The Written Submissions One

>> Andrew Jacobs: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode. The written submissions. One of the Women Talking About Learning podcast, I'm Andrew Jacobs. This episode has been sitting on the list since day one of the podcast. We're delighted to be able to bring it to you now some five years after the podcast started. To help us with our writing, we have three awesome guests. Our first

guest is Kim Ellis. Kim is a trainer at heart who loves to see and inspire those aha, uh, moments in the people she works with, whether that's in her training capacity or elsewhere. In 2024, Kim's focus shifted from working with clients to working with other self employed L and D professionals and helping them thrive. Our next guest is Jane Daly. Jane is a behavioural scientist, executive coach, consultant and published author with a wealth

of experience in executive roles. She's the founder of People Star, an evidence based multidisciplinary agency specialising in complex culture and capability transformation. Our uh, final guest is Grace Aldrich Foster. As a co founder of Bold Type, Grace has been training writers for over a decade. She has worked with organisations including Capital One, Johnson and Johnson Biogen, the U.S. special Operations Command, the Aspen Institute and the D.C.

public Education Fund. Recorded in mid-February 2025, this is such an engaging conversation. Please settle back and enjoy. This is women talking about learning. This is Kim, Jane and Grace talking about written submission. >> Jane Daly: So hi Grace, really lovely to meet you on this podcast. Tell me a bit about yourself and why you're here. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: Hi Jane, it's so lovely to meet you as well.

Um, let's see, I have been working, you know, around writing in different ways for a very long time and m. I think that's what, what drew me to this

episode. And uh, you know, I think every day I just wake up feeling really surprised and grateful that I've managed to make a living out of being a writer and teaching other people how to write and thinking about writing, writing about writing, you know, and um, so it's just, it's really neat to have an opportunity to talk to two other women about this topic. Um, we've also got Kim. Kim, hi. Good to see you. What brought you here?

>> Kim Ellis: Hi. Um, thank you. So for me the way that I look at writing shifted from when I was employed to when I was self employed. So the way that I would approach writing something, whether it was a blog post or a piece of content for a client shifted slightly. So I really want to dig into that side of things, you know, and how is that different for me as a, as a self employed woman versus if I was a self employed man. So, so how do I approach things differently?

>> Grace Aldrich Foster: That is fascinating. Wow. Well Jane, I guess you should say why you're here. >> Jane Daly: Yeah, absolutely. I was reflecting on what both of you said and you know, I joined both of you in your love of writing. You know, writing in the learning and development space is so incredible. You know, the opportunities are limitless. Um, to me it's the lifeblood of how people are storytelling with people to people. And that's one of

the things that brought me here. And when Andrew mentioned it was about the written submission, I thought, wow, in 2025 and our digital AI powered world that we're in, can't wait to talk about some human aspects which is typically where I work, um, in looking at how we make people more human and, and of course what women, um, how women play in that space as we're thinking forward and redesigning, um, how we live and work in this age. So that's really what brought me here.

>> Kim Ellis: That's amazing. I mean, picking up what you were saying about AI, I mean AI is everywhere. So I think that why don't we start with that and how that is changing and maybe even empowering women to write more. Because some people will look at uh, using AI to help you write copy, whether it's training material, marketing pieces or anything, a blog or an article. And some people see it as cheating and there has been some AI shaming going on that I've seen across the socials.

But for me, if I'm using it, it's as a tool to analyse my writing style. Where are my strengths, where are my weaknesses? How can I make it better? How can I make it um, appeal to the person that I'm writing it for? I'm using it like that and I shouldn't feel any shame for using it like that. It's empowering me to write. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: You know. The other thing I think of Kim, is that a lot of people suffer with like a, uh, from a crisis of confidence when it comes to

writing. So you know, something that I, I, you know, talk to a lot of folks about is also how you can use AI to say beat writer's block. You know, it's not just about having it do the writing for you, but if you, you know, think about your writing process, you think about where you typically get set stuck and then think about specifically using AI as a tool, as a helper to, to get over that hump, um, or to, you know, kind of build your confidence that you won't get

stuck and just Stop. When you get to that point, I think then, yeah, that's another way it's maybe helping us hear women's voices more. Because, you know, there are a lot of folks who have something to say. They just don't feel confident in their ability to produce something that is worth reading or listen to. Which, of course I, you know, I, I disagree with. I think everyone has, you know, worth something

worth saying and listening to. But so I've seen. I've seen AI be, Be pretty empowering in that way too, I think. >> Jane Daly: M. Grace, building on, um, what you were saying, and you as well, Kim, I think, you know, look, AI can be used in so many different ways. You know, for me, I think when it comes to women, there are some real ethical and equitable challenges that we are dealing with and we have a responsibility, um, in this space, particularly when it comes to writing

things. Um, and I find that if I'm writing a bid or I'm helping one of my clients create, um, a bid, I can add so much rich value to, as you say, using AI as a head start, it's fantastic. But really, then standing back and thinking about how, you know, well, what does it say? And actually, you know, even using some of those examples which are biassed in the bid to say, look, this is why we need to think about X, Y and Z, because we do have a challenge here and, you know, it's our

world to shape, in my opinion. And the more we have these conversations, um, the more we get everybody to be aware that there is, um, ethical and equitable challenges with these kind of technologies, the more that we're going to get somewhere. I think the other thing we need to be really careful of. And Kim, you mentioned the word shame. And I think for me, um, I was supporting a client, a large client, one of the largest

workforces in the world recently. And what was interesting for me is they were looking at, um, job applications. People were asked to write certain things and clearly AI had been part of this process because nearly 90% of the submissions have the same submission. So people had cut and pasted and you could see the wood from the trees. As to the people, that really stood out, yes, they may have used AI as a head

start, but they didn't cut and paste. And that's one of the biggest challenges for me that women, um, in particular face. But actually, to me, that friction is an opportunity for women. >> Kim Ellis: Hm. Now, I was just going to say, I getting a submission like that, you know, where everybody's is, is it's like Cookie cutter content. Um, they're using it wrong, you know, they're not using it to its full capability. Depending on what tool you're using, you're going to have

different results. Depending on how good your prompts are, you're going to have different results. But the way I use it is I will write it first and then I'll ask AI to look at it. I won't put into AI I need a submission for this. I need, you know, these are the points. Write me an article, write me a blog post, Write me, um, an application form or something like that. I won't use it in that way because that's where you get your cookie cutter responses.

>> Jane Daly: No, absolutely, Kim. And I was, um. Grace, thinking about something that you talking about here, how, you know, you're really helping people, um, you know, who often have a block or something,

um, that may not be working. But, you know, Grace, how do you encourage, I'm really interested to understand how you encourage, you know, women to, um, you know, really understand those amazing stories from the great women, um, that we, you know, even today we have so many amazing things and how people in L and D can learn from that. How would you, how would you do that in your work? I'm really interested. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: That's such a good question, Jane. And I think, you know, Kim

already said some of it. I think using AI to analyse your own voice and actually to tell you what is, uh, interesting and unique and compelling and strong about it, or even using it as a tool to show you that you have a voice at all. Because I think that that's something that, you know, a lot of women struggle with and having sort of this impartial, uh, you know, system or programme analyse at the speed of light, you know, your unique. The unique factors, you know, that come through in your

voice is something that is really. It can be really empowering. And um, so I think that's something that's coming up a lot with the folks that I work with. Um, but also I think play around AI can be really impactful for help, for helping women tell their stories, really helping anyone tell their stories. Because something I hear a lot. And I wonder, Kim and Jane, if you hear

this from people as well. But I regularly, uh, not just at work, but in, you know, conversation with friends or people I meet in the airport or, you know, wherever will tell me about, just, you know, with no prompting about, oh, you know, what I asked chat GPT the other day.

X, Y, Z. Right. And so people are. And I've Seen that, um, Google search, uh, traffic has like gone way down, um, since, you know, Gen AI came on the scene because people are kind of using Gen AI, um, to answer their questions more than they had been previously using, let's say, say, Google. My point is, I think a lot of folks are also using ChatGPT just to experiment. It sort of adds a little bit of lightness for a lot of people around, um, you know, asking it to. Asking AI to tell a story

or. I saw this really interest, interesting kind uh, of trend that was going around on socials a while back where uh, it was something about prompting Chat GPT to, To tell, uh, you what your future looked like by answering a few prompts about some of your favourite things to do or like your ideal day. And then it would sort of like write this story for you about, you know, what future you

looked like in 10 years. And I thought, you know, that's the kind of thing that can uh, actually be really emotional and impactful people in terms of helping them envision something for themselves. So I think that playfulness has been pretty interesting and empowering. >> Kim Ellis: Yeah. And as a source of inspiration as well. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: Yeah.

>> Kim Ellis: You know, because if, if it tells you something that you know or uh, gives you an idea for an article or uh, gives you the confidence to apply for a tender or uh, put a bid in or something like that, then I think that that's only a good thing if it's giving you some confidence. Sorry. >> Jane Daly: No, I really agree. I love um, this view of playfulness and thinking about your personality and how it comes through. Um, I think coming back to written submissions, it is about how,

whatever that means for you. Are we thinking about a bid? Is it you were applying for an award? Are you writing content for L and D? Are you trying to stand out, um, and reach people in a coaching setting or even organisation? I mean there's so many opportunities here, but it's how it makes us feel. And of course, um, you know, AI is a machine, um, but it can produce, you know,

it. It is working really hard to artificially replicate a conversation, you know, conversational AI, in my opinion, is, is um, is, you know, really coming on board with some of the stuff that we've been talking about here. I think there is a real opportunity to play, as you say, with speed. Kim. But Grace, you know, I think encouraging women

to play more. You know, I find in a lot of my coaching work that um, women who feel that maybe their voice isn't heard when it comes to writing things down for you Know, proposals or, um, strategies within organisations, whatever that might be for L and D. Um, actually, you know, they worry about putting their personality or emotion, because they've been conditioned in, um, you know, in their work life to say, actually, no, that's

not going to be. But I think there's a real time to turn that on its head and make, um, you know, organisations in particular L and D, more human in. In this age. So playfulness to me is a key ingredient of that. And I do think that's an area that I find in my work where women need to be encouraged more to do that. Because when they do boon, what I experience is it's as if the cat is out the bag. And I think using AI, you know, as you say, Kim, to play with that, you know, aspect is a great way

to do that. Uh, definitely. >> Kim Ellis: Yeah. But how can we encourage that? How can we pull that out of people who are maybe sat on the sidelines thinking, my writing style is too casual. Um, I can't do it because of this, I can't do it because of that. What can we do to empower each other? >> Grace Aldrich Foster: I think talking about. I think three of the. Three of us talking about the fact that. Well, actually, I don't know, I assume that. Kim, you've talked about actually using AI in

your own writing. Jane, do you, do you use AI in your own writing? >> Jane Daly: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely use both. You know, I, um. >> Kim Ellis: Um. >> Jane Daly: You know, so I'm fascinated by human behaviour. You know, as a behavioural scientist, that's what I. And fascinated by every single day, every single hour of my work. You know, what sort of, um, value does this add? What impact is this having? Both positive and not so positive. Um, and for me, um, I love to

play. And it's definitely one of the things that's allowed me to progress my career. Before AI, I would play in the safety of critical friends that I built up as a network. But obviously in this world where we're all really busy and overwhelmed, it's great to use different types of AI, not just ChatGPT. There's a whole world of different things and even explore how other people are using it. And thinking about my expertise in prompt engineering and how it can replicate me, but I

would never cut and paste. It's always about, you know, that human oversight. You know, how can I stand back, how can I mull over something? Um, and, you know, I just think there's some really interesting ways that we can, we can do this and I think we need to share more of those Things and more of those biases that are coming out because, um, you know, AI is making me laugh out loud when it comes to asking it questions in relation to not only

women, but different things that I'm exploring. And when I ask it to make it more female or do this, actually, it tends to dig its own hole. Um, what do you guys think? >> Grace Aldrich Foster: Yeah, well, Jane, that's exactly why I asked that question. I use AI as well. I think all three of us are using it in different ways. And, uh, so how do we encourage other people, you know, to. To. To use AI more and use it more playfully? I

think part of it is. Is permission. Right. I think some people feel like they don't know if they can or should be using it. And it goes back to, I think, Kim's point about shame. So having, you know, podcasts like this where we talk very openly and positively about the ways in which we're using AI. We're playing with it, we're experimenting with it. I. I think that that is encouraging for. For

folks will listen. I hope it. Hope it is. And Jane, while you were talking, I kept thinking about, you know, experimentation, which isn't quite the same thing as playfulness, but there's some overlap. You know, so it's maybe experimenting and playing within a tool, but also by finding new tools. I mean, every day there are new options for tools that you can, you know, not just writing, not with just written submissions. Um, and the other thought I had. And Kim, I want to hear your

thoughts about this. One of the reasons that I think AI also can promote the opportunity for play. It can give you the opportunity for play is because of how quick it is. You know, a lot of us don't play. I think women in particular don't do a lot of playing because we don't have time. >> Kim Ellis: Yes.

>> Grace Aldrich Foster: We're so busy. We have so m. Many, you know, responsibilities, so many demands on our time, that playfulness falls by the wayside because it's feels, um, gratuitous or it feel, you know, we just don't have time. Well, one thing that AI does is it. It. It doesn't necessarily, you know, do what we do better. It just does it faster.

Right. And so if you get comfortable using AI with your writing or with other things in your life, it can free up some time for playfulness, either within that process or outside of it. And so, Kim, that's. That's what I wanted to hear from you. Do you feel like it's as you've been

using it in your Own writing. Do you feel like it's changed your relationship with how much time you have to spend on writing or, you know, has that sort of component of it affected your writing process or the types of things that you are able to. >> Kim Ellis: Produce is definitely, um, sped up my thought process, um, especially when I'm, I'm starting a new piece. So I would usually,

you know, create. If it's a blog post, um, I would create the, uh, you know, I'd have some inspiration from somewhere and then I'd, I'd map out what the blog post was about and then I might, I sometimes hit a writer's block about three quarters of the way through. So I'm like, okay, I've got to the end, but I need an ending. And then I think, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put it over into GPT and say, what do you think of this? Um, and then make some tweaks and then I'll ask it for suggestions

on how I can finish the piece. I may not use them, but it may inspire me to do something else. And playing around and asking it to change the tone, asking it to change, um, from bullet points to paragraphs and changing it from casual to an academic or vice versa, and, and things like that. I think playing with what I'm writing is as much fun for

me as writing the thing. Because my finished project, my finished piece or article or whatever it is is quite often going to look markedly different from when it first started because, and playing around with it and it's the same like if you were, uh, project mapping, post its on a wall. You know, you put all of your ideas up on the wall and then you're moving things around, you're taking things, you're adding things. Using AI is basically my version of post its on the wall.

>> Grace Aldrich Foster: Put that on a billboard. I love that. Kim. >> Jane Daly: Yeah. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: Yeah. Wow. So I feel like what I hear you saying is that using AI has brought some joy into your writing process and maybe some lightness to it. And the fact that you can see so many different options and engage your own response to them, it sounds like that's really enlightening and has become a really important part of your own writing process.

>> Kim Ellis: Absolutely. And it's also, it's given me more confidence to put my voice out there. Um, for many years, like on LinkedIn, I, I, I'm a people watcher. You know, you sat in a coffee shop and you're watching people walk past. That was

very much me. On LinkedIn, I would post sporadically, um, but then I've, for the business, I've been posting every day and you know, it's, it's given me the confidence to look at how I'm posting, what I'm writing, how I'm structuring and that I'm actually going to post every day, um, or every other day, should I say. I think that I just want to bring it, the conversation back to the confidence and really what's holding women back from finding their voice, you know, Kim.

>> Jane Daly: As you were talking there, I was bringing in my, you know, expertise in thinking about. It is fantastic to be creative and playful and be using AI in the process. But um, you know, I've had a couple of conversations recently and people said, well, it makes me feel even more inferior because it's, you know, I would never have thought of those things. And actually quite honestly, I know in a couple of my coaching

clients they would absolutely have got there. But because of the speed of it and their perception and their self doubt. Self perception and self doubt, it's compounding um, their limiting beliefs. And you know, for me I think that, you know, what we do have to encourage people to do is you know, get into that reflective writing as well because you know, AI is one perspective or you can play with it and get some

different perspectives. But um, capturing your thoughts is such a healthy thing for your brain health, your psychological health and actually even your physical health when you look at the research. So I really do want to make sure that we do encourage people to explore if those thoughts are coming up when they're using AI, um, in

their writing to explore that as well. Because the, any way that you're continue to learn and grow thinking about the topic we're here particularly if you are suffering from some self doubt, um, that actually you really sit with that and you think about why you're feeling like that. You know, what can you do about that? Then what, um, you know, how can you explore those limiting thoughts? You know, talk to somebody and write it down as well? Because that is real for, for

a number of people. Is anybody else seeing that? >> Grace Aldrich Foster: I'm definitely seeing it. And, and I think, Jane, one of the reasons that women in particular have this, we I think tend to have a lot of self doubt. And, and the reason I think is because we receive so much criticism around the way we communicate. You know, we're, we're being too bold or we're not being bold enough. You know, we're, we're being too direct

or we're not being direct. There was this Viral article that went around a year or two ago now maybe, that Adam Grant wrote about using weak language. Right. And so women are, um, you know, criticised constantly for using hedging words and filler words, uh, at work, you know, but at the same time, studies show that when women use this language, they tend to have better outcomes at work when they ask for promotions and things like that. So, yeah, it's this kind of like, you, you can't win

sometimes. And I think that that can often really affect women's confidence. They don't know, they don't feel like they can take a right step. Every. Every step they take can sort of feel like it's. It's being criticised, it's. Someone's not going to be happy with it. So how to encourage women, you know, to have more confidence and to feel more

confident in their voice? Uh, the. I'll say that one of the things that I encourage folks to do, some people are more receptive to it than is journaling, actually getting in a habit of writing only for yourself where no one else is reading it. No one else is policing how you sound. It doesn't matter if you have perfect grammar. The only point is to try to express yourself completely. >> Jane Daly: Grace, I'm. I'm totally with you. Um, it is so important. I

was. I was, um. I don't know if any of you have seen. Reese Wetherspoon recently has launched an area of support for women in particular. It can be for anybody, but it's particularly focused on some of the challenges they're having in, uh, the U.S. and areas closely related with the U.S. called hello, sunshine. And if you haven't had a chance to have a look at it, I would have a look at it. It's a breath of fresh

air. And, um, you know, I have so many colleagues, you know, who have so many journals going on, Grace, you know, uh, create it yourself, buy something you love it. You know, treat yourself. You know, forget that pair of shoes this month. It is, you know, this is the best gift you could ever give yourself.

You know, I personally journal several times a day and it genuinely is part of my confidence re energising, um, and capability and just, you know, looking at some of the patterns, you see, if you look back at your writing, that is for you. What about you, Kim? Is it something that you've explored? >> Kim Ellis: I've never really journaled. Um, if I feel inspired to write something, then it usually ends up being a blog post or a couple of social posts or something like that. So I don't do

it for me. I do it because what's in my brain might help somebody. And um, I think that we need to kind of put AI to a side for a moment and think, well, how are we supporting women's voices? How are we empowering them to find their own voice and not be apologetic for it? You know, so I'd say top tips for, for helping women find their voice, find their writing style and actually use it. What do you think, Grace? What would your top tips be?

>> Grace Aldrich Foster: Well, one of them is, especially if we're talking about finding your voice, one of them is to journal. So you can find prompts and I'll give some parameters for it. You know, you can find prompts anywhere. If you're like, I don't know how to get started, you know, find a prompt that you can respond to, set a timer for yourself. Maybe it's five minutes and your only task is not to stop writing the whole time.

I think it's great if people start by hand because there is kind of this proven, you know, handwriting to brain pipeline. Um, and then take a look at it, maybe you can analyse it yourself. Looking at your, your voice, what makes it unique? Uh, what do you notice? Are there words that you always use that, that you repeat a lot? Are there certain, certain sentence structures that you return to over and over? What's uh, your word choice like? Or you could use

an AI partner to help you do this. You could then type that, that submission into ChatGPT or something and ask it to analyse your voice. And um, so that is something I think you can do in a low tech way or a high tech way in a kind of a

tech assisted way. And whatever your choice is just beginning to let yourself write without, you know, parameters, without criticism, without other people looking at it will help to build your confidence and then going and you know, integrating AI tools maybe into your writing process. Kim, like you're talking about is a little more accessible at that point. >> Kim Ellis: Jane, what do you think? Jane? >> Jane Daly: For me, um, you know, totally agree

with all those things that Grace has said. And you know, for me it's really about exploring yourself. And um, by doing that exploring, you've got to be reading. If you're writing, you've got to be reading. There's a clear connection between um, reading and writing and that can be reading on um, electronic devices, reading physically. Um, but people that have the best writing are amazing readers as well. And that also can be um, you know, listening as well or talking out

loud. So I would absolutely Say, get, um, you know, decide on your. How you're going to tell your story with your personality by exploring others first. Sometimes. Um, but yeah, really get to know yourself with writing and absolutely don't ever apologise or be afraid to be you. >> Kim Ellis: Yes. >> Jane Daly: And, you know, that definitely took me a long time to

discover. Um, and for me and my daughter, you know, these are things that, you know, find that diverse group of critical friends and a great network. You know, don't always go to people giving you the emperor's new clothes. You know, I genuinely believe feedback is a gift. It is a gift. Get used to it. Get that thick skin on and, um, you know, grow from that perspective. But your opinion is actually more important than anybody's. That would be my top tip here.

>> Kim Ellis: I love that and I love the whole find your tribe, find your allies and, you know, collaborators potentially. You don't have to write something by yourself. You can collab on a post or a tender or a bid with other people. Um, my top tip would be just do it. You know, um, there are quite a few online publications that will take articles and blog posts from, from, from anybody that's got

something to say. Like, you've got training journal, Joe Cook, she has got this great guide for how to structure a blog, post length format, all of that kind of stuff. So if you've got an idea, don't just sit there on it. Your idea could inspire somebody. Your idea could change somebody's entire viewpoint on a subject or a topic. Whether you use AI or not. Just write. >> Jane Daly: And Kim, I was thinking, uh, you know, stories and writing change lives and that is

the business that we are in. We're talking about L and D here. Education changes lives and for me it's the writing and communication which is the lifeblood of that change. I love that. >> Kim Ellis: Yeah. And never apologise for your writing style because it is authentic. It is. You don't feel like you need to change for somebody else. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: That's right. The goal is not to sound like everyone else. >> Kim Ellis: Right.

>> Grace Aldrich Foster: It's. It's to sound like yourself. >> Jane Daly: Absolutely amazing. Thank you so much. I loved the conversation. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: Jane and Kim, I feel like this went by so fast. I could have talked to you for three times as long and enjoyed every bit of it. >> Kim Ellis: And we've dug into so much as well. >> Grace Aldrich Foster: Yeah. >> Kim Ellis: So, Andrew, is that a drop the mic moment? >> Andrew Jacobs: The happenstance of these episodes constantly

surprises us. Our previous episode was the Play one and it hadn't been published. When our guests for this episode got together and we were incredibly lucky to have Kim, Jane and Grace sharing their approaches to writing and to play within L and D as well. As such great advice, hints and tips, we know we'll be coming back to this episode. What stood out to you?

A massive thank you to them for their time and you'll find all their details along with links to the subjects they spoke about in the show notes. We're always on the lookout for guests, so if you'd like to take part, please do let us know. Again, all the details are in the show notes. We'll be back in a couple of weeks and next time it's the accessibility one. As always, thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon. >> Kim Ellis: Sa.