DR. MARK MUSSER - Hitler Was Not A Christian: The Environmentalist Roots of the Nazis

My name is Will Spencer and you're listening to one of the last episodes. Of the Renaissance of Men podcast. This is an all new interview and the clock is ticking down to when. This show will become the Will Spencer podcast. For a sneak preview of what's to come, I strongly recommend my audio listeners click over to YouTube to check out. My brand new studio as well. I gotta say, I'm pretty stoked. My guest this week is a christian.

Missionary to the former Soviet Union and the author of Nazi Ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the judeo christian worldview in the Holocaust. Please welcome Doctor Mark Musser. You are the renaissance. Before I begin, this monologue will be substantially longer than any episode I've done before, more than 40 minutes and identical on both audio and video. The subject matter is highly charged and yet very important.

I ask you to please listen carefully, to suspend judgment, and to take seriously the instructions that I provide. Later, if they apply to you again, please listen to what I have to say. This is all setting the stage for the interview. With that in mind, let's begin. We today live in the shadow of the Holocaust. It is the singular historical event that defines our modern western world, including global politics, culture, economics, and much more.

The Holocaust is also the root of the postwar consensus, whose chief message about the first half of the 20th century was never again, as in the horrors of the 19 hundreds through the 1940s, could never be repeated. No effort would be spared worldwide to prevent it. And though a great deal happened during those decades, the signature event that could not, must not be repeated was not war, famine or depression, but genocide in the Holocaust.

If you are wondering why America is involved in the Middle east and sends billions of dollars in military and other aid to Israel, the reasoning can be traced back to the Holocaust. If youre wondering why its impossible to notice jewish influence, good or bad, on any part of american and western society, the reasoning can also be traced back to the Holocaust.

If you're wondering why you as a man are not taught to stand up straight and be proud of your masculinity, ethnicity or nation, it's because after being called a racist and a sexist, you'll be called a Nazi. Why does that matter? Because of the Holocaust. That's right. You as a man cannot be proud of your masculinity because in part, masculinity leads to the Holocaust and the Holocaust can never be allowed to happen again. So masculinity cannot be allowed to happen again.

In case you disagree with that, in the massively influential 1963 feminist classic the feminine mystique Betty Friedan used the Holocaust specifically as a metaphor to attack the family. She titled chapter twelve of her book progressive the Comfortable concentration camp. In it, she wrote, the women who adjust as housewives who grow up wanting to be just a housewife are in as much danger as the millions who walk to their own death in the concentration camps.

We see a similar dynamic play out today on the news and in social media. Even Jordan Peterson, the skinny, mild mannered canadian professor, was attacked using this reasoning way back in 2017. The full logic goes like traditional masculinity, including the family and the household, means fascism, fascism means Nazism. Nazism means the Holocaust. And the Holocaust can never be allowed to happen again. So traditional masculinity cannot be allowed to happen again.

It's more complicated than this in many ways, of course, but often to the liberal media, it is that simple. So perhaps in this you can see that to some extent, the Holocaust also defines our political dialogue. To be on the political left is by definition, to accept that the Holocaust happened exactly as the mainstream narrative, including Hollywood said it did, including the motivations of the Nazis.

And more and increasingly, to be on the political right means either questioning the Holocaust narrative or doubting that the Holocaust happened at all. Thus, even our politics uses the perspective on this event as a shibboleth to determine which side youre on. If youre on the left, you must accept it as is. If youre at many points on the right, you must doubt it. I think this is insane, but it is what it is. Now, as youve heard me say many times, I grew up jewish.

Both of my grandfathers were american jewish men who served during World War Two. My grandfather David, on my moms side was us army, airborne behind enemy lines in Germany. My grandfather Martin on my dads side was a us army engineer stateside. My aunt, one of my mothers sisters, married my uncle, whose parents escaped Germany during World War Two.

And though my uncle has now passed away, I heard him say once that he lost extended family members in the Holocaust, which is one of many reasons why he was an avowed atheist. And in the jewish community, my uncle was far from alone. So this historical event loomed large in my upbringing and family, too. Thus, if I understand the rules of the woke game, my jewish upbringing gives me the right to both investigate and talk about this.

Now, I regard those rules as a bogus form of ethnic gnosticism, to borrow vodibakums, excellent phrase. But nonetheless, for those who want to play by them, there it is. And if you want me to prove my jewish bona fides. You can listen to an audio recording of 13 year old me singing the ten Commandments in Hebrew at my bar mitzvah. Or we can do things the easy way, and you can take my word for it.

So with that in mind, there are three essential questions related to the Holocaust that I'd like to now address. First, what happened? Second, why did it happen? Third, what are we supposed to do about it? Of course, I'm also aware that there's a preliminary fourth question lurking around these three, and that question is, did it happen at all? Now, I've been on the Internet a long time. I got my 1st 2400 baud modem when I was 13 years old.

For those who dont know what a 2400 baud modem is, it was a stone age version of connecting to the Internet via the phone lines. As in no one else could use the household phone while you were on the Internet. And long before cell phones, everyone in the home, mom, dad and kids shared one line. It was a simpler time. A 2400 Baud modem transmitted data at 2400 bits per second for reference how far weve come since then.

My gigabit Ethernet connection right now transmits 1 billion bits per second, and it does so through the air for ten years. I also navigated through what I called the deep new age. This is the world beneath crystals, astrology, yoga, ayahuasca and all that. Those are the what the deep new age asks why so?

Ive investigated every conspiracy from Anunnaki to Tartaria Mkultra to Qanon, Zeta reticuli, reptilians 440 versus 432 hz music, the USS Liberty, the Council on Foreign Relations, holonomic consciousness, the alien bases on the far side of the hollow moon, vertigo, politics, videos, and much more. Naturally, I have also come across the question of Holocaust revisionism and denial, as I know many of my listeners today have as well.

In fact, due to widespread anger at and hatred of the Jews that is now allowed to propagate across Elon Twitter, it has become fashionable in certain sectors of the right today to challenge the historicity of the Holocaust. I saw at least one meme about it just today while I was writing this. This questioning is not new.

Holocaust denial and revisionism have been around in various forms since the 1950s, and you can't use the Internet as long as I have and navigate through the worlds that I have without encountering it. Now, as far as I can tell, this is another way the holocaust is unique. It is one of only three events that I can think of where people openly challenge whether it happened or not. Another one is the moon landing, and the third is the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Naturally, the moon landing is not quite like the other two in terms of its moral significance. But those are the only three events that I can think of where people are allowed, more or less, to doubt whether or not they happened. Okay, now this is the part that I need many, if not all, of you to listen to very closely. This podcast interview will not make sense to you and will not have the impact it needs to unless you hear what I'm about to say.

For as long as I've been using the Internet, the following has been my position. It is completely fair to doubt whether any of these events have happened in the ways that we're told. I have long felt that personally, it's okay, and perhaps even encouraged to doubt any mainstream narrative. But the second, I want to take a position on what did happen. I am obligated to try and prove myself wrong. That completes the process of inquiry, and I believe, is what true intellectual honesty looks like.

To doubt myself as much as I doubt others, if not more. Because if others are proficient at lying to us, we are also quite proficient at lying to ourselves. So if I want to say, for example, that the moon landing did not happen, that is, making a claim that can be tested. I can seek incontrovertible evidence that it did. And I believe that before I make a positive historical claim, I must in good faith search out contradictory evidence. If it exists.

The same is true with Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. In fact, that's what the book the case for Christ, Lee Strobel, is about. One man, an atheist, sought to prove that Christ didnt exist by questioning the best experts he could find. He subjected his thesis to scrutiny, and lo and behold, Stroebel got his mind changed by discovering the truth. This reasoning must also apply to the Holocaust.

So if you want to claim that the Holocaust did not happen, never existed, was a lie fabricated by the winners of world War Two to defame the memory of the losers, that is a historical claim that can be tested. And so I have compiled a list full of evidence to test Holocaust denialism against. If you are a listener who doubts the existence of the Holocaust, it is vital that you engage with that evidence before listening to this episode.

So I've compiled on my substack free for everyone, a collection of resources, including web links, books, Twitter accounts, and videos that rely on historical documents from the Nazis to prove what happened. It turns out that Hitler and the National Socialists are the most heavily documented human movement in history. In meticulous german style, they wrote down everything and provided mountains of evidence about themselves.

Whole libraries of books have been written about them, using their own words and records. Naturally, I dont expect you to review every single resource unless you want to, and then by all means go ahead and master the material. We need more information, soldiers like you. But if you only have time for one, then this is what I need you to do. At the top of that article ive linked a video discussion on rumble between two men, Brandon Martinez and David Cole.

Brandon Martinez is a self described ethno nationalist. He says on the video that hes quote on team white and repeatedly emphasizes how much he questions jewish power. Apparently hes even been banned from Twitter and I have no idea why, but I can probably imagine David Cole is the maker of one of the most infamous Holocaust revision videos of all time, which questioned the existence of the Auschwitz gas chambers back in the early 1990s.

So he's been at the game longer than many of us have been alive. In their two hour discussion, Brandon and David confirm that's right, confirm the historical reality of the Holocaust, debunking common denialist challenges, including about swimming pools, wooden doors, reconstructed camps, math equations, crematoriums, explosive pesticides, plus the claims of Fred Leuchter, David Irving, and more.

In those 2 hours, they respond in clear speech to every Holocaust denial meme I've ever heard and more, listing men I've never heard of who made anti Holocaust documentaries that I don't know and who then recanted. Martinez and Cole also go over the devastating census evidence that the revisionists, deniers, and the mainstream all agree on, and that should make all the case you needed to that the Holocaust happened beyond a reasonable doubt.

Brandon then spends the last hour after Cole signs off, responding to other questioners and trolls in the live chat, establishing his ethnonationalist credentials. So if you think he's Mossad or CIA, whatever, you can take it up with him. I am providing this video for information purposes only. I am not commending to you either of their work, but whatever differences in worldview or theology I may have with Martinez or Cole, I respect their unwavering commitment to the truth.

That video is 3 hours long. So if you are at all tempted to doubt the existence of the Holocaust, the systematic german execution of Jews and others, stop listening to this podcast now and go listen to Martinez and Cole first. Nothing I or my guest have to say will make sense unless you do. Ive put the video direct on my substack in case it disappears from rumble. All credit to Brandon Martinez.

As I've mentioned, on the same page with the video you can find a list of several books I've found that also reinforce the historicity of the Holocaust using contemporaneous documents for the record, the first book about the Holocaust, the Final Solution, was written and published in 1953 by Gerald Reitlinger. It is more than 600 pages long. The definitive history of the National Socialists and Hitler is called the rise and fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer, and it was published in 1961.

That book is 1300 pages long. I also want to mention the book the Hiding Place by Corrie Ten boom. This firsthand account was written by a christian woman who evangelized Jews in the Ravensbruck camp. The book has 20,000 reviews on Amazon with a five star rating. Its apparently legendary in evangelical christian circles now jewish culture is usually good at sharing firsthand Holocaust accounts, but id never heard of the hiding place. I asked my dad and neither had he.

I found that very provocative, so I look forward to reading it. On the list youll also find the pink swastika, an account of the heavy influence of homosexuality on the nazi party and hitlers furies about german women who participated in mass murder.

Ive included several books about the influence of the occult on national socialism, including hitlers monsters, a supernatural history of the Third Reich and Unholy Alliance, a history of nazi involvement with the occult, which features a foreword by none other than the famous author Norman Mailer.

And just for good measure, on the list youll also find into that darkness a book that tells the story of Fritz Stengel, who was the unrepentant commandant of the death camp Treblinka the good Old Days, an ironically titled collection of personal documents, including photographs, diaries, letters and confidential reports created by participants and observers of the Holocaust and even warrant for genocide, a 300 page book about the origins of the protocols of the elders of Zion.

These are just a few of the titles I've listed. Again, if you want to make historical claims based on more than a couple YouTube videos and memes, it pays to do your research. I've included other videos on the page that speak to the character of Hitler and the Nazis, web links to crucial historical documents featured on a very thorough blog called Holocaust Controversies, an excellent Twitter account to follow. Hitler hated Christ, who says his DM's are open.

If you have questions, and much more, you are now charged to undertake this journey of discovery and perhaps unlearning on your own. If you refuse to engage with the hard evidence because you are not willing to challenge your biases, your understanding of history, or your ideology, that's on you. But for what it's worth, if you listen to this podcast, I think you're more than capable of finding out the truth. We'll be here when you get back. For the rest of us, I say all this for two reasons.

First, because again, what my guests and I talk about this week won't make sense unless we can all agree on some historical fundamentals. First, I'm making sure we're all on the same page before I approach the subject matter. But second, and most importantly, I desperately want my civilization to no longer live in the shadow of the Holocaust. There is one and only one event in all of history we should be living in view of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But that doesn't cast a shadow, rather a light. And for whatever reason, our civilization today cannot or will not see that light, in part because we're still standing in the Holocaust shadow. It actually requires quite a bit of force to hold us there. And my hope is that this episode will help change that, moving us all forward into a future defined by the light of the empty tomb in 33 ADHD rather than the darkness of Germany in the 1940s.

To me, that is what it means to hold a true biblical worldview and would represent genuine civilizational progress at this moment in history. But I know it won't happen without a fight. Okay, let's return to the original three questions about the Holocaust. What happened? Why did it happen, and what are we supposed to do about it? Because now that I've made the right wing angry, it's time to make the left wing angry, too.

Culture has provided answers to those three questions that, at least from my upbringing, sound a little bit like this. What happened was a once in history, one of a kind sui generis event, where an educated and wealthy european nation, Germany, systematically genocided the Jews and others using ruthless technological precision. It happened due to the Germans being racists, hating the Jews for their financial successes and influence, weakening the once proud german race.

The Holocaust was also the outcome of centuries of unchecked christian pogroms against the Jews, culminating in a sort of megapogram that only a christian nation was capable of due to their desire for revenge against the Jews for the crucifixion of Christ. And what we need to do about it is do away with Christianity, masculinity, and nationalism. Just for a start and then let the Jews basically do whatever they want, because criticism is no different from mass murder.

I think that sums it up, right. I grew up hearing some version of this narrative, especially that Germany and Hitler were somehow acquainted with Christianity. And I know for a fact that that linkage, though never stated, is what keeps many Jews from converting to Christianity. If you read the book betrayed by Stan Telchin, who became a christian evangelist after his conversion from Judaism, youll see that same logic reflected in his thought process as well.

I knew as a kid that I could be anything I wanted, just not christian. Why? Because Christianity was somehow responsible for the Holocaust. That was and is the common left wing belief within Jews as well, even today. But something funny has been happening lately. This belief has also been adopted by the right wing, but as a good thing. Now I'm grateful for Elon, Twitter and the free speech that he allows. And since he took over, jew hatred has gone viral almost up to the mainstream.

And many on the extreme right have also adopted this narrative that Hitler was a Christian. Except even more so because they say, in fact, he was the christian prince. An example of christian nationalism. It's baffling, especially because if true, that claim legitimizes everything the Jews have thought about christians going back for 80 years.

If Hitler really was a christian and really was the christian prince, and as the evidence shows, the Holocaust really did happen, then wouldn't Jews be absolutely correct in doing everything they have done since the 1940s? Does any group not have the right to defend itself against mass slaughter? If Jews dont fight with weapons, are they allowed to fight within institutions which are far more powerful instead?

I would say so, which is why the claim that Hitler was the christian prince is literally self defeating for christian men, and can only be sustained in an environment where the Holocaust didnt happen.

But if the evidence from revisionists, ethnonationalists, and other researchers on your team proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the Holocaust did happen, which it absolutely does, if you're brave and intelligent enough to look at it, then only the claim of Hitler, the National Socialists, and Germany being christian remains for us to examine in order to demolish this poisonous idea forever. So guess what? Hitler wasn't a Christian.

Neither were the National Socialists, and neither was Germany in the first half of the 20th century. In fact, far from it. Which brings me to my guest this week. His name is Doctor Mark Musser, and he's a husband, father, missionary to the former Soviet Union, where in fact, he is today. And the author of one of the most mind changing books I've read over the past year nazi ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the judeo christian worldview, and the Holocaust.

Christian researcher and lecturer Carl Tycrib, author of Game of Gods, recommended this book to me towards the end of 2023 and for some unknown reason I felt compelled to read it, which I did this past spring. Nazi ecology is a 500 page scholarly work. It is dense, written in an academic, no nonsense style with more than 1600 citations and a 15 page bibliography. It took Doctor Musser ten years to research and write and frankly its more like a textbook than anything ive read in a long time.

Its more suited for careful study than casual reading. And doctor Mussers book is about one what did Hitler and the National Socialists really believe?

Because again, the general public has been told, often in not so many words, that Hitler and the National Socialists were associated somehow with Christianity, that they hated the Jews due to racism, that the Holocaust was a work of mechanized, industrialized precision, and that National Socialist Germany was the result of a lethal combination of masculinity, nationalism, and unbridled industrial capitalism fused with an ideology based on ethnic superiority.

That is more or less the story all of us have heard. And as it turns out, almost none of it is true. And the bits of that story that are true did not go down at all in the ways that we've been told. That is what Doctor Muster's book is about, not merely accepting what history and mass media has said about what the National Socialists believed. Instead, he dug into the works of their most influential philosophers, scientists, artists, and their own writings and speeches.

Doctor Musser charted the intellectual course of Germany from the 17 hundreds right up until the 1940s, and demonstrated how it wasn't Christianity that drove the national socialist worldview. Rather, it was the slow decline and erosion of Christianity that allowed it. The National Socialists actually embodied beliefs that are hard for us to understand today, using modern left right categories. That's why Doctor Muster's book was so mind changing for me.

The environmental, philosophical, and theological leanings of the minds behind national socialism were clearly on the left, explicitly embracing all is one, all is God, pantheism and monism flavored with occultism, with an emphasis on the value of feelings and a pure hatred for the creation order laid out in the Bible, specifically the dominion mandate in Genesis one.

And God blessed them, and God said to them, be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on the earth, the philosophers who informed the National Socialist worldview hated that perspective on nature in their own words for decades, if not centuries.

And that is the real reason they hated the Jews, because, as they believed, the Hebrew Bibles perspective on the dominion of nature in Genesis did not align with their naturalistic, pagan perspectives that instead held human beings as just one link in a grand ecological chain. This is all documented in detail in doctor Mussers book. I invite you to read their words for yourself.

Thats the Judeo half of the Judeo Christian and doctor Musters subtitle the National Socialists and their progenitors hated the Jews long before the degeneracy of Weimar, as documented in their own words by the composer Wagner, the author Goethe, the philosophers Nietzsche, Hegel, Kant, Heidegger, and Schopenhauer. Also Dietrich Eckert, to whom Adolf Hitler dedicated Mein Kampf, Walther Daer, Guido von List, Ernst Haeckel, the Wandervogels, the Artemannens, and many more.

Direct quotes from all these men and countless others dating well into the 18 hundreds seething with hatred for the Jews over the dominion. Mandate specifically can be found on almost every page of Doctor Musser's book. For this reason, the National Socialists also hated Christianity because they regarded it as an internationalized version of Judaism and a religion which was alien to the german people, the so called Volk.

And anyone who spent any time on Twitter today and interacted with a few big anti christian accounts has heard those men say the exact same same thing, because that is what the National Socialists believed, that Christianity was merely internationalized Judaism. Anything else the National Socialists may have said in public and in speeches was political posturing, especially because Hitler's coalition was not as stable as it seemed.

On the book list, I've included a link to Hitler's compromises, coercion, and consensus in Nazi Germany by Nathan Stolfez a 430 page book and Hitler's Cross how the Cross was used to promote the nazi agenda by Erwin Lutzer a 250 page book because much like America today, Germany had its own form of empty cultural Christianity that still demanded lip service be paid to it.

Instead, it was faithful, bible believing christians who put up the most forceful resistance out of the entire german population, which doctor muster and I talk about in this podcast as well. Seen this way, the Holocaust was definitely not something that happened one day for no reason at all, except it didn't originate in the 1930s or even the 1920s or 1910s.

It was a philosophical, ecological, theological snowball that began gathering speed in the 17 hundreds, and once Germany became increasingly unmoored from its biblical foundations, the Holocaust became a near inevitability once the opportunity presented itself, which happened in the 20th century. This is what Doctor Musser has documented in black and white, 500 pages with a 15 page bibliography and scripture verses throughout. Its all there for you to read yourself.

As they say, the truth fears no investigation. So if you think youve already got the truth about the National Socialists, youd better get investigating and put your worldview to the test.

And I might add, if youre still unconvinced that the National Socialists werent christian after hearing this interview and reading doctor Musters book, I recently finished another book called Black sun by Nicholas Goodrich Clark that documents neo nazi movements going back to the 1950s, right up until 2001, when Black sun was written. This is another dense scholarly work published by NYU Press, totaling 300 pages.

It too has hundreds of citations, including to original works in German, which I guess the author knew how to read. In Gudrick Clarks book, I challenge you to examine the fruits of neo Nazism in the works and words of men like Lincoln Rockwell, William Pierce, Colin Jordan, Miguel Serrano, William Landig, Varg Vikernes, David Myatt, Joss Turner, and even the man who wrote the 14 words himself, David Lane.

Somehow all of these men, some of whom worshipped Hitler as a literal incarnation of a God, missed his very obvious christian faith. Or maybe it wasn't there to begin with. And by the way, Adolf Hitler did not consider himself the savior of the white race. One, he'd only look up his treatment and opinion of the Slavs to see the truth of that. The National Socialists regarded the Slavs as subhuman, and that is why they invaded eastward, to take slavic lands for lebensraum, or breathing room.

So for you Hitler fans who are passport bros looking at eastern Europe for a bride, im sorry to tell you, but youre going to have to pick a side. The idea that Hitler cared about a pan aryan white race was invented by a greek woman two decades after hitlers death. Her name was Maximiani Giulia Portas, but she's better known by her hindu name, Savitri Devi. Look it up. So now we've covered a lot of ground who Hitler and the National Socialists were and weren't.

The right wing is probably mad because I challenged their heroic idol and have offered evidence that their historical beliefs are false. But this will also make the left wing mad because Hitler is also their idol. Only to them, he's not a christian hero, rather a quasi christian villain. But as I've said, Hitler and the National Socialists weren't christian at all. The Holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity.

Instead, the Holocaust is what happens when a wealthy, educated, militarily powerful nation abandons Christianity, except a bare bit of lip service to orthodoxy and a shallow husk of orthopraxy. So remember my three questions, what happened, why, and what are we supposed to do about it? Having read Doctor Musser's book, the following appears to be a far more accurate narrative.

A radical leftist pagan ideology seized power and used right wing, technological and nationalistic tools to cleanse their precious natural environment of a polluting infestation. The Jews. It wasnt done with mechanical precision, rather haphazardly, brutally, and savagely, and at the cost of their own war effort. Then they tried to erase the evidence of their crimes, particularly the action Reinhardt camps.

And in the end, the National Socialists were what they said they were, socialists and hyper nationalists, ideologically unable to use the tools of capitalism and trade agreements with a world they considered hostile due to jewish influence. Hitler and the National Socialists thus isolated themselves, overreached and crumbled, because they were pagan ideologues, not master tacticians or strategists.

So while the Holocaust did happen, what actually happened is not what weve been told, nor why the truth is very different and relevant to us today. Which is why leftist scholars for decades have been trying to scrub their connections to the nazi regime. A sanitation job which is much harder than it seems. Especially because the word ecology was coined in 1866 by a german naturalist named Ernst Haeckel, who wrote a letter of congratulations to Charles Darwin on Darwins 70th birthday.

He said Darwin had, quote, shown man his place in nature and therefore was overthrowing the anthropocentric fable, end quote. Thats right. The german man who invented the very word ecology and whose 1899 book the Riddle of the Universe outsold the Bible internationally at the time, celebrated Darwins dethroning of man as the center of creation. If that perspective sounds familiar today in our age of climate change driven propaganda, it should, because its the same perspective.

So, as ive said, the left is also invited to read Doctor Mussers book. I commend to them especially the section about Hannah Arendt and Martin Heidegger. Those star crossed lovers, a jew and a former card carrying Nazi respectively, go a long way towards explaining why we think about Germany the way we do, rather than the truth. You might be wondering why this matters, why all the effort will whats going on?

As I said earlier, I want our civilization to move beyond the shadow of the Holocaust into whatever next phase awaits us living in the light of Christ. But the only way we can do that is shining light into the shadow, the light of truth. We as a civilization, cannot move beyond the Holocaust unless we understand what happened and why.

We have been fed lies from both the extreme left and the extreme right, which fracture Hitler and the national Socialists true beliefs into two parts which we need to reassemble to see the truth. So here is that truth again. The national socialists used right wing tools of nationalism, technology, and corrupted masculinity to enact a left wing agenda of pagan environmentalism, with humanity as supporting characters in a religion of nature worship. Now, let me say that again more slowly.

The National Socialists used right wing tools to enact a left wing agenda. They were pagan environmentalists who believed that humanity was just a part of nature, rather than the heads and stewards of it. As they say, however, the devil is in the details, because in the realm of humanity, the Germans believed themselves the superior race due to their connection to their superior land, a spiritual doctrine they called blood and soil.

Think of it this if humans were just part of nature, the best nature would make for the best humans. And that's what the Germans believed that they had. And that is what actually fueled the social darwinist, genocidal ambitions of the so called master race idolatry. Itll get you every time theres a book about it to bring us up to date. The extreme left wing has adopted the Nazis pagan environmentalism, and the extreme right wing has adopted the Nazis hypernationalism and twisted masculinity.

The beliefs of National Socialist Germany have been shattered into two parts that have taken on destructive identities of their own. But the synthesis of those beliefs was only made possible in the first place by the removal of the gospel, the spiritual heart of pre national socialist Germany. Because when you pull Christ out of a wealthy, educated industrial culture, you get chaos.

Which is why I believe the historical evidence in Doctor Musser's book shows conclusively we are at a similar risk in America today from both left wing environmental fascism and right wing racial fascism. Both are deeply wicked, and both are pointing us towards different holocausts. The extreme left wants to eradicate the pollution of human life on earth. Humans are a, quote, cancer on the planet. As agent Smith in the matrix said, the left really believes that.

And they got the idea direct from National Socialist Germany. We probably have the project paperclip scientists to thank for that and the nazi leadership that established the UN. Meanwhile, the extreme right wing increasingly wants to eradicate the Jews from the planet.

That drumbeat is growing through major influencers like Candace Owens, Kanye west, the Tate brothers, and even Dan Bilzerian, along with the perennial idea that if we just murder the Jews, it will usher in a new era of peace and prosperity. Naturally, it doesnt end with the Jews either. Do you see? Both the left and the right are projecting their millenarian visions of utopia, claiming slaughter as the way to get there. In other words, if we just kill the right people, then well have peace now.

Im not surprised the secular world of left or right would think such things, but that men who call themselves christians would propose the shedding of blood as the way to global redemption or advocating for a culture of death as surely as an abortionist. While yes, military conquest, slaughter, and death are featured all throughout the Old Testament, they find no support in the new.

So if a man wants to live in a shadow, let him live in the long shadow cast by the cross, the paradox of the crucified Lord of glory. The cross is the one true crossroads of all history that has a lesson for the extreme left, the extreme right, and all points in between. And as with National Socialist Germany in the 1930s and the United States a century later, the gospel is the only way a wealthy, educated, militarily powerful nation blessed with God's word can and should know better.

In fact, I believe one can even make the case that the current state of Germany is God's judgment for their faithlessness. The german intelligentsia, inheritors of Luther and melanchthon, abandoned Christianity for nature worship in the 18 hundreds. This allowed for the rise of the abomination of national socialism, which was then put down. If you find this hard to believe, consider this quote from George Orwell in his book on the way.

For 200 years, we had sawed and sawed and sawed at the branch we were sitting on. And in the end, much more suddenly than anyone had foreseen. Our efforts were rewarded, and down we came. But unfortunately, there had been a little mistake. The thing at the bottom was not a bed of roses after all. It was a cesspool of barbed wire. It appears that the amputation of the soul isnt just a simple surgical job, like having your appendix out. The wound has a tendency to go septic.

When do you think he wrote these words? 1965. Maybe even the 1970s. Orwell wrote them in 1940, less than a year after Germany had invaded Poland, starting World War two. Orwell hadnt yet seen Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Berlin, or Treblinka, and yet it was already obvious to him what had happened in the west. We can watch the amputation of Germanys soul and the resulting sepsis.

If we have the courage to look at doctor mussers evidence and confront the reality of the Holocaust and its causes, we need the light of the empty tomb to shine on the darkness of national Socialist Germany. And there we will see Christianitys true enemy, the worship of the creation rather than the creator. Then and only then, do I believe we all have a chance to move past this historic crime and tragedy.

The truth will reveal the wickedness of left and right that I pray the Holy Spirit will guide believers to walk safely between. Doctor Muster's evidence is there if you want to see it. He is a friendly, accommodating and faithful man possessing a masters in divinity and doctorate in biblical Greek. Right now he is doing missionary work in a former soviet state at personal risk to himself and his family.

He gave a decade to finding out the truth in nazi ecology, which was also endorsed by Doctor Cal Beisner of the Cornwall alliance, who called it a, quote, tour de force. And then the book reached me. If you're inclined to believe Doctor Musser is just an outlier as well, I've included on the substack five books that support his conclusions. First, National Socialism and the religion of nature by Robert Poy.

That's a rare used book that goes for more than $200 on Amazon, so you better start saving up. Second, leftism from Dessad and Marx to Hitler and Marcuse by Erich von Kunout Ledden. This is a survey of leftism by a Christian, polymath and world traveler who reads 20 languages and speaks eight of them. It's also rare and out of print, with used copies selling for more than $500, but the mises institute has digitized it and made it free to the world in both PDF and kindle on their website.

I've included that link as well. Third, how green were the Nazis? Nature, environment, and nation in the Third Reich by Franz Josef Bruegemeier surveys the overlap of environmentalist and nationalist ideologies in National Socialist Germany.

Fourth, the Green and the Brown, a history of conservation in Nazi Germany by Frank Utaker is, quote, a story of ideological convergence, of tactical alliances, of careerism, of implication in crimes against humanity, and of deceit and denial after 1945, end quote. Fifth and finally, black the Holocaust as history and warning by Timothy Snyder, which was a finalist for the UK's 2015 Samuel Johnson Prize for the best nonfiction writing in the english language.

I meant what I said about the Nazis providing mountains of evidence of their thoughts, words, and actions. I hereby charge every man and woman who considers themselves an intellectual to read doctor Muster's book and hopefully others I've listed and decide about National Socialist Germany for yourselves. In other words, be part of the reading class, not the meme class. Then maybe, just maybe, we can change things in our lifetime. Or, God willing, our children's.

On a personal note, I am no longer jewish because I, as a man raised in that faith and culture, refuse to live in the shadow of the Holocaust. I refuse to be a victim of historical events that didn't happen to me. I still refuse. I will always refuse. And so I stood up. I challenged my christian brothers and sisters to do the same, to stand in the light, not cower in shadow, bearing aloft the word of God into a desperately fallen world. In the name of the way, the truth, and the life.

Jesus Christ. Sharp minds may observe that. There's one final question I haven't addressed. What are we supposed to do about the reality of the Holocaust? In this essay ive already provided an answer to my christian brothers and sisters and to secular listeners as well. Id like to now offer my answer to the Jews. The following passage was written by doctor Viktor Frankl in his book Mans Search for meaning.

Frankl was a jewish austrian psychologist who spent three years in four german concentration camps, including Auschwitz. I first read these words in 2017, long before I became a Christian. May they ring in the ears of those who have used never again as a battle cry against those they have wrongfully deemed their persecutors.

During the psychological phase of liberation from Auschwitz, one observed that peoples with natures of a more primitive kind could not escape the influences of the brutality which had surrounded them in camp life. Now, being free, they thought they could use their freedom licentiously and ruthlessly. The only thing that had changed for them was that they were now the oppressors instead of the oppressed. They became instigators, not objects of willful force and injustice.

They justified their behavior by their own terrible experiences. This was often revealed in apparently insignificant events. A friend was walking across a field with me towards the camp when suddenly we came to a field of green crops. Automatically I avoided it, but he drew his arm through mine and dragged me through it. I stammered something about not treading down the young crops. He became annoyed, gave me an angry look and shouted, you don't say. And hasn't enough been taken from us?

My wife and child have been gassed, not to mention everything else. And you would forbid me to tread on a few stalks of oats. Only slowly could these men, be guided back to the commonplace truth that no one has the right to do wrong, not even if wrong has been done to them. We had to strive to lead them back to this truth, or the consequences would have been much worse than the loss of a few thousand stalks of oats. End quote.

And this, my christian brothers and sisters, is why the Jews need the gospel as well. And apparently today, so do many angry young men calling themselves christians. But maybe rather than hearing those ideas in the words of a jewish psychologist, they'd rightfully prefer the words of Jesus Christ, who said the following in the Gospel of Luke, chapter six. But I say to you who heard, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.

To the one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also. And from one who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods, do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you?

For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. And your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the most high, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your father is merciful. Judge not, and you will not be judged. Condemn not, and you will not be condemned.

Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. End quote. Argue with these words all you want, but in them I can find no justification for genocide. So I close with a word of pleading to those rageful young christian men and the adults who are around them, listening.

Please abandon Hitlerism, christian or otherwise, and do it now. Hitler wasn't the crucified savior of the white race. God judged Germany for its faithlessness and has continued to yes, we were lied to about the Holocaust, but not about the means or the opportunity. Rather the motive, which was to extinguish the light of God's created order and worship. The divinity of nature instead of God the Father. The true story was then covered up to enable the same ends on a global scale.

Now, if that doesn't sound like socialism, I don't know what does. Besides, genocides have been committed in and by the United States, China, Japan, Russia, Australia, Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia, Cambodia, Ukraine, Yugoslavia, and the tribes of South America, North America, and Africa. That's a short list. Many of these were in the 20th century alone. There's no reason why Germany should be any different from the worldwide historical norm just because of their skin color.

Now, your anger at the state of the west and its future is legitimate. I empathize, however, that anger is being fashioned into a political weapon, no different from how young women's anger was fashioned into the weapon of feminism. In other words, you are being used if you don't believe me. Earlier I recommended the book Black sun by Nicholas Goodrich Clarke about neo nazi movements in the 20th century. The first 50 pages are free on Amazon. You can read them in a web browser or on your phone.

In them you will see reflected in the mid 20th century the exact same anxieties about immigration, the family, and the economy that you are feeling today, promoted by shrewd men to manipulate angry men into long forgotten social movements. Again, this dates back to the 1950s in the United States, England, and Europe. It's not a new game. These movements built nothing. They only destroyed, including the lives of the men and women who participated. Go and read it for yourself.

The enemies of Christ don't care how they take his people down, whether by the world, the flesh, or the devil. Hebrews twelve warns us, strive for peace with everyone and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God, that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled. End quote. Brothers, I urge you to rip that root out.

And pastors, it is your job to help them, not let them plant roots within you instead.

Because, as the apostle wrote to the church in Galatia, now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like, of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, but the fruit of the spirit is love,

joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such, there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the spirit, let us also walk in the spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Mercy, long suffering, kindness, gentleness, loving your enemies and blessing. Those who curse you aren't cool or based, but they are christian.

God's thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are not our ways, no matter what time it is. And if pastors aren't tempering young men's sinful flesh with saving and regenerating faith, the peace of God that passes understanding, then they are failing in their calling. Instead, they're trying to be men's friends. They're cool buddies rather than their spiritual fathers. But last I checked, we don't have a crisis of friendship hunger. We have a generational crisis of father hunger, a father famine.

Actually, orphan sons are asking for bread and fish, and instead they're handed serpents and stones. This is not leadership. It's a mistake. I'll conclude with this. I can hear many men asking, but will, what about jewish influence? I grant the point that jews do occupy an outsized number of positions of power and influence relative to their population size. Obviously. But here's one thing. No one ever says that they're incompetent, because it's not true.

Jews may not be hyper moral from biblical foundations, and in many cases, yes, their morality is explicitly anti biblical, but they are hyper competent. In fact, Jews, like indian, chinese, and korean immigrants, have family driven cultures of elite level competency. Meanwhile, Anglo Protestants in America have developed a tragic anti intellectual tradition. In 1945, how many positions of elite power were held by faithful Anglo Protestants? Compare that with today. It's been just 80 years.

What happened? Protestantism gave up. Why? And how that happened is a much longer conversation. But if you ask me, I think it relates to the forbidden fruit of sexual liberation. Meanwhile, it is my sincere hope that once my fellow christian men are done noticing jewish influence, they'll also also notice the low expectations placed on them by their fathers and the low expectations they place on their own sons and daughters, and perhaps even themselves.

When I was growing up, I didn't go camping, hunt, or do anything outdoors. My dad worked on his career and I on schoolwork. As a result, I was in honors trigonometry. As a high school freshman, I received an 800 on my verbal SAT score and got into Stanford University, praise God, which my dad was able to fund for me without taking on student debt, a kingly gift I honor him for regularly.

While christian families are enjoying the great blessing of hospitality on weekends, children of immigrant families are taking a second or third language, mastering chess or playing an instrument. While white american college students are partying and fornicating to rap music in universities or sent overseas on mission trips, immigrant kids are in the lab. Children who perform at elite levels pay high costs in terms of time socializing. It's expensive for parents and kids too. It was for me.

But christian parents are aspirational parents thinking about future generations. If you want your sons to lead an advanced technological society, you have to train their minds. That is just as hard as training the body and just as painful, especially to succeed in hyper competitive white collar professions.

So I encourage my christian brothers and sisters to think about how they can start combining elite level biblical morality with elite level professional competency, initiating a multigenerational project to win their country and culture back via the meritocracy they claim to value, all to the glory of God our father and the Lord Jesus Christ. If you enjoy this podcast, thank you. Please like this episode, share it, and subscribe.

If this is your first time here, you've picked an auspicious occasion. Welcome. I release new episodes about the christian counterculture, masculinity, and the family every week. And please welcome this week's guests on the podcast, a husband father, missionary to the former Soviet Union, and the author of Nazi Ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the Judeo christian worldview and the Holocaust, Doctor Mark Musser. Doctor Musser, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So earlier this year I checked out your book, Nazi Ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the Judeo christian worldview and the Holocaust. And as you can see, I flipped through it. I did quite a lot of reading and note taking. This was a real eye opening book for me, probably one of the most formative I've read in the past number of years and to help understand who the Nazis were and what they were really about.

So I really appreciate, I can't even imagine the amount of effort that went into producing something like this. So thank you so much for writing this book. Well, it took a number of years to get that thing finally solidified, so it's, you're looking at ten years worth of research. Oh, wow. And, yeah, and then to write the book, you know, I don't have like a whole bunch of editors to help me and you know, all. And then no one's going to want to publish that book because we, I finally did.

But in the sense of it's going to be very hard for a publisher to want to publish it, even though they recognize the, if someone's honest, you know, they're going to recognize how critical and important it is. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a difficult, a difficult topic because there's so much propaganda on. What are the Nazis? You know, a lot of people know about communism and this and that and the other, but what are the doctrines of national Socialism? There's nothing.

People know hardly anything about what their worldview was. All they know is that, oh, they were white racists and that's it. I, and it's a very superficial view of national socialism. And I call it national socialism, okay, because that's what it was. It was a combination of nationalism and socialism working together. It's a different kind of socialism.

And it's also a very, therefore, because of its socialistic character, it's a very complex movement and probably one of the most complex movements that we have seen in a long, long time. And for people to simplify the nazi movement, national socialism is actually very, it exemplifies a very foolish, very unhistorical understanding of how it was that something like that movement took over supposedly the most educated country of Europe at that time.

And if you just sit there, hitler's a madman, he takes over the country and he is super racist. Well, how do you explain, why was it that he was so popular? And how was it that he was able to do these things? It wasn't just himself. I mean, you have to have the whole, all kinds of other people along with him to bring that about. And also the academics played a role, a big role in helping him come to power and even help them afterwards. And the repentance after the war was not all that great.

They just quit talking about it. So going back to the beginning, what inspired you to write this book? You said it was a decade long journey. And I was wondering, as I'm reading this book, like, there's a 15 page bibliography. I mean, I can't even, it's like 1602 thousand footnotes, 1700 footnotes. I mean, I was reading through this. Just the magnitude of it impressed me. It makes sense that it would take a decade. So what was it way back when that inspired you to write it?

And what was it that you're like? I have to stick with it because ten years is a long journey. Well, first of all, if you're going to write a book like that it better be good, okay? Because people will. They're going to say, that's not academic, all this kind of stuff. So I've made it a very academic book. It's a very difficult read, especially the first.

The first part of it is very difficult because it deals with the philosophies that underlie national socialism, but also the modern green movement. And they are connected. And so that is a hard topic. Well, once you get through the foundation, you understand that philosophy of it all, the nature philosophy, the natural man, you know, those types of things. Then this will. After that, it's just a history lesson.

But in order to understand how it was that those things came about, you have to provide, you know, thinking, a framework to understand what's going on. And a lot of this, you know, this movement probably, you know, for me, I should say, for me to write this book, you know, I grew up a young guy in the seventies, you know, listening to John Denver, you know, and listened to all the environmental discussions as a kid and took it serious.

I used to criticize my grandfather for cutting down too many trees on the farm because he wanted to, you know, burn a warm home. Yeah. Okay. Because I listen to people, right. I'm listening to the school too much, you know. Okay. Well, anyway, then I become a christian man. Interesting. The lutheran church high school. Probably at the confirmation, the first time, actually, I heard the gospel justification by faith, which taught to me. And I understood the cross was a bridge between man and God.

So I become a believer. And then I went to Evergreen State College after high school. And the Evergreen State College is like the Berkeley of Washington state, very liberal. And in those days, all the stuff that you hear today, okay, in our colleges was being taught at that school. And I went there because it was local, very close and very affordable. But any left wing. Cause they were emphasizing teaching. And so I heard it all.

I mean, my first year it was, you know, for example, political ecology. We studied it for two whole semesters. And there they integrate all the. All the credits. If you look at carefully, what they're doing is it's like a monastery school for adults, you know, every state college. So all the credits are put into one class. Then they divide it out, you know, you know, for whatever is according to what you're teaching, what you're learning.

So I took political ecology for two semesters, 32 credits. And they divided up biology, that kind of stuff. Evolution, environmental history, reading, writing. You do lots of reading writing. So one of the things that they really emphasize, it really surprised me as I go into this school and I'm being hit with this stuff. They were blaming the christians for the environmental catastrophe that our world is supposedly in now.

And they went after the book of Genesis in particular, where Adam is made in God's image. He's above nature. He doesn't commune with nature. He is commanded to rule over nature. And this is what has led to a dominating, man centered view over nature. So they criticized Christianity in particular for this type of view, worldview that has led to this ecological problem we have everywhere. And then also, you know, you would read like, for example, Jesus, you know, he hates wolves, okay?

And he's going to protect the sheep. You know, things like this. And this went on and on. I mean, they were very critical of Christianity because of its anti nature tendencies. So, you know, I just, I didn't know what to do with it, really. I mean, I, I was kind of taken off guard by it. A young Christian Mandev. I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know it was. I kind of put it on the show, you know, and it's, it's up there. And then, you know, I graduated from the college.

My second year actually was a good year. I took classical world all year long. It was all about the classical world from early greeks to early Christianity. But I was taught by jesuit priests. And so he was liberal, but still pretty fair guy. But it was excellent. Course, I learned a lot about the classical times. And then after that is when I got into political stuff. So you had like basically marxism, socialism for two semesters.

And in the last year, the last semester was race, class and gender. So all the stuff now that's taking over our country. Yeah. I mean, we were studying. Everybody laughed at it back then, you know, I mean, my uncle, for example, Barbara, you know, he. I got free haircuts for years, but he's, he's now, he's no longer with us these days, but he's passed on to be with the Lord. But when he was younger, he was kind of a little ornery on occasion, especially when you're doing business.

And he used to whistle at the people walking by as he was cutting hair. But that was back in the eighties. And now, of course, you can't do that anymore. And now it's the other way around. But it's even worse. I mean, you're, it's not being whistled at. You're being basically, you know, being forced to accept a worldview that's not true. But anyway, so that kind of stuff was very popular then. My last year, the last part of the evergreen time was how to be a bureaucrat.

So management in the public interest. Okay? So I mean, it's all connected. I mean, you know, this, these political worldviews that, you know, I studied, and then you become a bureaucrat. And a lot of evergreen students, by the way, went to Washington, DC. And they're in our bureaucracies today and they're unionized today against our taxpayers, which is bad thing. And it's not just them as many others like them. But then my very last semester, I decided I was in Buddha seminary.

And so I took a course called liberation theology. So all the stuff, you know, we got, I guess. So here's the christian Marxism, socialism, fascism, whatever you want to call it a. So I studied it. Yeah. So, I mean, so that's my background there. Free state college. Okay. And so then I go to seminary after that. And then we, then we go to the mission field, the former Soviet Union. And so I went to Belarus for a year, 95, 96.

And then we, after that, we continued to do ministry work, really off and on in the former Soviet Union ever since that time. And then we also started a church in Olympia, Washington. But to start a church is hard, okay? So we, you know, you gotta work. So I worked at the building Industry association of Washington.

And my job at that time, working part time, part time pastor, you know, part time building industry association, man, they needed someone to get on top of the stormwater rules that were starting to be implemented in Washington state. So it took me about two years to under. I mean, I got a master's degree back then. Today I have a doctorate. But back then, it took me two to three years to figure out what was it they're trying to do. And so I got on top of those rules.

So I had to be involved with education, helping all of our builders in the state of Washington get ready to do these new rules that were demanded of them on the job side. And then secondly, my job was to complain about those rules, okay? And because I became like a little lobbyist of sorts, just writing articles, okay, for the building industry, you know, their monthly newsletter. So in my studies of, you know, how to look at what's going on underneath, you know, just the mirror laws.

I mean, why are they doing these things? And what are the roots of stormwater management? I came across and realized one of the original stormwater gurus of what today is being basically was forced on all these builders long before the global warming stuff took over was Owen Seifert. And the Nazis called them Wild Owen. So I wrote an article about stormwater and about Nazis and the green movement. And our newsletter was basically went out to every newspaper, you know, in the state.

It went to every city administration in the state. It went to every government post in the state, of course, plus all of the members. And so, I mean, it was, you know, it was a pretty widely read and went to the, you know, right to people's homes. Okay. Well, anyway, this created a huge firestorm in Seattle. So, I mean, they publicly made a fool of me. And. Oh, wow. I mean, it was just. Yeah, I mean, they just. It was just madness. Okay. And so when I saw that, I realized there's something here.

And so I really. I started to look into it. But the other thing I was seeing that really struck me, and that's. This is why I read the book. So when I started to see. See this connection, is that the same arguments that I heard of Evergreen State College, the teachers, professors and the books we read criticizing Christian, Christians and Christianity for destroying the planet, the Germans were saying the same thing about the Jews in the 18 hundreds.

So when I saw that they are the exact same arguments. They are. No, you're just transferring from one guy to the next. But the arguments are the same. And when I saw that, I realized, okay, we need to get this in print. And I had a couple people encourage me to do it. And so, yeah, so that was the motivation for it. And when you look at the roots, the environmental movement, as I say, like in Russian, there's nothing good going on here.

Maybe with regard to conservation is okay, that's more of a judeo christian view. You conserve things. You manage things. Okay? You are the steward of things. In environmentalism, nature is king and nature rules you, and you're just, you know, basically, you're nothing. They're trying to save the planet and your name's not there.

And the very fact, very fact they're trying to save it, the very fact they're trying to save it means that there's a salvation there, but it's been secularized into a kind of a nature religion science mixture. And that's where we are right now. And the propaganda is thicken. And that worldview passed through national socialism. Great, because that's where I wanted to start, but particularly not national socialism as such.

To read the book, you explain how the worldview actually began in the 17 hundreds and in the 18 hundreds. And it appears it began building momentum through the 18 hundreds, climaxing and sort of metastasizing in a way in national socialism as a political, economic, and religious kind of, in a sense, religious ideology? Yes, of course. Semi religious. There's no question. Some more religious than others, you know, depending on who it was. So maybe we can go ahead, please. I put it this way.

To people. Okay. If you look at the history, for example, of Old Testament. Okay. Baalism. Okay, this was what brought Israel down the first, the northern kingdom. Okay. From. They went down in 721, 722 BC to the assyrian empire. And they came in, why? Because of their foolish idolatry. Baalism, okay. And so. But it took 200 years for the final fruits of that to, you know, basically become the destruction of the nation. And then the southern kingdom lasted longer. Judah, Jerusalem.

Because they had repentance on occasion. You know, they were able to recover. They have some good kings, but eventually Baal ism brought them down, too, and it was like 400 years, okay? So these things should not be. Shouldn't be surprising. So it takes time and for the fruits for those things to finally snowball into something more serious. So can you talk about some of the influential thinkers in the 18 hundreds in particular, like I can think of?

Nietzsche, of course, was significant, but he was not a Nazi. He obviously wasn't a national socialist. But a lot of the early work was. A lot of the early seeds were sown during this time, according to your book. So maybe you can walk through some of the names and some of the movements that began to sow the seeds that would later spring up. Well, what you can argue is Nietzsche was proto Nazi. He was not nazi himself, but many of his ideas were absorbed by national socialism.

And Nietzsche is a very important. Nietzsche. I'm german, but Nietzsche is a very important figure because Nietzsche was Hitler's second favorite philosopher. People don't know this, but the Nazis put up, like a monument to him. They had, I don't say like a museum, but a study center for Nietzsche's worldview, for his ethics, for whatever they were, the superman stuff. And so what the Nazis did, they merged Nietzsche's Superman ethos with. This is like the Superman ethos is mean today.

There's no God. We've actually crucified him, so to speak, according to Nietzsche, practically speaking, because of our academic progress. And he's thinking of people like Kant and people like that that preceded him. Okay? And so now what we have is these. We have no gods that are gonna help us, and so we need to become gods ourselves, like little demi gods. And this is part of his whole Superman ethos for men to grow up and to be real men.

And so that actually mixes with the nazi biological views of racism. So, see, it wasn't merely the so called science of social darwinism and biology that led the Nazis to their racist views. You have this Nietzsche Superman stuff also playing a role. And Hitler loved. You can criticize all you want. There's all kinds of books out there, people going both ways, trying to save Nietzsche's hide from the national socialist connections. But they're actually there.

I mean, you can sit there and say, well, he wasn't anti semite. Well, the problem is, he's buddies. He listened to Arthur Schopenhauer, and he was a super anti semite, which a lot of people don't know. And he was also friends with Richard Wagner, the composer, and he was also super, okay, anti semite. Yeah. There was some kind of conflict between them, this and that and the other. And yet, and in his books, on occasion, you will see Nietzsche say, the odor of the Jews, okay?

And this goes back to Schopenhauer and the odor of the Jews, according to Schopenhauer, was the anti nature views of the Jews against nature. So, okay, so talk about that specifically because.

Because it gets to what you were discussing during your time at Evergreen State College and in Seattle, as you're looking into these issues, that there's a worldview that's being set up in opposition to the judeo christian, jewish, and then christian worldview that takes a different tack on some of the things that are early on in Genesis. So maybe we can set up those two opposing worldviews and juxtapose them together. Well, Schopenhauer is the guy that really emphasized this.

He goes back a little bit earlier than Nietzsche. Nietzsche was, you know, he died in 1900, okay? And Schopenhauer was born in the late 17 hundreds. He died, I can't remember it, like, 1860. I can't remember exactly. But so he proceeded. He precedes nietzsche. And what Schopenhauer emphasized over and over again, especially in some of his books, is he would complain about, you know, the jews we need to exterminate.

Actually used the term, that type of stuff, you know, the jewish views of nature from the european continent. Okay? By the way, Schopenhauer was Hitler's favorite philosopher. Number one was Schopenhauer. Number two was Nietzsche, okay? And this idea that Hitler was, you know, couldn't read these men or, you know, didn't know about these men, really. Or it was just. I mean, come on. I mean, he read these books, okay? He was not some, you know, really dumb guy. Of course, he.

He's twisted and all that kind of stuff. We understand all that. But he. He was a voracious reader. He read lots of things. And Schopenhauer was his favorite philosopher. And secondly, Nietzsche. And they are connected. So, basically you can make a line from Schopenhauer to Nietzsche in the sense of, we call this the existential movement. And by existentialism, we mean this world with no intervention from God, and then it's strictly existence. And what matters is not.

Therefore, that's all there is. What matters is not your thought, it's your will. See? Okay? See? And so what nature has is not necessarily thinking. And of course, that's true. If you look at nature alone. Yeah. That's what you're gonna come up with. So Schopenhauer is gonna come up with this. Existentialism, pure existentialism, okay? And so he said, look at what is most characteristic of the world we live in. The one we know, the one that's just get rid of the Bible.

Forget about supernatural stuff. It's the will. Okay? So Nietzsche's going to take that, and he'll talk about the freedom. Not the freedom, but the will to power. And then the Nazis, okay? It's a triumph of the will. And Lenny Reifenstahl makes this super movie about the Nazis that was banned for a number of years because of its. It was so influential, a documentary about the national socialist movement they called the triumph of the will. So what matters is not your thought.

It's what you will to be the case. So this is what we call existentialism. And that existentialism is that will is against the will of God, okay? It's against a transcendent will from the outside. And so it's man's will, and it's a man. He's rooted in nature and he's rooted in. And of course, Nietzsche talked about the man of this world, the man of nature, okay? And so this was part of his whole discussion. And then the Nazis also talked about the natural man.

The reason why they were the master race is because they were the closest to nature, and that's what they thought, okay? And the social darwinism is also the scientific aspect to this. All that also was brewing it all at the same time. So you have this existentialism that was anti semitic, and he routinely criticized the Jews for even, like, things like animal cruelty. Okay?

Then you have this mixing with science, with biology and social darwinism, and then you have this Nietzsche Superman ethos, and you put those three ingredients together, you've got yourself quite the. It's not a Molotov cocktail. It's going to be something more serious than that. And this was all absorbed in the academia that continued to grow up until the rise of the national socialist movement. So those things were very at the rock bottom.

Schopenhauer was especially irate against the Jews for animal cruelty. He blamed the Jews for animal vivisection. When you do experiments on animals, he traces all the way back to Genesis. In fact, one of the first things the Nazis did in 1933 was to pass an animal rights law. People don't know this, but it's true. 1934, my home state of Washington gave Hitler a humane Society award. It was like the Eichelberger Humane Award. 1934 in Seattle, I'm not too far from here.

And here, all these people, when I wrote this article about this green Nazi, Alan Seifert, starting stormwater, okay, my own city of Seattle gave the Hitler the Fuhrer an award for being such a guy who loved animals. So this was not so. He was well known by then, even by 1933, for being a. For being a nature bar. I gotta move that. No problem. I'm sorry about that. My sister walks in, she never does this. She probably do it today because. Ron, you have to cut that out. So I'm sorry.

Yeah, that's all. That's what sisters are for. They're there to mess up their brothers. She's never been there. And then she's here this morning. Sorry about that. Anyway, so they had an animal rights law they passed in 1933. And I. One of the things that they did, probably the most important thing they did, they banned jewish kosher slaughter for being too cruel. And of course, Schopenhauer talked about this, too.

And they made a big movie about this, the Nazis in 1940, about how cruel the Jews were to the animals. This, in 1940, they call it the eternal jew. See, that's against this existentialism of this life, okay? This life. Only then you have the eternal jew because he's borrowing things that are not true from the transcendent outside. That's just superstition. And they have, yeah, they've given us a worldview that is very destructive to the world we live in and especially toward animals.

So. And this is actually highlighted as the most heinous aspect of why the Jews need to be eradicated. So if you look at the eternal jew, this documentary lasts, I think, about an hour. And they go through various things. You know, why they're evil, why they're not good, you know, they're in the ghettos and, you know, you go through this and that.

The other thing, they sit, they don't want to work, and, you know, they just go to the banks, they run, you know, the Hollywood of Germany back then, they corrupt our society with the things that they are presenting. So it goes on and on. But then the climax of this, of this documentary, and it really spends a lot of time with this is animal cruelty, kosher slaughterhouse. And they actually show the process to make people really angry at, you know, at the jewish people.

So that's called the eternal jew. It was broadcast, it was put in all the movies of, you know, movie halls of Nazi Germany in those days and other places, too. And so that's Schopenhauer's connection, what he calls the odor of the Jews, okay, eventually leads to what the Nazis presented to Germany, the eternal jew. So I think the thing that was most informative for me about your book, and I'm very grateful that I had the chance to kind of reread it, preparing for the interview.

So most reading is rereading. And so to go through it, I read it in December, January, February of this year, and then to pick it up again after some of the ideas had settled in and reengage with the material to see the various streams. So we can talk about existentialism, or we can talk about social darwinism, or we can talk about romanticism.

That all of these were various tributaries that fed one big river, and each individual tributary in and of itself might not necessarily lead to that inevitable conclusion. But when you fuse them all together, you get something truly explosive and destructive that we don't really understand today, for the reason that you had said earlier that Germany has never really fully repented for what actually went on.

In fact, it sounds like from the early narrative of the book, what instead happened is the national socialism nazi movement was politicized very quickly by the allied powers to make it into the enemy, that they needed it to be covered up a lot of what was actually going on. And then we just went about our business, all of us carrying these lies about who the national socialists really were. And that seems to me to be the case.

And now people have these ideas from film and tv, right, and the media, essentially, that paint the picture of Nazis as christians and capitalists when they hated both of those things, which is the hysterical part. Well, I mean, when they arrived in Nazi Germany, the army, and I don't think they had really a solid understanding of what's really going on with the worldview of national socialism. They were just shocked at how is it that a so called educated country could do this?

And they're not looking at things deeply and more seriously that look at the same so called most educated society of Germany. They gave spawn to the reformation, okay, with Martin Luther, but within a couple hundred years, they're already rebelling against that. So by the 18 hundreds, it's an all out assault against the Bible, which probably is at the real root of everything. I don't really talk about that a little bit because that's really not the point of what I'm trying to get at.

But another argument could be made is that the higher criticism that we've heard so much about. Okay, and some of these guys were also anti Semites with this. And if they weren't, maybe vocally, per se, still, the whole edifice was anti semitic. They're trying to get rid of the jewish elements. And they started out by attacking the historicity of the Bible and largely because of its so called jewish influences, which goes back to Immanuel Kant.

And he's another rabid anti semite that people don't understand either. He was extremely critical of jewish people. You don't see this in his writings, but his lectures was full of anti Semitism. So he also. And he also used the word exterminate when he talked about jewish people, that term. So Schopenhauer, and maybe not the exact german term, I couldn't tell you what that was. But the idea, it's not good, is that you have Kant and you have Schopenhauer.

They become like prophets of the future for Germany, even though they would have been aghast at what the Nazis actually did. Okay. But yet when you put forth these ideas and at the time, people really all pay attention to them and things like this, it seems like it's innocuous idea, but they're really not. And over time, these ideas metastasize into something very serious, like the tributaries you mentioned. Very good illustration.

And finally it coalesces into, you know, the drain that goes out to the ocean. Then that's where it's a big problem. So now my wife. Anyway, ladies, the boys are talking. Yeah, right, right. Anyway, it's just a big topic, and it's hard to. So my book details all of those different, different discussions, and. And people just don't know that history. And it's very difficult to know it. I mean, you have to spend time, and they just kind of ignore it.

And part of it is because today we live in such an existentialist world. Anyway, that's what we call post modernism. Okay? So people don't care about what people believe anymore. So they don't look at it. They don't take it serious. And so the beliefs of the Nazis. I was amazed. Okay, I've looked at. I've read lots of books on national socialism, okay? Lots of time, 15 page bibliography. I mean, and there are.

There are very few books that you can find that actually try to explain what the Nazis actually believed. So what they've done is that they've projected onto the Nazis things that really aren't true based on their own. Whatever, though. These guys were mean, racist. Okay, okay, well, that's a. That's true. But why were they mean races? How did they get there? They're not answering that question. They don't even ask the questions about it. And they're very superficial and simplistic answers.

And the whole anti God, the anti biblical, anti reformation stuff played a big role, because in order to become an existentialist, okay, you have to reject the Bible. See, so Germany was supposedly in its reformation, and then during this time, they make this transition from the reformation to existentialism. And then after national socialism, we have what we call postmodernism. And all these ideas are still with us. They have not. They've just trained.

They've changed into something new in terms of labels. But basically, it's the same ideas, but the names have changed. So I want to drill in to the specific german romantic antisemitism, because we're shown this today, and I think we've all been shown german anti semitism our whole lives. Not a year goes by where there's not a new Holocaust movie. But as you said, very rightly, no one asks why. It's just assumed, like, oh, they just hate the Jews because they're Jews. Right?

But the german romantic element, as you laid it out with Schopenhauer and Nietzsche and Kante, had a specifically environmental quality to it. That was the real, let's call it sin from the german romantic perspective. So maybe we can talk about that, because that speaks to, I think, a question that, as you just said, no one really asks, like, why? And the roots of that were ultimately environmentalist in nature.

So maybe we can talk about that for a moment, because that just opens the door, I think, to everything else. Well, see, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche were existentialist, okay? And then. But then before that, you have what we call romanticism. And this is. I don't know how to characterize, you know, they want to be one with nature. It's kind of a romance with nature, okay? And the idea is to commune with the natural world in such a way that we don't abuse it. Okay?

So this is what we call the romantic worldview, which in Germany was pretty strong. I mean, it was also in England, too, but in Germany, it takes on this anti semitic role. So again, they're blaming. The german romantics are blaming the Jews for the destruction of nature, okay? They're in the cities, okay? They're running the banks and the train system, and this is leading to destruction of the forest and all the things that are dear to our folk culture.

You know, that we grew up close to the land, okay? So that kind of stuff, it's uprooting us from our foundations, you know, on this romantic world that we. We think that we live in. See that, you know, the form, the pastoral background, you know, from a romantic point of view, that it's actually anti God, strangely enough, anti biblical. But still, the romantic movement preceded all that. And so they also had this anti semitic to it. Probably the most.

There's a number of them, but probably the most anti semitic that's. Is his. You know, his name was, again, he was like, in the 1860s, Riel. So he was a very strong anti semite. He was a forester. He, like. He liked that. He was into teaching on forestry professor. You know, he had a big impact. He wrote some books, the natural history of Germany, three volume set. I've read through a lot of it.

Again, a number of anti semitic quotes, okay, that are presented in his book, blaming the Jews for this kind of ecological destruction. They didn't call it ecology back then. They would just call it nature. So the man that actually invented the word ecology is Ernst Haeckel, and he was a german social darwinist. Okay? The first. He's really the father of german social darwinism. And he was a man that took Darwin's view of evolution and converted it into social darwinism. He made it more social.

He made it more political. And so Darwin's going to be. He's more English. He's going to be more hesitant to do that. But the Nazis, I mean, the Germans and the Nazis later on, too, would adopt many of these ideas. He's going to actually socialize this view. He's a scientist, but he's like a social scientist along with it. See, even though he was, I think, a paleontologist, if I remember correctly.

But he's the one who coined the term ecology in 1866, and then he's the father of german social darwinism. So there, at the root of environmentalism, ecology, you have racism. And by the way, when. When people start talking about overpopulation, okay, to me there, it's no better to be sitting there talking about overpopulation than racism. It's the same thing as far as I'm concerned, because racism is just one form of anti humanism. And today our world is very anti humanistic.

Nature is everything today. And at some point, something bad is going to happen to people because of these bad ideas, okay? And we're not quite there yet, but you can see where things are headed. And it may take longer than we realize, like always, okay? But at some point, something bad is going to happen and it's because of these bad ideas. And romanticism also played a role. So you have romanticism, okay? Romance with nature, commune with nature.

A holistic view of nature that's against the holiness of God. You know, if you look at the hebrew term, for example, the word for holy basically, sometimes can mean whole, okay? But the holism, the holiness, comes from God, from the outside, from the transcendent source. It doesn't come from. With you and doesn't come from nature. So what the romantics want is for nature to give us purity. So they strangely think that nature is pure. And I mean, and this is that.

This is actually at the root of a lots of strange, faulty ideas about how to fix the environmental catastrophe for our world. They think nature is pure. So what you have to do is set aside people and everything they do. And if we do that, then everything is going to be pure, which is false. That's a false idea. It simply is not true at all. The Nazis had a very similar view in the sense we get rid of the Jews.

That's going to solve many of our ecological problems, see, our biological problems, our ecological problems. And what people don't realize is that with. With Haeckel, okay, he's going to make us biology, evolution and social Darwinism into a science, okay? This is Haeckel, by the way, not Hegel. So h a e c k e l. I'm just making sure to clarify that for listeners that we're not talking about Hegel. Haeckel. Haeckel with a K. Haeckel. Please continue, sir. Haeckel's a problem, too.

We'll get to him shortly. Yes, but no. So Haeckel is going to bring all those things together, and he's going to emphasize that he wasn't anti semitic, but he was anti christian. And again, he's pro nature, anti christian. So he blamed Christianity again for the destruction of nature. So all of those ideas were all there. And they go back to the 18 hundreds. That's sort of the seedbed for all of these things. And it's after the reformation was rejected. See?

So once that's done, then you start getting into other ideas. They thought they were progressive, you know, but really it was heading toward, you know, doomsday, World War one, and we could talk about that too. World War two was even worse. So I want to read the Wikipedia entry about romanticism really quickly because I think it touches on a lot of things. So romanticism, also known as the romantic movement or romantic eradic, was an artistic and intellectual movement that originated in Europe.

Towards the end of the 18th century. So the 17 hundreds. The purpose of the movement was to advocate for the importance of subjectivity, imagination, and appreciation of nature in society and culture. In response to the age of Enlightenment and the industrial revolution, romanticists rejected the social conventions of the time in favor of a moral outlook known as individualism.

They argued that passion and intuition were crucial to understanding the world, and that beauty is more than merely an altar, an affair of form, but rather something that evokes a strong emotional response. With this philosophical foundation, the romantics elevated several key themes which they were deeply committed. To, which they were deeply committed.

A reverence for nature and the supernatural, an idealization of the past as a nobler era, a fascination with the exotic and the mysterious, and a celebration of the heroic and the sublime. And so the Wikipedia article, and I'm going to try and share my screen right now, the Wikipedia article shows an image that I think it looks like I'm not going to be able to share my screen at the moment using this software, but we'll add it in, we'll try and add it in afterwards.

So the Wikipedia article shows the very famous painting wanderer above the sea of fog by Caspar David Friedrich. So for listeners, you've seen this painting before many, many times, particularly in the masculinity movement. It depicts a man standing at the pinnacle of rock. Pinnacle of rock. He's got flaming red hair and he's looking out over a sea of clouds. This used to be one of my favorite paintings for a very long time.

This is one of the signature works of the romantic movement is wanderer above a sea of fog. And you can see a lot of those ideas from romanticism embodied in that painting. And the artist himself, Caspar David Friedrich, who used to be one of my favorite painters as well, so the romantic era had a particularly strong grip over the german imagination for thinking about things in unbiblical and anti biblical way.

So I just wanted to lay that sort of philosophical groundwork for everyone listening so they understand just how powerful the romantic movement was, because this is not. We're rooting our truth in the Bible. We're rooting the truth in God's word. So we're rooting it in nature. We're rooting in individualism. We're rooting it in mysticism, in the exotic and the heroic past, not in the eternal word of God. And this took place in the late 17 hundreds. Well, let me read a quote from Ernst Layman.

He was a biology professor, 1880 to 1957. And he was also a national socialist, and noted that this is what his view of national socialism was. He says, we recognize that separating humanity from nature, from the whole of life. There's our holism leads to humankind's own destruction and to the death of nations. Only through a reintegration of humanity into the whole of nature can our people be made stronger. That is the fundamental point of the biological tasks of our age.

So there's our racism in terms of social Darwinism and evolutionary theory. You know, that type of stuff and biology. Humankind alone is no longer the focus of thought, but rather life as a whole. This striving towards connectedness with the totality of life, by the way. Totality of life. There's totalitarianism with nature itself. This is why I sharply disagree with. You know, the romantics say that we're in individuals. No, they don't.

They believe the destruction of the individual because he merges with nature to the point where he no longer matters with nature itself and nature into which we are born. This is the deepest meaning and true essence of national socialist thought. Now, when did you ever hear that in some. You know, some school of some sort? Never. Yeah. I mean, right? It's really sad. I mean, some people have no idea what the Nazis actually believed. And so I didn't know either. I mean, I knew all about Marxism.

I've read lots of Marx, okay. And I knew a lot, you know, a lot of his stuff. And, you know, from my days at Evergreen. But I knew nothing of national Socialism. There's just a big blind, you know, like a. Like a hole there. Well, now I know national Socialism. And in my opinion, I think my book should be read in every academic institution before they go to college. I mean, just look at what's cool. I agree because.

I agree because it's just, it's so everything that's going on today is, it's all there. I mean, the entire green. Everything they're doing today with regard to the green movement, the Nazis were emphasizing the same things. Well, that's shocking. That was one of the things on my first read through that was very convincing to your thesis. I mean, obviously, looking at it now, it's like, after allowing it to settle in, of course, very convincing.

But to recognize when I was talking to people about this book, because the idea is that the Nazis were green leftists, right. That just rocked a lot of people's minds because they'd had, oh no, they're christian capitalists. That's obviously who they were. Right. But to say, no, they weren't that at all. They were actually quite, they were closer in ideology to today's green ecological environmentalists.

And the thing that was most convincing to me was you cited the book how Green were the Nazis, which was, I guess, a leftist book, that they were already, that the left was already trying to distance themselves from the Nazis. Like, no, no, no, we don't really have anything to do with them. Like, why would they do that if there wasn't substantial evidence for them to try? No, I just, I've read all those books and they're also included in my work.

So in the early two thousands, you had a number of books that were written. And even before then too little bit after talking about how, you know, the green connections, national Socialism. And so it's like they already got out, the leftist people got out to be in front of this before it became a problem. And so they wrote these books and then now they're happy. And so they can use those books to criticize anybody that says anything different.

I mean, so, so that, I mean, they're already ahead of the game. And of course, conservatives in America don't pay attention. They're just always being, they're always behind everything, you know, which is sad, but that's, you know, that's how things are. They're the ones being called Nazis. Right? So like, oh, I'm not, no, I'm not. Like, the Nazis are over there. Right. Then lately I've been noticing I haven't looked into it. Cause I don't have time for it. But what's going on now?

They're starting to admit, okay, yeah, the Nazis were green, but what ruined it was this male dominance of the Nazis. Oh, interesting. So this is heading in another direction. I have not, I've just looked at the titles. I have not read anything. But it's something in this direction where the right wing masculinity, this kind of stuff, so ruined the nazi movement.

I would actually argue that what happened is that World War one and World War two basically neutered the west because of all the men that died in both those wars, leaving a lot of argument. Right. So leading lots of men, young men that were raised by their mothers. And so we have a very feminized society that is now finally affecting America, too, because we're listening to Europe too much of the time. I would be curious to know what some of those titles are. I'd like to. I'd like to read them.

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me later. Right. I can send you some. I'd have to. Right. There's a few of them. Yeah. So I wonder if we can talk quickly about Martin Heidegger, because it seems to me that early on, he's sort of painted as the way that some of these ideas from the National Socialists slipped in to the dialogue under the COVID of perhaps his girlfriend. So maybe we can talk about the two of them as well. Heidegger is an existentialist. He loved, you know, he loved Nietzsche.

And so his whole thing was to, you know, make Nietzsche more updated, you know, for the National Socialist age. And, you know, he was a real Nazi. People don't realize this. I mean, he was a. He was a card carry, card carrying Nazi. He never repented of his Nazism after the war. Yeah. He said he felt that what happened is that the Nazis became too industrialized. Okay, well, that's because they started a war, and you can't, once you start a war, you have to industrialize.

There's no way around this. And so the Nazis had to go. They had to betray all of their principles at the beginning, that they held dear to themselves, that they had to finally let go of that stuff. And we've got to make tanks and forget all this other stuff. Of course, they didn't do that. They've made rockets, too, and all kinds of stuff. But, you know, the technology stuff is another issue.

Okay. You have to sit down and think about, how can the Nazis be so technologically minded and yet be emphasized? The green movement. Well, look at what's going on today. Who are the most technological people we have today and who are most interested in nature? It's the same people. Okay? You've got, you know, all of the Googles and apples and all this stuff, okay?

These guys are all super technology peoples, supposedly, and they're all, you know, romantics and various ways existentialist and environmentalist and other ways. So John Denver, for example, you know, he loved flying. And, you know, I think Reagan asked him to, you know, do this when the challenger blew up. He did the song for it. And he was always, you know, proud of, you know, that type, space, you know, space travel. Of course, he won a Ron Brown.

We haven't even mentioned him, but it's the same kind of a problem. Okay. And there's some research that needs to be done with regard to him. There's some more serious research. But he's an SS Nazi. He also has very. He. I'm sure he has. He was concerned about global warming coming from carbon dioxide in the 1950s. I can't prove it because I don't have time to chase it down, but I know it's there because this kind of snuck into some of these Disney cartoons in the 1950s.

And, you know, he was portrayed as this, you know, great guy that's going to give us the space agent. And so then these cartoons that were on 1950s in America, and I saw him as a kid in the 19, early seventies, late sixties, they were talking to one of them, several of them, they put together, and one of them talks about how great this super age is going to be. And then. And then all of a sudden, the flying ointment, this is 1950s is carbon dioxide. Too much of it, and it's gonna.

It's gonna pollute the atmosphere and lead to all kinds of flooding going on. No way. Really? 1950S? Yes. A better, simpler time. So, I mean, so, again, that idea was there in the 1950s, and now look where it's at. It takes time to develop ideas, and then eventually they take over. And then later on, once the ideas, they put them into practice, then you have the fruits of it. So we've talked about some of the names that surround the Nazis.

So we talked about Schopenhauer and Kant and Nietzsche and Haeckel and Heidegger. We've talked about the intellectual and in some sense, spiritual contexts that surrounded them. Maybe we can talk about some of the beliefs of the Nazis themselves. So Himmler, we can talk about Bormann. We can talk about Goering. Of course, I'd love to talk about Hitler and what he believed, because we've set the context to see that this was not a christian movement. These were not christian men.

They were not surrounded by christian men. In fact, I might also like to talk about what had happened to the church in the decades leading up to Nazism. But so we've talked about the intellectual context that these men were embedded in the many philosophical streams that the tributaries that fed the river. Let's talk about what the men of National Socialism actually believed. And maybe we can just go through a bunch of the different names.

Well, like we already mentioned, I think, in terms of ideology, okay, Heidegger would probably would be the most serious, you know, Nazi in terms of the philosophy of national Socialism, which was a national socialist existentialism. And so basically, for example, you've heard this discussion about, you know, being okay. Being. That's his big emphasis. Well, he said, the fatherland is being itself. And so being okay. Okay. That means a quotation from Heidegger.

Okay, so being is like the existential in this world, okay. This world only without any outside interference from the outside. This is being okay. And so he taught in his lectures that the fatherland was being itself. And so that would be his view. And from there, he's going to develop what later becomes what we call being. And he said, let being be. And so this is after the war? This is after the war. Yeah. John Lennon sang the song let it be. Okay, so, okay, what's going on after.

After national socialism? Is that. Is that the will? The Nazis, like, ruined the will. So Heidegger saw what the Nazis can do with will. And so there's kind of a semi repentance. It's not serious, but a little bit. And so then let's just let being be. So now the will is destroyed. So, you know, basically, if you. We can give a rundown of history very quickly, you know, with the Protestants, what was important, the Bible alone. Let's get back to the Bible. That's like a romantic view that.

Okay, we're gonna go back to the origins, back to the purity of the Bible. That's a romantic view. And we want to reproduce a New Testament church. Okay? But it's a biblical romanticism. So it's. Okay. Romanticism is like a counterfeit to that. So what they want to do is use. First of all, you had reason. We want to use reason alone. So we go from Bible alone to reason alone, and that's our humanism. Okay? And then the romantics came along and said, well, this humanism has no place for nature.

And that's a distortion because you got that humanism from Christianity. So they started to criticize that. So then it becomes sort of nature alone. And then with nature alone, we are now existentialism, the will alone. And then after the destruction of world War two, what can be done with the will? Well, lots of bad things. Okay, now. Okay, now it's got. Let's just let being be. And this really is at the heart of the environmental movement in the sense we just need to let nature be.

If you don't touch it, I mean, you can have sex with anything that moves, but if you touch mother nature, it's like you're touching a virgin. See? And you better not touch it. And so this is really sort of the underlying how Martin Heidegger played a big role, going from the early romanticism, existentialism, now to the postmodernism, where just let being be and your will, your intellect doesn't really matter that much. The will is, you know, be careful of your masculine will, as we say today.

So that would be Martin Heidegger. And I think he's a pretty important person to help understand national socialist ideology. The guy that was most known, actually, is. He wrote the myth of the 20th century. I can't think of his name. No, not spirit Rosenberg. He was supposedly the official nazi propagandist. But Hitler kind of made fun of him quite a bit. But still, I mean, he was a mean guy. He played a bad role in the Holocaust. And I think he was in charge of places in Poland.

I can't remember exactly where it was. Did some things that were not good. So he also would be someone. The myth of the 20th century. See that kind of stuff. You read that stuff. And this will help you understand the National Socialist world. Do. Even though Hitler may criticize a few things, but, you know, he's not being more or less the same ideas are there. It's just, you know, he may be critical, just like you and I may be critical of each other over certain theological points.

Okay, we all do this at some point, and this is true. The National Socialists, of course, you have Albert Speer. Okay, so Albert Speer was probably the closest friend Hitler ever had and probably his real friend. The only friend, maybe. I mean, it's hard to say. I mean. Well, Rudolph. Yeah. Okay, we'll get to him. So then you have Albert Speer. He was sort of the green architect, you know, so he was, you know, he basically what today we call a green building.

Okay, well, he was sort of one of the pioneers of that type of activity. Okay. And he was involved with that. Another guy that he liked that was. He actually replaced him in 1942. He was killed. He was in charge of a lot of that kind of stuff. And again, the names are kind of forgetting because it's been so long since I've written this book now. But he was also another green builder, and he did lots of things connected to. He built the roads, for example, the Audubon.

He was trying to connect things. He was trying to connect things with nature in a better way, you know? Yeah. So he played a role also with this. I can find it and I'll give it to you. Okay. But some of these names are, you know, they. So that. That's the green building aspect. Okay. Then you have Rudolph Hess. Okay. He was into basically organic food. Doctor. Doctor Tote to bond. Yep. So basically, spearhead spirit took his position after he died in world War Two and a plane crashed.

Some people have been suspicious, you know, of that plane crash. But anyway, the war is not going well, even as early as 1942, which a lot of people don't realize it's not. You know, they were. They were forcing. They were going through many problems in world War two, even by 1942. So you have tote then. You have, of course, course, Hess. Hess was like, he loved organic food, but he liked environmental things, too.

Basically, he was in charge of many, what they called in those days, conservationist environmental activities. He basically put all of the greeners of those days. They didn't call them greeners back then, but all the conservationists, they kind of put them under the wing of national socialism. That was sort of his responsibility. And he was very involved with organic foods. And he sat in Spandell prison after the war, still complaining about the industrial complex with the food.

So did Heidegger, by the way, everything. Capitalistic farming practices, this and that and the other. So Hess would have been someone interested also in organic farming, which a lot of people don't know. The other thing is you have. Himmler also was sort of the green mystic. Okay? So he liked organic farming, too. There was so organic farming that they tried to shut down in 1941 because the war was not going well. And the Nazis realized, we can't be fooling around with experiments right now.

We have to get back to food production because we're starting a war and the economic situation is not good. So they can some people, with regard to organic farming, but Himmler actually took it secretly, and his plan was to bring organic farming into Poland.

So after the Nazis conquered Poland, you can see the beginnings of trying to figure out how can we establish some organic farming that we're going to implement into the new lands that we have now conquered, and we're going to treat better nature better than what happened underneath the Slavs. And so Himmler also had lots of quasi religious ideas. He was a mystic. Okay, okay? Hermann Goering was sort of a. He was an aristocrat, okay?

And so his connection to environmentalism, okay, is that, you know, he was a, he was a hunter, but he loved the animals. I mean, he loved predators. Especially one of the big emphasis today, environmentalism is they love predators more than the deer and the elk, in case you haven't noticed. What they focus on is all on the predators, okay? And so, and, you know, by the way, I mean, the farmers of America, they got rid of those predators. Well, we had a society with guns, okay?

And, you know that they killed all the wolves because they have their farms to take care of and protect. And, you know, the grizzly bears, too, and the black bears are not so bad. So anyway, so the predator type stuff, he loved predators, by the way. He walked around 1936 Olympics with a lion on a leash. I read that. Yeah, yeah. And he just loved the animals. And yes, he may have killed him like the deer, but there was a love affair with animals that you should not neglect.

And there are many hunters like this in America today, too, by the way. So was Aldo Leopold. He was a hunter, okay? And he was also a very important environmentalist. In fact, he wrote a book, you know, that I read in Evergreen State College. And one of the things he talked about is we in America has to get rid of the abrahamic concept of the land. That's right. So Ryvard, even right there, it's all the same stuff, okay? And so guring is that aristocrat.

And I think in a lot of ways, if you look at his history, you realize the aristocratic connections to environmentalism. And this is where you would have, what I would, if you want to call it that, the real right wing, so called ecology goes back to the old aristocracies of Europe, and those old aristocracies were in charge of the land, okay? And they. And of course, the king and his forest wanted to protect the land. Okay? This was the place where he's going to hunt.

And that's sort of the place where, you know, Gurion kind of slips into there. He built a nature reserve, his own house, turned his, he had this big area, big land area, and he turned it into a nature reserve. He was trying to bring back buffalo. You know, he had moose on his property, you know, this and that and the other thing. And trying to. So he, the idea that all he cared about was killing deer is just a bunch. It's not true.

I mean, Georing was a very strong environmentalist in his own way, okay? So that's Goering. Okay. Then you have Hitler himself. And Hitler's main thing wasn't so much environmentalism, per se, like land use and things like that, and it wasn't connected. He hated hunting. So did Himmler. In fact, they criticized Goering all the time for loving hunting.

So here I am reading all of these how green the Nazis and these kinds of books, trying to save, you know, environmentalism for the National Socialists, you know, you know, from their, you know, getting their hands dirty with national Socialism. And here they are criticizing goering, you know, for hunting. Well, so did Hitler, for crying out loud. And so did Hess. And Himmler did, too. So they all. They all hated hunting.

I'm not sure about Hess, but Himmler, and probably hess did, too, just knowing his worldview. Yeah, they're all vegetarians. Yeah, well, they see, what Hitler was into was vegetarianism, but even more than that was the animal rights crusade. So Hitler's environmental connection is with the animal rights. And today, that's as big. I mean, they're at the point now where they're going to give animals more rights than people. We're almost there. They're trying. They're working.

And so the 1933 animal rights law was very important. And this goes back to Arthur and Schopenhauer. And again, Hitler could quote Schopenhauer verbatim. And so that's a very strong connection. So that's Hitler's primary interest in nature was his, you know, the animal cruelty, you know, the humane. Humane society being humane to animals. And then, of course, if you look at Hitler, where did he spend most of his time? In the alps. Okay. I mean, it's this beautiful home.

I mean, people don't really think about what that really means, but, I mean, it's up in the mountains, okay? It's a. You know, he's enjoying the natural serenity. I mean, and, you know, I mean, there's something going on here that is merely beyond what people are. They don't really think about it as seriously as they should. Yeah. That's about the fear. Yeah. It's not that, you know, enjoying the mountains or animal cruelty or these things are bad in themselves.

It's that they rooted themselves in an anti biblical worldview. It's that they were expressions of the belief that nature is predominant over man, and we need to get closer to nature to get closer to what we conceive of as God. It's environmentalism versus conservationism. And I think there was a section where you talked about this with the hetch Hetchy dam and John Muir? I think it was.

And the decisions that even had to be made in the early 20th century America regarding, is nature going to serve man, or is man going to serve nature? So maybe you can talk about that episode very quickly, because the point that is so essential about the book is not just that we rightly understand history as such. Yes, that's very, very important, and we do need to get that.

But the national socialist policies and the tributaries that fed the stream, it's not like the river just suddenly ended in the 1940s with the end of world War two. It's still feeding us today. Yeah, exactly. So maybe we can talk about that for a second, because that brings it real into people's lives. Well, Teddy Roosevelt, and he was a big conservationist back in his day, too. Okay. And then you had John Muir. Well, they got into a conflict in California about how we're gonna.

How are we gonna give water to. I think that, you know, the San Francisco area. I don't know the exact. I think it's San Francisco, but it may be upstream there, too. Sierra Nevada mountains. And so they wanted to build a dam so they could have water because California is pretty dry. So they got into a big debate. John Muir did not want to build that dam because that dam would actually flood part of one of his favorite areas in the Sierra Nevada mountains.

And so there was a big conflict even back then. And Teddy rose up, finally decided to go with the, you know, with that dam, because that's what had to be done. We got people moving in here. We got to take care of them. And nature is to be used to help help people survive. So that antinomy between conservationism and environmentalism was born in America right there. Okay. They didn't call it, you know, they called it conservationism back in those days, but today we call it environmentalism.

But that antinomy led to what today we call sustainable development. Okay. Okay. So as they're trying to figure out, you know, how to do this, many, you know, basically national socialism is the. They are the gurus, the originators of what today we call sustainable development. So they're trying to blend the growth of industry, the growth of civilization, the growth of the cities, you know, whatever's going on here, with a. And, of course, farms, too, with nature, how to balance them.

So that's what we call sustainable development. And really, it's an outgrowth of that conflict that you originally see, for example, in America. It was already going on in Germany for many. For a long time. They debated that kind of stuff for decades. But with John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt, it becomes americanized. And so that very interesting distinction, the. Man who stood up to John Muir about it, his name was Gifford Pinchot. P I n c h o t. That those two. Those two got into it.

Him and John Muir got into it over the Hetch Hetchy dam. Now, I lived in the Bay area for about ten years. Oh, okay, I see. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So it's relevant to me because I would hear that name all the time. Of course, John Muir and all the national parks up in that area, and the beautiful natural environment that is northern California. And these tensions are ongoing with, like, oh, no, we have to do this for the land, and we have to take care of the land.

It's like, well, meanwhile, you have millions of people. It's like, oh, well, maybe we need depopulation. And then that's where the venomous side of the green movement of the left comes out, is that nature is so precious that we just have to depopulate the planet to prioritize the existence of nature over man. And they don't even really see it.

But the point that you make in the book is that that attitude first crystallized during national socialism that we all live with today, leftism, malthusianism, a lot of these ideas that took place in the 1960s that crystallized and first came together, like, well, maybe we can industrialize this extermination process to reduce the population. That's what shocked me, is that actually was what crystallized, what truly crystallized in national socialism.

First, it chose the Jews as their target, but the Jews was not where it was supposed to end. So maybe we can talk a little bit about that. Well, really, I mean, I know they talk about the industrial holocaust because of the numbers, but if you look at where these people died, I mean, it was a pretty primitive, you know, situation. They were in camps. I mean, this is sort of ignored. I. You know, the camps were mostly outdoors. There wasn't much. Wasn't much for you. I mean, and they didn't care.

People, you know, basically, the Jews were put in horse barns in Auschwitz, for example, and it wouldn't have been any better anywhere else. So, you know, I know that this is sort of a. This is part of the propaganda that goes on. They industrialize the Holocaust, and really, they basically destroyed the Jews in very primitive conditions. I mean, that. That's really the fact of the matter. And then, of course, they may have used some Zyklon B and things like that, you know, in these.

These camps. But, you know, it was a very primitive situation for the most part. But no, I mean, of course, the numbers are high. So that I have a little bit of debate with that. I mean, I don't think it's the right metaphor to explain, you know, the Holocaust, because it brings up, again, capitalism. Okay, see, it's not the right. The problems are deeper than that. You know, then what is normally sort of another caricature that even though we talk about it all the time.

So I have a little bit of a problem. I'm open to hearing that. Yeah, please, please. You can unpack that. Please. Well, I mean, you know, for example, I mean, if you look, if you could. I visited many of these, many of these death camps. Now, I've been to Poland a number of times. I've been to where the Nazis set up these camps. So I've been to Auschwitz a couple of times. I've been to Belzitz. I've been to Sobibor, and I've been to Treblinka and also Kilmo, some of the places to.

Just looking at them briefly. But one of the things you see at these places is this nature preoccupation with nature. Okay? That is at the part of the whole Holocaust problem. So my metaphor is the oak tree. And basically my book discusses the oak sacrifice of the judeo christian worldview in the Holocaust. And of course, the Jews were the primary people that suffered because of this anti biblical worldview. Going back to Genesis.

I make this case is that the oak tree was something that the Germans have worshiped for many centuries. And it's not just the Germans. It's all the druids. They were the old pagans. Some people have said druids means men of the oaks. But in the old pagan times, going back to even Old Testament times, okay, even there, you see how people were sacrificed, child sacrificed.

Underneath the oak trees, you have lots of what you would call romanticism going on with regard to nature, fertility of nature. How do we have good crops? Okay. All that kind of stuff. And this is all, if you look. On people, see, what is this? The Der Sturmer, the fumigating the oaks from the rats with the. If you look on camera, everyone can see that with the nazi armband, like, yeah, oak was. It was a big part of that. That's in 1927. So that that political cartoon was made in 1927.

And of course, they were gonna. They were going to save the oak tree by killing the jewish rats. Okay. With. With poison. That's right. Okay. This is 1927. Okay? So now that's exactly what you see where you. When you go to Auschwitz. Okay? I'm still. I'm trying to ferret this out, and I just don't have the time to run this down. But I've seen photographs, okay? And even today, you look at some of these 1944 flyover photographs, okay, that they took. And they have a picture of Auschwitz, okay?

And then you have, on both sides you have the gas chambers, okay, where the Jews were killed. But strangely enough, the gas chambers here were underground at Auschwitz, okay? Now in between them, you can see there's a big green tree there and it's huge. Has to be an oak tree. And I, and I want to, I want to run down, who are these architects that built this, you know, Auschwitz. And really, I mean, really, what are. What were their worldviews?

Okay, because that Der Sturmer cartoon, you could almost. That's exactly what I think was going on. Auschwitz in the sense we all were killing the Jews, the jewish rats, with poisonous. And here's that oak tree in between these two gas chambers, okay, that are there. And what are they doing? They're using rat poison, okay, to kill the Jews. I mean, that's almost like a prophetic political cartoon. Not even a cartoon, but it's gaslighting what's going on here. So you see that imagery.

There's oak trees, a number of them, giant oak trees. You go into Auschwitz there. The main camp. Big oak tree has been there. It's the one, that one tree you see that is famous for it, that it's an oak tree. The Nazis loved the oaks. Hitler loved oak trees. They all did. Okay? And of course, what comes out of oak trees are acorns. And we won't talk about our previous president a while back. That was all involved in acorn a while back. But anyway, they love the oak trees.

And so Hitler had oak trees planted all over the Reich. They planted them all over Poland, even on his birthday. They would do like a special oak planting day for planting of oaks at Belzitz. There are oak trees all over the place there. Okay? The same. I was at Sobibor. The same was true of Sobibor. Yeah. You can make the argument that this is also part of the landscape, but I think it's more than that because of the nazi world. I mean, they, they're using the.

The oak sacrifice of the Jews to help them get better. We get rid of the Jews and our world is going to be a sustainable, better future. And so we have to make the sacrifice underneath the oak trees. This is my view. I know people, but I think that's the proper metaphor for this. People get mad at me, criticize me. Look, I understand, but we have to look at this imagery more seriously than we are because of the beliefs of the Nazis.

And it may be a hard sale, but it's what I believe as I've read through this stuff. One of the things also that's sad was some of these death camps, like, I'm not sure about Treblinka. So before which one it was, I think may have been both of them. But after the Nazis got done killing the Jews in these camps, actually, they finished the job of killing the Jews in Poland. For the most part, people don't realize. That, but they actually did it mean operation Reinhardt, right?

Yeah. Yes. So one of the things they did after they were done, they planted lupins on top of the graves of the jewish people. Now, lupins are what? They're woolflowers, and they're, you know, Lupine. Lupin. Okay? So. And by the way, Hitler would call his Nazis the SS, his pack of wolves, okay? And they, you know, the. Yes. Okay. And so you look at all the names of the, you know, the german tanks, okay, the tigers, okay? You know, okay, you have the panthers, okay, you know, this kind of stuff.

You have, of course, the wolf pack. That would be the submarines, okay? They named them after these predators. And so. And Hitler loved wolves. That was his favorite animal. In fact, Nazi Germany was the first country in the world to protect wolves, and they didn't have any wolves. So it was very interesting that they wanted to do that. But, you know, and so this nature discussion has to be a part of the Holocaust, because the reason why people. How did these men become like.

Treat people like animals? Okay, well, it's because of their nature based ethos in which reason is now diminished. The human will is now diminished. Okay? The Nazis made it too far to will, so it became like a monster, okay? And so. And it's without any judeo christian ethics, without God.

There's no God on the outside that's going to punish us for anything that we've done, so we can do what we want, and yet it's going to be according to nature's laws, which has its own restrictions and its own religion, so to speak. And so this was the plan. And we're going to use the laws of nature, which is biology and social darwinism. We're going to enhance basically evolution to help us grow.

And of course, by the way, this is what all of our Google people are doing the same thing to us today, too. We call it AI. Basically, it's a eugenics. Okay. And the eugenics they're talking about today makes the Nazis look primitive, but it's all pretty much the same idea. Sustainable development, environmentalism, technology and all these things trying to be blended together into a holistic one. And by the way, my inter. My definition of fascism is holism. That's what it means.

Say more about that. Yeah. By the way, Hitler's fascism definition, he actually says what it is and people ignore this. He says fascism is a spontaneous return to the traditions of Rome. Where did he say that? 1941. A spontaneous return. Well, I mean, this is the meaning. Meaning that it's like, it's like he. And he also made comments. If we get rid of the Jews, then the world's going to go back to its natural order. It's like spontaneously. We'll go back to its natural order. That's right.

So these are goofy ideas. Okay? And. But you have to. This is what they believed, and we need to take them more seriously than we do. We kind of look at him. Well, how could a guy believe that? Well, he did, okay? And it wasn't just him. It was many people. And the academics, many academics did, too. So, for example, that riel, that forester, the biology forester guy, okay. I mean, he was very anti semitic. And, you know, we could talk all day about, you know, his strange ideas about the Jews.

Okay, yes. Well, so I think that the important thing that you've surfaced in the book is not just obviously that they were anti semitic and that they hated the. Jews, it's that they regarded the Jews. As a stain on nature. It wasn't the Jews as such. It was that they had a nature based religion, a nature based worldview. And they saw the Judeo christian meaning actually going back to Genesis as a stain on perfect, flawless nature with its dominion mandate.

That specifically the dominion mandate to fill the earth and subdue it was an affront to their nature based religion. So they had to exterminate the Jews who were propagating that idea. That was actually the root of the whole thing, not simply some sort of anti semitism as such. It was. They hated that idea and the propagators of it, who happened to be both Jews and Christians.

And so the reason why you subtitled your book this oak sacrifice of the Judeo christian worldview is that it was both persecuting Jews and Christians differently, but they could persecute the Jews more overtly than they could the Christians, because the Christians were, as I understand, a bigger voting block. So they had to be more careful with how they handled the Christianity aspect.

But it was a full, all out assault on a biblical worldview coming from a nature based religion that we don't really understand today. Right. And that nature based religion is with us very deeply in our own society. The propaganda is very deep. Yeah. So it's there. So here's just a few. Here's a few quotes from Riel, okay? And he goes back to the 18 hundreds. And he was.

Professor, okay, if in this scheme, the rootless Jews was a purveyor of this corrupted, citified society, the forester was his antithesis, the embodiment of ethnic authenticity, rooted, like his trees, in the ancient earth of the fatherland. So the Nazis compared themselves to the forest. People were like trees. You see, you're blending with nature. And that's what the Nazis held. But many germans did even before then, before they came to power.

Here's another where LaRGE numbers of jews, same man quoting, reside. The population as a whole is almost always politically and economically fragmented. See, agAin, there's the anti holism. The Jewish huckster finds that his paltry capital circulates much more freely among the urbanized and small town burghers, central Germany, than among the authentic peasants of the mountains or the plains.

So these are just a couple of quotes, but it reveals his attitudes about, you know, about the Jewish people and their anti nature. Now, here's Arthur Schopenhauer, who was before riel. Notice here, we owe the animals not mercy, but justice. And there's a lot of environmental, social justice going on right now. And what does he mean by that? Well, and the debt often remains unpaid in Europe, the continent that is permeated with Jews.

It is obviously high time in Europe that the Jewish views on nature should be expelled from Europe. So then there were there. We have expelled, not exterminated. But I think it was Kant that actually set the term, used the term, you know, exterminated. And he didn't mean the jewish person. He's talking about their idea. The fault lies with the jewish view that regards the animal as something manufactured for man's use. So there's, again, Arthur Schopenhauer.

These are the effects of Genesis one and generally of the whole jewish way of looking at nature. So, I mean, you know, it's something pretty deep. And this is something which basically, I read books about that same idea being basically targeted against christians. So he target against the Jews. Later on they'll use it against Christianity as well. You know, the Nazis, for example, believe that the Christianity was just sort of a way to. It was just another form of Judaism.

So, I mean, an international form of Judaism. Right. So at some point, I mean, they were going to come after the christians, too, and they already did. They tried to circumvent their churches. They did lots of things. You can read all about it. If you look at the newspaper, some of the things that went on, they were trying to change the doctrines. They kind of backed off a little bit because the church resisted. But again, too many christians went along with this, that type of stuff.

You quoted a book, the Swastika against the cross. And for listeners, there's going to be a giant list of resources in the show notes and a shopping list on Amazon where you can find all of these books. But this is the statistics that Walker cites in his book. In 1920 alone, more than 300,000 people formally resigned from the christian faith. During the years from 1918 to 1931, 2.4 million evangelical Christians formally renounced their faith, as well as almost half a million Catholics.

After the First World War, Protestants were formally abandoning Christianity at an average rate of 186,000 per year, and Catholics at a somewhat lower level, between 62% and 80% of Germans who were nominally christian when Hitler came to power had stopped taking communion. So there was just an evacuation of Christianity as well from National Socialist Germany in the years before. Yes, no, I'm either. Whatever's going on, you can debate the numbers.

Okay. But there's no question that clearly we have a nominalization of Christianity going on that helped to lead to this government that was very destructive. And so that nominal nature of the christian faith that we used to see in our own country is kind of. It's almost gone now. That had really no resistance against anything that was going on with regard to the national socialism. So. Right. That's a huge problem. So as they criticize the Bible, the higher criticism.

Okay. And then eventually what you have is a situation where nominalism takes over, and then with nominalism, there's going to be no opposition to any kind of religious opposition to what these men did. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about the Barman declaration and Karl Barth? Obviously, we know the name of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but the barman declaration was something that I hadn't heard of before. Oh, right. I mean, you know, this was something which. Yeah, they were men that were trying to.

They realized that this is very serious. And, you know, the Nazis were anti Christians, so they put together, they got together like a declaration, wherever, you know, we will. You know, Christianity is. Belongs to Christ, not to the Fuhrer. And so, you know, they basically signed a document. You have Karl Barth. Was there a number of, you know, other men, too, that we don't know anything about today because the history books have, you know, they've just kind of been forgotten.

But they signed it. And there was some opposition there that showed that we don't, you know, agree with what the Nazis are doing. However, you could also point out that they weren't. These guys were not too concerned about the Jews. Okay, so it's a problem, you know, in that sense. But still, right, there was some opposition. And the truth of the matter is that the only real group that opposed the Nazis were the Christians. Say more than that, and that's not. That's ignored.

I mean, yeah, you can sit and criticize your church all day long. I do today, too. But at the end of the day, the only real group that resisted national socialism the most were the Christians, like. Through the Barman declaration or through other parts of the church. I'm just talking in general. That's just one indication, like one little snapshot of the opposition to the National. Socialists I did see.

So one of the other books that I read to get ready for this interview is called Black sun by Nicholas Goodrich Clark Goodrich Clarke, which is about the neo nazi ideologies that formed after World War Two. So if your book talks about the days leading up to the decades and years leading up to National Socialism, and then during this, picks up the story of where the ideology went afterwards. And I think it was in this book that I read about the Rosenstrasse protest, stuff like that.

But there was actually, like, pushback from Christians on Nazi Germany because they were trying to nazify Christianity. It wasn't biblical Christianity. It was nazified Christianity. Well, they believed in an aryan Jesus. I mean, you know, it's just. It's just foolish stuff. I mean, and so, but this is. This is the so called positive Christianity that the Nazis emphasized. They called it positive Christianity because they were in charge of it and they believed in a harry and Jesus.

So again, it has nothing to do with, you know, what we consider to be biblical Christianity. But what you have to realize is that, you know, many of the ideas we have in our secular world today, they come from the Bible. Okay? They've just been secularized. Okay? So you can sit there and show how many secular ideas, even today, okay, are rooted in biblical thinking. And you say, well, so therefore you're a Christian. Well, see, that's what they're doing with Nazis.

But so they're very unforgiving with regard to Nazis when they make those types of statements that seem to be christian and it's borrowed from Christianity, but it's been secularized into their own worldview. Well, the socialists do this all the time, and everybody's forgiving all the time for all the things that they have done. Yet they don't call themselves christians. So I think that that's the better way to look at what's going on. You can show how, for example, global warming, okay.

Is an apocalyptic worldview. Okay. The Bible talks about global warming coming, too, during the, you know, during the book of revelation, it's going to get hot. You know, God's going to torch the planet and cleanse the planet. Okay? We have date setters now with environmentalists are predicting the end of the world. We've got, you know, five years, ten years, you know, whatever it is, okay?

So they are taking biblical, the biblical apocalypse, and they're converting it into politics, are converted into so called science, you know, all the things you need to do to get ready for the end. The environmental movement itself is a very apocalyptic worldview. I mean, they're always worried about the end of the world. It seems like the flooding of all the snow is going to melt. The earth is going to flood. Okay?

And so they're all concerned about the end of the world type of ideas, even Marxism and socialism. That progressive view of history goes back to the Bible, where we have the Old Testament and the New Testament, and that which is latest is best. Okay? Progressivism is rooted, okay, in a biblical thinking. Okay. Does that mean that progressivists are christians? The answer is no. See, but they're borrowing from the Bible, so they don't tell you.

When they don't, yeah, they secularize it into their own, you know, this world view of it all. I think I have a note written somewhere in the book that what many of these philosophical streams did was they took christian ideas and they separated God from them. They separated Christianity from them, cut them out, and then it becomes very toxic and very destructive.

Like, yes, we're supposed to care for nature, but if you care for nature without it being a divinely ordained command, if you just care for nature, then nature is obviously bigger than you. So you worship nature. It's like, no, we care for nature because we're supposed to be stewards of it. Not that we are part of nature in some fragile web. For example, for many of these guys, Hitler was a pantheist. I mean, nature was just God. I mean, that's right. And this is his worldview.

And so when he talks about God publicly in his speeches, it may sound sort of christian, but what he means bye by the Lord is basically this pantheistic God that he is going to be a man that's going to be used by the pantheistic God to bring about the millennium, the millennial Reich. Okay, well, that's another distortion of the apocalyptic worldview of christians, where we have many christians believe in the millennium, a thousand year rule of Jesus Christ on the earth. So what do the Nazis do?

They had a thousand year Reich. Okay? That's right. And so there you have that same progressivism, you know, worldview from beginning to end, and there's going to be an end. And with our plan, we get rid of the Jews, and we arrive in Utopia this side of the grave. Socialism, okay, communism. We arrive at communism, we arrive at a classist society this side of the grave. It's utopia. It's kingdom of God on the earth, okay? It's the same eschatological framework.

Socialism is more milder, but still, it's the same idea today. They call them the Millennium development goals, okay? I mean, it's all the same stuff. Okay? And they're borrowing from Christianity and yet the Bible, and yet they get rid of the stuff they don't like, but they keep the, you know, the so called husk of what's left over. Then they fill in the husk with their own ideas. And those ideas are always, according to us, our own thinking, this world only.

So they just kind of get rid of anything transcendent, and they keep within their own circle of life the holism. And then nothing can interfere. They don't want God to interfere into their lives. That's the bottom line. You mentioned Hitler's public speeches where he said what sound like relatively christian things, more or less.

But when you put those into the context of the totality of german intellectual thought leading up to national socialism and in the context of the people that were around him, in the context of the actions and the things that they named, the things that they named various aspects. So, you know, like the wolfs and panthers. And I think you even cited that they handed out oak saplings to the medal winners at the Olympics. Like, you talked about the oak symbolism. And when you put that into context.

Go ahead, please. Yeah, no, they. Hitler. I mean, not Hitler himself, but they handed out oak trees to all the gold medal winners of the Olympics. Jesse Owens walked home with four and. Addition to his medals. Yeah, a couple of those trees are still around. I mean, they're, you know, they're. I think one of one is in Ohio, I think. I can't remember exactly, but, yeah, so, yeah, they. Glenn Morris was another guy that, you know, I think he won a gold medal and he went home with one.

And so, yeah, I mean, they believed there's something, you know, something spiritual about them. Oak trees, which goes back to pagan times. I mean, basically, my view is that national socialism was a like a baelistic fertility cult brought up to date, dressed up in science, but it's the same stuff. So, yeah, how do we make nature fertile so, you know, so that, you know, things are good from a human point of view? And. And so bael ism what, you know, that's what they did.

They sacrificed people to a certain extent, maybe not all the time, but to some extent. And they had their own ethics based on. You treat your body harshly. The Nazis were into that, too, so that we can give fertility to nature. And there may be different ways on how to do that, and people may argue about different ways, how to do that, but that basically the same ideas, that framework is still there. So I'd like you to speak into something specifically. So we all grew up.

I certainly did, believing that the Nazis were the manifestation of what Christianity was ultimately about, that Christianity, nationalism and capitalism all came together in the Holocaust, this terrible thing. And so we must do away. I think I probably believed this on some level. We must do away with capitalism, nationalism and Christianity because of the horrors. Right.

Okay. And so that idea is just kind of out there in the world, which is why people who are on the right wing and who are nationalists in a good way often get called Nazis. Like, those two things fit together. So a lot of people have done a lot of work. Christians have done a lot of work unwinding those ideas to understand that. No. And I think this conversation will have helped them a lot of. No, the Nazis were not about these things.

But on the right wing now, there's a rising movement to reframe Hitler as the so called christian prince, that Hitler was Christian. He was defending the white race against the Jews, and the whites are the proper inheritors of Christianity and all of these different things. So rather than painting Hitler as Christian and being a bad thing, which is what the left has done for years now, there's an attempt to paint Hitler as Christian and to have that be a good thing.

And so I wonder if you can speak into that for a moment from the knowledge that you have encapsulated in the book and your other studies as well. Well, I guess, in some sense, my entire book has tried to illustrate why people thought that what the fear was doing was a good thing. And you don't think about it when you're there. It's easy to sit back in hindsight and criticize it when you're actually living through it. A lot of people did not recognize the problems, and.

And they just simply went along with it, and they didn't realize how bad it was. And I think a lot of things right now are going on that are very, very similar where. Where things are headed. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I pray I'm wrong. But right. I mean, when you're in the middle of it, you can't see it, and then. Then you look back on it, and then, of course, you can project your own views on that type of stuff as well. So, I mean, that happens to.

But again, this idea that Hitler is a madman, it just comes out of nowhere and takes over the country, like Germany. And then we have this world War two and the Holocaust. I mean, it takes a lot of things to enable that to happen, and there's a lot of building process in order to bring that about. So that's kind of what my book deals with, the history behind it to where. How did it metastasize something like this? You simply don't see books like this today.

I mean, they're not about national Socialism. They just don't entertain it. And the other thing that I haven't got into that we could talk about is that how, you know, really, today, Germany, really, sadly, strangely, I mean, you can talk about how unusual it is, but up to maybe 40, 50% of all the books published in America are owned by two german conglomerates. I saw. Yeah. Bertelsmann and Holtzbrink. And both of these companies, I mean, all the.

Many of the big names you can think of today, they're owned by these two companies, okay? And both of these companies were nazi companies in the 1930s. They were producing propaganda. They've had to make so called statements about this and that. But, see, I mean, the whole point is that everybody was a Nazis, see? And it was only after very few people opposed it as a. As a group. Only the Christians were probably the most prominent group of all that did it. You had individuals here and there.

Okay? But people, most people just went along with it because they didn't. They didn't see the problem. And this is always without a biblical worldview, you're not going to see the problem. Okay. That was another thing that I walked away with. I'm glad that you mentioned that. I had forgotten about this. That was another thing from the book that I walked away with, was the idea that there are similar conditions in the christian church today.

It sounds like, in some ways, to pre national socialist Germany, where you have people walking away from a biblical worldview where they're susceptible to many different winds of doctrine. There's a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, a lot of disappointment, a lot of open evil, a lot of open evil, sexual evil, war, all the stuff. And you have this evacuation of the biblical worldview. And so there's kind of this vacuum left for a lot of american evangelical christians.

And that really struck me. It's like there are some. And you have this. You have a kind of environmental vision that's kind of propagating out there, and you have the targeting of an other. You have the saying, this is happening on Twitter every day now you have this targeting of another. So it really does feel like I'm the last person in the world to say something like this. It really does actually feel like what you described 1930s Germany was like.

Well, today, I mean, like I said earlier, I mean, things are primitive compared to what we have now. Okay. I mean, so, I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, we're being surrounded by lots of, you know, propaganda these days. It's very thick. And so they were the, you know, they really some of the primary originators of propaganda. There's, you can talk about yellow. Yellow journalism, what we call yellow journalism.

You know, a lot of german influences in media go back a long ways, and they helped to propagate that, too. They played a significant role, maybe not the only, but they did play a significant role. So Germany has always been interested in what some scholars call soft power, and that's media. And if you look at, you know, some of the most important things that have happened in our world in the 20th century, Marxism, okay? That that was born where it was born in Germany, okay?

Hegel's philosophy of history, where, you know, that basically still dominates our world today. Okay? That was born where it was in Germany. Kant's theological nominalism, okay? That now that basically, we call later theological liberalism, which, you know, is still around us to some extent, but basically that was also in Germany. Okay. You have, of course, the national socialism was also in Germany. Some of the biggest names. Bible critics. Okay. Of course, Nietzsche. Okay. Heidegger.

Okay. These are very big names. And strangely enough, many, most of the majority of them are from Germany. And these names help to propagate this worldview that his anti God, anti transcendence, first of all. So the God they believe is a God that's not transcendent. He may be semi transcendent, but he's not fully transcendent. A lot of pantheism, a lot of romanticism, existentialism is there to use these big terms. Basically, it's this world alone and no outside God interference into our lives.

And we could give a big list of names of german scholars, academics who contributed, contributed to all of this. It's a big one. And there's no other country in the world you can even come close to those kind of names to have such, so much influence. You said something interesting earlier. How would it be possible for the best educated country in the world to do the things that National Socialist Germany did?

And it's funny because you can actually see that, yes, the best educated country in the world was able to pull off essentially an economic miracle coming out of world War two and the Weimar Republic and all of that to gear back up for another war. I mean, it was a very quick transition to go from the conditions they were and to be able to fight another war at least as well as they did. Yes, there's some truth to that.

Yes, there was a lot of innovation that came out of that time, but there was also a lot of darkness. There was also quite a bit of evil. And that evil had precedence with the attempt for 150 years prior to divorce various ideas from a biblical worldview and watch them become toxic in the process.

So the further a nation, even an educated nation, drifts away from goddess, the more dangerous it gets, because you have these unmoored ideas that then take shape in the form of technology, science, politics, economics, that really intelligent people can take good ideas, divorce from the biblical worldview, and make the ideas into something very, very dangerous. And I think that's kind of what you've articulated. That's not the way that we're used to thinking right now.

The idea that, of course, the best. Educated people are, they're naturally going to be the. The best, the most moral people. Like, no, that's absolutely not true. I mean, the worst of the worst during the Holocaust were the doctors. Yeah, I mean, you can sit there on cancer. I mean. I mean, there's a. And what they did with say is very interesting. The Nazis had all kinds of rules and regulations with regard to animal cruelty and animal, you know, vivisection and experiments on animals.

But they turn the Jews into experimental animals during the Holocaust. I mean, so they're right there. You got a huge, huge discussion we can have. And if you value nature over man, at some point, you're gonna start treating people like animals. For example, on some of these trains, okay, that they sent the Jews on this is part of the reason why I'm a little bit skeptical using the metaphor in industry, okay.

One of the most famous documentaries made about the Jewish Holocaust was it's all about the trains and showing trains going back and forth. So they made a big deal out of how it's like these trains are almost evil. It's like blaming guns when people are killed. It's a very superficial answer. The problems are much deeper than this. You have to answer the question, why were they using the trains to do what they were doing? Why? Okay. Why was the guy using the gun to do what he was doing?

And in our existential world or postmodern world, we don't ask those questions anymore. See? And so it's just. It's just a. It's just a real problem with this. For example, on trains, that you. You would have guys on the same trains, jewish people, stuffed in cattle cars, like cattle. And how many more can fit in? Well, one more.

You. You know, okay, but on the same trains, you had animals, and they had all these rules and laws about how you had to protect those animals from abuse on the same trains. And so that's the disconnect that anybody who is walking connected to that, working with that, his mind is already gone. There's no thinking going on. And right now, I'm watching what's going on in our world today. It's a madhouse. I mean, I. And it's just chaos.

And everything I try to do is now just increasing chaos because of the types of things that we like to do and want to do. But because our world is losing its mind, we're having a hard time just functioning on any kind of normalcy. So we're watching the world go mad right now, in case you haven't noticed. I mean, I just. I'm shocked what's going on and how dumb our world has become very quickly, I mean, to put it, I guess, euphemistically, we could say a lot worse.

I mean, it's just very foolish what's going on. And remember, we have texts in the Bible where it says, God makes war with the wise and he wins. And you have a passage in Job. Maybe we can conclude with this, because I have to go. But here's a good passage. As I have thought about this over the years, Job, chapter twelve. And we can draw some very interesting conclusions with this, some very important ones. And of course, Job's in big trouble, right? But he has some very important things to say.

So, Job, chapter twelve. We'll start in verse seven. Let me find the text here. And then job. Now finally, and notice it says verse seven. Here we have the words of Job. But now ask the beasts and let them teach you. And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you. Or speak to the earth and let it teach you. And let the fish of the sea declare to you. So there you can learn something from nature. Right. What are we learning? Well, God tells us next verse.

Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? So here we have. Even the animals know. Okay. Instinctively, God. A man does too. He just suppresses that truth. That's in Romans, chapter one. Does not the ear test words? As the palate tastes its food? So what are your ears for? To test what's being said then he says, wisdom is with aged men with long life. Is understanding with him or with him. That's God or wisdom. And might to him belong counsel and understanding.

So if you want wisdom and might, if you want counsel and understanding, you have to spend time with, you know, the God of scripture. Behold, he tears down and it cannot be rebuilt. He imprisons a man and there can be no escape. Release. Behold, he restrains the waters and they dry up. He sends them out and they inundate the earth. With him are strength again and sound wisdom. The misled and the misleader belong to him. There's quite a phrase. We could unpack and spend a lot of time there.

He makes. Now notice, verse 17. He makes counselors walk barefoot and makes fools of judges. We're there. And basically the news you watch the news is just a joke. I mean, I'm just shocked how stupid it is. And it's all public and there's no shame, just okay, you know? And he says here, and loosens the bond of kings and binds their loins of the girl. He makes priests walk with barefoot and overthrows the secure ones.

He deprives the trusted ones of speech and takes away the discernment of elders. He pours contempts on nobles and loosens the belt of the strong. He reveals mysteries from the darkness and brings the deep darkness into light. He makes the nations great, then destroys them. He enlarges the nations and leads him away. He deprives of intelligence, the chiefs of the earths people, and makes them wander in a pathless waste. They grope in darkness with no light.

He makes them stagger like a drunken man. So as people deny the God of nature, the God who made the world and all things in it, a hardness of heart develops, and that hardness of heart leads to bad things. And then maybe to those bad things and suffering, people can repent and believe in Christ and all that kind of stuff as we understand it. But then if they don't, the hardness continues to build up, and at the end of the day, the mind is gone.

And so by the time of national socialism, the mind is gone. And I think we're approaching a similar day if we don't start, put a stop to a lot of things that are going on. To watch an olympic sport where a guy beats up a girl in round one. Okay, this is madness. And here we are. Well, I know that you do have to go. Maybe you can just let the audience know very quickly. Amen to all of that, by the way.

Maybe you can let the audience know very quickly the work that you do and where it is that you're headed off to. Yeah, so we have been missionaries of the former Soviet Union, really, for 25, 30 years. And I've written a couple of books. So the one is on nazi ecology, and that was probably my biggest book that I've written. The hardest book I've written. I've written another book on the Hebrews warning passages, the book of Hebrews.

There's a big debate about eternal security, losses, salvation, perseverance of the saints. So I have a big discussion about that. And that particular book is called wrathful rest. And so we are home for the summer, and now it's time to go back, go back to our work overseas, and it's been great to be with you and very good discussion. Thank you for the questions, and maybe we can do it again sometime. I'd love that, sir.

Thank you very much for your time, your generosity, and God bless your travels. Traveling mercies to you as you head out on the road. And literally, I'm leaving here in 2 hours. I know. Real quick, where would you like to. Send people to find out more about you and what you do? I have a personal website. I mean, it's called R. Markmusser. So. Rmarkmuster.com. it's got some. I used to do a lot of writing and things. Things were published here and there on the Internet today.

I just don't have time for it. It's just too many things going on with what we're doing now. But now we Ararat Rainier east west fellowship. That's the name of our charity group. And it's arewf.org. and so we do work in Armenia, for example. We've done, of course, we do work at home. And Mount Rainier is my favorite mountain in Washington state. And now my new favorite mountain is Mount Ararat, nearby Armenia, right on the border. You can see from the capital city of Armenia.

We did ministry there for three years, lived there. We still do ministry there. And so we named our charity group the Ararat Rainier east west Fellowship. And so we do lots of work in the former Soviet Union or as much as we can. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Well, so maybe we'll do it again sometime. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the renaissance of Men Podcast. Visit us on the [email protected] or on your favorite social media platform, Ren of men.

This is the renaissance of men. You are the renaissance.