Get everybody. It's been a it's been school holidays, so I absolutely love school holidays, but it is kind of crazy because I'm trying to feel like I'm trying to live two lives at once because work doesn't necessarily stop.
And we had a beautiful week away up in Queensland with the family, some wonderful time with Snares and the girls, and back into the swing of things this week, and got a really, really wonderful guest in the studio today who is someone that I've never had the pleasure of meeting.
Can't wait to meet her, but her reputation is nothing short of stella, and she is an expert in a really interesting topic something we've never spoken about on this show and perhaps doesn't get spoken about anywhere near as enough in general, and that is OCD. That's something I definitely don't know that much about. Perhaps some of my perceptions are wrong, and I'm hoping to sort of shift those perceptions learn as much as I can. It's a
wonderful Penny Moody. And then we're going to talk about training at night, as I'm getting lots of questions around training later at night now that it's getting lighter longer. That's all coming up in this episode of The Woodlife. So we're having the studio with us today the absolutely lovely Penny Moody, who has just written her first book. Penny is an OCD advocate, social work student, wonderful mum
of three. She's previously worked as a communication especially since mental health not for profits and in the general health sector. She's created a website even called soocd dot com dot au to help people navigate the world of OCD and the book that I was referring to has been wonderfully received. Probably heard about it. It is called The Joy Thief, which is just a beautiful name. Penny, Welcome to the
Woodlife and thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, I mean, I mean, it's really wonderful to have you. It's also Penny's birthdays. And that's embarrassed.
A little text from from a little Birdie giving me the heads up.
But I'm glad. I'm glad I was told because it would have been embarrassing if I'd found that out. No, I know, you wouldn't have been I probably would have found out. Now I feel rude. We just started to have a tiny little chat before coming on air, which is probably not good podcasting. That was about O c D. And I feel there's someone really really close to me in my life that has it, and I probably haven't been very patient. I haven't had a very good understanding
of it. I still don't. But how how did you find out that you had O c D? And what's your story?
Yeah, it was. It's a really long journey for me. I looking back, I would have started to experience obsessions and develop compulsions when I was about six or seven, so really little, really young. I didn't know at the time what was going on, but.
You have memories even from that age.
Yes, I do have very strong memories. The first one being I was so worried that my mum and dad would get into a car accident, and that's a really normal fear for a young kid to have. But to alleviate the anxiety that that thought would bring up in me, I would start to develop these compulsions in these rituals, which in my mind would keep them safe. So that's actually kind of known as magical thinking OCD. So it's
two things that have no logical connection. But every night before I went to bed, I would do these certain rituals and tap on wood a certain amount of times and say a combination of words in a certain way, and in my mind that would keep them safe. Was my responsibility to keep them safe, which sounds so illogical, It is so illogical, but that's just what started to happen.
So already your description is starting to shift my perception of OCD, Like I think of I don't know, Jack Nicholson turning the lights which is ten times, or cleaning people that. Yeah, you know, I can't stop mopping the floor over then the floor is perfectly clean, you know, like that. It's so stereotypical. I know, but that's kind of where my head goes, and probably many others go. But there are so clearly already just unpeeling the onion
a tiny bit, so many different forms of OCD. Is there a definition that you typically go by, just to go back before we go forward?
Yeah, I mean OCD generally it's like the presence of obsessions, which can be you know, unwanted thoughts or feelings or urges or sensations which provoke a certain amount of anxiety, and you then start developing compulsions, so they're repetitive behaviors which to alleviate the anxiety. So generally that's what OCD is.
And the compulsions aren't always very overt, like it could be just ruminating about something over and over and over again, So it doesn't have to be really physical, you know, like the one that people go to often it's like hand washing. That's how I saw it depicted as a young kid. I also saw it depicted as you know Jack Nicholson in As Good as It Gets and what's
his name? In match Stick Men? It was so Nicolay. Yeah, it was always the same sort of thing, and it can play out like that, but it can also be totally different. And I think in those examples they never really showed the like the real distress that it costs. Like you always saw the behaviors, but you never saw the distress that the obsessions provoked in people.
So you're sat at six or seven? Did it get worse? Right? So as the years went on, it got worse and worse and impacted you more and more. Was he getting older and probably more conscious of it and started one more curious about it? What was the gap from seven to actual diagnosis?
Yeah? It was so it generally would flare up during times of upheaval, which is really common. So when I was about eight, we moved overseas for a couple of years, and then the obsessions started to change. So I started worrying that I had AIDS at eight years old. And my dad was working in that area for U and AIDS,
so that's why it was something in my consciousness. But I started worrying that I had AIDS and that I might die of it, but also that I would maybe give it to other people, and that really dominated my thoughts for a couple of years. And to deal with those obsessions, I would do different things. I would do those sort of things like I would wash my hands a thousand times, which I again wouldn't stop you from
getting AIDS. But the main thing I would do was go to my mum for reassurance and I'd ask her multiple times day if certain things I had done could lead to me getting AIDS. And this happened for years, and yeah, it was really tiring.
And did she or did think anything of it? Or was it our kids, you know, like their little quirks that they have that makes them almost so endearing. Was it that attitude or was it.
There wasn't much around OCD at the time, so it didn't they didn't think o CD. I think they thought, gosh, this child is quite anxious and is worried about a lot of different things. But the thing was I was it was so important to me from such a young age to present like a very competent front, like I was doing well at school, I had lots of friends, I was still functioning. But this was all happening kind
of below the surface. And yeah, it was later on that they realized, okay, something we you know, she needs to get help. But during that time I was still functioning quite well. So I think they just thought I was quite overly anxious.
Yeah. Yeah, and I guess I'm asking one through the story of your history. And two, I guess with three little kids of my own, four girls, i'd love. And I'm sure there are many parents out there wanting to be able to identify cues and signs that perhaps there are things that they need to be looking out for that maybe they're thinking they see it as something else, or you know, they sweeping on the carpital, they just go, it's just how kids are.
I do get asked a lot, you know, how do I know if my kid has OCD? And it's a really hard question because there are a lot of behaviors that kids can be doing which can overlap with different diagnoses as well, or can just be normal developmental behavior. But what I was told by a child's psych was it's kind of all about distress and disability. So if it's causing great distress and it's also kind of really impacting their functioning or your functioning as a family, that's
when you start to note. But again that can be hard because a lot of the time they'll try to hide that, so they might still look like they're functioning, but they're actually having a lot of trouble. But if you think that it's starting to really cause a lot of distress these sort of thoughts or behaviors that they're doing, then it's certainly worth getting a second opinion.
To even just talking to you for seven minutes. And I don't feel comfortable admitting this because I feel quite guilty about it, but I've been very dismissive I think of the severity of OCD to not to the point where I've taken the mickey out of friends, but to the fact that I have perhaps thought they've been making a manner out of them Aleho a little bit, or making it out to be more debilitating than I've ever really grasped. It can really be a debilitating disease, can it?
It is? It really is debilitating, But you wouldn't be alone there, Sam, Like so many people have this kind of surface level idea of what it is, and you're right, like, not many people feel comfortable talking about it openly and honestly because it's there can be really taboo topics involved.
You can feel a lot of shame around it, and sometimes you can start gaslighting yourself thinking, well, like, you know, I was never like an organized person, or you know, so I would I would worry if I told someone I had OCD. That'd be like, no, well you definitely don't have OCD, and then I'd start to question it. But what it is is so different to how it's perceived in popular culture or in general society, Like it is actually like living in your worst nightmare every day.
That's how I describe it.
So we've spoken very briefly about identifying it in your children, what about it identifying it out like for all our adult listeners out there, what should they be looking for. And then I guess, most importantly, if you are feeling that's the case, what's the best source of getting help.
Yeah, So the way I ended up getting a diagnosis was I pretty much self diagnosed. So after so long, I one day picked up a magazine I think it was The Good Weekend and it had someone's really honest story about OCD and it was anonymous because maybe because it was so painfully honest, and I recognized myself in it and I was like, Oh, that's me. I've got OCD. I never realized like it was such a huge moment for me, and it was like a huge weight taking
off my shoulders. And I showed it to my dad straight away and I was like, this is me, this is what I've gone through. And it wasn't until a couple of years later that I actually went to find someone who had experience in dealing with OCD, and I knew that they did something called exposure and response prevention therapy, which has the most research behind it when it comes
to trading OCD. So it's about facing your whatever fear it is head on, So trying to do something that might trigger that just stress and then not performing the compulsion because we know that every time we perform a compulsion, it fuels the obsession. So it's like this really awful kind of spiral, so.
Fighting all of your urges. However you dealt with that in the past or ways.
You just you sit with the anxiety and you don't perform the compulsion and you start to create new neural pathways in your brain. It's really hard. It's really hard. That does sound it is, and doing it with someone who has experience is really vital. And if you have kids with OCD, it's really important to be doing it as a family because obviously the therapist isn't going to be at home. You're going to be the one trying
to stop them from performing their compulsions. And it might not be stopping them all straight away, but gently trying to stop those behaviors. Yeah, so that's what I's That's the thing that changed the game for me was doing ERP.
And do you still do that to this day? Is that an ongoing practice? It is?
Yeah, it is.
Unfortunately, no, no I thought it might be that you'd always be. It is getting better at it, you know, learning uncovering new techniques that.
Work or yeah, it's something I still see a therapist weekly, and that's cost Not everyone can do that. It's bloody expensive and I'm very privileged to be in that position. But I don't do like EERP every day or even every week. It might just be like once a month, or it might be when I noticed that compulsions are starting to creep back into my daily life. So it's not something I do every day.
And so how long have you been doing that for?
Now? So I was diagnosed at thirty one, and well I'm thirty six now, so there go so five years. Yeah.
Do you feel there's a huge number of people out there living with this that aren't diagnosed?
Yes, yeah, definitely. You know, the stats around it are like two percent of the population. I reckon it's way more.
What are the most common I guess behaviors or traits that a scene with it? I mean, these stereotypes come from truths or are they just entertaining for us?
A good question? I think they, I think they. I think the core of it it comes from truths, because you know, for example, contamination o CD is probably the one that people would think of C. Yeah, and that absolutely can be the case. So people with contamination o CD might be really worried that they'll be infected by something or they'll infect others. So often they'll they will wash their hands, but it won't just be them like really wanting to wash their hands, or you never want
to do the compulsions. But you know, I met I met a woman who was so deep in contamination o CD that she started to shower with bleach like this was this is so this can be so debilitating and so dangerous as well, But that can be really common and really really distressing. There's something called emotional contamination, which is really interesting and again quite common, where you can start to associate like a bad feeling or something you know,
something you don't want to happen. I guess you start to associate that with a person or a color or a number or something, and so you then start to avoid different things. So like an example I read was about a girl who started to associate eating anything red with the thought of blood and contracting some sort of disease, and so she'd started to avoid eating anything red, but then it got so bad that she started to avoid
any clothes that were red. She wouldn't want to be around anyone who was wearing red and that just severely impacted every part of her life, and that can be really common. But I know it sounds like, it sounds crazy and it sounds really illogical, but the people who are engaging in these behaviors like do know that at
their core, but they can't help it. And then there's things like there's harm OCD which can often rear up during the perinatal period for women, so you know, when you're pregnant or in the year after you have a kid, often men or women can be besieged by thoughts of harming their child. So the thoughts aren't unique to people
with OCD. Anyone can get any sort of thoughts. But these thoughts will cause so much anxiety that some people will then just start to avoid their baby because they think, if I'm near my baby, what if I hurt them? Like I'm a danger to them? Really really awful stuff. But yeah, there are so many different subtypes really yeah, but at the heart of it all is this real fear of uncertainty. That's kind of what binds everyone together
who has OCD. It's this fear of uncertainty and trying to do things that will make you think that you can achieve that that certainty when you can't, Like, no one can get certainty around anything. That's what I've learned.
If any of our listeners are hearing this, and it's not them, it's someone that they do love, if someone has been diagnosed, or if these are behaviors in someone that you care about that you're recognizing, what's the what's the best support mechanism that you can provide for those people that you care about.
Yeah, it's a good question. I think firstly, the most important thing is to sounds kind of cliche, but not to try not to judge them and their behaviors. Like I said, people with OCD don't want to be engaging in these behaviors because they cause a lot of distress. But there's something telling them that they can't stop. So, you know, saying something like why can't you just stop worrying about that? Or why can't you just stop doing that?
It just won't help. No matter how many times you say it, it will not help.
It probably make things worse.
Yeah, yeah, it might, just that sense of judgment.
Can I ask a really personal question and please don't feel like you have to answer it? How much have you I hate using that improved, but how much have you changed in the five years since you've been doing this therapy? Like if you had to as a percentage, is that a hard question.
To answer, like ninety five percent. So it's improved so much and treatment, you know, it's so the kind of research around ERP, so using a combination of the explosion response prevention therapy and medication is like there's so much to suggest that it's really really successful for a lot of people. There's so much hope for people.
And that's that's really important because there might people are listening going it is it's right. I can't carol this, you know, and I've been dealing with it for decades potentially, So to hear a story like yours where you've actually I mean, that's really powerful. I'm really glad you said that.
Is there a specific medical professional that you should go and see for that diagnosis before the therapy or both the diagnosis and the therapy if there are people that want, yeah, sort of in that limbo period of not knowing.
Yeah, I'd suggest to people to try to see a GP first if you can, because then you can get a mental treatment plan, right, and from there a GP won't diagnose you, but from there you could either see this is easier said than done. At the moment, a psychiatrist or a psychologist who I guess will be able to diagnose.
You're suggesting because they're all fully booked.
They're all just fully booked. It's so, it's done. It's really it's really distressing hearing people's stories about how they're on so many weight lists or they can't even get on a wait list. But hopefully eventually people can see someone who has experience in treating it, and then and
then they might. Yeah, the psychologist will obviously look at the different therapies, ERP being the most having the most research behind it, and a psychiatrist or a GP might put you on medication if they feel like that's needed.
How long has SOOICD dot com dot au the website been around and what do people get there? And then why the book because I'd love to know about that too. Yeah.
So I started SOOCD with a friend of mine, Rosie, a couple of years ago, and it was at the start of the pandemic and she had recently been diagnosed with OCD and knew that I had OCD and we started talking about it in the website. What we what we spent a lot of time on was trying to find specialists in different in various states in Australia who have experienced treating OCD and we list them and then we also list other websites that do the same thing.
So it's actually can be a little bit of a shortcut for people like to find the right helpantas there's more, because there's just more. There is more out there now, so it's definitely really hopeful. But that's why we did the website and.
Tell us about the book because it's been out for a couple of weeks now, it's available in all good bookstores. I've seen it floating around social media and people raving about it. Why did you write it? What's the response been and what can people expect?
Yeah, I wrote it because I think I needed a resource like that. When I was much younger, I was approached by an editor who had this idea because I think she'd read a couple of articles that I'd written, and, like I was telling you before, I was three months pregnant when it all started, and I was a bit daunted about how the hell, I would get a book done when I was pregnant with my third child, but I just the spit of time. Oh my god, it's all a bit of a blur. But I thought, I
can't not do this. This is such a great opportunity. I've always loved writing. It was like a dream of mine to write a book, So to put that together with talking about OCD just made so much sense. So I decided to kind of weave my personal experiences through the book, also chat to experts from around the world to try to get a clearer picture about what it is and how it can present and how you can
treat it. And then I also used other people's stories, obviously with their permission, to sort of paint a more nuanced version of what it can look like, because, like we've talked about, it can present in so many different ways.
How was the process of writing it for you from your own OCD experience? Was it helpful? Was it cathartic in some kind of way? Was it did it shed light into different areas or show different perspectives that perhaps you hadn't thought of before.
Yeah, it was everything. It was. It was cathartic. Sometimes it was triggering, yeah.
I should have said that, else my head it would be too close to home sometimes totally.
And I know there'll be people out there who have OCD who won't who feel like they won't want to read it because they're worried they'll be triggered. And I totally totally understand that. But what I hope is that there's more kind of helpful healing techniques in there that will be more helpful in the long run for people even if they are a bit triggered by anything in there.
So there's actually some really practical advice in there rather than just experiential. Yeah, this is my story.
Oh yes, I wanted it to be more than any kind of memoir because I wanted it to be a very practical how to guide for people with OCD or loved ones and people with OCD.
Yeah, that's awesome. Is there evidence to suggest that exercise and nutrition and extra sleep help with these things?
You know? I think looking after yourself is always going to help in terms of your sense of help anxiety, I guess, or help maybe reduce anxiety or get your endorphins pumping. What's quite interesting, which I do talk about in the book, is how important self compassion is because a lot of people with OCD will be thinking the very worst thoughts about themselves over and over and over again,
and that takes its toll. But there is a lot of research to suggest that self compassion can absolutely help with the treatment of OCD.
But that that answer, actually, I think makes a lot of sense. You know, sometimes it's just not there, you don't have to Yeah, yeah, it's more than there already. The joint.
I think with any mental illness, it's there's so much power in looking after yourself mentally and physically. And you know, whenever I was in a bad place with OCD, I would stop all that, so I wouldn't So running is what I do to try to feel mentally healthy. One of the things I do. When I was in a really bad OCD hole, I would stop running. I wouldn't think really about what I was eating. That would all stop.
What I realize now is that when I'm really deep in it, that's like when I need to go for run, that's when I need to start thinking more about what I'm eating. So I think it absolutely plays a past. Yeah, just like it would for any other mental illness.
I think, well, this is I feel like we've scratched the surface, and we've probably scratched the surface enough for our first encounter. But I've loved talking to you. I've gone from a one out of ten to a seven out of ten knowledge. I think I'm ACD and I'm going to read the book to get up to a ten. You've been an absolute pleasure to have here on the wood Life. Thank you so much. Happy birthday again. And for anyone that's listening, the name of that book again
is The Joy Thief. It's out now and it's by the wonderful Penny METI.
Thank you so much, Sam, thanks for.
Coming in there you go. Penny has just left the studio, and a Penny really shined a light to me on the severity of OCD. I was really actually feeling a bit guilty about some of my thoughts around it and how I thought I understood something I really didn't understand it. Anyway. I wonder if you're listening thinking similar things, or you're thinking Sam's just a jerk and needs to be more educated.
But I'm definitely better off for that conversation. And as I said, Penning an absolute delight and would love to hear your thoughts on it, and yeah, if it is something that's really close to your personal circumstances, make sure you do yourself a favor and get out and grab that amazing book. That I meant it sincerely, I've had three or four people say to me that it is an absolutely brilliant book, So make sure you go and check it out. We're going to go something that is
a bit more in my lane. Next, we're going to talk about exercise, and specifically we're going to talk about working out at night.
Now that the sun is staying out later and later, is it okay to exercise later into the evening? All this mess up most sleep or circadian rhythms.
Jess, what a great question. You would have heard me say on the show before that I'm a big fan of moving in the morning. Now I am, But that's not to say it's better from a circadian rhythm or
a physiological perspective to working out at night. The main reason I say move in the morning is we tend to get the benefits of the increased energy in the increased mood then for the next ten, twelve, four d eight hours because we've moved in the morning and from a practical perspective, we're just more consistent with our workouts if we work out in the morning because it's already
happened before. Distractions and obstacles and meetings and tiredness and dinner parties can kind of naturally as they do, get in the way and interrupt that consistency. The only two considerations that are real are if you're doing something super high intense really late before you go to bed, or you probably are going to need that wine down time, and it could be then eating into your sleep time
if you're doing it. I mean, if you're doing a workout maybe in a home gym at ten pm or eleven pm or something really late, I think that will start to impact the quality of your sleep in the time that you can get to sleep. And a lot of people struggle to train and then sleep and then not eat in between. And therefore, if you're training really late, you can eat really late. And if you're eating really late, that can impact how much weight you keep on. You know,
you don't tend to burn it off as well. If you're eating and then half an hour later going to sleep, you tend to be digesting your food. If you're then trying to sleep and you're still digesting food, so there's a bit of a domino effect. I guess now, if you go to bed at two and you get up at ten and you're still getting your eight hours sleep,
that's probably going to be minimal. But for most of us who are getting up at seven or eight, if you're training super late at night, then everything else is going to get a bit squeezed from a food and a sleep perspective, and that really is your only consideration.
But if you're talking about am I right to go for a little twilight run now that daylight savings is kicked in and it's getting lighter later at six pm because I just don't like getting up in the morning, or I've got a really busy morning schedule, and you do that consistently, then absolutely yes, I so go for it. What a great episode it was today, And I'm guessing there's going to be questions. There's going to be questions maybe about the training at nights, or probably more likely
around OCD and things associated with OCD. Would love to hear your own personal experiences. We'd love to hear questions statements about it. There's a link in the show notes, don't hesitate to reach out. We love hearing from you until next week. That's another episode of the Good Life. See you then,