Matt Cromwell. Welcome to the WP Minute. Hey, thanks for having me. I forgot to say 9999th Matt.
Nice. It's so old hat at this point.
You know, the great thing is though, I'm going to press. Are you going to press comp? I am. I wasn't. Oh God. Can't wait to see. Thinking I would, but I am. I'm going.
I'm gonna see you there.
I can't wait to see you. And yeah, I think that's where this whole thing started. This whole, like you're the. 18th mat. I'm the third mat kind of thing.
It could have been, it could have been one of those. Or Orange County or something like, actually, I don't know. I've never been to Orange
County. Never stepped foot in it. No, no. Yeah, San Diego, either Diego, like that whole San Diego region. a lot of folks from around my area transplant to is San Diego, orange County, roughly in the same, is that all the same?
Yeah. No, it's all Southern California, but yeah. All the smart folks go there, right? All
the, yeah. Yes. It is like 50. No, I shouldn't even say that. It's 43 degrees today and I'm like, I, you know, when, when Is there ever gonna be four Seasons, like folks promise in New England? Yeah. anyway, great to have you back on the show. We're here to talk about some stuff that Stellar has launched, is launching, has launched, set the stage for us. What is the new product and how can folks find it?
We are on the Verge, as of right now, April 16th, of, launching our biggest product, as a brand, which is Stellar sites. And, it's a big deal for us because it does change the narrative. Quite a bit in terms of Stellar, WP is now a go-to market brand. whereas before a lot of folks thought of us as an umbrella brand for a lot of different various products. but it's come together in a really great way. we're really excited about, what it is and what it does.
and it's, something that we put a lot of heart and soul into. So
how does this go beyond the, Hosting with, let's say hosting with Cadence pre-installed, how does it go beyond this kind of offering?
Yeah, so I think uh uh, one way to navigate that question a little bit is like, you could think of like a WP N Engine and Kinta. They're like, host all your WordPress stuff with us kind of thing. Or you could think about Elementor that does hosted Elementor, right? We could have done like. Sites or whatever. but Stellar as a whole is bigger and broader than just, Cadence, which cadence is awesome and amazing.
but, we're actually using our stellar products to niche into the specific verticals that we feel like have a lot of potential, a lot of options. cadence and solid WP in particular, they really help give a foundation for any website that you wanna build. but then those, those verticals that we're gonna lean into are of course, the nonprofit sector where Give is kind of. Excel and the events calendar as well. Actually. we're also gonna lean in on, the LMS area with Learn Dash of course.
And then, with, events, you can also lean in there and then also with WooCommerce. So every single, site that we sell through stellar sites is immediately a cadence and solid WP site, but you also have the ability to go into one of these four verticals of a store, an event site. A learning site, a fundraising site, as well. So more of a niche, WordPress hosting environment, rather than a catchall hosting environment.
I'm wondering how much you can, show us behind the scenes with this question, but how much of this was driven this decision to, launch stellar sites? How much of this decision was. Because folks would get your end product and be like, oh God, I don't know how to use this thing. Like, I, I thought I could just install, give WP and I, I, this is just too cumbersome and it's not the fault of your own product. It's the fault of just WordPress at large, right?
Like, take this thing, put it in this thing over here. You probably don't even know what that thing is over there. And now you just have to make it work with all the other stuff you have. How much of that. Scenario has played into the decision to do this? Or is this just like, Hey, new opportunity, let's try to bundle this stuff and package it up in that loosely used word, SaaS kind of, yeah. Mentality.
I think it's more the latter rather than the, than the first, honestly. the. When it comes to the first problem, like in terms of you're gonna get one of our products and then you're in a WordPress environment and you might struggle a bit, we really had a couple different things that told us that no matter what we do here, yes, we wanted to feel kind of like more like a competitor to a Wix website or a competitor to a Squarespace website for sure.
We wanna also be super transparent that it's not a cookie cutter situation like Squarespace or Wix. It is still WordPress and you still do need to have a DIY mentality when you go into a WordPress website. So trying to play a little bit of both there because it's a little bit disingenuous for any WordPress host to be like, Hey, just get in here and then everything will be great and fine and dandy.
it's still WordPress and you still gotta get hands on with it, and we're trying to be transparent about that front, but the opportunity is. That we do think that the suite of tools that Stellar has been, accumulating over the last few years really do, amplify each other in really special ways, and that the opportunity really is to combine them and for you and our customers to be able to get kind of the benefits of all of our worlds, not just, in the individual paths.
Walk me through the experience if you can. Somebody says, I want a fundraising site. They click a button, to purchase this site. Is this ready-made WordPress where just all of your products, are just, are pre-installed? how does one say, oh, I have a donation site now, nonprofit donation site. I feel good. Like I, I'm, I'm ready to go. Like, how do, how do you smooth this over like again? Yeah. Knowing that this is still early days for you. 'cause I can, I totally understand.
Like the ramp up to something like this.
Yeah, yeah. Totally. So another interesting, thing that happened very recently is wordpress.com launched this AI builder, right? And you did a great little segment on it, showing, the thing, I was probably recording a loom internally at Stellar at the same time you were recording yours honestly. and. They went to market saying AI builder. We actually also built an AI builder a long time ago.
Cadence AI is really powerful and amazing, and we're not going to market with seller sites as an AI builder. It's not an AI builder. AI is a feature. it's a tool that makes things nicer and easier for folks. And when it comes to like, I wanna build a fundraising site, there is a path, when you get into stellar sites. You start without even giving us your email or anything with, cadence AI essentially.
And it will, walk you through building out your fundraising website all the way till you get to actually see it, visually. And then it's like, oh, that's exactly what I want. And then you click the buy button. You go through the purchase and then the site that you built gets propagated and you get to land right into that site right away. So like, like I said, it's not an ai it, we're using AI of course, and it is an AI builder, but it's just an onboarding experience.
It's gonna optimize the way in which you experience all of our products together. And you're ideally gonna get a big headstart towards the website that you actually want. not just the idea of a website that you want. Yeah.
I think one of the criticisms I had, for the.com AI builder, and it's not just them. I mean, it's, it's literally like every, every site that one might launch with WordPress is, okay, great. Like you helped me get to from point A to point, let's say d in this case, with the.com AI builder. you've made some pages for me. You've put some temporary content there. There's some like placeholder images and, and that was quite.
Enjoyable right from that video, and I'll try to link that up in the show notes. But the issue is, is for the, the type of, in my opinion anyway, the type of customer that's going to use that now doesn't know like why they have what they have. Like ai, why did you build these pages? And you know, in your case you might have on a donation page, on on a donation website. Of course, like the donation form.
But then maybe your system has put in a, a newsletter page and they're thinking, oh my God, I don't even have, I wasn't even thinking newsletter. Why do I need this? So at at what point do you bring in either professional services, if that's even a thing that's gonna happen, or how do you smooth over the understanding of like, this ready-made site for folks?
Yeah, I mean, in many ways it still does go back to that, that WordPress as a DIY solution. I don't mind that little bit of tension where it's like I built something that gets me 80% of the way there. The next 20% is I. Hard for a lot of folks. but that experience of like, okay, here's a whole bunch of content on the page in a layout that I didn't build. And I honestly, when I look at that layout, it's a bit complicated.
but if I want to go and actually put in my own images and my own content there, I'm gonna actually learn. The blocks that create this layout as I'm doing that, I do think that that's the type of customer that we are trying to find are the ones that want to get hands-on, who want to actually, customize it in the way that they feel, really good about it and that are happy with the end product. So, that is, you know, not the absolute, like I would say, cookie cutter folks who just want like.
Gimme a brochure site that works outta the box and I don't wanna mess not those folks necessarily, and not necessarily the big, like I can fine tune everything with H-T-M-L-C-S-S, JavaScript, just let me have the code and I can do it. It's the folks in between, who are happy to do that. So. I, I think that's where we're trying to target for the most part. that doesn't answer your question exactly, but, it gets there.
So one of the things that's sort of like, in the zeitgeist these days is AI coming for our jobs, air quotes. Mm-hmm. Right? Our jobs meaning, the freelancer who, might lose a. A client due to WordPress dot com's, AI builder, possibly even your tool, how do you hedge against that? Is, is this squarely marketed at the end user who wants something easy to use for that solution, or do you see this as an accessory service?
I call it an accessory service to an agency who's like, I'm gonna build you either something custom or we can use this thing over here that's ready made.
It's a good question. Honestly, I think it's worth talking about a year from now. again, honestly, because I'm interested to see who finds the most value here. We definitely have a large, group of agency customers, in our various brands who I think will find this very interesting. one of the great things that we're offering is.
like I said, you are a solid customer right out of the gate and one of the things that Solid has is solid central, and every single person who becomes a Stellar Sites customer automatically has solid central as well. So you could be spinning up additional stellar sites and manage them all directly through solid Central, and it's really powerful tool overall, really perfect for agencies.
So there's benefits that go outside of just the website building that I think will be really attractive for agencies with stellar sites in particular. But I think the target that we're looking for is more of like. The mom and pop shop owner, who wants to make a site that will enable them to have, be successful in their business. in general, like we, I think that's in many ways what we all want.
We want folks to be able to build a website that's gonna help them be successful so that they can spend more time in their actual business, and that the website just empowers them to do better in what they're doing. I think that's what we all want with WordPress in general. Now. What is and what today in terms of that, that's not always the case. and that sometimes WordPress itself gets in the way. that does make the question a little bit more challenging.
I mean, that, you know, you and I talked about these lots of different times over the years. I think that like 10 years ago we all were like, you know, WordPress, can do a lot of things for you, but if you're serious about your website, you're gonna need to hire a pro. Professional for sure. and that changed a bit and then Gutenberg came and it kind of changed everything again. It kind of ebbs and flows over time.
yeah, I do think AI is an opportunity for more folks to get a powerful website quickly, and focus on their business. but again, only to 80% and that last 20% is hard. So.
You might not have a direct solution for this, but I'll advocate for the consultant who's listening to this or the freelancer or boutique agency as a way to pair folks up. Right. You know, there's a, at the time of this recording, there's a, a current debate going on about, $5,000 budget, right? And, there are those that squarely say like, Hey, if you want, if you want to make a real go at having a web business, you should never service customers under this, threshold.
You should only really focus up market because anyone's sub 5,000 isn't thinking about, Their business properly, effectively. I'm kind of paraphrasing the argument, but this is an argument as old as time, like I started mm-hmm. The Matt Report podcast years and years ago, and the biggest question I had was like, what do we do about the $500 website? Right? Mm-hmm. Which was like, you know, you and I probably chatted about that 18 years ago as, as one of the biggest challenges.
I think like most things, it depends, but. Even in the face of ai, I know this is long-winded, but even in the face of ai, yeah, sure you can make an AI website, but the, and you might still pay a consultant $5,000 to figure out what the hell to do with your business. You like, you could hire me and I could build your website for $1, and then for $4,999, you would pay me for my entire experience of how this whole thing works. So this isn't a direct question, but I would advocate mm-hmm.
On your side to maybe find ways to pair up, yeah. Recommended freelancers and agencies with these customers that might be looking for help. Because ultimately it's like I. You made me a nonprofit site and now I need, like, how the hell do I get donations? Mm-hmm. Like how do I raise that awareness? Yeah. Like what do I do next? you know, and I don't know if that's something that maybe your team is gonna service, but if not, maybe pairing that up with, with, a community of agencies. Yeah.
I, you know, you're making me think I, one, one thing I, I love the idea of is an agency that's like, look, I recommend you use stellar sites for your hosting and for your website solution. What you need to do is go through their AI onboarding wizard and purchase your site right away. That will get you 80% of the way there, and then you just pay me to finish it up like.
That's actually a really cool, unique kind of hybrid solution that I, that, you know, it could result in a thousand dollars website. and those folks who are saying don't pay less than 5,000, they won't like that. But at the same time, you know, it's that last 20%. yep.
So, yeah, for sure. Coaching somebody over the co coaching, somebody over that finish line for, would definitely be beneficial. let's talk about the logistics. It sounds like the, there's no additional plugin licensing fees. Like you might go to Stellar and buy these individual, individual plugins, sign up and get these individual licenses. This is gonna be all baked in one, one monthly price. How does that all work out?
Yeah. that's one thing, like from the nerdy, Tech side, I'm actually really excited about the way that we navigated this. A lot of the work that we've been doing to make this possible is on the licensing side in particular. and it, yes, it's all baked in basically. So once you go through and you purchase your site, whether it has. Either just two of our brands or three of our brands or four, and you could add add-ons later.
You get issued a stellar sites license key, and that is valid and good for any of the products that you have purchased along the way. we are having, monthly options to, to renew monthly, and we do of course also have annual plans as well, that come at a small discount. So, that's the great part about it. and we made it so that if a license is issued through stellar sites, then. The Give team, for example, they will see that license in their system.
Even though there's no revenue on their side, they still know that there's a customer there and they can support that person just like normal. so it, that's all worked out really well under the hood. and it's really slick system.
also, honestly, a lot of that infrastructure is just through our licensing, stellar licensing in particular, but also solid central is becoming more and more important in the way that we kind of use that to be a cohesive way to manage a lot of what's going on at Stellar.
put you in the hot seat for a second. Can somebody move away from stellar sites and migrate?
It's WordPress. Absolutely. it, you know, there's, it's open source. you can, you know, build whatever you want, export it out, go somewhere else. for sure. Now there are, you know, per, domain license, restrictions, just like any plugin. But if you come to us and you are like, Hey, I moved my site somewhere else, and it's a different domain now, then we can help turn one domain off and let you do it on the other one. No problem. So.
Is this a new hosting infrastructure, specifically for Stellar, or is this backed by the parent company and the resources already over there? In other words, are you building something brand new in the background to power all this stuff?
There are some things about it that are new. if you, if anyone's familiar with LearnDash Cloud, we definitely are leaning on that experience already. That's the other thing is like, we're not new to this. We've been doing this with LearnDash Cloud already for about a year and a half. we took a lot that we learned from that experience and, and just amplified it and did more. It's definitely what. What a lot of folks probably understand is the Nexus infrastructure.
and, that's what's going on under the hood, but we have kind of beefed it up a bit specifically for stellar side's purposes. there's some really great auto-scaling that happens on the PHP worker side that we're really excited about. there's a really great visual compare tool for auto updates of plugins and themes, that will roll back updates if, if it visually breaks any of your pages. there's a lot of that type of information.
Structure that makes this a really powerful and interesting, hosting stack no matter what. We're trying not to lead, the ME messaging and marketing with like, here's your PHP workers and here's your MySQL version, and here's all of those things. 'cause that's not the, the primary, but all that detail will be there as well.
Which leads me to the last question about the product, pricing. Have we announced that yet? Have we said where it's starting at and, and what the plans are?
I could say the basic, one is that 19 bucks a month, and, it does go up from there in terms of which plan you're, gonna work on. and, we actually feel like altogether, considering the. Plugins that you're getting, and the stack that you're getting as well, that it's actually probably too cheap, honestly.
the, that, so let me just ask that. 19, would that include the suite of plugins?
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. That, that's what I'm saying at the, at the bo at the bare minimum with cadence and solid, built in, 19 bucks a month. Yep.
Well, if you need me to append the show notes with a different price later on, Matt, you just. it sounds like a pretty sweet deal. let's transition to just talking about, one other, important part of WordPress, these days. I just wrapped up a quick three minute and 32nd recap on WordPress 6.8, which launched, I don't know, a couple of days ago. Yeah, a day ago. And, it was quick because there's not much there. And as we all know, WordPress 6.8 is the last major release.
So we're told, for the rest of 2025, and, we'll have a sprinkle or smattering, whatever word you want to use of minor updates throughout the rest of the year. What are your thoughts on this being the final major release of 2025? And what does your outlook hold for, for the improvements of WordPress moving forward?
Yeah, it's a really good question. Overall. one that we can debate from a several different angles. I'll say the angle that I feel like I can control. there's the whole conversation of like, why in the world is it the, the wand release and is that good for WordPress and things like that. I don't have a lot of control over that part. but I think what we do in terms of folks who commit to help in the WordPress community. I actually feel like I'm ready for slow releases right now.
I feel like there's a lot to be said about this release not being full of a bunch of drastic change, but instead a lot of net sum improvements. I really like seeing all the performance improvements that were baked into it. I really like seeing the accessibility focus that was put into it. I think there's a big, case. For the next, small releases and even the next couple large releases, basically being very similar to this one.
a lot more of taking what is there and just making it even more stable, more of a UI improvement, more beneficial as a, as a platform. Rather than, trying to reach at like, it, like if we did a, a 6.9 and it was like, WordPress is now this giant AI builder thing, I'd be like, oh geez, I'm tired. Like, I like the incremental approach. and I think that, that will be just fine from a platform and a software project perspective.
Matt Cromwell, all just aside, it's always great to have conversations with you and catch up and think about the future of WordPress. Where can folks go to find out more about Stellar pages?
Stellar
sites,
stellar sites? Go to stellar wp.com. It's big right there on the homepage. and, we'll be, selling it there. So
fantastic stuff. I'll be looking forward to seeing you at press conf in just about a week from now. I played disc golf last year. Did I tell you that? No. It was insanely challenging. Yeah. It's not what
people think it is.
No, no. I played with, my friend who lives, just about an hour north of, Orlando, Florida. And it was hot. Like it was hot. Like I played golf, regular golf, you know? And it often gets hot and there's no shade, but it's like a searing heat versus when I was playing disc golf, we were like in the woods and it's sort of like a jungle in Florida. Yeah. So it's just like an intense steam heat. And, bugs and branches. I'm like, what? Wait a minute. Where's the enjoyment in this?
And maybe it was just that course that I played, but I was like, wow, how does Cromwell do this?
Yeah. Florida's not my favorite place, honestly. so I don't, I, I can sympathize with that. I played last year at, work camp us in, in Portland. They have a. Gorgeous course out in the woods. it was a beautiful weather. It was cool and shady and wonderful. Mm-hmm. Like it was amazing. Tempe is supposed to be about in the like mid eighties I think, which is not awesome, but it's also not terrible. Right. Super dry. So, and there is a really amazing course there called Shelly Sharp Memorial.
I'm really looking forward to playing there. Cool.
Fantastic
stuff.
Matt, thanks for hanging out today and I look forward to seeing you next week. Same to you, Matt. Thanks.