Before we get started, a quick note. We're running the Podcast Learning Festival in London on Thursday, February 26th at Mary Sumner House in Westminster, central London. It's a one -day event for anyone exploring how audio can change learning at work through stories, conversations and voice. You'll hear from people using podcasts to build connections, share knowledge and shift culture. Expect ideas you can take straight back to your organisation.
To find out more and grab your early bird ticket, go to podcastlearningfest .live. Alright, let's get into the episode. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Female Voice One of the Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. It still frustrates me even now that women are struggling to have their voice heard. That's why we love the fact that we can contribute in some small way for women to do this on the
podcast. With this in mind, we decided to do an episode on the subject with two amazing women, both returning to the podcast. Our first guest is Ainsley Sesniak. She's the founder and CEO of Speak Out Sisterhood, a non -profit empowering young professional women in STEM to be agents of social change. As a third -year Honors Carolina scholar at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, she's studying biology, chemistry and entrepreneurship on the pre -medical track.
Ainsley is incredibly passionate about the power of education, collaboration and social entrepreneurship to drive sustainable progress. Our second guest is Alison Shea. Alison is a fourth -generation educator who couldn't fight her destiny, and she heads up global learning and development for a tech startup. Her background also includes consulting and learning product development.
In addition to speaking at conferences and delivering award -winning workshops, Alison is passionate about volunteering, mentoring and paying it forward. This is an astounding conversation. Recorded in September of 2025, this is Women Talking About Learning, this is Ainsley and Alison talking about female voice. Hey there, my name is Ainsley. I'm really, really excited to be here. I am a junior at UNC Chapel Hill in the United States, and I also am the founder and CEO of a nonprofit
called Speak Out Sisterhood. We're a global nonprofit for young professional women in STEM and something that I really care a lot about. I also care a lot about women's health and particularly closing the gender health gap in medical education. So that's where I'm at. So excited to be here. I'm so excited to talk to you. I am Alison Shea. I am a fourth generation educator. As I like to say, I couldn't fight my destiny kicking and
screaming. And, you know, I was raised by a feminist, by a couple of feminists, actually, both my mom and my dad. And I was taught from a very young age that, you know. girls could do anything boys could do. My mother actually used to rewrite my sexist children's books. And because I couldn't read yet, I didn't know that that's not how the story went until many years later. And so I was really lucky to grow up with all these messages
of empowerment. And I never got told the narratives of like, you know, boys this and girls that, right? It was really about, you know, you can
be anything, you can do anything you want. And so in the work that I do today, which is really helping to make people, you know, sort of better and help people grow and helping to make teams better and managers and organizations and really to smooth out some of the systemic issues we might have that, you know, within the systems that we put together for learning and for growth
and for business getting done. You know, basically, I'm a curious cat who likes to come along and fix things and make things better and see where I can, you know, see where I can help. So that's... doesn't fit neatly on a business card, but that's kind of what I do. I love that. I love that.
I love that so much, especially because education is, as I've gone in through my college career, I have definitely come to appreciate the power of education, particularly in de -stigmatizing things and bridging those gaps and breaking down systemic barriers. So I might go ahead and take your practice of rewriting stories. To get rid of the sexist undertones, because I love that because that's such a good explicit way to combat that kind of attempts to perpetuate a false narrative.
And it can be, you know, and I think that's a really good point. And I think it's one of those things where it can be it can be really sort of public or it can be really private. There's a book that I have from my childhood, which I adore, which is called. Oh, wow. I'm blanking on the name of it. Somebody in the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day. Right. What's the kid's name? I'm totally blanking on whatever. It is. It's Alexander in the terrible, horrible,
no good, very bad day. And it's a really great book. And it's a great book for kids because it's a great book that sort of says, hey. Some days are like that, even in Australia. That's the line in the book. But you get to the to the part about why Alexander's Day is so bad. And it's like, you know, so -and -so's mom packed them this in their lunch. And so -and -so's mom packed this in their lunch. You know, and it's like this just assumption that only mothers are
doing, you know, the lunch packing. And so when I. Oh my gosh, I never would have. Yeah. And I don't know if my mother or father were reading it, like with inclusive language as a child. And that's why I never knew that that's what the words were. But I am I automatically edit it whenever I'm reading it to my kids. Because that's so interesting. Wow. Yeah. I think that's just it like the power of the voice, right? The power of the voice to change things. And so and
I know, yeah, no, no, go ahead. And I know that's what we're here to talk about, right? The female voice and just sort of what we interpret that to be. And I can start if you want, and then we can kind of go from there. I will say, especially recently, I think about the female voice, particularly in terms of sort of the wariness and the danger around using your voice as a woman. There is a lot of discourse on my college campus just
recently about... And just within my friends, too, of how can you use your voice to communicate things that matter to you and speak up for what's right while also protecting yourself at the same time and protecting your peace and your security. So it's a really, really hard line to walk, especially when you add on the element of if you are advocating for women's issues or if you're advocating for, as a young woman, making that part of your identity
when you're talking. When you're speaking out, there's a lot of hesitation and a lot of it, I imagine, is built from a society that we live in that is very antagonistic to women's voices in general and speaking out about things that conflict with a patriarchal society. As a young woman, that is my perspective right now very
much. How can I still start to step into this persona of wanting to speak out about things that I care about, wanting to put my voice in conversations that are really important, but also knowing that I'm still a young woman and that does put me in some degree at a level of vulnerability because of the society that we live in. So just be curious your thoughts on that. Actually, that's a really great point because...
One of the things, especially with growing up with parents who were very active in the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement and in the peace movement, lots of different movements. But my parents were also very focused on humans, right? And on treating people well, even when you opposed each other and opposed different ideas. And my father has been known to go up to people at protests and be like, no, you cannot do that. This is a soldier who is,
you know. who is doing everything they can to keep us safe. You can't treat them disrespectfully, you know, which is really, which is really cool because that's really the way, that's the way free speech should be, right? Like free speech should recognize that free speech has a responsibility. Right. And and so, you know, one of the things I think about. Right. Because you and I are obviously a couple of years apart in terms of our experiences.
And I would say, too, that that because when I went to college, I actually started college when I was in high school. And so I I graduated much younger than people normally graduate from college. So then all of a sudden I was like out in the workforce and I was still. not that much more than a teenager, you know? And so it was an interesting period of time where I was like still young, but like in this more, you know,
kind of grown up world. And one of the things that I think I deal with, and I'm sure you do too, is that we have these moments where we have to make a decision about whether or not we're going to modulate our voice in order to get something done. Because I've been in many, many situations, both in life and in work, where if I say it the same way a man would say it, I will not achieve my goal. But if I say it the way I know will
be effective, I'll achieve my goal. However, to do so may kind of be taking a step back in terms of what should be. But we don't live in the world of should be. We live in the world we live in today. And so here's a perfect example. I have a daughter who's in high school, and she actually is really good at math, really good at STEM. She's taking the AP physics. She's taking all of these classes. And there are not as many
girls in these classes as there are boys. And my daughter is in this position where she is constantly being asked, particularly by boys
in the class, to help them. with their work because they don't understand it so she's been spending time helping others to teach them this material right and then is not viewed as one of the star students despite the fact that her her average like you know grade point average is like supposed to go up to a four right like it's like higher than that you know and i understand it's waiting and all of that sort of stuff but like it's but she's sort of not getting credit for what is
in high school, kind of the unnoticed, unpaid labor that very often in the workplace, you know, is something that women face doing. And, you know, it's just sort of interesting, too, like how there are these different generations, but
there are some themes that run through. one of the reasons that i was really excited not just about being on this podcast because i will be on any podcast that andrew ever asked me to be on honestly um i'll be like oh you want me to talk about astrophysics let me get a learning and i'll get on it you know but um because i know nothing about astrophysics but but The other thing, too, is that, you know, my mother was also a teacher. And my mother was actually, my
mother also was, she loved science. And her favorite New York Times Day of the week was the day that the science section was a big section. It was a long time ago. But anyway, you know, she's always been really good at math. She and I were both mathletes in school. So today is actually her birthday. And yeah, so she actually died in March after a 10 year battle with Alzheimer's.
So it was time. But it was it was sort of interesting to me that this was the day that we were going to be talking about women's voices, because I think one of the things that I learned from my mother was how to use my voice for power, how to use my voice. And and when I say use it, I mean, use. my messaging, use not just my words, but how I said things to try and achieve goals.
And one of the goals that I've really had is not just to seek to inform, which is kind of the bread and butter of what I do, but to, to help people to understand and connect, you know, and to, you know, to help people, especially when two things are true at the same time, right? Like you have very different opinions or experiences or things like that. How can I use my voice in the service of understanding, not just in the service of education? Absolutely. I love everything
you said. And I want to go back particularly to something you mentioned about your daughter not getting credit necessarily for the work that she's putting in. And I think something that I have definitely come to realize as I'm entering the workforce in different capacities is that you sometimes have to explicitly tell somebody, hey, I did this thing. just so that they notice. And I wouldn't be able to, I haven't been able to notice yet whether that is something that
is stratified by the gender that you are. But at the same time, I have noticed that I have had to do that sometimes in my workforce. Tell my boss, hey, I wanted to let you know I did this thing because I want you to know that I did it because it reflects well on me as an employee and it reflects well on my journey through this organization. And doing that is so awkward and so hard and I don't want to do it. But at the
same time, I look at those. interactions. And I'm very glad that I chose to advocate for myself in that way by being so explicit in describing what I've done, because nobody else is going to do that for you. Nobody else is going to notice
those things that you've chosen to do. And it's really hard to find that balance between wanting to inform others of the achievements that you want them to know about while also not coming across as attention seeking or bragging or whatnot, which I know is a very common thing that women have to decide for themselves in the workplace of learning how to advocate. This is something
that my nonprofit does a lot of work in. Our internship program that we run explicitly attempts to teach young college women these skills of self -advocacy, negotiation, public speaking, because they're so often things that you just kind of have to pick up organically through interactions with people, through mentorship and whatnot. But there's never an explicit like, hey, let me sit you down and teach you how to advocate
for yourself. But it's so important and so important to make sure that your voice gets heard in the way that you want it to. So you have control over the narrative and then also in the spaces where you want it to be heard. And I don't know,
it's just been an interesting journey. For me, as somebody who also has always been very open to helping others, not necessarily for the glory, but just for that self -satisfaction of knowing that I did something good for somebody and seeing them grow, having to learn how to also tell people about it at the same time. So then I do get the credit that should be granted, maybe if that wasn't the reason why I did it in the first place, but it's still important for others to recognize
the work that I contribute. I don't know. It's just it's an interesting dynamic as you kind of grow older and you get out of the college kid mindset into the I'm an employee now mindset of how do I protect this journey that I'm building for myself and not discredit the work I've done. I have thoughts if you want. So one of the one of the tactics that that I've used and others used over the years is to like, for example, at work. to send like an end of week roll up,
right? Where you sort of have the bullet points of, you know, just want to keep you apprised of these things. You can design it based on, you know, in your world right now in academia, right? Like you, you know, you may have it something, be something where you're sort of, you know, giving an update on projects or something like that. But like, you know, in the workforce and
for the folks that you're. that you're helping, that you're coaching and upskilling on how to sort of manage this in life, is once you have something documented, it's often more likely to be taken as truth. And it's something you can look back. And so what I would do is I would give the email a particular subject line and then have the dates, because then it's easy to
search for them. So when you want to pull them all together and do like, say, a quarterly report or a year -end look back, you then have all of these things. You can also precede them in terms of as you're doing the work during the week, you just jot it in there. And then you can also schedule them to get sent. In most email clients, you can schedule them to get sent at a certain time and a certain day. That having that already pre -scheduled to go out will likely make sure
that you fill it out before it goes out. Right. So that's a way to keep ourselves honest. But I think it's really helpful because, you know, the other thing, too, is to really think about with any messaging that we have about the work that we're doing is we really want to talk about it, not just in the realm of the task, but in the realm of the outcome. So yeah, like in the case of my daughter, she's doing this tutoring in class for free. And so what is the outcome?
The outcome is she is helping X number of students per week to increase their understanding of physics or whatever the topic is. So I think one of the things that women are very often... I'm going to say it's a combination of put in the position to do and it's also... we feel a responsibility to do. It's hard to say which chicken and which
egg came first there, right? But very often we are in this position of feeling like we should, you know, make the world a better place, which of course everybody should, but we... often do that in a way that's sort of self -sacrificing. And that I think is, it's something we need to sort of kind of pick apart, right? Like in our lives and in our careers. Like, why am I doing this? What is the benefit to me? What is the
benefit to others? And then like, if there's only a benefit to others, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it does mean that maybe. Take some time to think about how do I now turn this into something that's mutually beneficial so that it's not just taking away from like, you know, my education, for example, right? Or it's not just taking time away from the work that I need to do, the work that I'm going to be judged on. So how do I get this work that
I'm sort of doing on the side for free? How do I get that to be part of, you know, how I'm being evaluated and how I'm going to ultimately be compensated? So that's that's one thing. And then the other thing that we should totally talk about is the power of allies and about how do we sort of like, you know, if you want to grow vegetables, which I grew up in New York City.
terrible gardener so i everything i try and grow dies so don't listen to me about gardening advice but my understanding is that you need seeds and you need sunshine you need water and you need all of these things and pick the weeds and make sure there are no bugs that are going to eat them all and all of that and i think that we kind of have to do that about protecting our voices and I happen to have been I started out as a teacher and I taught like everything from
kindergarten to college and then I taught rock climbing because I'm afraid of heights and I still am afraid of heights but I taught a chief learning officer how to rock climb and he said hey do you want a job and that was sort of how I wound up in corporate learning. And that was
many, many years ago. And so now I've been in this space, and it's sort of gone just from like learning and development, but into much more of, you know, organizational development and design and, and, you know, sort of branching out to I've done a lot of DEI work as well, because I'm a human being who likes other human beings and wants everybody to have a place at the table, you know, I think that, you know, one of the things when I think about all of this is sort
of like, What can I do to build not just, you know, not just a way in through the door, but how do I make that door open wider? And how do I how do I help, you know, sort of keep up with these things? And and for that, you know, building a network of allies and activating allies is so important because, well, I've I've been talking for way too long. So you talk now and then I'll tell you the story about an ally in the workplace.
I got so excited when you mentioned the documentation aspect because it immediately made me think about another aspect of women's voices, which is the fact that we are not believed. And the whole argument around believe women, believe women versus that's still not happening. Even when you have so many women coming out to talk about things and being very explicit in describing what has happened to them and still not being
believed. So there's that other element of like, yes, you can take the initiative to speak out and tell people what you've done, what you've experienced, etc. But then there's that element of that, will people then be receptive to your voice and actually listen to you and actually react in the way that they should and take action based on what they've told you? So it's a two -way street in some ways where we need a culture.
both that encourages and amplifies women's voices, but at the same time also is ready to receive them and act on them in a way that they should be. So it's almost like, which one do you start
with, right? I obviously, my work is very much centered on the first part of how can we empower young women to use their voices, get in conversations where they deserve to be and share their ideas, share the concrete strategies that they have for how to make things better and how to... progress societal change because they deserve to be there and because they have those ideas that do matter.
So that's what we focus on, right? But then there is that added element of, well, once they get into these spaces, luckily we have found spaces for young women to be in where they are actually valued and heard and whatnot. But that's not going to be true everywhere, especially when it comes to very sensitive issues that might pit people against each other and pit interest
against each other. So how do you... address that double -sided issue of women's voices needing to be in more spaces but then also making sure those spaces are receptive to women's voices and not discrediting the voices just because they're coming from women um so if you have any thoughts on that I do. I just got so excited when you mentioned documentation. Oh, my gosh. Through my head for the past month. So I have
a story about this. So one of my daughters, who is, you know, I will call a tweenager, you know, not quite a teenager, but but not quite a little kid anymore. And she was dealing with an issue, which if you looked at the fact pattern, it was harassment. Right. But. because it was a middle school -aged issue, what she was being told was, oh, well, it's because he likes you. And I wrote a very pointed letter, which then it got addressed.
But one of the things I said in that letter was, I know in the past we used to explain the reason why a behavior was happening. as part of addressing it. But I'm pretty sure that in this, you know, date here, that is no longer an acceptable way to deal with the fact that someone is doing things that are against the student code. And, you know, and I don't think that even if my daughter understands why this is happening, that should change how
it's impacting her education. So I'd like to know exactly what we're going to be doing to stop the behavior that is not allowed by the school behavioral code. And so I think part of it is, you know, and in that case, I needed to take that sort of like kind of, you know, approach. But there are other times where similar, not necessarily similar facts, but like other times when, you know, someone who's sort of being victimized
by things that are inappropriate. Even if it's not sexual harassment, even if it's, you know, power struggles, whatever, whatever, you know, lack of resources, whatever the situation is, even like in the workplace. I think it's really important for us to make sure that our methodology for addressing problems does not stop at understanding the problem. Right. And that we actually have to get to what is the solution to the problem because we understand why this is a problem and
we understand what's happening. Now let's understand what solution we're going to employ to make that stop happening. And I think that works well with teenagers as well as adults. If we make that part of our formal expectations of what's going to happen and that, and that, I think really like that's like in the formal sense, but then I think there's the informal. sense that this is where, you know, people's unconscious bias around women's voices or women's stories or,
you know, other behaviors. I think that's where that one's a little more tricky because it's not as cut and dry as like, you know, here's the violation, here's the policy, here's how it's, you know, going to be addressed. And that's where I think. Oftentimes, and again, I'm going to back off of things that are egregious, that are crimes and stuff like that, and get much more into the subtle ways that women and their voices are often excluded from halls of power.
One of the things I've experienced a lot over the course of my career is I will say an idea, and then five seconds later, someone who has more power will say my exact same idea, and everybody will go, great idea. Whereas it was like crickets when I said it, you know? And one of the things that I've done is I have people that I'm an ally to, and I have people that are allies for me. And I've had situations where I've literally
been told to stop talking in meetings. And then I had a very senior gentleman in the meeting go. I want to hear what Allison has to say, because she always has the really good ideas. And it was really cool to like have somebody have my back like that. And I've had meetings where I have strategized ahead of time with people where there was an ongoing issue of only certain people being listened to or talked to or called on or
whatever. And really to sort of tag team it because if you're tag teaming it, right, and you know, and maybe the person that you're tag teaming with is like the golden child that day, right? And like, they always get called on. But if they get called on, and then they call on somebody
else before they see their time, right? And they're like, Oh, you know what, Ainsley, I'd love to hear what you think about this, then, you know, then Ainsley doesn't get shut down in the meeting, because Ainsley has already been given the floor. And so sometimes sort of having that That sort of, you know, verbal dance essentially kind of worked out ahead of time. The other thing, too, is to pay attention. Right. Like who is getting
more airtime? Try and figure out why and try and figure out, like, is it a problem or is it not a problem? I mean, maybe that person really is the expert in the room and maybe it has nothing to do with anything else. But we do know that when more voices are involved. we tend to come up with better solutions than when we just talk into an echo chamber. And so I think it's really important that we be really strategic about making sure that we're getting that full feedback. Absolutely.
One of the things that I'm noticing throughout this conversation is that we're focusing a lot on having to very explicitly call out behaviors that are attempting to suppress women's voices or just antithetical to the idea of having equal representation of all voices. And I find that so interesting because it sort of is reflective of how a lot of the suppression of voices can be very implicit, very, very, very not invisible
so much as just not obvious. And so the remedy to that, obviously, is trying to be as explicit as possible and calling out those behaviors, calling out those situations where voices are not being taken seriously. Which is frustrating then for, like, say, for instance, I'm in a room and this is a true example, I guess. I've been in rooms where I've been very much the youngest person there, the only young woman there. And
there are people I don't know. But I have a question for somebody in that room and I want to ask it or somebody in the room. This actually did happen to me. Somebody in the room was talking about things that they potentially could do to help support college women. And it was so funny to be sitting there being like, hi, you know, I'm a college woman. I should probably like speak up about this. And so this was this internal
battle in me of like, should I? kind of speak out and say like hey i kind of want to contradict everything you're saying because you think that you know what it's like to be a college woman but i am standing here with the experiences of being a college -age woman right now and i know that everything you're saying doesn't really actually align with like what would be most helpful for us um so this was this internal battle of me of being like should i say something should
i just kind of sit and wait because i'm not really comfortable yet in this space but i did end up raising my hand i did end up saying like as a college woman actually you know i would love to tell you this and i found i don't know it was just it put me in that position now of having to kind of be not only on the attack of saying hey let me just like let you know the thing that you're saying is not completely true um and then also on the defense of like now putting myself
out in this space as somebody who potentially could be a troublemaker or whatnot of trying to contradict what the expert opinion in the room is putting out there which is unfair to me then because that's putting so much of a burden on me to have to carry all of that when in reality what I'm really just doing is trying to make sure that the narrative is correct so it's bothersome that a lot of the weight is put on the people who are also trying to navigate the fact that
they are being silenced and being um ignored and and all of that and i still to this day even find myself somewhat hesitant in certain places in certain rooms um because you have that element of all the different identities that you have right is that um Those impact the way that you present yourself in a space and the way that you choose to interact with the different people
in that space. And so for me, my identities of being a young person and then also a woman really kind of compound sometimes in spaces where I know I really want to speak up about what's being said. I know I want to try to set the record straight, but I also recognize that people are really going to look at me as very much an outsider, both because I'm a young person and also because
I'm a woman. It's a difficult place to be. And I think this is really why, like you said, having allies is so important because one of my favorite people in the whole world, he's a fantastic mentor to me and he's such a feminist and I love him for it because he sometimes doesn't even intentionally, but when we're in conversation, he'll just say something that's like, I'm like, I wish there were more people like you generally in the world
who recognize that the challenges that. In this case, again, we're specifically talking about women, the challenges that women face in being taken seriously, etc. And I'm so grateful for the people like him who are not by any means a woman, could not possibly understand on a personal level what it's like, but at the same time are stable enough in their own identity to recognize that people of an identity different than theirs need their support and need their vocal support.
I am just so grateful for the people that have been allies for me. And I hope to be the same kind of ally to others, right? I'm entering my junior year now, so I'm in my junior year. So definitely kind of in that middle ground of being a mentor to some people while also a mentee. And it's such an interesting place to be getting to kind of reflect on what has helped me become so confident in my voice while also still learning from the people who have made me that confident
person. You know, I think you raise a couple of many, many excellent points. And so one of them I want to just sort of go back to is that, you know, the visibility pieces is very key, you know, because we often don't, we look at people and we think we know them, right? Or we hear them speak. We think we know them. We think we know what makes them up. We think we know their experience, but we're generally wrong about
that. And so I think it's. I always, when I speak up for certain things, I'm always speaking up for the person in the room who can't, you know, because they're, you know, they are in hiding in plain sight. And so that's something I try and think about within my sphere of power. But the other thing, too, is we have to really think about the difference between speaking up just, you know, sort of speaking truth to power. That
definitely has its place, right? But I think we also need to think about what is the outcome we're trying to achieve, right? Do we want to change this one person's language in this meeting, like at the risk that they feel ashamed and then never talk about it again when they actually have the power to make some change? Or do we want the change, right? And so very often when I'm in that situation, what... I try and do is figure out how I can sort of rather than speak
up to them, right? I try and see how I can partner with them and springboard what I am trying to share using what they're saying, even if I may think that what they're saying is totally bonkers and absolutely wrong. How can I then scoop them up and bring them along with me on this journey towards the better future that we want? Because, you know, what is that? You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, kind of
saying that my grandmother had. And so, you know, I think that that's a really important thing. It's so often when we have these differences, it's so important, I think, to think about somebody who maybe they just don't know better. Right. And like, you know, like Maya Angelou said, like when you know better, you do better. And I think
so often if we can gently bring them. along and bring them up to speed so they know better it's much more effective in the long run than making everything a fight and and i remember um when i was in college we had these take back the night marches to you know to really try and address the problems of you know uh women being sexually assaulted and raped and things like that but the thing that bothered me is that they didn't allow men to be on the march and i was like women
don't get safer if it I'm older than you. It was a long time ago. But like, you know, maybe now it's everybody. I don't know. But I would actually help plan the march, but I could never get the folks who did these marches to change and like make it all inclusive. And so I would never go on the march because I had failed in
trying to open it up. being confident and speaking out is just being very grounded in my values and the person that I want to be in the space and the impression that I want to give and the messages that I want people to sort of associate with me. And that's a really hard thing to come up with. It takes a lot of like self -reflection and self -awareness to ground yourself in who you are. But I've found it to be such a powerful way. vulnerability. Like, absolutely. It's, it's
almost like fear of literacy, right? Like, it's not, it's not like, you know, not being afraid, it's being afraid and maybe doing it anyway. It's like becoming being able to sit with the things that we're still afraid of at the same time that we're moving forward to, to a place where, you know, like, like I mentioned before, I started rock climbing because I'm afraid of heights. I am still afraid of heights. I still rock climb. But like, you know, I didn't conquer
the fear. I grew to, you know, hold hands with it and live with it in a way that I could still keep climbing up metaphorically and realistically. Yeah, I say all this to say when I think about using our voices at some, you know, the choice
to use your voice. is a personal choice and so to some degree it does connect back to why you're using your voice and how you hope to be received so i i wish i'd known sooner how to and i actually you know my journey in becoming more confident and speaking out about things i believe really has come from putting myself in places where i knew i wasn't comfortable having those conversations yet but i wanted to become more comfortable So I interned with a reproductive health organization
nonprofit last summer, and it made me so much more confident in having conversations about things related to reproductive health and reproductive justice because I was actively being exposed to very factual evidence -based conversations by the people in these organizations and their partners. And having that deep -rooted knowledge of... The facts and the evidence in these situations has made me so much more comfortable in speaking
about them because I know what's true. I know what I what I value and I know what is is is what what cannot be contradicted. So I would say to if I could talk to my younger self, I could talk to other young people like myself. I would say learning what your values are, learning how learning the truth behind the things you want to speak about. is so grounding and so important for helping you build that confidence and that competence when you do decide to make your voice
heard. It sort of goes along with that idea of walk softly and carry a big stick, right? And it's so often we think we just have to get louder to be heard. And I found both with children and with adults, sometimes what we really need to do is to just talk a little quieter. And people then sometimes lean in and, you know, and I In the case of small children, then you can grab
them and get them in the car seat. But in the case of executives, it's very often the case that when we get them listening in a calm, quiet conversation. we're often able to make a lot more headway towards understanding than when our conversations are big and loud and all of those walls and defenses are up and the brain is busy thinking about the comeback instead of listening to the words that you're saying. And
it makes a huge, huge difference for us. And yeah, the burden is often on us to like... take some time at the beginning of the conversation, to take some time at the beginning of the presentation to figure out like, okay, and recognizing that I'm looking out at my audience and I'm making assumptions based on how they look, just like they're looking at me and making assumptions based on how I look, right? Like, what is the tactic here? What does the room feel like? But
what is my main goal? What do I need them to walk away knowing, to walk away thinking, to walk away believing, to walk away doing? And how long do I need them to do that for? Do I need them to do that for the election tomorrow? Or do I need them to do that for the world their great -grandchildren will live in? And all of that really makes a difference in how I approach it. I find it's much more of an art than a science.
But like science, we often have to have a lot of failed experiments in order to get to that one beautiful, you know, cure. So I guess we just have to keep trying. Well, it was so great to talk to you. This was so wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. Oh, thank you so much. It was great to hear your voice and learn about, you know, what you're doing. And I'm going to follow your journey because I'm sure we're going to see amazing things that you continue to work
on as you go through school and beyond. We love this episode. Both of our guests shared some great advice on getting their voices heard and also the difficulties they've encountered. A massive thank you to Ainsley and Alison for their insight into this topic and for their time in making this a brilliant recording. We know you'll want to connect with them afterwards and their details are in the show notes, along with information about how to connect with us here at Women Talking
About Learning. Remember to like and subscribe to the podcast on your podcast player. It does make a real difference in helping people find and recommend us. We'll be back in a couple of weeks and next time it's a returning topic. the more content one. As always, thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.