Tracy Stone-Manning: Promises Worth Defending

Speaker 1 0:00 Announcer, the following is a production of wild idea media, Bill Hodge 0:05 and welcome back to the wild idea podcast, where we are exploring the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. Andrew is pretty excited that we are going to be joined today by Tracy stone Manning. Tracy, as you know, is the new president of the Wilderness Society, an organization near and dear to my heart, and she also rolls into that position after spending the last four years as the director at the Bureau of Land Management. So we've, we've got a lot of ground Anders Reynolds 0:30 to cover today. Oh, hi, Bill. Before we do any of that, we've, we've got to address the elephant in the room. We've got an escalating online feud happening right now between two people who, frankly, need to log off and touch grass and no, I'm not talking about me and you. I'm talking about Donald Trump and Elon Musk, who, instead of soberly governing our country, as they normally do, are engaged in an online slap fight. If it could happen to them, it could happen to anyone, it could happen to us. What do you think would start a feud between the two of us? Bill Hodge 1:05 Oh, wow, man, you always come with the heat, don't you? Well, my first instinct is to say it probably is going to involve that sliver of the Mississippi River that separates Tennessee from Arkansas. This comes at a deeply fraught time from our relationship, because, literally, the weekend after we record this with Tracy. Our two teams square off in a Super Regional in the NCAA baseball tournament. So I think it could have something to do with me adding the fact that you were born in Tennessee, chose to extend your education in Tennessee. And so you can call arkansan all you want. But you know, I think it would be something around that Anders Reynolds 1:37 incredibly rude to help me like this. I was gonna go different direction. First of all, who pig? I feel good about our chances this weekend, and I noticed you didn't note that you guys are visiting us, right? You're coming to Fayetteville for Bill Hodge 1:50 that. Go balls. Go balls is all I got for you. I Anders Reynolds 1:53 was gonna say if anything started a feud, it would probably be me and your truck singing crash test dummies, acapella on and on for hours on end as we drove around Montana once there was this bull, Bill Hodge 2:08 please don't run his best friend Anders Reynolds 2:11 Anders and gave him lots of gifts. Please Bill Hodge 2:15 don't run off the listeners that we have managed so hard to build over over the last few months, but I Anders Reynolds 2:21 can hear them clamoring for Bill Hodge 2:24 more that would have there have been times that I have wanted to leave you deep in the High Divide country somewhere on the beaver head National Forest, hopefully to never be found again, but, but we digress anyway. We've got way more important things to talk about. Our own personal feud. We are super excited to have Tracy stone Manny join us today. As I mentioned, she is the president of the Wilderness Society. She spent the last four years running the Bureau of Land Management. She is, throughout her career, been focused on bringing people together to solve really hard problems. She did that working for Governor Steve Bullock and Senator Jon Tester, here in the great state of Montana, she's led big groups. She's led small groups, all to great success. And Tracy just first of all, welcome to the wild idea podcast. And so thankful you joining us today. Speaker 2 3:12 I am so grateful to be here. I promise not to sing, Bill Hodge 3:17 to have Andrew singing, so the last time we saw each other, not to just like, get heavy right away, but the last time we saw each other, we were both speaking at a public lands rally shortly after what is now known as the Valentine's Day Massacre, when 1000s of federal employees were terminated from our land management agencies. And not to just dive into the really hard stuff, but having just stepped away from running one of those land management agencies, how hard has the constant noise around civil servants been for you to hear? Speaker 2 3:45 Yeah, well, it's heartbreaking, right? It's heartbreaking for anybody who cares about public lands. It's heartbreaking for anybody who cares about our country, and it's particularly heartbreaking for me, knowing, you know, knowing the names and the faces of the people who have either summarily been fired or are waiting for, you know, to get an email that says you're out. These folks deserve better, right? They've they've taken care of our public lands. They're not getting rich doing it, but they've got sort of a good life doing it, and they're doing it because of service, and they're doing it because of their love of place and love of country, and so it's just really, really, you know, upsetting to see people being treated this way. It's not okay. Yeah. Bill Hodge 4:31 I mean, it seems like it's beyond those who actually have been fired, or those who've been the only known word I have for it, is shamed into resigning. There's the constant pressure of the fork in the road emails. It's 1000s of them in limbo right now, right? They were fired, but then a judge stepped in, and it's just people's lives just have to be up ended, and it's so frustrating. Speaker 2 4:52 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, even the folks who have managed to stay, it's really hard to be focused on your work when. You're just waiting to see what craziness is going to happen today and what that might mean for you and your family and your job. Thinking Bill Hodge 5:07 a little bit about the agency that you spent the last four years shepherding, you know, it's an agency that manages so much important acreage on behalf of the American taxpayers, I think it's probably the least understood agency by the average American taxpayer, but it's always been a target, whether it's the rules and policies of the agency or the agency itself. During your tenure at BLM, though your team put forward what I think is an important action that's what's called the public land rule. For those in our audience who maybe don't know the inner workings of the agency, could you speak to what the rule was getting at and why it's so important to defend, because it's clearly going to be constantly under threat now, yeah, Speaker 2 5:44 thanks for that question. I used to say, when I was directing the Bureau of Land Management that the BLM did hashtag all the things right? Many, many things were expected of that agency, delivering energy to the country, delivering fiber and logs to the country, delivering grass to cows and ranchers, delivering unbelievably beautiful places to go with your family, to find solace, to fill your freezer, to play. You know, it's 245 million acres, and that's one in 10 acres in our country of lands owned by all of us to do a lot of things for us. One of the things that has all along been expected by Congress that the Bureau of Land Management do is conservation. It's right there in the federal lands Policy and Management Act, lovingly known as flipma. Flipma tells the bureau to protect wildlife habitat, to ensure that future generations have wildlife habitat, have clean water, have these places in which to go play, and that side of the Bureau's mission had never really been fully expressed in rule, right? The BLM has rules around how we do oil and gas development, how it does renewable energy development, how it does coal, all the things, right? It has rules around all the things. Didn't have a rule around the conservation side of the work, and that's what the public lands rule is, right? It just, very simply says conservation is an equal among these uses, and here's how we're going to ensure that it stays an equal among these uses for generations to come, right? And so it's basically set up so that the agency manages for landscape health. And when you manage for landscape health, you're managing for family's ability to get out there and play and have a good time. You're managing for future generations to have access to things like range land. You're managing for future generations to have access to things like energy, right? And so it's about taking care of our lands today so that we can deliver this really complicated and beautiful mission into the future, forecasting Anders Reynolds 8:05 into that future. Tracy, I wonder if we could turn to your new role as president of the Wilderness Society. I wonder if you could share with our listeners what your vision is for the next half decade or so. There are so many threats right now and not nearly enough resources to address them. How do you triage? Something like that? How do you find hope? Where do we go? Triage Speaker 2 8:28 is the word I've been using that word a lot lately. So let's start with the good news. The good news is the American people care deeply about their public lands. Value them in a very intuitive way. So folks who are lucky and get out on their public lands almost every weekend, it's obvious, right? They love their public lands. But even people across the country who don't have public lands right in their backyard, care that they're out there. Want to get out there on vacation with their family one day care, that the country cares enough to ensure that we have this common ground to do things like protect wildlife. So such good news that that public support is there because that is what is going to see us through. Our job now is not to convince people to care because they do. I've seen it in the polling data. Doesn't matter who you are, what party you vote in, whether you're male, female, young, old, live in the east, live in the West. You care about this now it's our job to get people who care to use their voices to say to the very loud and in power minority, it is not okay to do what you're doing to our public lands. It is not okay to try to sell them off to the highest bidder. It is not okay to lease every single acre for energy development. So that's what we're going to do here in the next handful of years. Have Americans say you. No, this is not okay. Let's think back to the previous Trump administration, where, remember that President Trump signed the great american outdoors act, and it had, you know, as 100 bills in that act, and the sort of tip of that spear was funding the Land and Water Conservation Fund permanently and and fully. And Senator Daines said to the New York Times at the time, it took public lands to unite us, right? The Senate voted 92 to eight to pass that bill, because, in fact, public lands really can unite us. So we have to remind our lawmakers that we expect that unity, and we have to demand it. I'm Bill Hodge 10:42 curious if you could help us sort out the range of work organizations like the Wilderness Society engages in. I ask because I often hear, you know, why doesn't the Wilderness Society focus enough on wilderness and hell, I've asked that question myself a time or two over a few years back, but it seems the effort to protect public lands and functioning ecosystems requires a range of tools. Sometimes a designation might be the right tool, but it's not always the right tool or the only tool to accomplish the task. Can you speak to how you see the team at the wilderness study looking for the right tools for the job ahead? Yeah, you Speaker 2 11:15 bet. And first, let me just pause for a second and say, let you know how much I personally love, wilderness. My husband and I got married 35 years ago, right on the edge of the Bob Marshall wilderness. And the next morning, we put on backpacks and we walked across the Bob right we get into wilderness every summer as a way to sort of touch ground and remind ourselves that the planet and the universe is so much bigger than us, right? And we find our place in the universe, in wilderness. So it's personally, really important to me. I think it's going to be vitally important to the future as climate change continues to wreak its havoc on the landscape, these laboratories that are places that are not developed are going to be very important to learn from. But you're right. It is definitely not the only tool to protect public lands, right? It happens to be the strongest tool, but it's not the only tool, and there's everything from conservation areas that Congress passes to national monuments that a president can can designate, or Congress can designate to a really smart management plan for multiple use right ensuring that we we at The Wilderness Society can make sure that oil and gas development, while it still happens on our public lands, happens in the right places as it winds down to that clean energy future, making sure that clean energy happens in the right places and understands the full weave of the landscape, so that we make space for wildlife to be able to move back and forth and migrate so that we make space for people to be able to go have a good time, right? It's really, it's complicated work to manage land, and having an advocacy organization focused on public lands to help the government make those smart decisions with the backs of the American public is really, really important, and it's why The Wilderness Society, I think, has is 90 years old, right? It's it's why it's been going it's been going for so long. Because it really is important that this work gets done and people recognize that. It Anders Reynolds 13:33 seems to me that a challenge at the heart of any advocacy organization is that you are essentially politicizing that which isn't political bill, and I talk about this a lot with wilderness. If you squint and look past the ideologies on either side, what you find is a whole lot of agreement over the vision for a way a particular place should be protected or stewarded. How do you How does The Wilderness Society go about that work? How do you talk to deeply political creatures like us senators, while at the same time pulling the politics off of the issue? You Speaker 2 14:09 work in place, right? You work in community and two thirds, easily two thirds, if not more, of the Wilderness Society staff does not work in Washington, DC, right? We have offices all around the country that focus in community, lifting up local partners who do work, helping them do work, tying that work back to that Senator in Washington, DC, right, connecting those people on the ground with their policymakers in Washington so that those policymakers can be informed at a really visceral level about what their decisions mean. The public lands sell off is great example, right? We watched representative Zinke in a incredibly. Partisan, really difficult political time with the house putting together the budget reconciliation package, saying, Whoa, hold on, hold on. It can't include public land sell off, and if it does, you lose my vote. It's a really strong stance for somebody to take in their own party, right? And he took it for two reasons. One, he personally feels that principle, and two, he absolutely understands that his constituents would be all over him if he voted the wrong way, right? And so not only did he, you know, he got to vote the right way for his party on that bill, because he did the work of getting public land sell off, stripped out of it right? And that happened because for years and years and years in the State of Montana, the public has been saying, this matters to us, so our job at The Wilderness Society is to take that model and grow it elsewhere in the country, because people elsewhere in the country feel like Montanans do. We're not special here, right? We Coloradans feel the same way. Wyomingites feel the same way. Anders Reynolds 16:12 You may have just answered my question, but I Yeah, thinking about Montana, you've got public lands. Is a third rail in Montana, the way it's I would say that it's not quite in other places. And I'm really curious how advocates fall stripes like replicate that in their home states. It's a it's a wonderful thing that's happened in Montana. And, you know, I hear you say, we should, we should unpack that in other places. But how do advocates begin to do that? Speaker 2 16:39 They let their elected officials know it's really important to them, right? And for some reason it started in Montana. I mean, I, you know, Bill knows, I jokingly say that Montana is the center of the universe. So, I mean, of course, it started here. I mean, of course. But when people who deeply care about something go to their elected officials, and they do it consistently, and they do it over and over and over again. When the people lead, the leaders will follow, and that is what has happened here. I watched it 10 years ago when I worked for Governor Bullock and the Rotunda in the state capitol was full of people from all walks of life, practically shaking the rafters of the dome. I mean, it was so loud and so fun. People sort of jubilant about how much they love public lands. It doesn't matter who you are as an elected official, if, if you've got a pulse, you realize, oh, there's something there, there, right? And so when people, as they are beginning to do, do that all across the country, right? We've seen these rallies all across the West. We've seen phones light up. They lit up over public lands sell off being talked about in the house, right? And, I mean, phones were lighting up about everything. And somehow public land sell off punched through, right? So it gives me hope that there is the ability to have in our most divided time in this country, that public lands can still be the uniter and still be the thing where people look at each other across the aisle and in the eye and say, Hey, man, we agree on that. I'm convinced it is a very small minority of people who are in power now who are trying to tip the scales. We've Anders Reynolds 18:34 grappled with guests like Senator Tim Kaine and with former MPs director John Jarvis on the question of, is the best strategy for advocacy, a qualitative strategy or a quantitative strategy? And, you know, spoiler alert, it's, it's a mix, right? Is what they say. But I mean, I feel like you're someone that's done, that's had experience with both the qualitative and quantitative from both sides. And I, I'm curious what you think about what's that, that magic mix that really breaks through and gets decision makers paying attention? Such Speaker 2 19:09 a really unfortunate answer, which is, it depends, right? It depends on the place. It depends on the decision maker. It's definitely both, right? I've seen personal story, a personal story change a decision maker's mind, right? That qualitative, like it's such, it's so profound, that an elected goes, Oh, my God, I didn't know, and will change their mind, right? I've seen that happen, and then I've seen 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people using their voices, and I've seen elected say what's happening on the phones. Who's saying? What an email. So all you listeners out there, when you're being asked to call your electeds or email your electeds, Don't roll your eyes and say, That doesn't matter. I'm here to tell you it matters. I've literally sat in rooms where I've heard the elected person say what's happening. On the phones, right? It really matters. I just want to Anders Reynolds 20:02 go on record as saying it depends. Is not a bad answer. It's a very brave answer. And you're talking to the king of it depends. I mean, Bill knows this about me. When, when I do advocacy trainings, I I use the example of, you know, 100 senators, 435 members of Congress. That's 535 small businesses that operate differently, and it's up to you to figure out how that works and make the best case to them. So it depends. Should be, you know, tattooed on every advocate's arm, in my opinion. Bill Hodge 20:32 Yeah, I think, I think one thing that is a step away from it depends, one thing, I think is universal, is doing the work in the communities. You know, Tracy, you talked about how the staff of TWS is out in, you know, is mostly out in out in the country and not in DC, having, having worked for the organization, worked in these collaboratives. I find these days anymore, the term collaborative gets a really, it gets a real black eye from I guess I would say, particularly people on the left tend to sort of So, sort of throw cold water occasionally on collaboration, but I think that's where you can find that it's that mix of stories, right? It's a quantitative and the qualitative of what people bring to the table. You know, working with people who maybe have a very specific value that matters to them, access to range land for their cattle, or the person who can articulate just how incredibly impactful a moment or a trip, or whatever was on them, on public lands, and so I think that's where that rubber meets the road, and you can figure out the the answer to, well, it depends, right? Is like, what's what's going on on the ground with collaboration? And I know TWS is pretty rooted in supporting that work, Speaker 2 21:36 yeah, collaboration is a really beautiful process, right? It really is coming to a table and trying to find out what is the interest of the person across the table from me, and can we work together so I can advance their interest, right? And presumably they will advance my interest. And I've seen it happen over and over, and when it happens, it's beautiful, right? It's the thing that makes durability in these land management decisions. When a timber guy is gonna stand up for a wilderness guy that didn't used to happen, right? And when that happens, lawmakers say, oh, okay, like there. There really is agreement at home. Really what collaboration is, is doing the little D democratic work of democracy, right, bringing solutions to elected leaders to say, here's the solution, please make it into law, right? And that genuinely makes it durable, and what it also does is bring community together in a different way, like there is all kinds of rancor happening in partisan ways across this country at this moment. And yet, people who have been trying to get work done together for five or 10 years in tables all around the West. They still come to the table. They still are talking to each other, right? That is, that's the Phoenix, the ashes from which the Phoenix is going to rise. And we just, we can't walk away from it, because it is where a, it's where magic happens, and B, it's where lasting solutions happen. Yeah. I mean, I Bill Hodge 23:19 think it's pretty safe to say the there's not going to be encouragement around collaboration. And I think you and I are both. I think all three of us are engaged in the work of making sure we keep those voices united. There's been so much work, as you said, a lot of magic has happened. Maybe it's not seen the Senate floor yet or the House floor yet, but there's been a lot of agreements crafted through you know, you gave a beautiful example of the logger that speaks up for wilderness, or the you know, the public lands advocate who speaks up for the timber industries, you know, struggles to pay their employees and their employees put food on the table. It feels like we're gonna have to really, really work at knitting together those networks in the coming years, because it's going to be a top down as opposed to community driven solution, at least for a while, and I just wonder how hard we all think it's going to be to keep that together. I think it's going to be incredibly difficult, but I think we're fully capable. Do Speaker 2 24:11 you agree? I do agree. Leading question counselor, I think about when I stepped into the role of director of BLM and started to go around the West and see, see the work right, see what had had happened. And there was really, really quiet work that happened at the field office level that advanced under the administration that where people came together and got stuff done right. Like I look right outside of Missoula, Montana, to a place called Gold Creek, where a real collaborative effort came around, using Land and Water Conservation Fund dollars to pick up industrial Timberlands so that the BLM could basically stitch a forest watershed back together. And then the BLM went out into the community and said, Now that. We were beginning to get this land into public ownership. How would you like us to manage it? All that quiet, beautiful work was happening right out of the headlines, out of the spotlight of Washington, DC, that is gonna, it's gonna be the same, right? I mean, to be clear, what's very different this time is that fewer people are going to be showing up to work for these public land agencies, right? Like that. That's the one giant difference that is really alarming, that the administration is eviscerating land management agencies, crippling them, to the point where they're going to be able to say, Oh, look, the federal land can't manage federal government can't manage these lands. We need to sell them off, right? To be clear, that's what this is about. But the fix to that evisceration are for these partner groups to step up and collaborate now more than ever with the agencies. Right, for the backcountry horsemen to come in and say, we can help you clear that trail, right? And for forest advocates and timber companies to come together to say, we can help you think through what that hazardous fuel reduction project really needs to look like, right to do the work of government. It's horribly sad that that's going to have to happen, but that's going to have to happen in spades. Anders Reynolds 26:19 As you're talking, I'm, I'm sort of reminded about the fact that, you know, establishing a public lands rule is a sort of promise to the public on on how things will be managed. And when you write a forest plan, it's a sort of promise to the public on how things will be managed. And when you enter a collaborative it's a sort of promise to those stakeholders that, you know, the the management projects and the designations will unfold in the order that they've been promised. A lot of these things are, are profound promises to the public. And hearing you talk, I I feel like I'm drawing strength from that. Like, what what public lands sell off, what attacks on? You know, the Boundary Waters, Canoe Area, wilderness don't have, is those aren't promises, right? It's, it's yanking the promise out from under people. Yeah, there's just, there's no power Speaker 2 27:12 in that. Yeah, it is. It is yanking the promise from future generations, right? Which is why I think that people are pushing back so hard, right? To be clear like this, the Secretary of the Interior now talks about our public lands as a balance sheet. And my concern is that that balance sheet metaphor is about corporate rating of the assets, right, and and every step they're taking appears to be that. We want to log 125% we want to or lease every single acre that is available to oil and gas recreation be damned. We want to we want to build a copper mine above the Boundary Waters. We want to drill in the western Arctic. We want to drill in the coastal plain of Alaska. All of that is about stripping assets. And when you strip and raid assets, you are stealing from the future and and I think the American public understands what's happening, which is why people are so mad about it, right? This calm, this thing we have in common that we are supposed to be united around. All of a sudden, people are pulling things away instead of making promises about them. Yeah, Bill Hodge 28:28 yeah. It's interesting that that balance sheet that they they tend to think about only in it definitely sort of comes from like a share building shareholder value perspective. But they really don't care about the future shareholder. They care about, the shareholder of today, and really only a small subset of those shareholders that they care about. They don't care about the well, you know what the future holds, as you just so eloquently put. So you know, as we sort of run it up against our time here, I'm curious, can you share like, where do you go to like, whether it's a physical space or mental space. Where do you go? I think you may be shared just where he talked about, where you where you spent, you know, your engagement, and where you walked across the Bob. But like, what's a, what's a place that you you ground yourself in when you can, when you can't take it anymore, you got to turn the phone off. You got to get away from the monitor. What, what's that place look like? Anders Reynolds 29:17 And if the answer is the wild line podcast, that's fine. You can say that Speaker 2 29:23 I put on my headphones, I go outside, I listen to the wildland podcast. No, that's not Anders Reynolds 29:29 it, asset tones of Bill Hodge. Speaker 2 29:33 What I do do? It's also and it depends question. But let's take that question with you know that I don't get to put on a backpack and go away for a few days. I go to I'll tell you what it looks like. It looks like crystal clear water flowing over beautifully colored rocks. The sound of it is I feel my blood pressure going down so. Yeah, my favorite spot in this place, it's called rattlesnake Creek. Had an oozle nesting last summer. Is pretty cool to watch this oozle do its thing throughout the spring. We have this place because Congressman Pat Williams back in the 1980s got the rattlesnake wilderness area designated right outside of Missoula, Montana. And the place I go is a cherry stem into that wilderness, which, at the time was really controversial, right? It was the compromise that cut the piece that got the wilderness done. And that cherry stem goes for 16 miles. So mountain bikers are in and out all day long on the cherry stem. But it is. It makes for really easy access on foot or on horse or on on bike into this rec area. And if you really, really want to go and get into wilderness, you can. I did that a couple summers ago. Embarrassingly, after living here forever, I finally got into the high country of the of of the rattlesnake. I wanted to see the headwaters of this creek that gives me joy almost on a daily basis, right? And it, and the reason it's clear when it flows through my little valley that I live in is because it comes from wilderness. Anders Reynolds 31:15 That cherry STEM is a wilderness experience. It may not be wilderness, but it's a wilderness experience. Bill Are you know, my friend, your friend, Tracy's friend, Bill's friend, Doug Scott used to say, you know, driving the chair, Halo, Skyway, you're having a wilderness experience. It takes all kinds. It's wonderful, Bill Hodge 31:32 yep, 100% what a beautiful, beautiful way to get away and disconnect from it all. We've been talking to Tracy stone Manning, the president of the Wilderness Society, Tracy, it's just been such a an honor and a privilege to have you join us today. Our paths for all three of us have been able to intersect over the years, and I'm glad they were able to intersect here on this podcast. Any last appeal you'd like our listeners to know things that they need to be thinking about as ways they can engage in these pretty turbulent and troubled waters, Speaker 2 32:00 yeah, thank you. I want your listeners to know that your voice really matters. It might not feel like it does, but I promise you, your voice matters if you use it and like getting mad on social media is not using your voice, emailing your representative or calling your representative, or talking to or going to town halls, or, you know, talking to your mayor and local elected so they know that you're mad, so that they can say to the their federal delegation that, hey, my folks are mad that's using your voice. So please continue to use your voice. We live in a democracy that is of the people and by the people and for the people. And so the people are the most important part of it. Anders Reynolds 32:46 I can't thank you enough for being here. You have to say nice things about the Wilderness Society staff, but I get to say nice things about them. I work with them every day, and they're super talented, and they do hashtag all the things. So thank you so much for representing them and talking with us today, Speaker 2 33:02 they sure do. Thanks for that shout out. Thanks you guys. It's been a pleasure. Andrews, why Bill Hodge 33:06 did you never say nice things about this particular former TWS staff member when he was there? Anders Reynolds 33:10 Did you hear Tracy's advice to get offline? Bill, that was okay. Bill Hodge 33:13 That's right. Tracy, again. Thank you. Appreciate you joining us, and we hope all of you will join us soon on the next edition of the wild idea, or on Fridays pick up the wild line, which is also where you can download all your favorite podcasts as part of this feed. So thank you, and we'll all talk to you soon. Speaker 1 33:31 The wild idea is a production of wild idea media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds, production and editing by Bren Russell at pod lab. Digital support by Holly wilkoshevsky at daypac Digital. Our theme music Spring Hill Jack is from railroad Earth and was composed by John skeehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find the wild idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at the wild idea.com you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai