>> Andrew Jacobs: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the Levelling uh Up one of the Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. The topic of levelling up was suggested a while ago and we really quickly filled the spaces. It's almost as if our guests are really keen to get this out there. He was just finding the right time to get it recorded and we're so pleased we've managed it. Our first guest is Vanessa
Frater Robinson. Vanessa is a multi award winning international speaker, author, certified confidence and speaker coach. With over two decades of corporate communication experience. She has empowered hundreds of professional women to speak boldly and lead fearlessly. As a founder of the global Confidence Core movement, predominantly for faith based women, Vanessa is dedicated to breaking barriers and igniting self belief. Our uh, second guest is Amy Bond.
Amy is an account executive for an award winning learning technology company, passionate about empowering innovative learning and development professionals to drive engagement in their workforce and encourage a meaningful culture of social learning. She loves supporting progressive organisations, harnessing the power of impactful tech to close skills gaps and transform organisational performance. Our uh, final guest is
Dr. Sananda Banerjee. Sue brings over 16 years of diverse experience spanning domestic and international markets in the field of leadership development and business and strategy. Recorded in March of this year. This is women talking about learning. This is Vanessa, Amy and Solanda talking about levelling up. >> Amy Bond: Good morning Sue. How are you doing today? Where are you dialling in from? >> Sananda Banerjee: Thank you. Hey, I'm uh, dialling in from India.
>> Amy Bond: Oh, so afternoon for you? >> Sananda Banerjee: Yes, absolutely. It's almost evening. >> Amy Bond: Oh, really? >> Sananda Banerjee: Yeah. >> Amy Bond: Brilliant. And so today's episode is the Levelling up one. I'm super curious to know what interested in you in this um, topic and what your thoughts are.
>> Sananda Banerjee: Uh, when you and I were just having a little chat on LinkedIn before this and we were talking about levelling up, I actually got thinking that how do we really go about this level and how do we define that level and what levelling up would mean then where is the baseline? Uh, so, and for
all of us that would look so different, isn't it? And that's the beauty of this conversation that I'm really looking forward to through this uh, episode is that you, me, Vanessa, we all uh, have different journeys, we have different stories and how that converges into something beautiful that, that eventually becomes this podcast level up. Um, and especially in this amazing field of learning, uh, I'm sure we all bring our bits and pieces that make the puzzle beautiful together. Right.
So I'm really keen and curious and looking Forward to learn from both of you, uh, about your journeys. What. What are you all doing? So, Vanessa would love to hear. I'm sure me and Amy, we are excited to know more about what's your thought about levelling up? >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: Good morning, Amy. Good morning, Sue. Um, and I'm so delighted to be here today.
This is a topic that is very dear to my heart about levelling up and also for women to level up their knowledge and skills to become even more confident and speak boldly and fearlessly. So I am building a global confidence movement where I want to empower women, I want to serve women so that they can share their messages. But a lot of women feel less than confident and feel like they don't
have a voice, so they play small. So when I saw this topic come up, I thought, yes, I would love to talk to Amy and Sue about this and also learn from you guys and see where this conversation goes. How can we. What is the baseline and how do we level up? So that's going to be a great conversation. >> Sananda Banerjee: So lovely. Thanks, Melissa. Amy, what about you?
>> Amy Bond: Yeah, gosh, it's so nice listening to both of your just initial thoughts on it, because I can see already that there are different perspectives on levelling up and what that might look like personally and what that looks like, um, in terms of a career
plan. And I'm already really excited by what you said, Vanessa, about, um, how confidence plays such a big role in being able to level up and, um, how important it is to feel that within yourself in order to empower you to make moves that improve and progress your career and personally as well. Um, I think for me, I might, as you said, sue, be coming at it from a slightly different angle again. So, um, personally and career wise, I'm in the season of life where I've got a toddler and I've got,
um, another one on the way. So I think for me, this season of levelling up has very much been about learning to juggle, learning to, um, manage my time really effectively and, and change an awful lot about just life and career in order to be able to sort of, quote, unquote, do it all, I guess. Um, so for me, this season of life, um, has been lots of change and lots of progress, which has really felt empowering and has really felt like I have, I don't know, shot up 30 levels
maybe. So it's been, um, yeah, it's been a real journey, um, already, and I'm just sort of really excited to hear, uh, more about the confidence, um, that you're talking about Vanessa and, and more about your thoughts, Sue. >> Sananda Banerjee: Absolutely. That's, that's so lovely. And congratulations, Amy. And all the best. >> Amy Bond: Thank you. >> Sananda Banerjee: This is, this you, you need all the, all the bests out there. >> Amy Bond: Yeah, you definitely do, don't you?
I'm just living on a prayer a little bit at the moment. I just kind of keep telling myself, ah, uh, we'll figure it out. We figured it time. We'll figure it out this time. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: So what I, what I would say to that, Amy, is to give yourself some grace. Really, please do give yourself some grace. There will be times when you're running 100 miles a minute and there'll be times when all you can do is sit down, uh, just give yourself some grace. >> Sananda Banerjee: Yeah.
>> Amy Bond: Oh, thank you so much. That's so kind. Yeah, I completely agree. And it's something that the first time around I didn't do enough of. Um, so this time I think taking on board that, that advice will be key and I think just having that sort of peace of mind of you got through it before, it's fine, you can, you can juggle it, you can give yourself a little bit of grace and, and yeah, we'll work out.
>> Sananda Banerjee: It's so lovely. Vanessa, when you said this, the grace piece and that we, um, in, in a lot of women leadership programmes that I have last couple of years, especially post Covid, um, I've seen how lot of us, despite all the brave facade we put out there, we say all these, you know, brave things that. Oh, you know, but when it comes to ourselves, I think we really miss on filling the
cup. Uh, and when, when Amy also said that I didn't do enough the last time and it, you know, it sounded me, oh, but I'm sure you did well, you did best, your abilities. Right. And there would have been times then we always feel out of breath. Right. There is always, um, this, oh, I must have missed something. That always happens. But eventually we did the best, so.
And similarly, the corporate women have been struggling for such a long time to find their feet in boardrooms in space where they could have taken up charge, but they just don't feel enough. Or there's this constant need to validate themselves a hundred times before taking a step. And I believe, Vanessa, that's what you were talking about when we talk about confidence. So those self limiting beliefs, those narratives that hold them back despite being capable enough.
>> Vanessa Frater Robinson: Absolutely. I mean, you're right, Sue. I totally agree with everything that. It's so great. We're all on the same Page, because so many times women, you know, if they're going for, uh, a promotion or whatever, they feel like they have to have 100% of all of the skills. And research shows that men only think, oh, I've got 60%, I'll still apply for it. That woman didn't apply for it. The man did. He gets it great
for him because he's got the confidence. But what if that woman had 5, 10, 20% more confidence? She would have gone for it. So we do as, uh, women, I'm afraid, and it breaks my heart, we tend to put ourselves down, that we have to have this perfection. And it's not great, but it's something that we can all work on and get better. There's room for improvement.
>> Amy Bond: Yes, that's so true. And I think, just as you were talking about it when we were initially discussing the idea of confidence and levelling up, um, as I was listening to you speak, I was trying to think of times where that has definitely affected me, and I think very much so this year I've put a lot of emphasis on putting myself out there a little bit more, being
more active on LinkedIn. And I've had to really give myself a, ah, good talking to a few times, because that thought creeps into your head of, why would anyone want to read what I have to say? Why is this even interesting for people? And so sometimes I think just letting those thoughts come and then letting them go and just telling yourself like, no, you have valid things to say, and some people might find them interesting, some people might not, and
that's okay as well. Um, and I think that that's, that's a good starting point is to just acknowledge that those thoughts are really normal and everyone might think them. But some people may press post, and some people may let that deter them from, from putting themselves out there. So it's, it's so interesting to, to hear that you have maybe
experienced that as well. And, and I'd love to hear more about, um, what you do to build on people's confidences and that movement that you're, that you're working towards. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: I think that this is something that I hear all the time in all the accountability groups on, um, the army and the business strategy groups that I'm in. One thing I hear is that I'm not good enough, or I used to think I, uh, wasn't good
enough. And I think, you know, people who don't push post is because they think they have to be perfect and they may have this perfectionism imposter syndrome, where you think you have to be perfect, you have to do this, you have to be this. Because as women, we feel like this extra pressure showing up. What is a good woman? What does that mean? And we put all this added pressure on us and all the societal pressures, right? And I remember talking to a mentor of mine, and I said, you
know, progress over perfection. And then she added to that and said, yes, because perfection is poverty, but progress over perfection. And if you can just take that one step, that one step, even when you feel scared. Because courage isn't about taking steps without fear. It's taking it despite the fear, right? So you take that one step, you get that evidence. You get that evidence that builds your capability, and then you get more confident. You can't come out the gate being confident, but you
can build it. And that's the thing. Just take one step, just one step, and then you can build your confidence that way. And you will feel the fear, make friends with the fear, because it's always going to be there, because it's designed to make you, keep you safe. But it's when fear is in the driving seat that it can then keep you back. You have to put fear into the passenger seat, take hold of the driving wheel, and say, I'm steering this. I'm taking this to A to B. And it's so important.
And for some people, it takes time because there might be other challenging things going on under the surface that people may or may not know about, and that could take some people longer, but other people, it's like a mindset shift. I want to do this. What are the steps I need to take? And each case, you have to look at it and decide, well, what's going on with that person? How can I help that person? What can they tell me? Or what do they want to tell me
that I can actually help them. And I found using my ears more than my mouth helps, because you can hear what they have to say. >> Sananda Banerjee: And in fact, to what you said, Vanessa, um, this entire chain of thought of, where am I at this stage of life? And, uh, for. For my, you know, coaches who are women who are now in the next stage of growth in their careers, I give them this four A's, which is, um, aware, acknowledge, accept, act. Now, each of the four are interconnected sequentially.
Yet some women are here and some are at different stages. Now, not everybody would have the courage or even the acknowledgment of where they stand, because, of course, in their mind, they're always like, one Level down. So that's where the support system or the beauty of queen fixing another queen's crown comes in, where women who are one stage ahead can help these, who are one stage behind to pull them up and help them see that potential that they can't
themselves. And because it takes so much courage to even accept that, oh, I know I'm, I'm not in, in the perfect space, as you said, right. I have to make progress. So a lot of people and, and that's why, you know, we say that only a few are able to do it, because people know, everybody would say that. I know I have to, but I don't know how, I don't know where to start. I don't know what
the starting point mind. So somebody who's already taken that step are just the right mentors or advisors or, you know, your support system who can pull the other. Say that, hey, this is what, you know, just give that torch light and say, this is where the path looks like. Now you walk your path, but I can show you where the path
is. Um, and I think that's where, when we start seeing real change, where, uh, we know that not everybody would have the strength to take that first step, but there's always, there would be others who have experienced that fear and that, and have that courage that you said, despite having the fear, have walked. But know that it takes a lot of courage. Let me help give that few percent of support and that might just push it, it accelerates. And that's the beauty of these
tribe programmes. A lot of times where you see that, I'm sure you both have also experienced that. Where, uh, when one says that I experienced this, this, this, and others say, hey, you know, you're not alone, even I was in this space. And suddenly you have this, um, you know, faith or that confidence that, oh, okay, I'm not alone. We are, uh, we all in together. And despite different backgrounds or cultures or geographies, time zones, people come together and they start shaping that
narrative together. So I think that's where development programmes for women make most difference, is because they can come together and share that they have faced similar struggles, if not the same, but similar.
>> Amy Bond: That's such a beautiful thought. And it's, it's really nice just hearing it put across in that way because I can think of so many different examples, um, especially since becoming a mom, where having someone who has sort of walked that path before me, a woman who's walked that path before me, is just gives you so much reassurance, just by saying, oh, I've been there and I've experienced it and you're doing a great
job and give yourself grace. And I, I, I guess as women maybe it's, it's quite natural for us to, to if, if we've been there to just share that love almost of you're doing a great job. It feels really natural. So there's someone in the office, um, who recently, um, had a baby and I think it was just instinct for me to be like, oh, how's this aspect going? How's this aspect going? How's this
aspect going? Because you've been there and you know, and that goes across not just motherhood but, but um, career development and, and just general, um, just general life as well. I think it's so natural for us as women to see somebody struggling and maybe there's that extra level of empathy or something that, that recognises it and allows us to reach out and say,
hey, I've been there and how can I help? And I think that that's a really wonderful thing, um, that that sort of spreads across all of life, whether it's career, whether it's motherhood, whether it's personal life. Having women who have taken those steps before, you reach out a hand and show you the way, um, and maybe give you that small spark of confidence you need to take that first step, um, is, yeah, is a really wonderful thing. So I love how you put that across.
>> Sananda Banerjee: Sue, Vanessa, I'm also curious to know, and Amy too, from you as well. Um, how do you both look at coaching for uh, coaching as a piece that becomes so crucial, especially let's say women who are returning back to work. Right. Um, after a sabbatical beat, after, you know, care as, as caregivers after, or having a child. Um, how do you see, have you, have you any experience around that? And if. Yes. Uh, how do you tell us more about that experience?
>> Amy Bond: This is something I experienced firsthand very recently. So I took a year off when I had my first daughter. So I came back to the workforce about almost two years ago now and it was a far greater struggle than I ever imagined it to be. I think, uh, there was definitely a large dip in my confidence, um, because I think, I think a year is quite a long time to take out of doing your day to day job.
Um, particularly when the world that we live in, the technology advancements that happen in a year, the differences in industry that change over a year, um, it's large. So um, I think the thing that was most important for me Was I was very well supported, um, in my current role now. So I came into the role, I had a competency framework laid out for me. I was able to do evaluations for myself and alongside my peers. Um, that gave me insights into where I may be lacking in certain
areas. Um, and then I was really easily able to click into the competencies that I was maybe lacking in and find personalised paths in order to become fully proficient within my role. And having a, for me personally, a structured, laid out in front of me view of uh, here's what you're great at, which is like a nice little confidence boost and here's what your peers think you're great at and here's some gaps to work on and
here's how you can do it. I think instantly, firstly put my mind at ease of there's a pathway and you are going to get back to yourself and you're going to get back to, to um, where you're most productive. Um, but then as well having that support, um, and that belief in you that you can do it and M, a really structured plan from M to get from A to B, that, that was really huge for me and it gave me that level of accountability which allowed me to say, okay,
I, you know, I've been back in the role for three months. I can see I've still got a gap here. Um, you know, let's work on it and that that personalised path is there for you to empower you to work on it. Um, that was huge for me and I really do believe that that's the reason I was able to, um, to become proficient in my role again quicker than I think maybe would have been possible if I didn't have that
available to me. So for me personally, as someone who really loves structure and as somebody who m, uh, who learns in a particular fashion that, that, that was really, really something that even looking back on now, I think thank goodness I had that and thank goodness that was available to me because yeah, a year's a long time and a lot of changes can happen within that period. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: I had my children like so my eldest is, is now 20 and my youngest is now 14.
Um, but I remember it as if it was yesterday, you know, going back into that I was already a, a, uh, consultant but it was still getting back into the workforce after having almost a year the first time and then eight months the second time. And your confidence does take a bit of a knock because like you say, the, the technology loop, you know, things change and evolve so much quicker. Now than
they did 10 years ago, 20 years ago. So it's like, oh my goodness, how am I going to be productive and do I actually have the capability? So it's that internal inner critic going on. And the women that I have coached that have had similar kind of issues. Some have said that they've loved the structure of the um, the models that I use, and they love going through it and having the accountability and the responsibility coming back, having that um, review cycle to see
their progress. But some have been, uh, it's more of an internal battle that they have. So it's like looking at, well, what are the progress, practical exercises that I can do with this lady to get her to be aware of what's going on? Let's dig a little deeper and build her confidence through practical things so she can see the evidence in front of her. And then I'm sure all of you have assessment models like disc and things like that. It shows their
learning, shows their capabilities. I find that those help as well because they can see their strengths, they can see their capabilities, they can see how they learn and go, ah. People in my working area or in my personal life are the uh, direct opposite of me. So I might have to look at my communication and see how I'm learning that way. So depending on the person who's sitting in front of me, I look at them as the holistic whole and say, what is in front of, um, me, who is in front of me? How
can I serve them, how can I help them? And it's good to have had that experience that I can be mentor role, but if I don't have the experience of what they go in, I go into coach role. >> Sananda Banerjee: So. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: So it depends on who's in front of me. >> Amy Bond: So.
Interesting. And same to you, Sue. What are your thoughts on that? Have you ever taken a period, um, for care or for motherhood or for a sabbatical that has left you with sort of a dip in confidence and the need to sort of find your feet again? >> Sananda Banerjee: It laid a bit differently for me there. So I took a sabbatical. My son, he's 10 years now. Um, so I did take a sabbatical of around 10 months. Yeah, actually went up to a year,
uh, um, after he was born. So I was supposed to though, join back, but then, you know, I'm, I thought that, you know, this time won't come back and like most of us, right, we think that, you know, let's, let's live this, uh, the early years, uh, well, with the kid and we can always work around the career path eventually. That's how a lot of us as mothers are hardwired. Having said that, it wasn't really the confidence challenge for me to get back, but how the industry uh, reacted to my comeback.
Um, corporates always. And I've seen that uh, not just here, globally, a lot of uh, women who speak to us, that it becomes like as if my skill before motherhood were here and I mean like up there and after motherhood, as if my skill set has gone down. So it's looked as if it's like an internship. Right. Given a
chance to learn. Um, and that feels, that feels bad that um, in, in terms of you know, first of all pay gap that returning mothers have to the, the pay scale, the gap in the pay scale, I mean uh, that m. Returning mothers have to face then the opportunities of growth for a
lot of organisations there. Of course some of us are very lucky to, to have those kind of organisations, but a lot of them don't have really a very structured way around career growth path ahead for mothers who are returning to work. Um, and that kind of urged me in a way. I was like this is not right. My, in fact if nothing less, my skill set has increased. I'm better in terms of multitasking. I can handle pressure better, I can
manage fire. Because um, when you're managing an infant along with other schedules, you are at really your best. Despite exhaust, despite lack of sleep, you have to keep your energy up. You have to still look at the kid and smile and play along even when you're exhausted inside. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: Right. >> Sananda Banerjee: So my skill set is actually enhanced technically I should be paid more.
So that's where when women come back and um, from returning to work perspective, uh, one is a lot of us face uh, look at this as like in that imposter syndrome saying that oh maybe really I'm not ready to jump back to my corporate life again. And hence um, I, we might take it more slow and say that okay, it's okay, I'll take my own time. And I'm still learning again. I was in a break so I don't know what's happening recently and all. Um, but if we are again uh, through coaching, through right
Mentors. If women can also parallel find some time when once they have returned to keep themselves updated with industry trends, with what's happening around, uh, that can really up their confidence to um, jump back with uh, you know, more faith in their skill set rather than waiting for others to judge that.
>> Amy Bond: I relate so much to what you said about being irked by people's outside opinions that your skill set may have either dropped or that you're somehow not as able as you were before because. And this sort of relates back to what I said at the start where
I feel like becoming a mum. I, I levelled up to 20 odd levels because in terms of transferable skills, the ability to perform well under pressure, there's so many studies that have been done that say stay at home mums or mums on maternity leave work, uh, dramatic amount of hours and deal, um, with dramatically more pressures than most people would in their day to day roles. And there's a sort of general lack of understanding that those skills are highly
transferable. Um, in terms of multitasking, timekeeping, um, I manage just my day to day life so efficiently now in comparison to how I did before I became a mum. And I think that's out of pure necessity. You have to learn to multitask. You have to learn to become incredibly organised. So my daughter, you know, her clothes are out the night before, her bags packed the night before. If there's anything I can put in the car the night before, it's in the car, um,
her lunch is packed, my clothes are out the night before. You know, the list goes on. And that was very much not the type of person I was before I became a mum. And I think that you naturally become so, so organised, so efficient. Not saying that it's not a juggle because of course it is, but I do think that there is a lack of general, maybe respect for all of those skills, um, and just how transferable they are, um, in terms of coming back into the workforce.
So, yeah, I relate very much to the fact that that irked you and I, um, think that probably, probably lots of people who've been in a similar situation would feel the same. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: Effy. >> Sananda Banerjee: Thanks, Amy. I love this question Andrew has put up about, uh, whether dads or men have to do the same. I, I hate to stir the storm in the cup. Let me be the bad cop and not be politically correct. Sorry, Andrew, but, um, you saw that study.
I saw, uh, on LinkedIn, this post that came up with a graphic. I don't know if, uh, you ladies saw that one where, except taking the trash out, there are 24 tasks that are more than 75% inclined to mums doing that. Taking the trash out is the only job. And
so it's a survey. It's not, I'm not generalising everyone in this bucket, unfortunately, it's more of, um, and And I'm not saying again that they're not keen, but a lot of time I think moms also take that up on themselves, even if they have help or support.
But when it comes to any household, uh, juggling like this, I would be pleasantly surprised and happy to be wrong to say that no, you know, there are more men taking this up or more dads who are happily doing the caregiving part and lesser or, you know, or, or equal for that matter. But unfortunately that we are yet to see that in a large number. What do you say, Vanessa?
>> Vanessa Frater Robinson: Amy? I, I think it's, it's, that is a general thing because, and, and there's the research is there the mental load on women has been proven is more on women than, than it is on men. And that's the way it is. You do have cases where men are stay at home dads and we'll do that because the woman is probably uh, the main bread earner, uh, breadwinner and that does happen sometimes. But generally uh, the mental load is more on the woman than the man. And I would love to
see a day when that becomes more balanced. There are things put in place, paternity leave and things like that, trying to level that up, but we're not quite there yet. >> Amy Bond: I don't think I, I m 100% agree with what you're both saying. And I think it's a chicken or an egg situation which, which comes first because we don't empower our uh, our men and our dads as society to be able to take that burden off of women and moms. And you uh,
mentioned paternity leave just then. You know, my husband was able to take two weeks statutory paternity leave, which is nothing, two weeks to support someone who's just given birth. Two weeks to bond and get to know your baby.
And then particularly for my daughter, she's breastfed and a Velcro baby and so you know, having mum home 24 hours a day, seven days a week doing the feeding and then to expect him after having just two weeks with her to be able to, to care for her in a similar way is, is just, you know, it's, it's, it uh, wouldn't be possible. And I think definitely by you know, enhancing things like paternity leave, giving fathers and men time to bond with
their babies, that would be a huge step. But also I think in particularly in male dominated industries you have got um, the people who are making policy who assume that these things are done by the men. So um, it's My husband's role is a lot less flexible than mine. Um, I am able to sort of work uh, against core hours but I can drop my daughter off and I can pick my daughter up, um, whereas he doesn't
have that flexibility in his role. And I think that that's quite common in male dominated industries to have less flexibility because there's an assumption by policymakers that women are doing that and again, it's the chicken or the eggs. So because I'm the one doing the pickups, because I'm the one doing the drop offs, I'm the one that's going to get a call from nursery if my daughter's not well and needs picking up early. Um, it's not going to go to him because they don't
see too much of him. So it's so tricky. There's so far that we need to go as society to take some of those pressures off women in order, um, to give men the opportunity to have more time to bond with their kids, um, and, and to maybe allow women to progress in their careers, um, without ten times the mental load or whatever it is that we're dealing with. >> Sananda Banerjee: But yeah, you're right. I think this topic takes uh, one complete other podcast
episode. This is uh, quite a debate you can have. >> Amy Bond: So true. We may have got off on a side quest here a little bit, but. >> Sananda Banerjee: Yeah, let's, let's, let's round this up, let's round this up. Uh, so Vanessa, I'll start with you. Uh, what risk jest if women think they need to level up one thing that you think they can start actioning in that direction. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: I would suggest to any woman who wants to level up to be honest with herself first and foremost
about where she's starting from. And there may be some really difficult questions you need to ask even if they're not favourable. Uh, where are you now? And it sounds simple but a lot of people don't ask themselves that question. Where are you now? And then where do you want to be? And in that gap, look at, well, what are the big rocks, the big milestones that you want to achieve and then breaking it down to make it so it's not overwhelming and deal
with one at a time. What is the most obvious step you can take from first to give yourself a little bit of more confidence that you're starting on the path to go to that B that you want to be with if you need a mentor, if you need a coach, if you need a trusted friend to help you through it because you're going to need some accountability, responsibility and support more over and above what you need. You need that support to help
you get there. So be honest about where you are now, look at where you want to go and define what that gap is. >> Sananda Banerjee: Thanks, Vanessa. What about whom? One face. >> Amy Bond: I absolutely love that. I think that that is such an eloquent way of, of, of putting that across. And I
completely agree. I think evaluating where you are and having that brutal honesty with yourself, to say, I may not be exactly where I want to be yet, but by taking these steps, by evaluating where I am now, it gives me a baseline to understand what steps need to be put in place in order to become more proficient and in order to get where I want to go. So I, I would just reiterate everything you've said,
Vanessa. Just being brutally honest with yourself and finding someone, um, either in terms of process, if you've got, um, steps that you can follow to keep you accountable, or somebody who, um, can keep you accountable and you can keep them accountable, um, a colleague, a mentor, a friend, um, is, yeah, incredibly beneficial. >> Sananda Banerjee: So, Amy, it's so interesting. I was just about to talk about finding allies and mentors
at workplace and social spaces. So that inner circle that really helps you, uh, be your critique as well as your cheerleader, where they are cheerleader to you when you really need that, you know, need, uh, that in the moment, but critique, when you really need a push from somebody who's not sugarcoating all the time, who can show you the
mirror when you need, uh. But one thing that I think really stands out is constantly, uh, Although it will take a lot of time for us to say this, uh, this entire piece of, um, same level. There's, I don't think there's same level of men versus women. I think that's a very symptomatic or tip of the iceberg debate. What's actually more important is to know, um, just about your individual strengths, individual areas that you are really good at and you're
building onto it. So rather than trying to find, uh, you know, when we talk about there's glass ceiling and this, that there's, there's a bit of excuse that we are giving to ourselves like an armour, right? I, I, I want to hide behind Amar at times saying that, oh, you know, because things are like this and hence. But what I have, what can I do? As you said, Vanessa, where was the starting point? Where do I need to go? What direction looks like? So divide, be your
own. Uh, you know, you have to take your own charge. There is no other way out. If somebody helps, there's somebody support, great. If not, can't really sit behind and say, oh, because this happened and hence this, I'll have to take charge. It's only me who can do what's. What's needed to build onto, uh, my skills, um, keeping myself updated, finding my mentor, finding allies at workplace who would support me and um, giving myself some. I. I'll
end with what Vanessa said. Giving myself some grace even if I'm not able to do it all. And that's okay. Thank you, Amy. Thank you, Anissa. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: This has been a great chat. Thank you guys. It's been wonderful. >> Amy Bond: Thank you so much guys. It's been so brilliant talking to you both. >> Andrew Jacobs: We always say that there is no agenda. We always say there is no script.
What I do is maybe ask a question in the chat, but we have no idea where the topics were going to go. Levelling up in the UK at least has a specific meaning, but this episode didn't go there at all. How did it feel to you? What would you have discussed if you'd been a guest on this one? Please do let us know what you think. As always, we are incredibly grateful to our guests Vanessa, Amy and Sananda for their amazing contribution to this
episode. You can, as always, find the details in the show notes along with all their links and contact information. You will also find links to some of the things they discuss and topics of interest. We are really on a great run of episodes right now and have many more to come. We're back in a couple of weeks and next time it's the content one. As always, thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon. >> Vanessa Frater Robinson: Sa M.