was like. Jason's not here. We can make the decisions. And that came up a lot. But when he came back, he said everything in right that it would have been in the way that he wanted to. But it was grateful that he didn't have to go through that period with us, I