Conrad Anker: Mountains of Perspective

Speaker 1 0:00 ANNOUNCER. The following is a production of wild idea media. Bill Hodge 0:05 Welcome to the wild idea podcast, exploring the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. Exploring is a keyword for this episode, as we will be talking with one of the world's great explorers, Conrad Anker. Conrad and I met over 10 years ago at the White House, and then had a chance to talk a few years ago for another podcast. But I am particularly excited for this conversation. And first, let me say, welcome back, Anders. As we are recording this, you have just returned from Spain. Anders Reynolds 0:34 Hola. Bill, that's right, I am freshly returned from 10 days in Spain. It was a very nice vacation, but to be honest, it was a trip with more than the usual number of false starts and dead ends and missed chances and blind alleyways. But mazes are famously full of cheese, and now so am I full of cheese stuffed with jamone, and when I sweat, it still smells a little like vermouth. So you know, as you can see, I am tanned to an enviable golden brown. What's the worst sunburn you've ever had? Bill Hodge 1:11 Bill Oh, wow, probably, probably somewhere here in Montana, at this latitude, getting out there and forgetting the sunscreen can happen, but if you do, you pay the price for it. That's for sure. I don't know. I can't say when my worst sunburn was. Well, if you follow mountain climbing at all, our guest needs no introduction. If you've been to an outdoor Film Festival in the last two decades, he also needs no introduction. He's one of the world's leading high altitude climbers who became a household name when he discovered George Mallory's body on Mount Everest, he is someone who has leaned into his public recognition to do some real good in the world. Conrad, it is just an honor to have you join us on the wild idea podcast. Thank Conrad Anker 1:54 you Bill and thank you Anders, and a real honor to be here and thank you listeners for tuning in. Bill Hodge 1:59 Conrad, when we first met, you were hosting a round table of those working to create a new generation of conservation leaders at the White House. So surprisingly, I'm not going to start with a question about being kind of out there, up in the up in the high altitudes, but rather a question about celebrity, when or maybe how did you recognize the moment to use, dare I say, your fame to elevate issues and the people that are doing important work for conservation, Conrad Anker 2:26 probably the inspiration came from my father. So my family's from Tuolumne County, and after he retired, he was really active in keeping a dam off the South Fork of the Tuolumne River in central California, so the clavi fork. So he was, he put, he leaned into that. And throughout my upbringing, he was always cared about doing the right thing, and was active, whether it was in social issues or and environmental issues. So it was a great role model that my father was. Bill Hodge 3:04 You know, I've followed you for years through the films and through your social media and other places, and I've noted, I guess I would say, of late, you reflecting a bit on what Everest has become, the ecological impacts humans are having. I've watched Jon Krakauer join you in that sort of reflection, I wonder, for our audience, would you talk about the balancing act of our human desire to reach the unattainable with what we might do in reaching that pinnacle? Conrad Anker 3:34 Everest is unique in that it is the world's highest peak. So there is only one, and people are drawn to it. And when I started climbing, it was sort of the 1975 ascent, going back 50 years. At the Southwest face of Everest was sort of the pinnacle of climbing. And then in the 90s, with the advent of commercial guiding, Everest changed, and it people sought to climb Everest for their own personal reasons, which we all do, but it became attainable to people outside the dedicated climbing fold, and this is a large part to the people of Nepal, specifically the Sherpa, People that work on the mountain, and they've been able to build an infrastructure with fixed ropes, established camps, plenty of supplemental oxygen, and with that, getting people to the summit of the mountain and back safely. Anders Reynolds 4:36 Conrad, thanks so much for being here. Speaking of Everest, I have a million questions for you about the George Mallory expedition, but to spare you and our listeners, I think I'm gonna focus on some of your reflections about his gear and his resolve in these harsh conditions you're talking about so building on some quotes of yours that. Read about how climbing with minimal gear, or even leaving behind technology altogether, can help us rediscover adventure. How have your own travels and climbs shaped your sense of humility in the face of nature and what do you think wild unpredictable environments reveal about our most fundamental human traits, like resilience, or, you know, other true parts of ourselves. Conrad Anker 5:28 Yeah, great question. I started out getting into the outdoors at a very young age, and through my parents, and that was my dad was a climber, and so that's what we did every summer. We'd spend two weeks in the Sierra High Country, traversing the crest of Sierras, either from Highway 108 to 120 which is north to south, or from 120 to 108 which is south to north. And so we'd do that trek, and my grandfather and grandmother would drop us off and then pick us up with it. And I quickly realized that this was where my happy place was. And at age 14, I I was like, well, whatever I do, I just need to find work that allows me to spend as much time outdoors. And that sense has been with me ever since, and part of that is the manner in which we as participants, communicate with other humans. And so when we go out on an adventure, whether it's climbing a mountain, going for a hike, doing something scenic, nature, while it's there to appreciate us, it also has the upper hand. It is stronger than we are. And so the adversary is not Anders and Bill and a set of rules and a game and a referee and a ball. Rather, it's the weather, whether it's too hot or too cold or too windy, all those things play into it. So we have to work together as a team to attain a mutually identifiable goal, which, in the case of mountain climbing, is making it to the top of a peak. Anders Reynolds 7:05 So to dig into some of those growing adversities, having observed glacial retreat firsthand, literally standing atop melting glaciers on Everest, can you say how that might have shifted your sense of responsibility, not just as a climber, but as a human living on this planet. What does witnessing such a clear sign of climate change do to one's understanding of that human nature relationship you're talking so much about? Conrad Anker 7:35 Yeah. So do you remember bazooka gum and the little wax wrapping papers and stuff. Do I ever Yes? Yeah, so, and they'd always have a cartoon in there, and I remember one that I picked up, and it said, how do mountains here? And it said, with mountaineers. And even though it's a dad joke on a packet of bubble gum, there's a lot of truth to it. And we are the ears and the eyes of the mountains. And so starting out my career as a climber, I was shaped by the Sierras, so that's where I got started. And learned that climbed Mount Rainier, moving up from there, and then on to Denali. And so Denali really defined that I love being in cold, adverse places, and then Everest was where I went and climbing in the Himalayas. I'd climbed in Himalayas for nine years before I'd gone on my first ever 11 years before my first Everest expedition. So it was but when we go over there and we see the state of the cryosphere, which is ice. It's dramatically changed, and we have a variety of ways of looking at that. Lake sediment, tree rings give us an insight into a changing climate, but the glaciers are they're quite literally a thermometer of what's going on. And so some of the first images of the Himalayas were taken by Vitor russelllla and his expeditions into the Karakorum and into the eastern Karakoram by Kanchenjunga. And there that we have an ability to have repeat historical photography, and we look at where these glaciers were in the turn of the previous century, and we look at where they are now. It's amazingly how much things have changed. And as a side note of that, in 2019 we were part of a National Geographic science expedition to Mount Everest and the the team that was doing the ice cores found that the youngest ice at the south coal of Everest, which is just shy of 8000 meters, 27,000 feet, the youngest ice was 1000 years old. So. So what we see there is that the ice is not being replenished, and it's melting faster than it can be replenished. And so we see images of receding glaciers. They're not as long the rock overburden is more prominent, but we also don't see the deflation of the glacier. So there, there's vastly less ice that's in there. And for some place, like the Himalayas, which is the source of five of the major rivers in Asia, it is the water tower for many of these communities, and that it is a low latitude mountain range, but high altitude, and again, similar to high latitude areas on our planet, ie Greenland and Antarctica, those areas are more susceptible in feeling the effects of anthropogenic climate change and seeing that in the Himalayas, and then also being connected with the people there, seeing how this changing environment is affecting their well being, to me, was a wake up call, and that if I have to get out there and share the news that it's not great news, then, yeah, that that's that's my mission in life. Bill Hodge 11:21 Yeah, I was re watching Maru for I don't know how many times, and for our audience, I highly recommend this film. I was thinking about the spiritual connection to place in the film, it's obvious that you had your own connection to the place, maybe fulfilling mug's dream of reaching the pinnacle, but you also demonstrated an understanding and a connection to the people that live there, that have their own deeply held spiritual belief in creation. And is that fuel, or is that just sort of empathy and a desire to understand the place in which you are climbing Conrad Anker 11:55 out of respect any place we visit, it's always the courtesy is to check and see if it's a climbable mountain. And mountains have been sacred in all the world's religions since humans began being cognizant of our own existence. And the from the Judeo Christian heritage with the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai, Mount Fuji in Japan, for Shinto Buddhism, the mount Kailas, the source of the Indus, Brahmaputra and Ganges River, is sacred to both Buddhism and Hinduism. And Uluru rock in Australia, for the Aboriginal people there as a sacred place. And then here in the United States, gray horn Butte, otherwise known as Devil's Tower, cave Bear Mountain, to the 20 plus Native American tribes that find it a sacred place. So yeah, and that respect for the local people and their how they look at the mountains is always is more important than what we as visitors come into the mountains for. So it's always the first step. And had we been on Meru and then we visited the sadhus and the matajis. The Sadhus are male. The mahatjis are female. The the states that live there in Gangotri, and they're part of the Hindu religion. If they had said, Hey, don't go climbing up there, it's sacrilegious, and you're going to upset the gods, we would have 100% understood. But there's this moment in Meru where, in the course of the climb, we went and visited with the one of the sadhus in gingotri, and he's like, Well, of course you have to go. This was, I'm paraphrasing him, but it was like, this is already it was destined to happen. Bring me a rock back, and you've, you, you have, this is your, your calling. And that was a pretty solid affirmation. And then we visited with this Sadhu on the clicking. Sadhu, he was one of the first fellows to pick up a camera, and he took photographs. We visited with him in 2008 and in 2011 and both times, it was like, do well up there, and this is your mission, and so be it so. And part of that comes back to how I look at our interaction with other people. And for me, the foundation of that is not, oh, treat people like I would like to be treated, because everyone has a different view on that. And some people are violent, some people are narcissistic, things like that, but rather, treat people as they would like to be treated, and that Take That means taking a step back understanding their culture, their religion, their belief. System and not trying to be a colonial or imperialist or some like this is the way it is, and you have to believe in our technology and our gods and things like this, rather that they've been coexisting with nature and they've found their belief system, and by showing respect, we have a better chance at being successful on the climb, but also less emotional detritus upstairs, like having to worry that, oh my gosh, if we don't succeed, we're going to be and we'll have upset the gods Anders Reynolds 15:37 your advocacy through protect our winters and the Greater Yellowstone coalition and other groups reflects the same belief you're sharing right now. I think that that nature shapes our values, but you've also noted that experiencing nature doesn't always translate into conservation action, as seen in some lawmakers who spend time in wilderness yet oppose protective policies. You know, what's your advice on how we bridge that gap? Conrad Anker 16:11 It's a challenge, and so thanks for bringing up protect our winners. I've founded by Jeremy Jones, and it's an advocacy group to give the tools and the permission and the responsibility for outdoor enthusiasts. And I preface this that no one's a perfect advocate. I fly on a jet, I drive a vehicle, I go climbing, just using the technology we have here for this wonderful podcast has an environmental impact. And rather than saying, well, because we all use carbon in some form or another, and we all consume plastic, that we have no right to talk about it. But rather, my talking about it today is through the prism of what it will affect future generations, people, 200 years down the line will be long gone, and yet they will come into a world that is vastly different. And we think about United States, our Constitution, we're coming up on 250 years, and the founders of the state of our nation, they were imperfect. We know that some of the you know it was not all people were treated equally, but they still were idealist, and they wanted to create a working democracy. And it's that same approach that, yeah, we're not perfect with our advocacy for climate, but if we don't do something now, we're going to we're going to be short changing future generations. Bill Hodge 17:40 Yeah, yeah, I've always admired that you're committed to, you know, Anders talked about the Greater Yellowstone coalition, and I'm certainly committed to their work, and others work on the Greater Yellowstone conservation and recreation Act, otherwise known as Geico. But you're committed to this work around the globe. Can you share the history of the kumbu climbing center and your involvement in that, in that effort? Yeah, Conrad Anker 18:03 thanks, Bill. The KUBU Climbing Center was founded by Jennifer low and I in 2004 it's vocational training for high altitude workers in Nepal. We're now 22 years into it, over 1600 graduates that have gone on to increase the safety margin of the people that work in the mountains. And there's not a family in the Kumu that has not been affected by loss created by expeditions of visiting climbers. And so we come in, we impact. We have there is a very real cost to our being there, from the sort of the natural sense the water and the resources that we use, but then how loss affects these family and so our goal was to give something back to these communities. And as a climber, that was with that, but interesting in talking about Nepal. When I visit Nepal, the the people in Nepal, there's not this, oh, is climate change real? They're this, like, yeah, it's very real. It's warmer here. The glaciers are retreating. We see the change firsthand, a lot of the land that the majority of Nepal sustains himself when is changed over time. And so I see Nepal as in places like Bangladesh as a consequence. Nation, the term victim nation, doesn't sit well with me, we don't want victims in life, but they they are suffering the consequences of our carbon intensive lifestyle, even though, per capita, the average citizen of Nepal uses far less energy than say we do here in North America and Europe. Up, Australia, the Mid East, places like that. So there's a responsibility that we have because we've made this wonderfully mechanized world with airplanes and cars and things like that, and we've created this problem of anthropogenic climate change that we need to address that. And given that in the United States, we've got a very robust university system, one that that champions innovation and entrepreneurship, that that we have it within us to address these ways and to to think into the future, how our actions today will affect those future generations. Anders Reynolds 20:47 Conrad, I want to dig a little deeper in this. And I'm I'm kind of just doing this off the top of my head, because I've noticed in the last two or three answers you've given, you've you've sort of pointed out that even people who love wild places often make choices, whether it's how we travel, what we consume, the policies we support, or the policies we support that don't always line up with protecting those places. In a sense, we're all hypocrites when it comes to our relationship with nature. Personally, I think something like AI is gonna make hypocrites of us all. How you've been like touching on the subject, but I just wonder if you could go a little deeper. How do you think we can acknowledge that contradiction honestly, while we still find meaningful ways to make a difference? Conrad Anker 21:37 The first step is awareness. So yes, I'm aware. I track what my carbon burden is on on air fare, I am like, Okay, I'm gonna fly coach, because it's it's less to it. I'll try to take public transport the best I can. I'll do my best to recycle. And we all have those steps that we're working to it. But the other way is that perhaps people are like, Well, yeah, I don't care about this. I'm not going to do anything about it, and so I'm just going to roll coal on the Priuses and be aggressive about it and not care. And so there, and yes to each their own, but that it does have a far reaching impact on on society and your local community. Bill Hodge 22:27 Yeah, I want to kind of take us to recreation for a second recently, there's, I'll just say, a rich and spirited debate. You know, I think for For context, setting for audience and Anders and I both work and have worked for years in the idea of federally designated wilderness in the United States. There's been this recent spirited debate around the efficacy of fixed climbing anchors in designated wilderness areas here in the States. And I can't let this conversation go by without hearing your perspective as one of the world's most famous alpinist about the idea of fixed anchors in in a in wilderness areas. And I'm just kind of curious, and not to make this a controversial episode, but I'd love to hear your perspective on that. Conrad Anker 23:16 Yeah, is a bit of a background climbing as you you'll lead a pitch, and you use your nylon rope, which has elasticity, and then you place protection. So passive protection is a stopper or a spring loaded camming device, and you can put them in and out of the rock without any impact to it. Fixed anchors are then pitons, and then masonry fastening devices, which we know as climbers, are bolts and those, those are left there permanently. So within climbing, we have a variety of different ways to interpret gravity. So think of it as a big tree. The root of it is we're playing with gravity, the act of belaying. But low impact climbing might be free soloing above the ocean, which is deep water soloing, so you leave chalk and a little bit of scrapings of your rubber shoes, and then when you don't make it, or you either walk off, or you fall into the ocean, sport climbing is the protection. Bolts are drilled into the rock. There's hand holds that allow us upward progress. We then use those as footholds, but there isn't a natural crack, and we need a crack in the rock or a pocket to put passive climbing gear in. So when we use fixed anchors, there is a bit of a permanent place there. So this came to the forefront in the sawtooth wilderness of Idaho. And so say, if climbers do a peak and they come down on the way down, they'll to repel, or you set up an anchor, and then you have to pull your ropes, and so you'll leave you. Um, two to three pieces. One, if you're running low on gear, but you have backups, you equalize them, and then those, those bits of hardware are left permanently on the mountain and that, yeah, that's something that, as a climber, I'm very mindful of. So whether we're on in National Park Service, where there is using of mechanized tools, ie, a power drill is not welcome, and then using Bolts is not is frowned upon. We self police ourselves with that. But then, by the same measure, if you look at El Capitan, you have to have, there's fixed gear up there, and you have to use it for upward progress. And the same thing with saratory, the iconic peak in Argentine Patagonia that was first climbed with a gasoline powered generator. And Cesare Maestri drilled a ton of bolts on it, and it really turned that conversation we had about fixed anchors, turned it up, and it made it a global issue. But if you're standing, say, at the LIGO Torre, which is the lake that's at the base of the mountain, you don't see the fixed anchors up there. You'll see them when you're on the rock and climbing them so but that's something. As a citizen of the West, I was born in the western part of the US. I've lived this whole part here, the public lands that we are able to recreate on and resources are brought to us, whether it's carbon based or timber based, they're very much a part of our culture here in the Western US and where we are, and the ability to today after work and before the sun sets, I'll get out and go climbing locally, is is is something that I cherish very much, and that is open to all the citizens and the visitors of Montana, so that whether you're fishing or you're hiking, you're climbing or skiing, those public lands are there for us to share, and if we share them and We recreate on them, there's a responsibility to take care of them. Bill Hodge 27:23 Yeah, 100% I like, you know, I've wrestled with the debate about fixed anchors, because, honestly, we put other infrastructure in wilderness places. A trail by definition, is infrastructure a place like the Bob Marshall wilderness here in Montana, we have massive bridges, but we make those decisions because we realize we can have fewer impacts by crossing the bridge versus people scrambling up and down the bank and create an erosion. I kind of actually wants to. I want to, I want to come back to the expedition where you found George Mallory within the, I would say, almost the perfect symmetry that your longtime climbing partner Jimmy chin, you know, finding Sandy Irvine's remains. They probably didn't have the they obviously didn't have the technology we have today to even be able to think about, how do I minimize my impact? They needed, whatever they needed. I'm curious just your thoughts on one that symmetry of you and Jimmy finding those two potentially first to reach, to reach the pinnacle, most likely not. I guess I'll be curious what you think about that. But like they didn't even, as technology has evolved, it's allowed us to even think about, how do I minimize my impact when I go whatever, whatever form of recreation it might be? Conrad Anker 28:33 Yeah, great question. It was the first of May 1999 that as part of the Mallory and Irvine research expedition, I found the body of George Mallory, and it was a very humbling moment, and that it was 75 years previous that he had disappeared on the eighth of June, 1924 and it's very humbling moment. And if you do this sort of climbing, you have to make peace with your own mortality, and you understand that we're here for a brief period of time, and that you can lose your life in the mountains. And then last year, Jimmy chin was on the expedition to the North side of Everest and came across the body of Sandy Irvin, and that it was Jimmy, who's been a long term friend of mine. He and Renan filmed the Meru story that he found Sandy Irvin. And it was, yeah, just a small world. But what when people had asked me, oh, where is Sandy Irvin? I'd always my thought was, well, he's in the central rung book glacier, and that that Mallory had arrested himself after the rope had snapped and he was on a snow terrace that below that was a cliff, and once you're over that cliff, the acceleration wouldn't allow your body to come to rest, and that Sandy urban had somehow been entombed in the center. Drone book glacier, and then for Jimmy, now, 100 years after their attempt in 1924 it was 2024 that they came across the body of Sandy urban was was amazing, and it's also a way that we can research a little science into it. So we know when they disappeared, if he had slid down the mountain and was in the central room book glacier, the 16 miles or so that that he had trans you know that the glacier had moved down down mountain in that 100 years, gives us an indication of the speed the glaciers moving. So there's, there's the story of it in the the mystery of Mallory and Irvine, whether they made it to the summit before Ed Hillary and Tenzing Norgay did in 1953 but then there's also, it's a reflection of science, of what we have, of how the mountain moves, Anders Reynolds 31:01 to return to the fixed anchors, you know, I think like Bill I, I have, I don't know I, if I struggle with it quite as much as as Bill I, I think it's more readily apparent to me that these are, you know, established routes, no different from other well designed trails that are meant to, you know, protect our natural resources from overuse. But what I want to emphasize is something you said about how there's so many of us that are sharing these same natural resources, and, you know, just a reminder to our listeners that that everyone sharing those natural resources, we're all on the same side, and some of the people doing the very best thinking about this, are some friends of mine, Jason Keith and Eric Murdock and others at access fund. And I just, I want to give them a shout out and say how much I appreciate their hard work, and ask them why the hell they haven't come on the show yet. It's time, fellas, Conrad Anker 31:57 Jason, we're calling you Anders Reynolds 32:01 so so Conrad, before we wrap, I hear you have an event coming up in Redmond Washington to raise money for the Climbing Center. Where do folks find out more about that? Conrad Anker 32:15 Yes, thanks for asking. It'll be the seventh of September in Redmond Washington, at a climate gym. It's with the Juniper fund. The Juniper fund is the five, one, c3, sponsor for the Khumbu Climbing Center here in the United States. The Juniper fund itself, the main work they do is for the widows. It's primarily widows of the men that work on the mountains that have lost their life, so they have a way to help these women and family get back on their feet and give them the tools to succeed. So the Juniper fund is with the Khumbu Climbing Center, which is preventative goodwill, and then the Juniper fund itself the aftermath of loss in the mountains, for instance, avalanches that they then they they're there to help out the families. So it's but yeah, we'll be there. And if you can stop in, click on the Juniper fund website, and it's $15 to come in. And we'll have a slideshow, and I'll be engraving yetis, Anders Reynolds 33:24 oh, man, we'll make sure we put information about that event in our show notes. Conrad, this has been a big, big treat for me. I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. I'm I'm so appreciative of you as a mountaineer, but I may be more appreciative of you as the mountain's ears. So thank you so much. Conrad Anker 33:47 Well, I appreciate it, and for all of you that are out there listening, thanks for tuning in. And yeah, we if wild places are significant to you and they're meaningful, whether you visit them on an E bike or a motorcycle or a boat or with climbing or hiking or skiing in a wheelchair, however you access it, give something back, help out these organizations. It's fair to say that we have unprecedented challenges in this as we look down 2025 in the values of renewable energy, preserving public lands, places like that are at threat and yeah, we you'll feel good with yourself. You'll go to bed peacefully at night knowing that you spoke up for places that you care about, but they have no voice, and so it's up to us to be their advocate. 100% Bill Hodge 34:52 beautifully said. And again, from me, Conrad, thank you for for coming on the podcast. We have been talking to alpinist conservationist and. Just all around great dude. Conrad, anchor, I want to remind our audience that if you heard us talk about something today, whether it's the Climbing Center or the event in Redmond Washington or the Greater Yellowstone coalition, we will have links to all of those in the show notes for this episode, so you can always go to the wild idea.com and find the links of all the things we talked about today. So again, Conrad, thank you, and we look forward to conversations in the future. Conrad Anker 35:23 Yeah, thank you Anders, and thank you, Bill, it's been great to be part of your show here. So yeah, there this a great way to to start our Tuesday. Bill Hodge 35:35 Awesome. Well, we'll see everybody on down the trail. Speaker 1 35:40 The wild idea is a production of wild idea media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at podlad Digital, support by Holly wilkoszewski at daypack digital. Our theme music Spring Hill Jack is from railroad Earth and was composed by John skeehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find the wild idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at the wild idea.com you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai