Maddie Osmond, welcome to the WP Minute. Thank you so much for having me. Oh boy, it's been a while. You and I were on, I think it was like a webinar or some kind of panel many years ago. Talking about automation, you recently wrote a guest post or a post for Zapier, speaking of automation, where you shared some of my... Vibe coding. I was trying to find a way to insult myself because it was pretty bad. But no, it was an excellent article. You wrote some great stuff, not just me, about others.
So it tells me you're still in the automation space. You're still covering technology. We'll get to why you're still covering technology in a minute, but tell folks what you've been up to for the last couple of years. Oh, man. Last couple of years. Well, the biggest thing is I had a baby. So that like changes everything. Congratulations. Thank you. It does. And so that that definitely.
threw a bit of a wrench and I would say like, you know, just career development stuff in the meantime. But, um, I wrote a book over the pandemic. So that was, that was my big pandemic project. Besides, um, I also. started a sourdough starter twice. They got kind of funky, so I had to restart it.
And then I guess like the latest big thing is I launched a LinkedIn learning course that's kind of like based on what I talked about in my book. And now I'm just trying to figure out what to do in this world of AI. Where can folks go to get the book? So it's on Amazon and it's called Writing for Humans and Robots, The New Rules of Content Style. I always keep one by my desk just for moments like these.
Fantastic. Is that something that you always wanted to do, write a book, or did you happen upon it? So I did NaNoWriMo, if you've heard of that. For those who are unfamiliar, National Novel Writing Month, I think it's now defunct because it was like a nonprofit. There's some stuff going on with leadership. But anyway, I went into... November of that year basically saying, I want to do this NaNoWriMo project, which the goal is to write 50,000 words in a month, which sounds like a lot.
But if you break it down, it's about 1,666 per day, something like that, like a long blog post. And so I didn't know what I wanted to write going into it. But then I realized, like, I have... this great foundation of content that I've already kind of created for my own business in the form of a writing style guide. And so I kind of...
use that as an outline for my book. And the pieces fell together. But to answer your question, no, it wasn't necessarily something that I've always wanted to do. It just kind of, the pieces fell together. It's interesting, this AI landscape that we find ourselves in, and I love your perspective for somebody who spends her time writing words for other humans to read. Right, right. Listen, I am optimistic, skeptic.
but an optimist at the same time with this AI stuff. I don't see it taking over everything immediately. Like I don't see this, this rush to like, we're going to fire 30% of our staff. And some of these call to actions that I see CEOs putting out, the more that I see it, the more I'm like, oh, this is just you doing PR stuff. This is you pandering to either your investors.
or to the market to be like – like every other company when the economy – air quotes, when the economy is bad, cut jobs because everybody goes, OK, so it looks like you're doing something to sustain this. We'll get into deeper pockets of it in a moment. But like, what's your outlook on AI and how it's impacting your business? Totally. Yeah. I mean, as a content creator, I think that was like one of the first.
I'm trying to find the word, you know, like... just groups right to be kind of affected by ai like in terms of professions um it kind of it kind of hit content creators like the hardest first because ai the way that we're using it right now is generative you can generate text. You can generate images. You can use it to do other important marketing functions and things like that as well.
I think it's interesting what you were just saying too about, you know, like the CEOs and kind of like how they're responding to AI. And my, I guess, just digging into it. My understanding of AI so far is that like it really can't replicate everything right now. But, you know, it is a tool. I think I'm.
What I'm sort of discovering for myself is I had my head in the sand a little bit and I was playing with AI, but I wasn't necessarily doing anything advanced with it. You know, just basic chat, GBT, back and forth kind of things. And then, I don't know, some sort of switch flipped for me in the past maybe six months or so where my background's in coding. I don't necessarily do that, you know.
sort of hands on day to day at this point and running my business and being in the content world. But I really used to love doing it. And I think that Having things like vibe coding tools has brought back that love for me in a new and totally different way and supercharged because it's... being able to do things that I would not have been able to do without, you know, years of coding knowledge and experience. So I don't know. I'm kind of like you. I'm skeptical. I'm optimistic.
really interested in how we can use AI to create better workflows. I'm not as interested in using AI to replace human ingenuity, human thought, human opinion, that sort of thing. I had John Doherty from Editor Ninja on the podcast a few episodes ago. And I thought it was funny. He and I kind of joked about this where...
He started out with like content, writing content for customers. And then customers were like, well, we really need an editor. And so he started like, you know, doing those services and really, you know.
punching down on the on the editing services but then he had all these customers come to him with like oh we generated all this ai content can you edit it for me and like in the back of my head i'm just like wait a minute all all you people did was replace like the originator of the content with AI, but now you're going back to a human.
to make it better why not just start with the human to begin with like why did we swap this like it's great for his business right right but it was just like all you did was like swap one thing for another what how is that how is AI and the customer's perceptions affected like your blog writing for customers. Has it affected at all, positive or negative?
Yeah, I would say more for the negative in general, especially when we talk about like this world of SEO content, which has been kind of what my business has been associated with. We do so many other things, you know, white papers, case studies, landing pages. But it's like people think that this world of SEO content can be so easily replicated by...
working with an AI tool. In some ways, for the super top of funnel things that are extremely straightforward and they have this wide body of work that already exists, I think that's probably true. But that perception is kind of like floating down, you know, to the middle and the bottom of the funnel and the more like complicated assets that that we humans create. And so, yeah, I mean, it is.
It is a tough perception. And I think that what's actually playing out in the world is that these brands that maybe have traditionally worked with human writers are... Now kind of like flipping over to trying the AI side of generating content, maybe working with a human editor kind of thing. And what I think they should really be doing is doing both in tandem.
experimenting with ai content and figuring out how that can fit into a workflow but not necessarily i don't think we're at a point where we can give up you know completely that human originator to your point um and like What you're saying about that too reminded me of a client that we worked with recently who had given us, I don't know if it was a blog article, maybe it was a slightly longer form thing. They had used ChatGPT or whatever to create it. And I think that...
It had started, you know, maybe with some original content like a webinar they were repurposing or something like that. And I'm all for that. I think when you're repurposing your own body of work, that's like a different thing than generating something. from scratch and you know the things that come along with that is it plagiarism is it even correct fact whatever but um with this particular client
They neglected to tell us that it was, you know, chat GPT derived. And we kind of came to our own conclusions, you know, just looking at the pattern of words and things like that. But it really. It creates a problem, I think, when clients are not disclosing that because then it's like I don't even know where to start with fact checking, plagiarism checking. It creates new problems when it's not disclosed, I guess. Yeah. I...
Well, I want to tell you how I'm trying to – so obviously people listening to this, you're listening here at the WP Minute. Everybody kind of knows if you're listening to this like the WP Minute is a blog. It's a newsletter. It's a podcast. It's a YouTube channel. It's omni-channel publication. as I like to say. But I too am worried about how AI is...
interfering or diluting that experience because, well, whatever, you're going to go get your WordPress updates from ChatGPT. You can ask it to tell you what's happening with WordPress every single day through ChatGPT tasks. Why would you need to listen to me talk about it anymore?
But there's definitely – I do that. I do that to test ChatGPT and it's like the shittiest experience ever. If you want ChatGPT to give you WordPress updates, it just gives you – any kind of like security vulnerability that it finds like on the internet and it like that's the WordPress update like that's all you get like you don't you don't get like the human side of it yeah the point of that is is like
one of the the apps that i vibe coded which you covered for the zapier blog pulse wp i'm like using that as a way to like replicate myself and build myself out of a job to see how good it actually does. Let's just hold that thought for a second. And I love that app that you built. I've tried to replicate it myself. I can't remember.
Maybe I did it for like AI news or something. So I just thought that was a great idea. So we'll hold that for a second and we'll use that as a teaser to go down that path in a moment. But I. I was terrible. I was terrible at writing growing up. Like I think I've read three books my entire life. My son, my son who is eight going to be nine has read more books than I will ever read in my lifetime. And I'm like super happy that. He does that.
But I used to – once I started the blog, once I started the WP Minute, like I could sit down in a couple hours and write a thousand words on a topic that I'm like super passionate about. It was really doing a lot of that stuff. And then AI came out and – To increase productivity because I have a day job, I have kids, I have the WP Minute. I was like, well, let me see if I can leverage AI to just make me more productive. And this is a long way of getting to...
So what I do now when I draft blog posts is I just audio – I just record myself in audio, big thoughts, big ideas. Like I'm getting old now. Like I don't go for runs as much anymore, but I go for walks because my body, my body's like, you can't run anymore. You have to walk. So on those walks, I will just transcribe a thought for like 30, 45 minutes. And then I get back home and I feed it to Chachi PD and I outline all this stuff, right?
Yeah, I'm more productive, but I guess what I'm getting at here is I feel like I kind of miss sitting down. writing and being like, no, I don't like that idea. Let me formulate that again. Yeah. And it's like, I feel like I'm losing that. I'm like, I can feel myself losing that. And then it makes me like scared for humanity. Right. Because I'm like, like if we're not writing anymore, like, should, like, should we be leveraging these things?
How has that affected – how has AI affected you on that like emotional level and that skill of writing? I mean maybe you're not using AI. You'll tell us. But like how has that affected your life at all? Sure. And my process is very similar to yours. I am like ruled by my voice memos. I I'm trying to.
a vibe code like a new tool that i could use to like intake the voice memo and then like do like different things with it so that's so that's like very top of mind for me because that works really well with my process and um yeah again it's it's transcribing it it's
kind of like reworking it. I think those are things that AI is exceptionally well at because it's just like you were saying, you know, going on a walk, you kind of bounce around, you know, you go down this tangent, you go, you know, to this other one, and then it reminds you of another thing, or maybe you. see something on your walk and then it just, you know, sparks something. So I think, I think something like chat GPT is great.
the whole base of sun identifying patterns. Like it, it does that better than we do. So I think it is. Do you feel, do you feel like that's still authentic? Like, like if I'm. publishing something for example that i that i use like that flow for yeah like do you I think that you have to, I think that you can't just stop right at voice memo to transcript to here's my prompt and here's the end result.
You still need to be like an editor on that. And honestly, in my process, I usually won't go straight to like a draft. I'll do an outline. And then I might ask it to draft it if I've given it really sufficient material. If it's probably like a shorter form asset.
That's something that I would do. But then, yes, I would go through and I would check and I would see, did it introduce anything new? I might even ask it that, you know, like, did you make something up here? Or is this like verbatim from what I said and you've just reordered it? But what you were saying before, too, I think AI can become a crutch if we let it. And it's easy to fall into it because it's just such a big part of our lives now as we experiment with it, as we...
try new things. And so I think as content creators, it's up to us to not... Not let the crutch become that that we don't ever struggle with those ideas. Right. And coming up with ideas and the way of putting them ourselves and and also that we are very careful to fact check. Yeah. I've been. I'm sure like everybody else, like critically thinking about how to compete and how to survive in this AI era that we're in. And, you know, like I haven't sold.
websites as a website agency for almost like eight or nine years. Like whenever I stopped working at my agency and you know, one of the things is, is like, The advice I'm trying to give to folks these days, though I'm not living it day to day, is everybody can build a website now. So if you wanted to get into agency game...
which I still think like services is still super viable. Like I still think you can be profitable building websites. It's just going to be different. I think the particular... The particular angle you have to compete on is the experiences that you've lived as a human. So like if I'm going in to sell websites to say like nonprofits, I better have lived in that nonprofit world. Yeah.
To really compete. I mean obviously there's nuances. There's edge cases, right? But I think if you really want to win, like you could dial down on the experiences that you've lived to really separate yourself from that other person who's also using – tools to be more efficient so I'm curious of like has that
Transcended into writing too? Will customers hire writers that have lived these experiences? Like Zapier, for instance. You're writing for Zapier. I'm sure they must have been like, have you ever used Zapier before? And you're like, well, yes, I have. And I've used automation in my business, right? How do you see the human experience being the advantage these days?
about it too i the way i kind of put it as like that expert operator and like all else equal you know if i'm a writer using ai or marketer whatever and i'm going against If we're doing a side-by-side comparison and I'm going up against somebody who doesn't have that background, doesn't have that lived experience, the way that we use this tool, because that's all AI is, is going to be fundamentally different, right?
I'm also like questioning the outputs, right? I'm not just like blindly accepting it. I'm like, no, you kind of missed the mark here. You know, I was really looking for this or, you know, whatever my initial prompt, I'm structuring it based on kind of what I know and what I want. not as the end result. So I do think that's really important. And like, I think something that companies have to consider too is like,
You could build like these different AI workflows and things like that, but you still need a human operator to run them so that they can catch the problems and also so that they could get the most out of them. And really, too, you can build something. But I think like, you know, something I've learned just with like using Zapier, for example, it's like you always have to like maintain it too because the different, you know, tools that are connecting, they might change, right?
You know, just new technologies being introduced that affects, you know, your end result. And so, yeah, even if you, you know. were to like build a workflow and then like give it to somebody else they need to become an expert operator to get the most out of that workflow yeah yeah it's it's almost no different like for the writing prompts uh as it is for the coding prompts, right? It's like understanding fundamental things, right? Like...
You can't just go to, let's say, Replit and give it a two-sentence prompt and expect you to replicate this massive app. that you're trying to like replicate. I mean, it'll do something from like a design perspective and it'll look like the app. You're like, oh, this is pretty cool. Then you realize like none of it functions. Then you're like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. So same thing for like writing. You know, one of the other things I really struggle with in the discussion of the workforce.
Of people saying, well, hey, AI is going to be great because it's going to make us two, three times more efficient. We can do more. You won't lose your job. You'll just do two to four times more work.
And what I see is like the argument from – I listen to a lot of like other agency podcasts and I hear these agency – guys and it drives me nuts where they're just like if my team's not using ai they're not efficient then they're out of here right like you're not an a player you're not going to be working here anymore well okay i i hear that
And if that means that you want me to be twice as efficient, and let's say I am twice as efficient, this also means that I could be twice as efficient at another job. So are you okay with me? like being really efficient for you at this set amount of money. And I'm going to go over here and be, you know, twice as efficient in this other side of here. Now, as the employee, I can make...
Three times as much money, right? This is the way that I see it. Like I'm not just going to give you my efficiencies. I'm going to get my efficiencies everywhere. So what I'm seeing is this future of like the workforce, not just getting the employer to demand me to do more. work but me to be like you know what I can actually work for multiple people now like maybe now I am I am that that freelancer again that agency owner again where I have multiple clients
Again, this is a long way of getting to like, what's your outlook, if at all, for the workforce taking advantage of AI? Do you see that as something that will evolve to our advantage, not just... the employer's advantage? I hope so. I really like that outlook and I would cheer on that future for sure. I think that's not what it is right now or yet. And part of it is the experimentation, right? Like we're all sort of.
using these tools for the first time in a sense like collectively it's a new technological revolution even the commercialization of ai is like new um and so like i think what i worry about is
that employers see it as a way to squeeze much more out of their employees. And I think it's fair to have the expectation that maybe it would... increased productivity in general but yeah this whole two times three times ten times whatever I feel like what's so cool about AI at least in terms of the potential for it is you know that it that it can create these efficiencies and that it and that it can reduce like the things that i say like
you know, like our waste of human potential, right? Like the sort of like intern, you know, data crunching, you know, whatever, like just the like very basic, like reformatting a spreadsheet, right? Like stuff like that. I think it's a real win to be able to pass that off to AI when possible. And again, with the heavy caveat of like, you got to check the results.
But but yeah, it has this duality of also it's not just, you know, making your individual life better, but unfortunately, your company. probably thinking that they can squeeze a lot more out of you. And so it is kind of like a resurgence of the toxic hustle culture, which I hate, even though I love that AI workflows can make you more efficient. I think it's fair to hold two mindsets in this. Let's not grind it down.
to a stump like we can only do so much and you're only going to get so much efficiency right you know and you know and i also look at these these leaders who are who are saying things like If you're not on board with these AI efficiencies, if you're not being five times more productive, you're out of here. I look at them. I go, well, you're just one person. In fact, AI could replace you.
much easier than it is to replace your entire team of people. In this case, you're just that thought leader that you love to put out on LinkedIn. And in fact, ChatGPT can do that probably better than all the tasks that we do. where we're interfacing with all of these apps and solutions. So FYI, if anyone's in the crosshairs, it might be you. Yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. That's just my own personal rant when I see that stuff.
Customer comes to you. I give you a bit of a hot seat question, but let me frame it for you. Customer comes to you like, hey, Matty, we've been doing content marketing. We blog two or three times a month. We're not seeing... some results. We're not seeing as much results from this anymore. Google organic traffic is down. We don't understand what's happening with social.
How do you frame what success looks like these days in the face of AI, in the face of so much content on social media? How do you try to set your customer up for success so that they're thinking? you know, of how to reach success, whatever that is for them. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I like to say that content marketing is maybe the second oldest profession, the world's second oldest profession. It's always existed in different ways. What's maybe changed is like the format.
and also how you reach your audience. And so what I would tell them is like, do you know where your audience hangs out online? Do they read blogs? Is that a format that they actually interact with? Is that something that they would even benefit from? You know, are they more hanging out in like communities like Discord and watching YouTube videos and, you know, maybe looking for tutorials that aren't blog posts, but that's still, you know, attack a subject and break it down.
So that's kind of what I think the pivot is for a lot of brands right now is like they've invested so much into search as a channel and organic search specifically. And there's so much. just like wonkiness with how the SERPs are changing, you know, what's Google doing with the AI overviews and AI mode and whatever, to the point where...
I'm not suggesting that people give it up completely. I am always of the mind that you should experiment. You should have your control and you should have your, you know, experiment, whatever. Don't just give up one thing because maybe it's changing. You should still work with it and see if there's a way, if you've already invested, if you've already made that part of your channel at the same time.
If it's not working anymore, you should really consider not doing that. But we have to have some data to work with. Right. It's not like an emotional decision or because Google changed some things. I think what we're realizing with like. AI search, whether it's on Google, whether it's on ChatGPT, whatever, is like a lot of the same SEO principles still apply, at least as far as like create great content, right, that solves.
That answers people's questions, you know, that helps solve their problems. It's an updated game as far as SEO or whatever we want to call it now. Search everywhere optimization. But a lot of the principles still apply. And I think that... One thing I'm realizing as I interact with these new AI tools for the first time, like, you know, Replit, like the vibe coding tools, or like, you know, N8N, whatever, like things that get increasingly more complicated.
Because they're so new, they don't have a lot of, you know, documentation and even like community is kind of like a new thing, right? Because people are just finding the apps for the first time. And so there still is this great need. For brands to be a guide for their users, especially those first time users who can very easily get frustrated. It's new technology. You know, there's just not established.
tutorials from the brands or otherwise i think you know they're catching up on that but you know again if you're an ai tool or Or you have nothing to do with technology. People still need guidance on how to interact with you, what it's like to work with you, how to use your solution. Yeah, I said this similarly. on the Matt Report podcast a couple weeks ago or last week, that it's so hard. Nobody can be certain about anything right now.
I mean there's never been certainty in anything except for death and taxes, right? We've heard that a million times. But like AI is changing at such a rapid pace that nobody can be certain about anything. I have this – I wouldn't call it a feud, but I have like this little debate back and forth with Justin Jackson, who's the creator of Transistor.fm. And like I'm of the mindset that in a couple of years.
Apple will have – you'll have the ability to do what I do with Replit and VibeCode. I think they'll have that same kind of thing on your iPhone. Hey, make me a to-do app. that has a picture of my kids and every time I complete a task a little sound effect plays or it shows me a photo like just random little quirky things that you can build yeah it'll be they'll have it'll be with guardrails around it like you're not gonna it's not gonna give you this replica
interface where you're going to see all the lines of code it's just going to like it's going to have these guardrails around it that says you can build these little mac apps these little ios apps yourself and you can do fun little things um He doesn't think that's going to happen. I think it does. I think it is going to happen. But the point is, is you can't be certain about like how any of this stuff is evolving. Right.
Yeah, the only certainty that I can tell people now that I've been advocating for is to talk to your customers now. Like, don't be that person where your customers start leaving and you're like, why are people leaving? It's because they're like, you're not talking. to them they want that human side because they're going to get a bunch of ai stuff thrown at them so be human now because our goals in the future might literally be I just need to have a human connection with somebody.
And then I'm going to sell you whatever the hell I can sell you, right? Like your business might change to the point where you just need to secure a connection with somebody so that it's not being served up by AI. And that might be the next battleground we're on. Yeah, I mean, communicating with humans, super important. No direct question, but I'm just curious your thoughts on like building that trust with somebody.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's always been important in business and coming from the WordPress world, I think we have such a vibrant and amazing community and some really great friends that have led to... business things too and yeah i just i can't imagine being where i'm at and running my company without having spent a lot of time and effort in nurturing those human connections and so yeah to think that that could
you know, be like harder to attain in the future is a sad thought, but I think we have to keep fighting for it. How are you finding... You don't have to give away any of your secret sauce, but how are you finding customers these days? Are you spending time in particular groups? Like if there's other content marketers out there listening to this and some of the agency folks that do listen to this are helping people with content.
you know, at like a small business level, how are you like cultivating your own enrichment of communities? Like where are you going? What events, what groups, like how does that evolve for you? Totally. Yeah. I mean, I've. been pretty active and just a bunch of... Slack groups. That's been kind of like my way of getting community, especially to like after becoming a parent and not being able to get out as much. That's kind of like my window to the world. So for content marketers, I love.
super path uh top of the funnel uh women in tech seo is another really great one and you know there's there's these slack groups for you know just about whatever interest you have we have a bunch in wordpress too um But I'm noticing, too, that, again, with becoming a parent, that I've... like not just like physically gone out and like gone to conferences and things like that. So I am trying to rebuild that in-person network, you know, with the events that happen in Denver.
And then I guess like the last thing I do is this thing called lunch club where they like randomly pair – well, not kind of randomly. They pair you with a person every week and you have like a 30-minute conversation. Um, and I have it set up for people in Denver so that I could meet them in person, you know, if I wanted to after the call. But yeah, I mean, just, just trying to find it wherever I can, I guess is long and short of it. I'm sure you can relate to this as a parent, like you see...
you see like your other parent friends on Instagram and you're like, you're out at the brewery again. How do you get out of the house? Like, like how are you, who's watching the kids is what I wanted. Yeah. As we sort of wrap up here, what is your outlook on WordPress as somebody who's writing content, again, for other customers, other brands? Is WordPress still...
leading the pack for you? Or are you starting to see customers say like, hey, we've got Webflow, we've got Drupal. Where does WordPress land in the overall adoption in your customers? Sure. Yeah. I mean... I wouldn't say that. So I work with a lot of enterprise. They have like their own, you know, whatever going on. But just like small business owners and things like that. I think WordPress definitely has staying power.
I will say, I think that it will be very necessary for them to adapt the sort of like AI generative, you know, pieces of the puzzle. It's maybe a surprise to me that we can't do that yet, that I can't, you know, and I know I think WordPress.com recently released some kind of feature like that. But again, it's not like the bigger WordPress.org. So it doesn't necessarily affect me yet.
But I think that is like the real key to WordPress sort of like surviving the next era is it's going to have to adapt. And I think like WordPress is always sort of catered to like more like. It caters to technical users, but people that are non-technical users really love it and can get a lot out of it once they get to know it. And so that's really what I'm talking about is catering to non-technical users.
So developing a natural language sounds like a good way to do that. And just to be specific, when you're looking for the AI stuff, is it for the content side of it? Is it for the layout side of it or is it like everything? For me, it would be the design specifically. And like right now I'm using tools like Lovable.
for that you know to whip up like a quick landing page or you know very simple website and for me it's like fun experiments for right now it's not necessarily like something i would you know sell a client or um or even like maybe use as like an official web page. It's mostly for fun. But I'm getting closer to the point where like I would use that as like an official thing for my brand. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
When you use these enterprise CMSs, are you like, oh, these are awesome? Because I think everybody has a stigma of like, oh, God, it's probably super complex, probably old and terrible. But are they really good when you're using them? We don't do a lot of like the uploads to their websites. It's mostly creating content and it's like you do with it what you want when it's done.
But in my past job in college, I had experience working with a bunch of different CMSs. We did Joomla, Drupal, Silverstripe. And that was actually what got me really interested in WordPress because I was like, those ones are all way too complicated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely, obviously, I mean, like.
With WordPress, I don't want to say under attack, but with like a lot of other alternatives out there and with AI, people are like, well, how can we get into the enterprise? It's like, well, we've been asking this for years. So as these prices go up in the enterprise, hopefully – WordPress becomes a little bit more attractive. Yeah. Maddie Osmond, where can folks go to say thanks for doing today's interview? Where can they go to get your book?
So check out Amazon for the book, Writing for Humans and Robots. Look for me on LinkedIn. I'm Maddie Osmond and French is like in a parentheses because that's my official name now. But I told my husband that I'm still going by Maddie Osmond professionally. It's the branding and SEO. You're not going to give it up. Right? I already built this huge content program around that.