Joel Gill: Creation Care and the Common Good

Speaker 1 0:01 Hey, Kenny wine here from Little Rock Arkansas, coming to you from the great state of Arkansas on Lake Ouachita. And I'm running wild with Bill and Anders while I'm listening to the wild idea. Bill 0:14 Welcome to the wild idea podcast, where we are exploring the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. Today, we are bringing in the spiritual and today is pretty exciting for my friend Anders. We are talking about Arkansas. Anders Reynolds 0:28 Oh, hi, Bill, you sly dog. You the clever listener will note that bill didn't say he's talking today with native Arkansans, but rather about Arkansas, and that is because Bill is determined to destroy some of the fundamental myth making I've built around myself. Okay, okay, if, if Bill, if you looked at my passport, or if anyone looked at my passport, you'd notice, you'd notice two things, let's say two things, a devilish, handsome man in the picture, right? Okay, and a place of birth that bill seems, in my opinion, to be utterly obsessed with Memphis, Tennessee, because I'm going to admit it, that's where I was born, and it's also where I went to undergrad at mighty Rhodes College, which, like our guest today is associated with the Presbyterian Church. So yes, I was born in Memphis, Bill, you win. But I grew up in the Arkansas Delta. Memphis was where you did stuff. It's where you did everything. You went to concerts there. You went back to school, clothes shopping there. You gave birth there. Obviously, I love Memphis. I'm not ashamed, but I do want to note that I was back home in Arkansas in just a matter of hours. Bill 1:43 Yeah, but what I heard you say is, you do all things important in Tennessee, is that, is that? What you Anders Reynolds 1:48 said, You're putting me in a tough position. I'm not going to go there with you. Bill 1:54 All right? Well, you know, we are recording today with sort of troubled minds, as we both have so many friends that work in the public land space, many of whom have been furloughed because the day we're recording, this is the beginning of what we hope will be a very short lived government shutdown. Anders Reynolds 2:11 I hope that's right bill. You know, the last time we went through a shutdown, back in the first Trump administration, our public lands endured theft, vandalism, neglected roads, facilities, visitor centers and other infrastructure because they were left in the hands of an overworked and overextended skeleton crew. And that's what's going to happen again this time only. The difference is it's unfolding against the backdrop of a coordinated effort by this administration to starve and sell off our public lands. So, you know, for me, it's it's hard to think that our civil servants have been set up to fail, but I think that's exactly what's about to happen. Bill 2:55 Well, we're going to keep our eyes on it again. I hope by the time that this episode actually comes out, which is just going to be a week later, that this is all resolved and everybody's back to work, but we will obviously be keeping everybody up to date with that. You can certainly follow all the updates in the national news, but even on our wild line, which comes out every Friday, where land stories are the lead stories. But today we are going to have a great conversation with Joel Gill. Joel is the executive director of Ferncliff. We're going to hear a lot about Ferncliff. He's had a rich background that spans youth camps and cooling informative time at the Arkansas 4h Center and the Heifer International. Joel's sort of cultivated a very rich, full life. And Joel just let me be the first of the two of us to say, welcome to the wild idea podcast. Speaker 2 3:40 Yeah, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me to share a little bit. We're glad Anders Reynolds 3:44 you're here. Joel, I want to kick this thing off by asking you, what's in the water in Perry County, Arkansas, it's home to you. It's home to Heifer ranch, and of course, it's home to the flat side wilderness, which is currently the only wilderness bill to be passed through either chamber of Congress. And of course, Perry County is right next door to Pulaski County, which is the home of Ferncliff. Why don't you tell us a little bit about growing up there and let folks know more about your background. Speaker 2 4:11 Yeah, Perry County is a pretty special place. Moved there in 1985 my family was in Indiana at the time. My dad was a Presbyterian minister, and he brought a youth mission group down to Heifer Ranch, which, for those that don't know, it's a 1200 acre ranch that, for many years, taught about hunger and education, and hunger education, poverty, education. It's a really beautiful place. So my family moved there when I was six, and so I was a Yankee, you know, coming down to Perry County. So they, they looked at me a little odd, but they accepted me, and I had a wonderful childhood both growing up in Perryville itself, which is, you know, the county seed, there's, there's no stoplights in the entire county, still no stoplights. So it's very rural. And I think I've heard about 90% Of it is National Forest, the Ouachita National Forest. You mentioned flat side wilderness, and that's just a wonderful place to explore. And I was really glad that they've added to that and protected that space. And that's the Ouachita trail. I could go on and on about the Ouachita Mountains and this area. So, you know, just prompt and ask away. And I'd love to share more and Fern Cliff as well. Bill 5:26 Yeah, I was gonna ask you, could you describe what Ferncliff is as a place for our audience, what it represents to you, the staff and those that participate in the place in a myriad of ways, tell us what Ferncliff is. Speaker 2 5:38 Yeah. So Fern Cliff, um, you know, physically, it's a 1200 acre camp and Conference Center, historically and closely tied to the Presbyterian Church, but it's grown and to now. You know, we still host summer camps. We host many retreats. People come here from across the country for retreats, but we also have a disaster assistance center where we process, inspect and create Church World Service disaster kits to help communities in need. And we also have a nature preschool, where we have about 63 to five year olds that come here every day, and they spend over 80% of their their day, outdoors in creation, connecting with nature. So it's really grown into a multifaceted nonprofit, but very connected to the land, into the place, and how being in that natural environment, the benefits that that creates for people, both physically and spiritually. Anders Reynolds 6:42 So we want to talk a little bit about that spiritual connection. And you know, Bill, and I have heard you talk about creation care, creation care is a phrase that blends theology and ecology. Was there a formative moment in nature that shaped how you think about creation care? And could you tell us how you all define it? At Ferncliff, Speaker 2 7:05 yeah, I think there have been many formative moments in nature. For me, it's more of a culmination, as opposed to that aha moment. But you know, originally grew up in rural Indiana. Now that's mostly crop fields, soybeans and corn, but exploring the old barns, and, you know, just creating that relationship from an early age where you're just exploring what's growing and living around you. And I was given a lot of freedom, and then growing up on heifer Ranch, that was another very safe environment to explore the world, and then I just keep finding myself lucky enough to be back in these places. I don't know if it's luck or it's just what I search out, but you know, at Ferncliff, we are a Christian organization and faith based, and so creation care is how we talk about environmental issues, and caring for creation is a big part of what we do. And so we're not perfect, but we try to continue to push ourselves by recycling, solar panels, conservation easements. How can we care for this place? Why we care for the people that come to this place to be restored themselves. So it feels like we need to mirror the restoration of the land if we intend for this to be a place where people are restored as well. Anders Reynolds 8:34 I'm really curious about that. I'm really curious about what creation care looks like on the ground at Ferncliff, in your facilities and your programs and your land management. I wonder if you could just share a few more specific examples of how you've adapted camp life or conference life, from meals to energy use to recreation to align with the values you're talking about right now. Speaker 2 9:00 Yeah, sure, there's a lot of examples. We hope that anyone that comes here can see those immediately, like when you pull up, there's a electrical vehicle charging station there you see the solar panels that we have on many of the buildings that are helping both reduce our cost and reduce our energy use. Campers when they go through meals, are talked to about composting, weighing food waste. We have many of our facilities are actually heated and cooled through geothermal systems. So there are coils in the lake and in the water that are very efficient. And so when we make choices, we're not trying to make just the short term, what's the cheapest, you know, Styrofoam that we can buy, or, you know, we we make some real distinctions about what we choose to purchase, what we choose to present to our guests, because we know. So we have an opportunity for them to see that we care about this and that it's easy for them to do it too in small ways and in big ways. Bill 10:10 I think a great example of that creation care you speak of is your stream restoration there at Fern Cliff. Would you share a story about that with our community? Speaker 2 10:19 Sure, this is a project that we've been working on, gosh, probably about four years. It started with a conversation between some of our supporters about Ferncliff. We have, we've got a lake, and that's where, historically, Ferncliff was a man made lake with a concrete dam, and for we've been here since 1937 for so for over 88 years. You know that's been there, and campers used to swim in it. It's a place of recreation. We're built in the middle of four hills. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the four hills of the Ouachita Mountains right here and and every time it rains, of course, that sediment makes its way into the into the watershed, into the creek and into the lake. Well, the problem with that dam is it's stopping those nutrients, that sediment from moving down through the stream into the little Maumelle River, into the Arkansas River and onto the Gulf, it's holding everything back. So now that lake has become very shallow and algae has formed in there, we've got too high of nitrogen levels, and so it's become an unhealthy ecosystem. And so those supporters at that time said, you know, what, if we just turned it back into a stream, that's what it wants to be. That's what it's trying to be. So we hatched that idea, and over the last few years, have been working to make that a reality. Related to the stream restoration, I'd really like to talk about our mascot for this effort, we've while we were doing some studies, we actually found that there's a species of most concern in our stream. It's called the plains blue belly darter. That's the common name. I couldn't do the Latin name, but the Arkansas heritage commission sort of recognized that our stream is the only stream south of the Arkansas River that this fish is located in, and it's endemic, or only found, really, in Central Arkansas. It's it is a separate species, but it's pretty similar to the orange throated darter. So it's a very small fish, only couple inches in length, but it's absolutely beautiful. I mean, it looks tropical, oranges, blues, whites, and it's one of those darters that lives in the riffles of the stream, down with the macro invertebrates like the mayflies and stone flies and all those things. You know, a lot of people don't realize that a lot of these dragonflies, damselflies, Midge flies that we see flying around in our yards or near streams spend most of their life in the water. And I just think that's amazing. So we found this, this beautiful little fish in our stream, and so that dam is stopping that genetic material from moving down into the rest of the stream and into the little, Long Island Arkansas River, and we think our dam is the only one. And so by removing that dam, we can let that fish essentially move and occupy that habitat, along with many, many other species and nutrients. So we just think it's the right thing to do. The lake was the right thing to do 80 years ago, and now the right thing to do is to restore the stream. Bill 13:51 Such a great story of caring for the land we've we've all tossed out this term creation care a bit. And I want to ask you sort of about, I don't know if it's a contrast, but sort of, I'll call it a contrast between creation care, or some may put the label environmental stewardship on it, versus the idea of Dominion, which comes from the book of Genesis. I see this sometimes as an either or not, a yes and, and this is important for me to understand as it relates to the natural relates to the natural world. Do you Do you think there's an actual division among those of the Christian faith about that contrast between Dominion versus creation care? Am I overthinking this? Speaker 2 14:36 You know, it's hard to speak for the, you know, entire Christian body, but I definitely know it's a spectrum. Like many things. There are many that that do believe that, you know, the world was the resources are put here for our use. And I believe that to some extent. And then there are others that, you know, we need to leave it pristine and Exactly. As it is, and can't interfere and and I think it's really a balance of making the choices that are going to benefit both the ecosystem, the habitat, the environment and people in the long run, and not taking those short term economic gains. It's hard to well, it's easy to value what a downed tree costs, or the market for that economically, it's a little bit more difficult to determine the value of that tree if you left it standing. And that goes for all living things. And so we really try to think about that longer term view, because if we don't take care of the earth, if we don't take care of our ecosystem, it will cease to give us what we need. And so I think people spend a lot of time arguing about the science these facts versus those facts. And I think we need to say, you know, the consequences if you know this set of facts is correct, is are quite alarming, quite concerning for us. So what do we lose by, you know, demanding cleaner water, cleaner air. We may lose a little comfort, a little convenience, but we really stand to lose everything if we don't make some changes. And I think that sometimes people think you have to do, you know, you have to go really far and do great things, but you just do what you can. It may be as small as, you know, my family, we're going to start recycling or composting, or, you know, I think I might buy an electric car. Or it could be, you know, we're going to do a stream restoration project. We're going to spend a million plus dollars on doing a restoration project so that we can inspire other people, especially people of faith and Christians, that this really should be a priority for us, because it affects poverty. It it affects, you know, people, people's lives. So that's kind of my soapbox on that situation. Bill 17:21 Well, that's, that's beautifully put, and I don't, I don't want to draw out that Dominion versus creation care as a as another way to divide us, right? We need, I think, more than ever, we need reasons to come together. And one thing I love about creation care is, you know, it's one thing we all have in common, whether you carry a faith in your life or you don't, you're totally a secular, secular list. There I go, having fun with that word. But we all, we all have, we all have to breathe the same air, right? And we have to drink the same water, and, and, yeah, I just think, I mean, I think it actually has that idea of creation care as a chance to actually be something that bridges a divide, right? Speaker 2 18:02 I do agree quite a bit, you know, we, you know, talking about Ferncliff, and we host a lot of groups here. I remember one weekend we had just to talk, you know, briefly hit politics. We had, this was a couple election cycles ago. We had a group that were Democrats for Bernie Sanders in one facility on site, and we had the Republican Party of Arkansas in the same facility on the same weekend. And I thought that was beautiful, that we could be a place where both of those groups would come and meet. And I think conservation is a place where those groups can come and meet. Sometimes it's just using different language saying conservation instead of environmentalism. Those things can trigger, you know, groups that have decided that they have different interests, when they really do have some of the same interests at heart. And so conservation, you know, Arkansas is the natural state, and we can really lean into that. And I think that's where your quote, unquote, you know, tree hugger, hugger, more progressives and your Hunter, conservationists can really work together to make a positive change. Anders Reynolds 19:20 Arkansas is a great example of that. And I'm not just saying that because I am an arkansan, not a Memphian, an arkansan. You know, I brought up the flat side wilderness earlier in the show. And, I mean, it's a wonderful example of a someone who today would be considered a non traditional champ, because they are Republican, pushing a wilderness bill. And, you know, Representative French Hill is sponsor that bill, and it's a wonderful campaign, like it's a really wonderful thing that's happening to see, the thing our community needs is to sort of depolarize that issue. And it. It's nice to see that happening right there in Central Arkansas. Speaker 2 20:04 I agree. I agree. Friend, yeah, French Hill. I remember looking at, maybe it was a picture in the newspaper dedicating that, that bill on the flat side wilderness. And in that picture, there's French Hill, and then there's, someone that I know who was a, you know, she was a, an inspiration for me, and she, you know, is probably on the more progressive sides of things, but they were able to be there in that picture together, and that's really what we need. And especially, I think people of faith and Christians need to really engage in public lands. I think it's a place where we've kind of just let you know, let's let the scientists and the you know, for some reason, there's been a little bit of a block there, I feel, and I'm excited about promoting it more within faith communities. Anders Reynolds 21:08 I agree we we make wild places and outdoor spaces partisan at our own peril, because they're not partisan to begin with. Joel, I want to ask you, because you were sort of touching on it in one of your answers to bill earlier creation care often intersects with issues of justice, issues like climate displacement or food insecurity or inequitable access to green space. Does Ferncliff address those broader concerns as Speaker 2 21:39 well? Yeah, I think in some, some ways, bigger than others. You know, Ferncliff, we think kids need a place to connect with creation. And even even kids that are, you know, middle class or or whatever, live in our communities have so much less access, less little dirt under their fingernails than than maybe our generation and surely the generation before. And you know, people are going to care about what they know, and if they don't know the name of that tree or the name of that fish, they're going to think it's inconsequential and doesn't matter to them, and that's gonna have a lot of consequences down, down the line. So by giving kids you know, those that you know need scholarships and financial aid, and we're able to do that, that opportunity to you know, be away from screens, spend time in the outdoors, understand that it's not so scary and it's really kind of wonderful. I mean, you know, go to a stream and spend a little time looking underneath the water and imagine, you know, you're going to see an incredible amount of life, or you could have walked right past that driven right past that in your car. So we're giving those kids, those those moments, and for me, those were moments where I really do experience something bigger, something you might call God, and that's a big reason why Ferncliff is here is to provide those experiences for kids and adults to connect to, that, that bigger thing that's out there? Bill 23:28 Yeah, I think that's great, you know, I really think about, you know, sitting there, worried about parsing out, you know, sort of Dominion doctrine versus creation care. But on the environment, environmental side anymore, sometimes it feels like there's like this focus on having to win at the ballot box versus win in individual lives on the land. And I think the more that any of us can do wherever we are on a political spectrum, wherever we are on a faith spectrum, that if we're actually thinking about what we're doing to impact people's lives, as opposed to the body politic. And obviously humans make up the body politic. But like, I think it's really important for us to quit thinking about it in and I get guilty of this because I had such a background in sports, but I get caught up in, like a zero sum game. Somebody has to win, somebody has to lose. And I think, I think that's just a really fraught with peril when it comes to the natural world, because we can't live without the natural world, right? We can't live without the clean air we breathe, the clean water that gives us sustenance. I mean, it's just such an important thing to Speaker 2 24:33 consider it is, and in drawing those connections and to help kids and adults see that it's all connected. Is really important. I know, you know, I want to go back to the Dominion piece, because I think I can speak a little bit to that. So that's from Genesis. But there's also another scripture from Genesis that I have really taken. Taken two, which is Genesis 219, through 20. And this is where Adam, you've got Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. And God brings all the animals to Adam, you know, you can imagine, as far as you can see, just this line of animals, and says, name them. And he gives Adam the responsibility to name all the animals. And what I think God was doing there was creating a relationship between Adam and the animals and the creatures in the environment. And I think naming is so important, like when I walk in the woods, it can be a little annoying to my kids, my wife. I'm naming every tree. I'm naming every plant that I know, partly to remind myself, but it's kind of like saying hi to friends and understanding I know why this tree is here, and I bet I can find this salamander right by it, and that's taken years to develop. And so I think from scripture, you know, that was a little bit of it there where God saying, yes, you have dominion, but within dominion is responsibility and relationship. And you have to spend time, you know? How do you develop a relationship, you spend time with someone, you spend time in an environment. And so I hope we are able to provide that for people. Anders Reynolds 26:27 I've noticed you touch on this a few times, Joel, and I really appreciate it that I think I've been thinking about. I've said things like, we need to be careful the way we use these resources, right? Like the way we use them, and I've noticed that you have said, well, of course, we're going to use them. Using them is okay. It's exploitation that is out of balance. And in fact, good use is a sort of a natural, balanced way to interact with the world, right? Like naming things, right? It's not exploitative, it's relational, right? And I've really appreciated that view that I've heard and some of your answers today, yeah. Speaker 2 27:09 Well, thank you. And I think that comes from faith language, so I think that kind of lends to that. You know, it's okay to make money from natural products, right? That is, that is okay. It's, it's like you said, when it gets out of balance and you're exploiting and trading in those short term gains for long term consequences. But, you know, it's a big, complicated world. You know, a lot of people just hoping they they get theirs, and by trying to grab for yours, you're not thinking about the consequences of what's downstream. We're all neighbors, and that includes plants and animals as well. That's how I look like to look at it. Bill 27:58 You talked about the the preschool component at Ferncliff. Can you talk and you talk about how, I think you said 80% of the time those those kids are outside, which I think is just so incredibly important. Could you talk a little bit more about, like, what their day is, like, how, how that learning is structured in an outdoor environment? Speaker 2 28:16 Yeah, I'll do my best. You know, you should have another podcast with Rachel Parker, our nature preschool director, she is amazing when it comes to the work that she's doing with with kids in nature. It's been recognized by the Arkansas State Board of Education. Is really, I think, a national leader in this type of work, and we're so glad to be able to support her and give her a place to really live out her mission, because it works with ours. So, yeah, these we started in 2016 we had, I think we had 18 kiddos, you know, we hired her, you know, without any kids signed up and just said, You know what? We believe in her, and we believe that this fits with Ferncliff. And now it's grown to where we're hosting over 60 kids, three to five year olds and so, so their day, you know, they they show up like any kid does at preschool, dropped off by their parents. The facility that they have is actually an eco we call it the Eco center. It's a straw bale constructed building. It's about 6000 square feet, 1200 straw bales. And so each you know, 12 kids are in a classroom. They go inside to wash their hands and to put their nap mat, and then they come right back outside. They have a small play yard just to kind of collect the kids, until they're all there. Then they grab their wagon. They've got, kind of these off road wagons with all their supplies, and they go out to an outdoor classroom area in the beginning of the semester, they tie some marking tape, you know, maybe it's a 200 feet by 200 feet natural space, and they teach those kids, these are the boundaries. You can do anything within this space. And then once the kids learn. Those boundaries, they take the tape down, and the kids don't leave it doesn't have to be fenced. They don't have to be in the walls. You know, we're also able, because we have 1200 acres, those kids can take field trips to other places. They can go, let's go. We're going to spend our morning at the stream, or we're going to go to the small and we've got a small farm, garden, farm, they will come back. They'll have, like, a little snack time. And this is so cool, you'll see three year olds sitting on a blanket, you know, 12 of them with two teachers and helping serve each other warm tea like, and some of this is hot, you know, and they help start the fire. It's not a no, no, stay back. Fire is bad. It's, this is how we approach a fire. This is the distance we need to have. It's, it's, it's a little bit of risk. And I think kids really need that. You know, it's not all about the A's, B's and C's. It's about their motor development. It's about learning how to empathize with another person who's doing something that you don't like. But what our teachers do is they don't do things for the children. If the if their shoe comes untied, you will not see our teacher, which you think, oh, you should help them. You should take their jacket on and off. No, we kind of coach them through it, because expanding their independence is a huge part of the program. We use, sort of the philosophy of emergent education, which is, what do you see? You know, let's go out here and, wow, we found, you know, a snake skin. Let's go back and let now, let's look at this booklet that tells us we can actually determine the type of a snake from the skin itself. And let's learn about that and learn about the letter S, you know what? You know that is what I think so cool. And this program has influenced our summer camp. It's influenced our retreat season, because we're finding, you know, those elements for those three to five year olds, they work for 30 and 50 year olds as well. Anders Reynolds 32:16 Joel, it seems like this program and some other programs you've mentioned at Ferncliff are less about modeling practices that individuals or congregations can take home, and more about cultivating a shift in mindset. Do I have that right? Speaker 2 32:36 Yeah, you know, I think we hope it's a little bit of both, but it's definitely more about planting that seed that's going to provide that mindset that you take into everything that you do. And that's what I think you know coming here from, you know, I used used to teach environmental education, outdoor education, but the one thing I couldn't get to, working for the state, which was fine, and it's appropriate, in my opinion, I couldn't get to faith and spirituality. So being at a Christian organization allows me to take one more step for those people that that's, you know, how they connect to nature, and for those that don't, we serve many groups that don't have a faith perspective, but that doesn't mean they're not still getting the benefits of being in a wild space. Bill 33:25 So Joel, the day after this episode comes out, so on October 8, Ferncliff is going to be hosting a gathering entitled sacred creation. Justice flows down like water. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about who's driving this gathering and what do you hope participants will get out of this event? Speaker 2 33:43 Sure, this is the annual conference for Presbyterians for Earth care. So within the Presbyterian denomination, you know, the PC USA, they have a formal group, and they get together and meet and talk about faith and in nature and environmentalism. So we were really excited to be able to host this. We feel like this. These are our people, and so they're going to be here. We're bringing in different speakers workshops. I'm leading several on the stream restoration. We're bringing in scientists and biologists to show them what is actually in this stream, so they can see those organisms and really understand why we're doing this project. So it's just a great example of a denomination or a group of people that connect to their faith primarily through their relationship with nature. And so I think there's a lot more out there, not just in the Presbyterian denomination. And so kind of wanting to shake the tree and wake up these mainline denominations and say it's okay to say that this is a part of your faith. You know the stories that you've learned? Bren in the pews of the church in Sunday school, those are very important and foundational. But if you ask a bunch of pastors or even people that faith is significant for them, where they've had some of their most significant faith experiences, a lot of times it's camp and conference centers, because they're given that space. They're not confined in this, you know, what their parents have told them to really choose it for themselves and to, you know, be out there, you know, hearing the frogs croak and the birds make their calls. There's just something about that that sort of awakens that spiritual side, at least for me, Wow. Bill 35:40 Well, I'm excited to hear any kind of report out of that event that we can get. And Joel, it's just been so great having you on here. We have been talking with Joel Gill. He's the Executive Director of Ferncliff. I know it's been a special day for Anders. I think I can put it this way. I think he's enjoyed that we have been wallering in all that is the best of Arkansas. And Joel, I just can't think enough. This has been enlightening. I've always been interested in exploring this sort of tension or complimentary component of Dominion versus creation care. I certainly love the expression creation care. So Thanks for Thanks for being here with us today. Speaker 2 36:16 I was glad to be here, Bill. I was glad to Waller in here with you in Anders. I think that was a really appropriate Arkansas term. We it is a Waller in, it's been a Anders Reynolds 36:26 great Waller In, Joe, thank you so much for jumping in with us. We really, really appreciate you. Thanks for coming on the show. Unknown Speaker 36:34 Yeah, of course. Thank you Bill 36:35 coming up on the wild idea podcast, conversations on the recreation profession, the ethics of species recovery and management, and we dig into conservation at scale, but on the back of private resources, if you like the podcast, we hope you'll do two things besides subscribing, give us a review in your favorite podcast app, and we hope you'll take a minute to recommend this to a friend or colleague. Hell, even send them a link. And if you want to go deeper in what we're doing here, sign up for our newsletter at the wild idea.com we look forward to seeing all of you on down the trail. Speaker 3 37:09 The wild idea is a production of wild idea media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at podlad Digital, support by Holly wilkeshevsky At day pack digital our theme music Spring Hill Jack is from railroad Earth and was composed by John skihan. Our executive producer and ring leader is Laura Hodge. You can find the wild idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at the wild idea.com you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai