Burnout in Entrepreneurship

I don't think you have I know

It was, uh, the, where like, uh, Providence College plays basketball. It was a, you know, venue, a sports arena slash venue. So I was like, well, obviously I'm going to go for the person who has the most money. Dunkin Donuts, right? And they were like, they were like, no, we can't go for that kind of sponsor. I'm like, well, what is, what backwards reality are we in here? I'm trying to raise some money, but anyway, sorry. That, that was my foray into organizing a word camp.

You know, really get a true thank you for that. So I always just kind of show up and go, what can I do? You know, if you need me to fold up chairs, I'll do that. Um, this, this being the first one and the organizing team is so incredible. Um, we w we want it to go into the future. So this is us saying. Thank you. We support you. We're here.

We're, this is a longterm thing, but as you know, since, uh, since the pandemic, it's, it just kind of obliterated some of the word camps and they're trying to feel like they're trying to get back on their legs and stuff, and so it was important to, to be there for this one, um, to help this kind of get restarted. Cause they feel like it's, it's just kind of taking some more time to get work camps back off the ground and.

But what was your, uh, Take away from Canada. Did it look like new people? Young people? What did it feel like? What did the vibe feel like?

not young. I showed a picture, by the way, WordCamp, uh, Chicago, I found 2010 in my talk. And I was like, I'm not this young anymore. I was, I don't know, 33 or some four and I'm like now 48. So I feel like the old, you know, the elder walking in, but, um, you know, a lot of, uh, faces that I know for sure, but then a mix of people still doing cool stuff with WordPress that showed up and just, just takes time and effort for people to.

You know, block off from their workday and met a lot of WordPress agency owners across Canada, and it's, uh, it's, it's exciting to see that there's still the fires are still burning. You know, it's about everything that's happened.

talking about building blocks in JavaScript, like, that's not for me, I, I just want to know how to use this platform. I think one of the great things is, is there, there are days, uh, I forget, I don't know if they call them training days, I forget what the name of it is, it's like the first day, it's not the contributor day. Well, the contributor day is there, but don't most WordCamps also have a day where you can just show up and be like, help me,

And I think that's, You know, what you might be alluding to is just, it's tough for like, you know, an agency owner, they're out there trying to sell client work, deliver client work, and then to come. And it feels probably more networking across the times I've been around where I get it. They're very passionate about WordPress. They kind of come to network with their colleagues, but for something just for them.

In fact, one of the people that works for Automatic And as a full time contributor to the community project, you know, I'm slipping our name, I'm still in travel fog, but very passionate about, and it was mentioned like at WordPress agency summit. And I was like, Hey, we're all in. I think there's a lot of build for that, but a focus thing to just help those like you have ran an agency in the past, you know what you're doing and talk about those key issues. So I hope that happens.

Uh, what was the one loop comp was the one that Ryan, I think Sullivan did. Like we've seen all this before and we're like, Oh yeah, like we have those, we've had those. So it's almost like we forget that these new people coming in are like, no, what we want, we want more content. We want different content. You know, we want that business where we want hardcore development.

Um, and, and I I'm hoping that the foundation and the word camp Uh, teams are starting to think in that and I hope it's more open because I think even Matt's recent, um, summer, I think he called it like the summer address or like the summer update of, of WordPress, you know, he mentioned about themes, like themes and wordpress. org, uh, Hey, we, we should be a little bit more loose. We should be a little bit.

you know, more lenient on like the strict, here's a theme and here's what it should do. Like I hope that kind of spreads into, into the word camps because I don't see any other way to really facilitate these different tracks. And, and I know the work is in, in motion, but with most things open source and WordPress, it's going to take some time, but I really hope, uh, you know, that this stuff really, you know, kicks in because I think a lot of people want it.

So they went to the colleges and they started training people in WordPress and you're like That's incredible. That's what we need. Get to, like you said, the new, the new people to WordPress, perhaps the younger generation, help them see, like, look at this awesome platform and ecosystem and get them in. We need those types of things. I think coming back into the ecosystem and his was a great example. He showed pictures of the. The word camp and all the people.

And it was a lot of young people that, um, kind of getting into tech and then doing this particularly. And I think we need more of that, but it was a great example of what we probably need to start doing, I think, as a ecosystem.

Um, I, I should really dig into it, but when I hear that, I understand as somebody who ran a WordPress meetup locally to me and, you know, The corner of nowhere you've been here before, Corey, we're not in a big area. Um, I can understand like the bureaucracy, the red tape, like, Oh, you got to do this. And it's just like, Hey, I'm just trying to get people together. To talk about WordPress, like, do I have to do all this stuff?

Or will you just let me get five or six people in a coffee shop and I can use meetup so, and I can, when I hear that, when I see like, Hey, there's an official and an unofficial in, in the UK, which is obviously a big map, uh, to cover, uh, I can understand like, look, there's gotta be some loose. Agreements here on how this works. Like, what are we getting for the official WordPress meetups? And what do we, what are we missing on the other side?

So if we don't do the official channel, like what, what are we missing? Is it topics? Is it funding? I don't even think they do that anymore. They used to pay for like pizza, um, the meetup page and it gets inside of WordPress, but do we have to jump through all these hoops to get that? Or just let us, let us meet up and connect with WordPress. Like that's the best part about it.

Like you doing it in your local community, building that enthusiasm, energy for what it's doing and connecting into something bigger that built into these. And they're a huge part of the marketing. They're a huge part of the community support where we're all remote. So when we get to actually like rub elbows and talk shop, like we did at WordCamp Canada, it's, it's a, such a good.

Time to gel that like, okay, there's other people just as passionate as me out there, but I think You've grounded it back into it needs to start very very local and how do we how do we resource that?

Um, and so sharing the, before the buildup to that, How that six months was kind of crazy, um, and resetting for me now, and then some takeaways for how to do work better for who I am now, what I can do. Um, like I was mentioning, I'm older now. I can't just grind, grind, grind. Uh, I've got to take care of my body. Got to maybe slow things down a little bit, uh, which is tough.

So. And I feel like that's part of, you know, even if we didn't have pandemic, I think us that do remote work, you and I, and most WordPress is we're kind of in our little home offices doing cool stuff. And maybe we're meeting on zoom, but we're not getting as much of that. social interaction. And, uh, you know how it is. I think you and I personally talked about these things. Just like that. Living the entrepreneurial life is a plus 100 to all that.

Cause it's, you know, you're grinding, you're doing these things just like you do with this. You've got a day job. You do these other things cause you're passionate about it. But over time, how that kind of builds up and you're like, I just don't want to be in there Hmm.

And like, I can feel it because I'm like, I avoid it. I avoid it. I'm not even telling myself. Don't do it. I'm avoiding it at all costs and then I like a week goes by and I and I start to realize Wait a minute. You've been avoiding this thing It's because it's not getting done and you're you're not happy about it not getting done And you're also like mad that you still wanted that you're fighting your own self to do it And then you that's when I start to realize oh my god.

I need to either shift gears and or reevaluate. Sometimes it's just reevaluating the priorities of it and starting with like something super simple to just like, get back into the rhythm of things. Um, but then there's just major shifts where I can feel this thing on repeat. Don't want to do it anymore. Not happy with it. I got to find something else and really change that trajectory of the thing that's burning me out.

Um, do you have like an indicator that you, That you recognize, that you lean into when you're like, Oh God, I can feel it coming and I need to adjust and strategize.

And how I translate that is, and you just share, you shared that, like you're, you're, you're consciously aware of those things. Me, I was like, go, go, go. But it was no progress. Feelings of like things aren't, I'm not, what I'm doing isn't working. Now you and I raise our hands, entrepreneurship. You can just say right there, boom. Um, but like in, in any kind of work is I'm not getting things done. I don't feel any progress. Second one that hit me was bad attitude.

And, you know, you're oftentimes the person I can vent to professionally about some of these, and you have, thank, thank you, by the way, is like, when it's not working, I start to get a bad attitude about it. Like, it's just, and that's where that negativity, cynicism, for me, it was, uh, frustration led to anger, led to, um, resentment, led to bitterness. And. I had gotten there where nothing's working. I'm bitter.

And, you know, in retrospect, it's always easier, but you know, looking how it kind of domino down when frustration isn't handled properly. How did it go to anger for myself in reflection? The last I'll say this was the inciting event for me, Matt, because those two. At any point, if I'd been opening about it, we, you and I had been talking, I've been like, you probably saw it, but really bad attitude, right? Not making progress. But the third was key.

I think this is the one that tripped everything just kind of fell apart was I broke my foot, uh, the physical part of it. And I was mentally and emotionally exhausted from the other two, but the third was the one that everything came crashing down. I broke my foot racing barefoot, my kids in the backyard. And I just happened to, it's, uh, called the seismoid on your big toe, happened to hit a rock right perfectly.

And there's supposed to be, I guess, two bones that kind of fuse together when you're a kid. And it just little bitty fracture in that foot. I haven't, there's nothing I could do about it. There's no surgery. It'll just make it worse. So I limped around for four or five months on a post op boot. Cause that was the only thing I could do that wouldn't hurt.

But what they did physically to me, it's just kind of tilt my body and almost three years later, I've just now starting to feel better because that little break kind of cascaded through my body, limping around my hips route, you know, my back, um, those of us that sit in the chair and do computer work all day, kind of resonate with it, I'm sure. But that was the point I was like, wait a minute, body. You, you've been just the go, you can just go, go, go.

And I was pushing it to it and just broke. So I put the picture up of, you know, your car dashboard and all the lights, you know, the speed is zero, everything's off and it's just lights going broken. That's how I felt. But if that event didn't happen, I probably would've kept trying, you know, to go, but that's what really, okay. Now, Corey, you know, I tried to come back to my. Work. I think you and I, I was probably talking to you about all this during this time too, Matt.

Um, I tried to go back after winter break over the, in 2021 and I couldn't get near a computer without feeling sick. There's nothing wrong with my, like nothing was going on in my stomach or anything, but my stomach would hurt. My inner energy would just vanish. It was like, and I'd have to go lay down and I was like, hold on a minute. What is this? Cause I prided myself on. Work and join work.

Like, if I didn't care, right, about content that I was putting out or clients I was serving, and maybe that's even too harsh, I think, There's a, you know, if you were doing, uh, even to keep it in the website side of, of things, like if you just did a thousand dollar websites, that's what you did. It's 1000 bucks. This is what it is. I do it on repeat. I build the system. I launch, I go, I get customers, I bring them in. I do ads. I bring them in launch repeat.

There's a. Certain certain level of like almost like manufacturing there where maybe you feel like a little bit disconnected from the business and you can shut the laptop off and go because you're not thinking creatively like am I making an impact on these people? Like, am I really helping their businesses? And maybe you are, but especially in this content business.

Or in community business, like you've been in with post status, like it's so hard to evaluate to just be like, okay, revenue, okay, great revenue, right? But these are humans that you're trying to like corral and do things with and leave an impact and man, the emotional rollercoaster. Off the charts. And you know, I see this all the time. People are like best WordPress newsletter and it's not yours. And you're like, what the fuck? Like, ha, I've been doing this man for years.

And you're my friend. How are you saying this out loud? Like I'm doing this thing forever. And you don't think, but you know, this is all, uh, you know, this is all, uh, perspective. Like people, you know, might not look at you as your newsletter, but you get so attached to this stuff that it has like this visceral, um, impact on you. Positive, negative, you know, or neutral. It's a tough space.

I loved that it was an identity that resonated with me. But the problem for me was I cared so much and a lot of things factor into this. But I didn't, wasn't willing to take that helmet off. Like I didn't, I didn't want to, I couldn't fathom not being this either. So cared so much. You try to help people impact purpose. Like you're talking about a hundred percent. That's the entrepreneurs. We are purpose and profit, right? Two. They're, they're both, they have to go together.

But, uh, for me that care and then survival, okay, what am I going to do? I want to make a living that profit part of the purpose. I want to be paid to do this work for other people. And, um, all of that fed into feelings of intent where I was like, I couldn't fathom not being off work for six or being off work for six months, or. Not being an entrepreneur.

And so I forgot in that whole thing, it sounds obvious now, but I've forgotten all that thing through all of these different things you've kind of shared that I say, you did. Oh, it was me. You know, I was the space suit, the entrepreneurial tech entrepreneur. And didn't, you know, finally through a lot of just growing older and evolving, growing as a person, I hope, um, realized like that was an old worn out costume for me and it was okay to maybe go, maybe there's something else.

And that's what led me to even put my resume together and even being a two, my friends over there and see if there was something, because. Uh, I was willing to finally take that off and go, okay, I'm very proud of what I've done during that period of time. Maybe there's a point when I become an entrepreneur somewhere way, way, way, way, way down the road. I'm not saying never to that, but like for now I'm okay taking it off.

And that was a lot of work. Mental physical emotional to get there.

I don't need a thousand hard drives filled with the last decade worth of work that I've done because it is not me and I don't want to carry it forward because I want to change. Like, I want this to end.

I'm an executive producer for an audio documentary with a fictional twist on it Celebrating a lot of radios most impactful moments in history, and it's a six part audio documentary doing it with a producer friend of mine Never done it before. I know nothing about being an executive producer. I'm fundraising right now and doing some marketing for it But I'm not the you know, I'm not speaking into a microphone for it for the first time. I'm not writing a script I'm not researching.

I'm not creating anything and I'm like, this is the next thing whether it's Successful or not. Like this is just like the next thing that I need to you know, keep moving forward to Little deep little

But you know, what I heard in that real quick is, you know, a decade of doing all this, but there's a passion underneath it, it just happened to be focused on WordPress for this last decade, web design work, the internet, things like that, the passion I've always seen you is you love this. Talking, having these conversations vocally with video and, you know, having those getting to the heart, really addressing the conversations. That's a part of you.

Now, this is just your friend sharing their perspective. I've seen this over and over. So for maybe a decade, it's been focused on this topic. But could you, you're being willing to change a role and perspective in it. But the passion is what's to me is burning underneath that, which is your love for this type of work. That's what I had to push down and get to for me. And I love creative work.

So when I took off some of the barriers that that helmet, the entrepreneurial helmet did and realized like, I could actually, okay. If I take one layer off, which is. I will work with somebody else for somebody else. Um, could I still do the creativity that I love that drives me? And I found it with this particular role for this season of time.

And I'm so thankful for it because when I can just take off some of that, maybe it was pride, hubris, whatever it was, um, you know, being in the bold entrepreneur kind of thing. Okay. Take that off for a second. I can apply the bold, the innovation to other things. And that's what I heard. And you're sure that connects with me. Is there's still a seed that's not burnt out, right? There's this passion, whatever we call it inside that drives, kind of drives us, keeps our fire going.

And when we hit these dead ends, which I have, um, going, okay, maybe there's another thing I could apply that same thing to, and where I'm thankful. They created this role for me. I just said, I marketing, I think is my thing. You know, what would that look like? And they, you know, Paul, the CEO over there was like, well, this role. And I was like, Oh my God, you see me, you value me for this.

And I want to spend some time in that and not have to worry about these other things I did as an entrepreneur.

So I go and I take all of my skill set and I say, this is what I'm really good at here. I want to connect with other people, make partnerships,

give you ideas on how to run the team. Uh, how to, uh, uh, maybe do things with the product features, bells and whistles, things like that. And of course, a tribute to, to marketing. Because I love that message and I, and I love the fact that I can represent Gravity Forms and say, it's the best form builder for fill in the blank. Right? And it's just a mission that I'm attached to. And really passionate about, right? And I think that there's there.

That's like an inroad to be like, it's okay, man. Like you don't need to, you know, this crazy idea of, you know, running this entrepreneurial empire because it could still come on, you know, you could still do something and you're still associated with post status. Obviously we're going to talk about that in a second, but even the work that you're doing at a two, there's still room there to be like, Hey, you know what? Maybe I'll just start spinning up my newsletter and my blog again.

And I start like, that's my creative outlet. Yeah. Along with my career and that's totally fine.

It's just, you look around, it's a cycle, right? And we go, okay, is burnout telling us these things? Like for me, Hey, maybe there's something else and better for me, for the world. And, but that belief in care, I think is what we're kind of talking about that seed below. And. Could there just be another way to express that in the world? Absolutely. We've chose the two businesses we're at because we believe in care. So we get to apply these talents to them, but that the seed is still there.

And if it's aimed somewhere else, and that's what I, I had put artificial limits on myself by going, I'm an entrepreneur. I can only do this. I can't work for anybody else. I don't want to work. And releasing that helped me to go. Oh, I could actually do it for somebody else, take some of these things off that were like crushing me, focus on these things and I'm getting to do these deeper.

Like I've done in a very, I would say more informal way in my head at least, community and evangelism and all these things.

Where it can be stressful, but it can also be, you know, nice because work's getting done and you're somewhat profitable, but you're not ultra profitable. And this is what I saw. Um, Well, you know, go back to story history and my family ran car dealerships for 45 years in our community, but then ran an agency for a decade with my dad. And there's something about like when you're stuck in the middle, especially with an agency role.

Um, It's easy to fall in and slot into that meaning you're not profit You don't have enough business coming in with enough profitability to expand and and scale the business to get to the next step But you're but at the hard times you're not small enough to cut back like costs without literally like getting rid of people You're not small enough because the projects that you're trying to take in are somewhat pretty heavy, right and you need You need more of them to get to the next step, but you

also need to be profitable to get to that next step too. It's a supremely hard balance. And when you're stuck in that middle ground, it can be hard to identify it because it's seasonal and it can be years long. And you're just like three, four years later, like, why haven't we grown? Like we're not out of business, but we haven't grown. And the hard times are kind of hard, right? Because we can't really shrink it down because we we've built up this overhead. Um, It's tough in that business.

And I don't know if plugins, I guess software can fall in that same category. Um, where you kind of just stay in the middle, you don't realize that you're not growing, but you don't want to get rid of it kind of thing. Uh, but those are things like when I look at helping anybody with whatever content creation or business, I'm just like, are you stuck in that middle? And can you either maximize like a huge growth spurt? Like, can you go up market? Are you ready for that?

Or is there a way to just like cut the fat and just drop down to A lower level with less overhead. Doesn't mean you're smaller, but you just have less overhead, and you can manage it and have more breathing room at the end of the day.

And The business and so the middle when you said that you're like you're in the middle of that Like okay, if we don't make this get this project and take this project down And get that revenue. It's not just mine. It is my own family supported by this work. It's also my team and different things. And that just collectively adds up over time. And so it's so different because you go like someone from the outside could go, Oh, you should have separated your identity from your business.

Very, very easy to say if you haven't lived it very, very easy to say the hard medicine is like, well, let's acknowledge. If I don't get that project, I've got to figure something out for my family and my team financially. If, I mean, if, if I don't keep going, then I'm not surviving. And it's constant survival mode in many times, seasons of life of an entrepreneur. Um, and it just all cumulatively adds up. So most of us stumble into this. Not many of us go, I'm going to go do that.

We like woke up one day and had an agency or product business or whatever business it was. And you kind of, kind of get in that for me, it was just kind of blended over time and it compounded. And I'm like, Oh, this isn't working now. I have two children. You have kids like. I didn't want to start the business. Now I do. I want more diversity. So that is the constant struggle. And, uh, it's, it's Island life.

You know, it's in the middle of an ocean by yourself, because who can you talk to about these things? You're carrying the world on your shoulders. It's survival mode. How am I going to eat next? How are we going to do? And that's why it's so isolating and what I love talking and working with entrepreneurs, because I'm like, I get it. This is a tough thing we've chosen to do. Yeah.

What else can we help with? How can we support you best? Sometimes it's just hearing. Okay. I'm, I'm dealing with this, uh, project management is something we hear a lot, right? Okay, cool. Then that kind of could come into connecting them with somebody internally, externally that we know, but also sharing some content that gives them an idea or an

inspiration for that challenge. Knowing. Every business, every business owner is different, but that's really what is showing up as truly the collaborator. I'm using collaborator, not partner because partners got so lost meaning in all this. How do we just show up and go, we're here to help you. What can we do and try to do that? And that's not all clear just yet, but we know some of the issues they struggle with.

Um, the other component is like you said, showing up at WordCamps and just connecting with people. So we'll be at WordCamp US, our team is in charge of that. This is new for both Katie and I, and so it's going to be fun, but that's just one facet of like how we try to connect with people in person and offline.

What was it like?

But, um, But I can share values that we espouse and connect to, and then find somebody to help with some of the specific answers. I wouldn't say it was antagonistic at all. Um, I think one thing I've always valued from the hosting industry overall is they do have the money. You can't really run WordPress without hosting. So, um, but they also support an undergird. The things like WordCamp, like for the sponsorship, it's expensive.

An agency owner or product company might not have the money or feel the value of it, but a hosting has done that. And I hope they keep all of us, not just a two, uh, all the hosting companies recognize, like, if we don't support this, it's going to wane. We have to show up and do that. So there's some responsibility in my opinion, we showed up. That's why we had a micro booth this year.

I'll have to send you a picture so you can share it, but it was like, Katie got me a little stand because we had a shared booth for this year because our team's still getting budget and things like that together. But it was like, we pulled up the little eight by 10 stand. I was like, this is hilarious, but trying to show our support for WordCamp Canada. Next year, when you do it, we'll be better equipped to kind of show up and help. Really, really, truly support you.

Um, yeah, I, I think I find it very open. Most people are very open. You always get the, and we want to hear them, the problems that happens. I will say though. You and I could probably guess them right now. What the ones you hear over and over, you know, support, right. Product for sure is in there. And the, but really the third is value. And you go, no, we always want to hear that, but we kind of get a sense. Like we have to do those three things over and over and over at a high clip.

And, um, we just know that's part of the job, but the other side is we're trying to explore is how, how could we show up Better for you as a true partner collaborator. We're still figuring that out.

astronomical, right? And it really has me worried about the future of funding for WordCamp. So, um, yeah, there's definitely going to be some, some play there in, in how we structure these, on these in person events, maybe bringing it down to a certain number count, uh, just the, the, the pillar events in, in the different continents. And maybe that's what we ended up with, but, um, yeah, costs and everything are, are, are quite high, uh, and a lot of work at the same time.

Um, Wrapping up, folks are wondering, Hey, what about this post status thing? You got it. It's yours. Uh, you brought on Yost as a partner as partners, a few ish years ago. I'm forgetting when, uh, last year. What's the,

how do you, do you do like a 10 percent post status thing? Like, how do you keep that balance now so that you can keep everything under control and not, you know, burn out and get overwhelmed with having dual roles and being a dad.

It needs to exist in the world, even if I had to step away, there's another thing that kind of played into all of this, which is can that business support full time team? And at the moment it couldn't, um, last year with economic stuff happening, uh, a lot of the same companies we're talking about hosting companies, which are our sponsors. Um, as you know, something, a common frustration, you and I share, um, how to cut budgets. And the first thing to go is sponsored media.

And so that was simultaneous with me stepping aside or back was, okay, let's do this. The fuel, the money that supports this just wasn't there. It kind of went out because of all these conditions and things. And so stepping aside was one to keep it going and lighter financially while we kind of get through this. Um, you know, rough season financially for us, uh, to get on the other side.

And if we can just survive through it, keep community there glued together going, which is Michelle is awesome at that. And frankly, slack community just kind of goes because we crave it. We crave that interaction with our colleagues, um, to get to the other side. When things start coming back, which we're already hearing indicators of, it's a constant frustration. You and I've shared, uh, that we need support for media within WordPress or it's not going to happen. That's just a fact.

So we need these to come back. We need those budgets to come back. The people running those wanted to happen. It's just. You know, and I see this from the other side now. It's like, okay, we got to make it happen.

Um as best we can And so that was that all played into it and also my personal journey It was time for me to kind of take the hat off not be the operator of that Let somebody else that has energy like michelle run it and get through this patch And start to try to build build on to what we were doing

the, on the show is, um, you know, younger, yes, but also coming into the space, like, I only know page builders, so really, I'm here to work with WordPress, but I don't, I don't love WordPress, like, I'm not in love with WordPress, which might be a good thing, uh, for some of us to realize, uh, but like, they don't know the community because they came in from a whole other thing, and they, they were never, like, at a WordCamp Trying to figure out how to do the thing with WordPress.

Like we were 15 years ago, right? Cause it was all, it's all, it's all been solved, right? It's either solved in the page builder or WordPress itself has already solved it. So they're not hacking away in the hallways, sitting on the floor with me, you Pippin, like all these people, like from back in the day, like trying to do this thing with Edd and you know, all this other stuff. Um, so there's a whole new type of person I'm curious.

One maybe from the A2 perspective, but also from the post status perspective. There's like a whole set of folks Which I'll put in a box in Facebook groups and then those from from what I gather none of them know few of them know about Post status slack like it's two different two totally different worlds two totally different types of folks I've been trying to spend some time Getting to know that crowd and what they're after and what they're looking for in WordPress.

From what I can tell, a lot of them are looking more from like the business side. Like, Hey, this is just a tool for us. We like it. We like the tool that we're using. We're actually super passionate about this tool that we think it's the best tool. Um, but we're also really here to just like grow a business. I'll go to a WordCamp, but I'm not, I'm not in it like you guys are. Do you feel that?

And do you have ways that maybe you'll try to like bridge that gap if at all with either post status or work at A2?

Um, they just haven't crossed the threshold and gone into a WordCamp or shown up at a post editor or, you know, they may be reading and listening to WP minute, but kind of as, okay, that was one tool. Like at WordCamp Canada, there was a couple of WordPressers now who have now shifted into Drupal and you go, those are great tools too. You know? So I agree. I think it's like the WordCamp DePaul organizers going to the colleges and. People interested in tech going, here's a thing called WordPress.

It is a tool that they can use and perhaps make a great career out of it. But I think you're right. Like we need to go outside of the bubble and also realize

they're not going to get a tattoo of WordPress on, you know, on themselves, like, but they do believe in the core philosophies, but they're not going to say it's just this. And there's so much opportunity out there and people doing really good work. So connecting with that from A2 and POSETS for sure, our focus, because, you know, like this, this camp particularly is like, you do see a lot of the people that are there and they're there because they really believe and care about it.

Um, but there's so many more that go awesome tool. Cool. You know, let's get out there. That's just the harder work to reach them, but we need to do that. And we are trying to do that in both those companies.

If that's your feeling, because it's only going to detract from the overall, um, Bigger picture and the longevity of the project. What I've been trying to say is it's okay to, and this is the part I'm struggling with and I don't know how to frame it. Maybe you can help me like to, to take from WordPress. Like you can also take from WordPress, meaning just use it and, and don't get consumed by it where you are.

Uh, either get burned out or get hindered to the point where like you, you just want to throw your hands up and just say, um, it's not worth it for me to even care anymore. So it's okay to take from WordPress, whether it's a service, you start a services business, you are creating a plugin and selling it, you're doing courses, you're doing content, whatever it is. It's okay to, to absorb that because that's what everyone else is doing, but at the same time, don't forget to invest.

In WordPress, I'm having a hard time like packaging that as like a, as a statement, but that's the way I feel like some people, it's okay, man, like it's, it's whenever you give back and, and, and contribute back to this project, however it is that you're doing it, whether you're a cheerleader or a core developer. As long as you're doing that. And then it's okay to say, I'm also profiting from this too. I'm taking my piece of this too, because that's what everyone else is doing.

And I'm not going to worry so much that I'm the one that's getting left behind. That's what I struggle with. As you can tell, I don't know if you have a different thought on that.

That's why people contribute. Um, the other thing I would probably add to yours and say, I wholly agree with all of it is, Okay, when you get going, and you're using it, and you're seeing the power, and you're thankful that it's here, that you got to do that, then, not that you have to pay this huge cosmic debt back, but like, It's as simple giving back contributing is simple as helping somebody else or mentioning WordPress is a great tool.

The tool, maybe even if you feel that passionate about it and being an evangelist for WordPress. I mean, I think we get because it's a code project. Think if and I have felt this if I can't. Contribute code to it. I'm not giving back. That's a misnomer, but I've held that for a long time. I'm not a developer, all this stuff, but could I talk about it, share it, talk, you know, use them a business to say, by the way, we built this on WordPress. And part of this is it's free and open source.

And so many people, the 40 plus percent of the internet have built it. Built on this because of thousands and thousands of people over 21 years have contributed to it. That's contributing that's evangelizing WordPress to others. And like this person that organized in Nepal, helping train, whatever those strengths gifts are that you have using that for the benefit of open source thousand percent.

And I think we've probably do it internally, but make it bigger debt than we think it is, where it's just should come out of thankfulness.