>> Andrew Jacobs: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the Accessibility One of the Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. We love the random nature of guest selection for the podcast. People express an interest and we pair them up. We had no idea that our guests today knew each other and had chatted several times before. They were eager to tell us how they create ways to make learning accessible for as many people as possible.
Our first guest is Susie Miller. Susie is an internationally recognised expert in E learning accessibility dedicated to helping organisations create inclusive and effective digital learning experiences. With over 30 years experience in learning development, she is passionate about ensuring accessibility is embedded in digital learning, not just as a compliance requirement, but as a core principle of effective.
She was honoured as the Learning Performance Institute's Learning Professional of the Year Gold winner, uh, in 2025 for her contributions to accessibility and digital learning. Our, uh, second guest is Gemma Nunn. Gemma is the head of Learning Design at Mint Interactive. With over 20 years of experience in learning and development, she began her career as a web developer before transitioning to teaching in further and higher education, ultimately specialising in E learning development.
Passionate about accessibility, Gemma has shared her insights on various podcasts and seminars. She aims to create inclusive and engaging learning experiences that ensure education is available to everyone. We learned a lot from this episode. Catch up at the end to find out what recorded in mid of March this year. This is women talking about learning. This is Susie and um, Gemma talking about accessibility. >> Gemma Nunn: Hi Susie, how are you doing?
>> Susie Miller: I'm very well, Gemma, how are you? It's great to see you again. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, you too. It's been a while, hasn't it? I think the last time I saw you was at Learning Tech. Was it Learning Tech last year? >> Susie Miller: I think so, yeah. It's been a long while, hasn't it? Although we have had a couple of conversations around, uh, accessibility issues and web content, accessibility guideline standards, I think. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
>> Susie Miller: Some complexities that we've been discussing, but, uh, yeah, no, it has been a while until we've seen each other face to face. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah. And of course, uh, you've been picking my brains about the technical aspects of accessibility. >> Susie Miller: Definitely, definitely. Which is a great introduction to, um. One of the things that I was really interested in, um, is how you got interested in accessibility and how you found your way to it.
>> Gemma Nunn: Um, well, I kind of fell into it, to be perfectly honest with you. Um, I started out in web development. Very early days. We're talking really early days of the intern. Um, I remember building my first website on GeoCities. >> Susie Miller: Wow. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah. Um, and obviously I got into the design and coding aspect of it and I worked as a web developer for a while
and then got into teaching. Um, and then it wasn't until I, I got into the sort of E learning side of things that I actually, um, started looking at accessibility more. Um, I was working for an elearning department at the college where I used to teach. >> Susie Miller: Oh, okay. >> Gemma Nunn: And it, it was quite interesting to me because I used to work with a lot of, um, students who had various learning difficulties and specific needs, neurodivergencies, that sort of thing.
And I noticed that a lot of the stuff that we're building wasn't very user friendly. Yeah. And that's what really kickstarted accessibility for me. And the more I learned about it, the more I sort of started to think about, well, how can we make these things more access? And then ultimately it led to me becoming the accessibility person on my team. And um, that continues to this very day, even in my current role.
>> Susie Miller: Brilliant. So I think that was, I think that's really interesting for me because I think my uh, my path was more sort of the learning side of things. So obviously I, um, was also kind of L and D and teaching as well. And I think, um, one of the things that I talk about a lot when we're talking about accessibility is how you first got into it and I. The same as you, I think, when you
experience. So for me, when I first started it was having a blind student in my class when I was teaching overseas. That was the kind of, you know, what I call the accessibility spark that really kind of got me. You know, it's that, that realisation that what I'm doing is actually stopping someone from being able to learn the content that I'm so passionately trying to tell them, you know, or trying to, to teach them. So I
think that that was a big thing for me. But I think also it was then, um, when I got more into elearning as well, it was kind, um, being aware that, uh, I actually didn't know as much about the technical side of things. And that's why it's so interesting to hear your
background about it. Because I think the thing about accessibility is that there is obviously it is very technical, particularly when we're looking at, for example, when we talk about the web content accessibility guidelines, sometimes you're kind of faced with the fact that yes, you want to make your learning content as accessible, but the standards or the guidelines that are there to
help you, um, are actually very technical. There's a lot of coding involved and a lot of complex kind of technological language that can really put people off. So how do you manage to, in your team, kind of get people on board? Do you find that accessibility spark is something that you've noticed that they kind of. Some just get it sometimes because of an experience or, you know, is it a gradual thing?
>> Gemma Nunn: Recently it's been more of a thing because we've actually been putting our teams through some basic accessibility training. Um, it's mainly to take the pressure off me because for a long time I was the only person in our team who was, who was looking at accessibility, um, and trying to drive it as part of my role. Because my role is I'm head of learning Design. So that was a big thing for me to get across when I stepped into that role little over a year ago now.
Um, but the team have been doing some very basic training on it, just getting some ideas of how they can improve their, their user interface designs when they're creating sort of the, the look and feel for elearning. Um, and some of the team have also been kind of very interested, particularly from the animation side of things because we do a lot of um, animated videos as our thing.
Um, and there is the um, you know, we use GIFs just to add a little bit of movement to some screens because especially in items like, like products like storyline and stuff like that, you've got very basic animations. >> Susie Miller: Yeah. >> Gemma Nunn: Sometimes having just a little bit of movement can be. Make it a bit more visually pleasing. But, uh, on the flip side you've got to take it into account that not everybody is going to be able to have that experience. It
might be detrimental to that experience. Or in a nutshell, learning about accessibility of animation and video has been quite interesting for a lot of members of my team. And um, I've actually had a couple of them saying, can we learn more? And I'm like, yes. >> Susie Miller: That's music to your ears, isn't it? >> Gemma Nunn: Oh, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. >> Susie Miller: Yeah. I think the thing for me is the, I suppose it is that something that I continuously kind of um, learn when
I'm doing accessibility is just that. And that I think is so important to get across. Obviously, obviously, uh, making learning content accessible. We're both very, very passionate about it is we believe, you know, the right thing to do. It's definitely you don't want to have any learning experiences that exclude, you know, that you. That willfully, you know, could be excluding people. But I think the, the thing for me that comes
across particularly. And I know you do some auditing as well, but, um, the thing about the experience I have when I audit is seeing, first of all, it's such a fantastic learning experience to be able to see other people's learning content and then to be able to see, okay, this is the content before it was accessible and this is how it looks
now and that transformation. And I think that when you were talking about your learning practitioners suddenly being really excited about this, because it is something that really, really improves learning, it improves your practise as a learning practitioner because you suddenly, you stop thinking, well, this is. I've thought, this is the way I've always designed or I've always developed and it's, you know, I know this works. And it just broadens your perspective because you need to
see things from a different point of view. But also ultimately, for me, from a business point of view, is how much more effective, accessible learning content is and how much better a, uh, learning experience we're actually providing for people when accessibility is considered in the process. And it's so lovely to hear, you know, that your designers, you know, they get on board and they realise, actually this is a really great thing for learning. It's not just the right thing to
do. It has a really positive, positive, beneficial impact on the learning experience and the effectiveness of the learning. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, you can't innovate if you don't step out your comfort zone. And for a lot of my, A lot of my team and for myself as well, it has been a step out of the comfort zone. It's doing things in a different way. Yeah.
And I suppose the best thing I can compare this to is the last time I had a sort of massive change and so in web design, um, was when we went to the, uh, mobile first way of thinking of web design, because that was a completely different way of doing things. Thinking about it from a mobile user's perspective and then building it up to the full realised website, uh, on the desktop. It's now the same. It's now a very similar thing with accessibility.
You think about accessibility first and then you build up your product or your website or your app. You know, there's so many different ways of, um, you know, digitise and learn these days that you just build it up from an accessibility mindset first and then you can bring in things like your, uh, mobile responsive. Because mobile responsive design is, it's another form of accessibility when you think about
it, because it's learning on the go. Definitely, definitely I think it's getting people into the mindset of this is just a new way to design. We're not going to change anything major, we're just changing the order a little bit. Is that we're just going to do, we're just going to do things a little bit differently. We're just going to think about, you know, how we can make this more accessible.
But, uh, but I do think that many uh, people I know that this is something that I've had a lot of comments about from various people I've talked to, um, about accessibility is the overwhelming sort of aspect of it, of this. There's so much to think about and how do you fit it all in? And is there, ah, you know, where's the balance? Where's the give and take? And I know a lot of people feel if it's not fully accessible it's going to fail. And I, uh, think a lot of people
worry about that. I know it was something that definitely worried me and I mean have you ever come across anything like that? >> Susie Miller: Yeah, I mean I think the, obviously from my, my experience was, as I said, I didn't have that technical background that you had and so the coming into accessibility I didn't know very much at all. I mean when I started I knew nothing about accessibility. So when I tried to find out more about it it was very much kind of web based, so
very much technical based. And um, I felt completely out of my depth. I, I thought, you know, this is, there's no way I'm ever going to understand that. And then when I got into really thinking about this is something that I really want to do. There were, there were no jobs available for anyone involved in accessibility and learning, which is why I started, you know, my, because it was
the only way that I could do the job that I wanted to do. But when I started looking at um, it was that the timing was around the um, public sector bodies accessibility regulations which were absolutely crucial in um, making the web content accessibility guidelines, the standards that were kind of legally that need to be required in public sector and were best practise everywhere else.
And when I actually came to try and understand those and to apply them to a learning context, I was so baffled by the whole thing and so uh, conscious of the fact that I didn't have a technical background, I wasn't a coder and there were so many uh, occasions where I was thinking, I just can't do this, I'm going to give up because it's just too difficult. And then I Suppose just finding out recently that I, that I am neurodivergent and whether stubborn, whether stubbornness is
part of that or whether it is. I think I'm dyslexic. So we'll talk about your neurodivergence in a bit. But um, my dyslexia, um, means that and I think a lot of people possibly who are very, very good trainers and you know, in, in our industry maybe have a slightly different way of thinking. So I suppose, although I felt like giving up so many times, I actually thought, no, I
need to make sense of this. And so I will come up with a framework that, that, that makes sense to me that I can actually kind of, you know, so I can explain it to people because I was having to train it as well. And it was that really, that was at ah, the heart of the book when I wrote Designing Accessible Learning Content because it was trying to make sense of it and then finding more since I found out
I was dyslexic. Finding out more about dyslexic thinking skills are, you know, really key skills are actually like you're saying, being able to think out of the box, think differently and take complex, really, really complex ideas and simplify them. And a lot of that is because you need to simplify them yourself. So that makes it, you know, I can't train something unless I have really understood it. I'm not able to kind of do them. Um, you know, I'll just get
by. I really have to understand it to be able to. And that is exactly the strength that I had when I was, um, you know, when I was writing the book. Because I was thinking, right, yeah, I'm just, this is just too
overwhelming. I'm going to have to give up on it. So. And then I suppose now, uh, if you think about when we started being interested in accessibility and applying it to learning where we are now, that is the great thing is that we've come on a long way so there's so many more people interested in it and there's so many people that, that um, you know, there's so many more resources out there which are focusing much more on learning content, not specifically just
on the website. And I agree with you completely. Um, it isn't just a website that you're thinking about when you're looking at learning content. But you know, it's, it's. So there are so many more resources out there that m. It doesn't mean it does. It isn't sometimes overwhelming. But I think there's just it feels like there's more of a safety net.
>> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I don't know what I would do without your book, frankly, because I found the way that you explain certain things. >> Susie Miller: I wasn't trying to get you to say that. >> Gemma Nunn: Hey, I will say it quite willingly to anybody who will listen. If you ask anybody in the office, it's like, what are the few things that you'll find on Gemma's desk? You'll find her little Iron man plushie
because I'm a massive nerd. You'll find a bottle of water, a cup of coffee and Susie Miller's accessibility book. >> Susie Miller: I'm very, very flattered, honestly. I honestly wasn't genuinely trying to get you to say that, but that's very. >> Gemma Nunn: Kind of you, but, yeah, it's, um, the overwhelming trying to make it make sense. Because one of the things about the guidelines, and that's the key word here, the guidelines. Yeah. Is that they're subjective and open to multiple
interpretations. I mean, um, there is. We have a client who are very, very strict on their accessibility. Yep. Um, it is non negotiable. If it's not access, it's not passing, it's not going live. So, um, they have their own internal team who look at accessibility and make sure that it's, you know, it works. >> Susie Miller: Yeah, um, within their organisation. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, exactly. >> Susie Miller: Okay. Yeah.
>> Gemma Nunn: But, um, their interpretation of accessibility is different to ours in some cases. >> Susie Miller: Okay. >> Gemma Nunn: And they are predominantly looking at it from a coding background, which, you know, I can understand, but a lot of members of my team struggle with. Because they're not, they're not coders. They're either from a learning or a design background.
>> Susie Miller: Yeah. >> Gemma Nunn: So there is, um, you know, sometimes there is a case of butting heads and trying to understand the, uh, you know, the. Each other's interpretation of a specific guideline. But what I find is if you sit down and talk to somebody about their interpretation of a guideline and then explain your side, you can usually find a common middle ground on it. I agree. And then find something that works for that piece of learning,
that bit of interaction. Because the other complication is, is that not every learning, um, E learning digital, whatever, it's not everything's the same. You're never going to have an exact same format or layout for a course. >> Susie Miller: Definitely. >> Gemma Nunn: Um, it's having something that you can refer to to give you a start, give you a guide. But then you've got to think about it. Okay, how's this going to work within terms
of learning? How's this going to work with in terms of the technical side. >> Susie Miller: I agree. >> Gemma Nunn: And then just getting it all to sort of fit together. It's like uh, it's like one of those 3D jigsaw puzzles where you've got a piece that you think goes up here but it actually goes down there. And you know, it's just trying to find the balance to get all the pieces in place so that you've got a balanced learning experience that is engaging, um, does the job, it's meant to
and is accessible. So it's just, you know, it's a tall order and again the overwhelm, it can be a lot sometimes. >> Susie Miller: Yeah. So I think that's a really important point. I think that's something that I. Yeah, I think when I started because of my own um, you know, a uh, feeling of inadequacy and not being. Having a technical background is always thinking, well the reason that this is not clear to me or the reason is because I don't understand
it. You know, it's the coding that is the, is the issue. You know, I'm not technical enough. But the more um, that I've experienced and it sounds exactly, very, very similar to you, the more audits I've done and the more teams, like internal teams that I've worked with is that there is this, this
interpretation. And I think one of the key things about which I probably put in the second edition of the book based on this experience is the fact that there is that um, as you say, sometimes, because you're looking at it as a piece of learning content and not a website, you know, it's not an E commerce site or uh, you know, uh, just an informational website. It piece of learning that is interactive and you want it to be engaging and you want it to be
effective. You know, you have learning objectives and outcomes that you're trying to reach. And if you are applying the web content accessibility guidelines because they weren't written for learning content, you are sometimes left in a position where you need to be making the interpretation, you need to be making the judgement call on whether you are going to stick rigidly to this or are you going to interpret it. So this is the way that I think it will work best
for the learning outcomes for my learners. And that
is a very subjective decision. And I think until I'd, I'd kind of experienced, as I say, I'd done so many audits and had this experience with, you know, working with different people who were helping me with the audits and having these discussions and also, as you say, sometimes with internal, um, you know, um, accessibility experts within organisations that I was working with, that I now am, um, very, what uh, I call kind of honest about accessibility.
So if I'm making an interpretation, so if I'm doing an audit or if I'm doing my own learning, learning content and I'm interpreting, putting my own interpretation on how I think this guideline can help learners, I will say that. I will say this is my interpretation. Not everybody is going to agree with me. Not every accessibility expert will agree with me. And that is just so liberating to be able to think. Actually, I know I'm being honest. Uh, it's not
that. I don't know, it's that I think that this is my interpretation. And that for me was, as I say, it just makes you feel that horrible feeling of. That you're making mistake. We've talked before about that idea of progress over perfection. When you start, it's so important that you kind of, you know that you, you take a step. Even every small step you take is having a huge impact, you know, and the, the fear
of making a mistake. And some, you know, when I look back on some of the things that I used or said, maybe, you know, um, God forbid, look at any of the, you know, things that I said five years ago, but it's that it's so important, I think, that you, that you kind of, you're, we're so passionate about it that it pushes you, as you said before, out, uh, of your comfort zone and you're so committed to doing it that you're, you're willing to do it, even though, you know, sometimes it feels really,
really uncomfortable. So. And I think coming back to that idea of burnout that we. That is a really good point because you were talking about that. Um, you know, we've talked about that before as well. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, accessibility burnout is a thing. Um, I didn't realise it was the thing until, um, we actually talked about it. But I think thinking back now, um, I definitely
went through accessibility burnout. And it did make me sort of, kind of say, stop, I need to take a step back and reset and restart. And, um, I mean, just kind of talking about neurodivergencies. I was diagnosed with adhd. >> Susie Miller: Okay. >> Gemma Nunn: Um, which explains a lot. And it's also given me a bit more of a insight into why I do things the way I do, why I learn things the way I do, why I hyper focus on things. I mean, it's one of the big things for me is, um, if I'm
learning a new topic, I go all in. I hyper focus. I just. It is the interest. And the thing about accessibility is it keeps changing. So I've got more to learn and more to learn. But on the backside of that, the downside really is that it can be a lot. And you think, oh, am I doing it right? Am I, am I, um, am I doing right by the people who have put this trust in me to give them advice? And you do have this whole imposter syndrome thing. And I think it's. I
think as a woman as well, it's. You do get that sense of. I'm talking about something that's quite technical and, and unfortunately, um, we still have that. Um, it's not as bad as it was when I first started in the web industry. Um, but there's still the whole, ah, oh, women don't code, women don't game. Um, it was a lot worse when I first started in the industry. It was actually quite misogynistic in places. Very toxic. >> Susie Miller: Yeah, yeah.
>> Gemma Nunn: It's a bit of a different feel environment now, but there's still that, that with neurodivergence you've got that, that sort of, um, slight imposter syndrome, thinking, am I doing this right? And applying it. >> Susie Miller: Yeah, definitely. >> Gemma Nunn: Um, but, um, you know, there is also the other factors that are coming into this whole idea of accessibility. First, there's, um, there's the AI, um, issue as well. Issue, uh, topic. I, I don't quite know how to refer to it.
>> Susie Miller: Opportunity. >> Gemma Nunn: I mean, there is a lot of people I've noticed who are talk maybe using AI to help look at an audit. Accessible, um, learning for accessibility. >> Susie Miller: Okay, absolutely. >> Gemma Nunn: I mean, I mean, how do you feel about that? Because I'm a little dubious, but I've always been quite dubious of AI. You know, this is how we get Skynet. This is how Terminator movies happen.
>> Susie Miller: So I think that's. Yeah, I think for me, the, I suppose that the, the, the similarities like, um, we've had, we've had tools that have helped us um, automatically check learning content for a long. Oh, sorry. Um, you know, accessibility for a long time. And it's a little bit like the, those, the tools that are, uh, you know, they've, they're widely used now for websites, for example. They're, they're kind of. And I still think this is
about, about the right percentage. People consider them to be about 30% accurate because there is only a certain amount that a machine is able to do. And just one really simple example that I use when I'm talking about that is alternative text. So obviously a machine can tell you whether it's alternative text and it's more sophisticated now, so it can obviously tell you whether the alternative text is correct. However it can't tell you the
context. So for example, even something as simple as when we're doing auditing, um, is we have to make that judgement call on whether somebody has used alternative text. Is that, is that adding to the learning? Is it adding to the meaning or is it decorative? And that's something that when we're doing an audit I tend to stay quite well clear of unless it's someone's for example forgotten to change the file name and the screen reader is announcing the, you know, JPEG 3.
4. 2.1. But that for me is a good kind of example of just how limited, you know, machine learning or AI is when you're looking at trying to do the accessibility audit. So it definitely has a place and it can definitely um, speed it up. But I think there's always a place and it's the same I think with any AI. It's a really, it's a good starting point. So for example, some of the couple of things that I, I use it a lot for is um, reading level. So you know, I'm making. So that really saves
a lot of time for me. And also another thing that is, is actually coming up with alternative text. So there are a lot of really good um, alt text, um, you know, uh, use if you use any of the AI tools. I mean even chat GBP has a, you know, has an alt text and it's a great starting point. So there are things for example that I will post on social media now because I know that I can get ChatGPT to actually start, start me off on a good
um, um. Rather than. I wouldn't have posted that before because it would have taken me too long to come up with a, um, you know, with alternative text for it. So I think there are some really, really exciting things and things for example like um, um, avatars, you know, so things like sign language, um, avatars for example, which are really exciting and you know, where organisations before maybe wouldn't have had the, or the resources to consider providing
sign language. And it is, I know before, you know, they've had a lot of difficulty making the sign language avatars, you know, effective because obviously they're so um, you know, their expressions need to be so, you know, before it was like, well this is Far too complicated. But we're, you know, we're in a different place now. The technology is there and so there's some really, really
exciting things I think that can. And also from a point of our point of view, being neurodivergent idea of actually having, having, you know, being able to, uh, personalise the content so it meets your requirements, I think is exciting as well. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, chat GPT with alt text. Alt text is the one that I always struggle with and I think a lot of people do as well. >> Susie Miller: I do agree. >> Gemma Nunn: Um, but I absolutely chat GPT.
I do use it to help me get started on alt text because sometimes I look at an image and I'm just like, I've got nothing, I've got nothing. I mean, what. This is the context, this is what. It's okay. I mean, to be honest, a lot of the images I tend to only need to write alt text for are really complex images like flowcharts and diagrams and stuff like that. Yeah, it's just, I'll look at it and my brain just goes, nope.
>> Susie Miller: No, exactly. I think the complex images are so, well, well, you know, at least that, uh, you know, even when you say, you know that can you do a full description or can you just do like what you would put as a, you know, two line alt text or what? This is explaining for me and again, maybe that's partly because of my dyslexia, my neurodivergence is that I find that
incredibly difficult. So, you know, but even if I'm just, you know, I don't know, something that's quite straightforward that I put on LinkedIn, for example, you know, before I would have thought, oh, I can't put that picture on because I'm gonna have to write alt text for it. And, and now it's just, this is a great starting point and, and um, it just is a great way of kind of explaining how AI can um, really help with accessibility. But saying being really,
um, clear that it's not going to. It's like overlays, when we're talking about overlays on websites, that it can actually make things worse for people and then trying to being able to solve everything. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the overlays, I know that that was a bit of a debate over the last couple of years, but I've always stayed clear of them and I don't recommend them to anybody. I say no, just if you're going to do accessibility, do
it right. Don't just put it overlay on because it's not going to work the way you think and definitely not with some of the software that we use to develop eLearning because they've got their own coding system and it's going to interact differently. But I don't think people really think about that. They just think of it as a quick fix. But accessibility is not quick fix.
>> Susie Miller: It isn't. I agree. And I think that's one of, one of the misconceptions, isn't it, that you, that you can just easily fix something. You know, it's that uh, obviously we come back to all the time is the thinking about accessibility up front. And if you're trying to retrofit accessibility in alert, I mean it's possible but you know, we've seen it with auditing that people can, you know, can go back and make things more accessible, which is, which is great.
But obviously I think there's a, that analogy that we have of the um, blueberry muffins. Do you know that one from an accessibility? >> Gemma Nunn: I don't think so, but I'd love, I'd love to hear it. I'm sure, I'm sure everybody would love to hear that one. >> Susie Miller: Okay. Well, it's quite an old one and then there's been like some, then you know, toing and froing about whether it is. But it works really well for me. Um, and again, don't know if that's because of my
brain, the way my brain works. But the idea is that you have um, the accessibility is a bit like a blueberry muffin because if, and particularly important is the blueberry muffin. Because if you think of a blueberry muffin, if you kind of open the blueberry or when you bite into a blueberry muff muffin, the blueberries have kind of all spread through the uh, the mixture and it's all
kind of baked in and it's all delicious. So. And, and this is the bit that really works for me is if you try and retrofit accessibility, it's a bit like having a plain muffin and shoving the, except shoving the blueberries in at the end. So yes, it, it can work. You can say, yes, this is an uh, a uh, blueberry muffin or you can say this is inaccessible. But if you haven't thought about it up front, if you think about it up front changes the way and it's so integrated
and you know what I mean? And it's such a better learning experience. So uh, I suppose it's. The point is it is possible to do and again, when we do auditing work, we show people how they can improve it. But if you have that mindset when you start out, that this needs to be uh, an equal learning experience and everyone needs to have equal access.
It is just a different experience for kind of like, than it is than if you kind of think about it at the end and think, oh goodness, I've forgotten to kind of put any alt text on or you know. Yeah, you just think. You just think in a different way. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah. And that's a really good analogy actually. I mean I am now craving blueberry muffins. But, you know, that's a, That's a me problem. It's fine. It is a really good analogy.
>> Susie Miller: I focused on them now that I've told you that on YouTube. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah. It's just like, yo, thank you ADHD brain. >> Susie Miller: So I think the um, thinking about that the, the aspect from, from women probably comes um, maybe comes back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier. Gemma. I think for me I agree with you. I think the fact that um, it is such a technical accessibility can be such a technical area.
It can sometimes feel. You uh, know that this, that maybe the imposter syndrome is kind of. Maybe a little bit more acute if you don't have that technical. And that can sometimes be related to gender as well. I think, you know, for me it's kind of like who am I to be writing a book about accessibility? You know, Um, I don't have the experience. I don't. You know what I mean? So I think
that. I think the. I suppose that the messages that we've said about um, the imposter syndrome and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, I think, and the progress over perfection is really um, is so important because it's such an important, important things. So you really are. I can't stress this enough. Just one person is what I call quiet accessibilizing because it's that idea of, remember of quiet quitting from when we had um, Covid. So my take on it is quiet
accessibilizing. So even if you are in an organisation where you're not necessarily supported, you as someone who is involved in learning. If you're creating learning content and if you're a designer or a developer, any small step that you can make to make your learning content accessible really does have a huge impact on people. And it sometimes feels like um. When it can seem a bit overwhelming and maybe you feel that you're not qualified enough to be doing
can lead you. Sometimes I think to feel like giving up. But I think the message is it really does have a huge impact on learners. And if you just see one person who comes to you and says, uh, I was able to access your content because you had captions on there, you know, and it. And you realise actually this really has a significant impact on people. I think. I suppose that that's the. The message for me to take away. I think we were talking earlier about some kind of
specific areas of. Of when, you know, from. Accessibility is really beneficial to. To. To women. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, when you think about it, there is the situational aspect of accessibility where, um, you know, a lot of people just focus. Permanent disabilities, blind, deaf, etc, but people don't think
about the situational side of things. And from a woman's perspective, what if you are a new mum or you've got a couple of kids and you're trying to do something on your phone while you're trying to, you know, look after the children. I have no kids. I don't have kids. So I don't understand from the point
of view. Um, but, um, you know, you're trying to do something on your phone, phone and if it's not easy for you to just, you know, quickly do it on your phone, it could be like, oh, the frustration happens. So, you know, it's. It's kind of helping people in that situation, in that situation where they may not be able to fully use the phone because they've got other things going on around them. There's also the fact is, um, brain fog is a
thing. You know, the brain fog, um, I know it's a part, ah, of the perimenopause, um, and get easily distracted and getting frustrated and making sure that if you are trying to concentrate on something, you have something that is very clear and is not going to overwhelm you. So that's where the accessibility can really help, you know, that sort
of aspect of your life. And we're looking at it from, you know, accessibility helps everybody, you know, from every age, age, um, every background, all of that sorts of things. And it benefits, you know, everybody by incorporating it in. >> Susie Miller: I think there are. There are case scenarios where. Where you can say this, this route. And I think people have. When we've experienced it ourselves. When you're talking about brain fog,
for example, I think again, coming back to the. Is obviously something that I've experienced is obviously. But the, um. I think the. The thing for me is when I'm
doing. Again, coming back to doing the auditing is Sometimes there might not necessarily be a, ah, kind of a web content accessibility guideline that specifically says we should be doing this, but you can just see things like clear navigation, that idea of plain language, that idea of, you know, consistency, that idea of, you know, not suddenly having a, uh, new menu pop up or it
just makes it. You can imagine that like, I kind of think of myself, you know, all of us, us have experienced just being tired or being. >> Gemma Nunn: Yeah. >> Susie Miller: Worked or stressed and when you're looking at, you know, the learning that we're, that we're asking people to do and you see examples of quite complex, you know, um, or maybe something that's not consistent, it just really brings at home how, how important it is that, that this is, you
know, how much of an impact it does make for everybody. Because we're, we're all human and we all, as you say, we have situational access needs, we have temporary access needs and we're all, all very, you know, it's very likely that all of us, at some point in our lives, the older we get, we will develop a permanent, um, disability as well. So it's the, the university. Universality. I think that's the word. >> Gemma Nunn: I think that's the word. >> Susie Miller: Yeah.
>> Gemma Nunn: Universality. Um, and it's obviously we've got the agent population as well. Yeah. So, um, my eyesight is going. >> Susie Miller: Yeah. >> Gemma Nunn: So I still want to be playing video games and reading stuff on the Internet. Internet when I'm 80, you know. So, um, purely selfish. Want to do accessibility so I make sure I can do things in the future. But yeah, it's, you know, it does, it benefits everybody.
>> Susie Miller: I agree. And it comes back for me that probably a good, um, sort of statistic to finish on that. I always talk, if I can with my, with my, um, clients and, you know, anyone I talk to about accessibility is the fact that, um, we, I think a lot of organisations, um, underestimate how many people within their organisations have a
disability or an access need. And I think for me, some really, really useful research came from the Boston Consultancy Group, I think it was last year or maybe a year before, and they said that most organisations estimate between 4% and 7% of their workforce have a disability or an access need. And when they actually independently asked, and this is the reason that this research is really important is because it had such
a wide range. So they asked about 28,000 people, I think over in 16 different countries and the actual percentage that they came up with, and this is people who identified as having a disability or a health condition. And that limited a major life activity. And that's kind of the wording of how we define accessibility. It was actually nearly 20, 25%. I think it was actually 25% of people. And so when you're thinking about, you
know, and that is just people who are. And that, that doesn't include people we were talking earlier about, um, who aren't aware, for example that they have ah, an access need. So a lot of, a lot of people who are neurodivergent maybe haven't got a diagnosis or are not aware or people who are not disclosing that they have uh, um, a disability because of, you know, they don't, they don't feel comfortable or, or you
know, happy to do that. And then adding on top of that you have everybody with situational and temporary access needs. And it's like, well, how can you even be thinking about creating learning content if you don't make it accessible? Because you are. There are so many people that you are potentially excluding from that experience. >> Gemma Nunn: Absolutely. And I mean with the, what you were saying about
the um, undiagnosed. I mean particularly in women, and especially at the moment, there are, there is a lot of women who are being diagnosed quite late on with adhd, myself included. And these are things that I didn't even realise that I needed to have such support structures in place because it's, it's not been diagnosed and I mean I'm 42. >> Susie Miller: Yeah. >> Gemma Nunn: And this would have been really useful information back
when I was in school. But you know, I've got, we've got it now and the support is in place. But imagine there's quite a lot of women who are in the same position because it affects women differently than it does men. >> Susie Miller: Definitely. >> Gemma Nunn: So. Yeah. >> Susie Miller: And I think a similar thing. I m. Didn't find out I was dyslexic. I mean although it was suggested I think once in passing when I was at school, um, until I was, you know, you know, early 50s.
And then I just think, well it uh. That the, it really m. Helped me understand why I'd kind of managed to survive rather than thrive in uh, an educational. And in workplace as well, having to do workplace learning and it just makes. It just clarified. Okay. And now understanding that this, this is just the way that my brain works. It's not, you know, it's not something that is. Yeah, there are challenges, but there are also actually real strengths. And I think the same with, with any
neurodivergent condition with, with ADHD as well. There are definitely challenges but undoubtedly there are strengths. But that's why it's so important that, that this idea of making, uh, learning content accessible as the default is just, uh, it kind of comes. You know, this is such a great example of why that is so important. Important. >> Gemma Nunn: Absolutely. Well, thanks for talking with me. You know, it's been good to catch up
and, uh, talk about accessibility. I think we could probably go on talking about this for hours on end, but. >> Susie Miller: Yeah, definitely. >> Gemma Nunn: Maybe another time. Maybe another time. >> Susie Miller: That would be wonderful. Thanks ever so much. We love you talking to each other. >> Gemma Nunn: Thank you. >> Andrew Jacobs: It's okay to admit we were thinking about blueberry muffins from this episode and you probably too. What it also did was make us realise how it might be
problematic to get transcript for our episodes. This is something we're fixing from now. And a massive thank you to Susie and Gemma for making us aware. Both Susie and Gemma were great and enormous. Thanks to them for talking about this topic and for their time and for being guests on the podcast. I know you want to connect with them afterwards and their details are in the show. Notes. Notes. Along with information about how to connect with us here at uh Women Talking about learning.
We'll be back in a couple of weeks and next time it's the levelling up one. As always, thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.