Anne Robinson: "Good News" Returns With Good Tidings

SPEAKERS Speaker 1, Anne Robinson, Bill Hodge, Announcer, Anders Reynolds Speaker 1 00:01 Hi. I'm Ming Zhe from Las Vegas, Nevada, and you are listening to the wild idea. Bill Hodge 00:07 Welcome to our conversations for a wild and connected world what we call the wild idea podcast. I am Bill Hodge, and along with my co host, Anders Reynolds, we bring a deep passion for wild places and wild ideas at the intersection of wild nature and human nature together, we also bring a combined 30 plus year track record of fighting for land protections and land stewardship, and today, we're excited for the return of good news, also known as Anne Robinson. Some of you may remember bonus episode way back on July 2, when we talked to Anne at the halfway point of her Appalachian Trail through hike Anders. You were, you were there in person in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia to record with Ann that day. Anders Reynolds 00:46 Oh, hi, Bill. Yeah, I was and, you know, I gotta say, I don't like this new arrangement we have where I'm not sitting right next to Anne. That was, that was a much better way to do the podcast. I'm really, really excited to talk to her today, but I have a really pressing question for you, Bill, have you? Have you heard of Elf on the Shelf? Bill Hodge 01:07 I mean, who in modern society is not? I feel like you're Anders Reynolds 01:10 an Elf on the Shelf home. Like, if there's one thing I know about you, it's that you like to sort of indoctrinate children into being comfortable with the surveillance state, like you're always talking about that you love Elf on the show. My goodness. Okay, here's why this is coming up. I'm it's the week before Christmas. Merry Christmas bill, Merry Christmas and, and I'm home in Little Rock and, you know, I've been making the rounds visiting my friends. They all have young kids. They're all utilizing Elf on the Shelf to encourage better behavior, except this. I don't, I don't know how to put this, so one of my friends, they don't have Elf on the Shelf. They have one that's, it's kind of off brand and weird. It's not Elf on the Shelf. Maybe you've seen it. It's called Hodge in the lodge. You seen this? It's it's kind of the same, but it's busted. The stitching is bad. It smells bad. It reminds me of someone. I can't quite put my finger Bill Hodge 02:12 on it. You are so clever. Anders Reynolds 02:16 I don't even know where I'm going this. I'm just being mean. Lodge is like, that's pretty good. Bill Hodge 02:21 I'm pretty proud of that nice, nice, nice try. And I'll quickly remind our friends that are listening today that if you took Anders literally on our episode with Martha Williams that my my rapt from Spotify, you're still on this. I'm not gonna let go of people thinking that my top, one of my top five songs was bad boys, the theme from Anders Reynolds 02:48 cops so, and I recall that made up two songs. Bill Hodge 02:52 Yeah, there were two of my top five so, but no, I've never heard of a hodge in the lodge, but there are a couple Hodges in this lodge here in Montana. I can't tell you that. Anders Reynolds 03:01 So, okay, okay, let's let's stop this. I'm too excited. I got to talk to Anne, and I'm so happy you're here. I want to use your trail name. I want to say good news. But in the spirit of the season, maybe we should say it's good tidings. Now welcome back to the show. Anne Robinson 03:17 Thank you guys so much for having me. I will say not to take us back off track. But you know, I've never played two treats in a lie with Anders before, but now I really want to, he Bill Hodge 03:29 would probably be really good at it. I Anne Robinson 03:31 think he would, Anders Reynolds 03:33 oh, my God. And I'm so glad you're here. So good to see you when we talked to you in Harpers Ferry, which, as Bill mentioned, is the symbolic, if not the actual, half halfway point of Appalachian Trail. Way back in July, we asked you then what you were most looking forward to before you wrapped up your trip on Katahdin. And I don't know if you remember, but you gave us two answers. One was the half gallon challenge and the other was the White Mountains. So I think Inquiring minds want to know, did they live up to your expectations? Oh, 100% Anne Robinson 04:12 How could they not? Oh, so I think I mentioned to you about the half gallon challenge that I would not be partaking, but I would be cheering all my friends on. And that is, that is what happened. I had a very respectable cup of ice cream. I did know at least seven people who threw up after the half gallon challenge. So I feel very vindicated. The ice cream was delicious. They actually had really great burgers there as well, which was very surprising to me. Great Park to visit. Anders Reynolds 04:37 Which Park is that, for folks who don't know it Anne Robinson 04:41 is the I might say this wrong, because there's a lot of words on the park name. It's the Pine Grove furnace State Park, I believe, in Pennsylvania. Really great hiking trails, really great cafe. You can do a half gallon challenge. They even have an inn on the property that you can stay at. Mm. Mind you, they're bunk rooms, so maybe not everybody's cup of tea, but it is a really beautiful park. It was actually really cool. If you go check out where the old furnaces used to be, there's something called slag, which is a byproduct of the smelting process, and it's this, it's this molten glass. It almost looks like obsidian, but in, like, these vivid blues and greens and like purples and stuff. And it's so, so beautiful. You can find it still in the dirt around these old furnaces. Not to take us off too far of a tangent, but yeah, so half gown challenge was amazing, and the White Mountains were stupendously beautiful. I'll send you guys some pictures after this is over, but Franconia Ridge was stunning. Wild Cat Mountain was brutal. Thankfully, it didn't get too bad on me. Only got below freezing a couple of times, and I was able to get get to the lodges and be indoors for those couple of nights, but very much lived up to their hype, and I loved it. Bill Hodge 06:01 Remind me on the half gallon challenge, it's a half gallon of ice cream and half hour to eat it. Is that what it was, Anne Robinson 06:08 there's not a time limit on it. I think the only rules are that you can be the only one to eat it, and you cannot melt it and drink it. Anders Reynolds 06:15 How many pints is a half gallon? Because I'm feeling like I could do this tonight. Anne Robinson 06:19 That's a bill question. Don't, don't ask. That's a bill question. I'm gonna let him have that one. We already Bill Hodge 06:27 had the conversation about what's an acre. So now, Anders Reynolds 06:30 what's an acre, what's a gallon? We don't, we don't know anything. No, it's fine. I know I could house a pint of ice cream, and I could probably house too. So I'm Anne Robinson 06:41 scrolling back through my pictures at the moment, and most people take anywhere from like 30 minutes to an hour to do the half gallon challenge, but the record setter has a truly stupendous timeframe. The record is currently three minutes and 37 seconds Bill Hodge 06:59 to eat a half gallon of ice cream that is insane. Anne Robinson 07:02 And that man that I'm currently showing you looks like he just downed a half gallon and three Bill Hodge 07:08 I remember watching a documentary about it through hike. There's another challenge, which is to drink an entire gallon of milk and keep it down for 30 minutes. In that documentary, it was pretty funny to watch milk coming through somebody's nose as they did not make it the 30 minutes of keeping a gallon of milk down. So no graphic Anne Robinson 07:28 here stemming from is that hikers get bored on trail at a certain point and start coming up with, like ridiculous challenges. I think my favorite one is only the 24 hour challenge, to see how many miles you can hike in 24 hours. I think that's probably the only one that I really want to take part in. But some other ones are, like McDonald's challenge. I think it's like you packed three days worth of food, like you saw by McDonald's. You get three days worth of food, and that's what you eat for the next three days. And frankly, that sounds heinous to me. Anders Reynolds 07:56 Sounds incredibly dangerous. I think day one would be Anne Robinson 07:59 really like wonderful and delightful, and then after that cold McDonald's for the next two days. Just sounds really bad. Anders Reynolds 08:07 Yeah, I'm interested. If these challenges are tied to boredom or monotony. Are they all happening on like, the second half of the trail? Is that, like your experience, or are they taking place up and down? Anne Robinson 08:17 I think they're taking place up and down, but I do you think they typically hit after the second month? Bill Hodge 08:22 Did you do the three state challenge? I The four Anne Robinson 08:25 state challenge. I did not do the four state challenge because I had no desire to hike through like something. I think it's 42 miles in 24 hours. And I said, that seems like a hard pass. And also it was, I was meeting you guys in harbor's ferry, so I wasn't gonna be able to do it either way, which is my reasoning here. But also, it sounds really miserable, but I do know several people who did it woke up at like 1130 so they could, like, hit the trail by 12am and then hiked for the entire 42 miles from Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, into Pennsylvania. Bill Hodge 09:02 I'm curious. I want to take you to the end of the trail for a minute. I'm curious about that moment. On top of Katahdin, I imagine euphoria or relief. But is there a better descriptor than one of those two words, Anne Robinson 09:13 euphoria and relief are pretty at the front of my mind, awe, I think as well. Katahdin is uniquely beautiful. It stretches out. The landscape stretches out all around you. It's but I believe the highest mountain in Maine, and I mean, you get halfway up and you have the most like every time you turn around, there's just insanely beautiful views. But then you get to the top and you can see just 360 degrees around you. And I got lucky. I got to go up on a beautiful day. It was sunny, very light, wind, so clear, and you just kind of like, like, I remember, like, I think I stopped breathing for a second when I saw the sign. And. Up there. And again, part of that was relief. I made it. I did. I did this thing that I've been dreaming about for a decade, but all is definitely up there as well. It was the most challenging and also the most terrifying hike I think of my life. Anders Reynolds 10:15 What day did you finish and how long did it take you? I finished Anne Robinson 10:18 October 10, and it took me about seven months to do. Anders Reynolds 10:22 God, congratulations. I mean, speaking of awe, I'm I'm in awe of the accomplishment. Anne Robinson 10:27 You're very sweet. It it, honestly, it didn't feel like seven months. It felt like an eternity. And at the same time, like the blink of an eye, like I would be hiking on trail, like somewhere in New Hampshire, and I'd be like, Oh yeah, that time back at, like, at McAfee knob or something, and I'd be like, yeah, that was like, you know, a couple weeks ago, and I'd remember, be like, Oh, wait no, that was in the summer, and we are now in thoroughly in the fall, and it ended up being, like, three months ago. And it just time gets really weird on trail, Anders Reynolds 10:56 was that sort of head clearing to have, like, time sort of become less important, Anne Robinson 11:01 definitely, to a degree. It was, it was interesting. Is a little befuddling honestly, but also in the kind of the most wonderful way. Yeah, it's been interesting coming back to the real world where, like, time is very strict and organized and you can't, like, the weeks, don't just like slip through your fingers, but yeah, so Katahdin was a uniquely amazing experience. Even it was, it was amazing getting up there, and this poor woman who was going up, another through hiker who was going up the same day broke her foot going up, she had hiked 2196 miles, and then she broke her foot two miles from the Summit of Katahdin. And then she hiked the rain two miles on a broken flood. Anders Reynolds 11:47 I want to revisit another topic you brought up in July, and that was all the ways that this hike at the time was currently challenging. Your idea of what quote, unquote wild could mean you mentioned the reminders on the trail of industries like mining and forestry that still remain there, and seeing old cemeteries or seeing reminders of communities set up by formerly enslaved people once Upon a Time has that sense of what the casual observer might call wild, actually carrying within it the stories of human experience changed since we spoke with you last or or has what you've seen since then only solidified it? Anne Robinson 12:35 Definitely what I've seen has solidified it. I mean, it was interesting. There is still reminders of the past, of people who came before us as I went further north. And there's also current industry and activity. The 100 mile wilderness, right before Katahdin, is almost entirely owned, I'd say, like I think 60 to 70% of the 100 Mile Wilderness is owned by a logging company who is doing current active logging. So you're constantly crossing old logging roads. You hear logging sounds in the distance. You see trucks go by carrying lumber. And in many ways, I'm grateful that they allow hikers to use that space, but it's also a stark reminder of just how fragile nature is and just how how quickly nature can bounce back, but also how much, how quickly we can backslide on nature as well. But yeah, I would say my initial idea solidified, but it was also interesting seeing the impacts that humanity currently has on nature as we progress along this journey. It was also really interesting, because as I continued to travel, I learned more about people's impact on the trail. Specifically, I listened to podcasts like the green tunnel that talked about League no trace, and you see it every day. I mean, you see fires smoldering still at shelters. You see trash on the trail, and the vast majority of people are really good about it, and don't do these things, but it just takes one person to do it, and you're one's more reminded of the impact that humanity has on nature? Anders Reynolds 14:21 Would you say that's like the main way that coming off the trail felt different than when you started? Or were there other ways that were just as important? Anne Robinson 14:30 It's a really good question. I definitely think that my idea of nature and how humans interact with nature has evolved over the course of the trail, and I do think that is one of the biggest things that I took away from the trail. Interestingly enough, I think the other big takeaway was that I think life is short, and I think that we should pursue the things that we're passionate about. And. That we shouldn't be afraid to try even if we fail. I know that I was terrified going into this weekly I mean, I spent a decade dreaming about it and wanting it so badly, but then, like, the year leading up, I like, started to kind of like, get concerned that maybe I was getting in over my head. And the week leading up, I remember sitting in the hotel room the night before I was supposed to get dropped off at the trail, sitting dropped off at the trail, sitting in the bathtub of the hotel room and talking to a friend and telling them how scared I was that I was gonna get out there and hate it, but I did it anyways, and it was hard, but it was also wonderful, and I'm so glad that I got out there and tried it, but I can't tell you how many people that I met on the trail who told me who were so excited and amazed at what I was doing, and told me I've always wanted to do the trail. It was this big passion that I had always wanted to do, and then just life got in the way, and I never ended up doing it. And sometimes that's true. Sometimes we get sick, sometimes we have kids, sometimes life does get in the way, but I think a lot of the times it's us holding ourselves back from doing these big things. And I think that that was one of the other really big takeaways that I had from the trail, was it's never too late. You should always pursue this thing, even if you're afraid to do it. Bill Hodge 16:17 I I really, really respect that you were willing to be so vulnerable about that night of sitting in the tub and being afraid of what was ahead of you. I'm curious, did that fear go away over a million steps, or did it go away in one giant leap? Like, was it just, was it literally the act of stepping over the threshold of that hotel room the next morning, or was it the next month spent in Georgia, North Carolina, like or did that fear stay with you? I guess to ask another vulnerable question, Anne Robinson 16:50 it was incremental. I left the hotel room that next morning, and my friend dropped me off at the arch down at down at the beginning of the trail, and I started hiking, and it was so hard. My pack weighed so much, and, uh, climbing up amakola Falls is a difficult hike on a good day, not much less, when you're carrying 35 pounds on your back. And I was supposed to do nine miles that first day, and I think I did seven because it had just gotten dark and cold, and I knew that I wasn't going to be able to keep on going. And I remember being so bitterly disappointed in myself, but also like trying to be kind to myself as well, acknowledging that like this is the first step. It's going to take time to acclimate, but I was still so worried that I was in over my head that I wasn't going to love this thing that I had spent a decade dreaming about. And then over the course of the coming weeks and months, that fear kind of slowly dripped away. We were talking about winter and snow earlier, Bill and it kind of It reminds me a little bit of like the spring thaw when, like, there's still snow on the ground and there's still chill in the air, but incrementally, slowly you hear that drip, drip, drip, as says, As winter starts to lose its hold. And I think that's a pretty good descriptor for my fear. And I mean, there were moments you didn't truly go away until the very end, because, like, as one fear dripped away, another sort of replaced it, whereas, like, Okay, well, I can do this. Anything that the trail throws at me, I'll get through. But then it gets replaced. In the last month was with everybody on trail is talking about, do you think we're going to finish in time? Do you think we're going to make it to Katahdin before the park closes? Because there is. There's a close date on Katahdin where you can no longer go hike up it. So northbounders have a very real deadline, and everybody worries about it. And I remember getting to the top of Katahdin and telling myself, I will never let anybody else tell me what I can or can't do, because I had people on the trail tell me you're not going to make it in time. You should flip flop, which is where you like, jump up ahead and then hike back south. Or there's a bunch of different variations of it. But I had people tell me to my face that I wasn't going to make it. And it it impacts you. Like, no matter how much you shake those words off, it sticks with you. And so, like, the fear was sort of always there. It lessened over time as I grew confident in myself and my experience, but it didn't truly fully for me, at least it didn't truly fully go away until I got to get to the top and realized exactly what I could do. Bill Hodge 19:36 So I want to ask you about community, because I'm sure community was one way that you work through maybe the fear you spoke of, but it's one thing that I know. I consistently have heard about the Appalachian Trail, and I have a fairly tight connection to the at and have spent years as a maintainer of a part of it. But like, how did community. Community for you evolve during your your journey from Georgia to Maine. And I have a follow up about that community that I want to ask you about. But like, what role did community play in that journey? Anne Robinson 20:11 Oh, community plays a huge role for everybody on the Appalachian Trail. The community surround you. It encompasses you. It lifts you up. I would say that the Appalachian Trail is wildly different from the PCT or the CDT in that regard, because the community is so close knit and supportive of each other. I know a number of people that I met on the trail who hike the trail, who through hike the trail every single year, and they do it, not partially because they love the trail, but a large part is because they love the community that surrounds the trail, and that's why they keep coming back. I made amazing friends that I am still in touch with. Jelly Bean I met my first day in the White Mountains, and we cheered each other on as we hiked up moose lock, which is like the first big test of the whites. It's known to be one of the steepest parts of the trail. I remember we were climbing down. They had rebarred these wood blocks into the side of like a slippery, wet waterfall. And we were cheering each other on as we were climbing down this and I still keep in touch with Jelly Bean. She is working as an ASL interpreter on cruise ships at the moment, and so we just had a call the other day and caught up, and I was on a call with my friend badger a week ago or a couple weeks ago, who lives in Washington, and we were talking and chatting. And it's these sort of people that help you get through this. It the trail is hard, I would honestly, I think a little bit it's trauma bonding, if I'm being completely honest, the trail is really hard. It's wet, it's cold, it's sometimes dangerous, and we get through it with the support of those around us. I do remember there was one night where I stopped at a shelter and a local guy who I think was very lonely and very bored and made a habit of stopping in at the shelter and chatting with hikers. Unfortunately, he got progressively more and more drunk and more and more volatile over the course of him getting drunk, and I was a little worried, but I also had three or four other backpackers there with me, and at the end, when he finally left, we weren't really certain if he was gonna come back again in the middle of the night while we were all asleep. So and he made some pretty homophobic remarks, so none of us were very comfortable with that so well, we're like, Well, you know, we're just gonna keep on going. So three of us got up, packed up our stuff, left and did a night hike to the next shelter. But I would have been far, far less comfortable in that situation if I hadn't had other people there with me and I it's, it's the sort of thing where you know that you're going to be supported and looked after. We were, I mentioned earlier the woman with the broken foot on top of Katahdin. I was there was me and another hiker through, hiker up at the top of Kat we were coming down, and we saw her coming up. It was toasty, and I and we saw her, and we, like, looked at each other and immediately made the decision that we weren't going to let her go climb up and summit by herself. And so we turned around, we hiked the half mile back up to the top of Kata and then summit again to make sure that she had somebody there with her, and that, I think all of that, all these examples, sums up the sense of community on the trail, sometimes you get in your own head and the people around you help draw you out and support you and tell you that you know what you got this you're going to make it through the community on the Appalachian Trail is probably one of my favorite things about about my experience. Bill Hodge 23:58 I love that I lived a pretty big chunk of my life in the other Appalachian Trail community, which is the trail maintaining community, and maintained a stretch of the the at there in northeast Tennessee for years, and my former organization still maintains that stretch of the trail. But there really, truly are, I mean, there's more than two, but there are two real distinct communities. There's the through hiking community, and then there's the community that loves the trail and helps keep it open for through hikers and section hikers and day hikers and the whole bit. I'm curious, if you think there's a way to better convert the through hiker into the future steward of the trail, there's a lot of efforts, and there's programs that have existed for a long time. Hardcore there in northeast Tennessee is one of them, where they take people who are in the middle of a through hike and tackle a big project for like, two or three days. And there's examples of it. But sometimes, you know, when you have a transformative experience like completing a through hiking. The at, how do you take that chemical reaction that it creates and turn it into action? Have you thought about that since you got off the trail? Anne Robinson 25:08 I have actually, I, I won't lie. There's days where I wake up and I'm sad for not being on the trail anymore. Sometimes I'll listen to a song that I listen to a lot on the trail, and I have like this bake in my chest, from like from longing for the trail that actually happened earlier today, which is why I bring it up. And in those moments, I remind myself that it's not an open close, this is not like a final thing that will never be revisited. I know that I in those moments, I comfort myself by telling myself that I would love to go do trail maintenance. I'd love to go do a long weekend where I work with one of the trail clubs on on fixing up a section of the trail. Or I'd love to go do trail magic, or I'll go backpack in the future. So I definitely think that there is a lot of that. I know a lot of people on the trail experience that joy in that community. We run into trail maintainers as they're doing their work. We meet trail angels as they're handing out trail magic. And I know so many people who have said, I want to do this. When I get done at the trail, I want to give back. I think it can be hard because not everybody lives on the trail. I think the people who live on the trail do tend to give back and join these clubs and do trail magic. That being said, I know that it can be hard for people to live further away. I think it'd be really a great opportunity. Trail days is huge on trail for those of you who don't know. Every year in Damascus, Virginia, there is a big trail festival called trail days. It's a long weekend, Friday through Sunday, and 1000s of I think, I think their numbers typically are 10 to 20,000 people show up in small town Virginia to celebrate over the course of this weekend. And it's every walk of life. It's the trail angels. It's the hostile owners, it's the thru hikers, both for the current year and for past years. I know a lot of thru hikers who have kept up with their trail families over years, if not decades, and who meet up every year at trail days to celebrate being a thru hiker and their experiences and their families together. I think that would be a really excellent way to get people involved. I think if you had trail maintainers there, or trail clubs who said, Hey, we are hosting, in four months, a long weekend where we are going to be doing a trash cleanup, or we're going to work on this stretch of the trail, I think that's a really great way to get a large portion of the community who's a little bit hostage in this town, like, have them be like, maybe do seminars and say, this is something that this is how it works. This is the stuff that we do. These are the projects that we worked on in the last year or two. And we really want to to include you all in this community. And because the people of the at are so community focused, I think that would actually be a really, really really big draw for people. Mind you, I actually didn't go to trail days because I was further north, and I was trying to avoid norro, but so I'm not sure if trail maintainers are already doing this. I would hope that they are, and if they're not, please feel free to steal my idea. But I think that'd be a really excellent way, because, because so many through hikers are so spread out with where we live, it can be hard to kind of harness that power. But trail days is a place where we all gather, and I think that's a really unique way to kind of, like, catch somebody's attention, hand them a sign of sheet and say, okay, so you're committing to this, you're gonna show up at this location on the state, and you're going to help us. So that's, that's my, the best idea I came up with. But I Anders Reynolds 28:50 just want to second this idea. I you know, if you live within driving distance of the Appalachian Trail, please consider going to volunteer for a day, a couple of days a weekend. You know, I'm, I'm familiar with a number of groups that do this. I mean, the main one is, is, is the venue through which Bill and I sort of forged our friendship with, which is the Southern Appalachian wilderness stewards. They're out there. Also pretty familiar with the Potomac chapter of the ATC, which is active in Rock Creek Park, but also on the at it's really, really rewarding work, and it's, it's a little bit hard, but it's not too hard. It's going to make you feel big and strong. And it's just, it's great to be a part of that community. And I want to ask you, having completed this journey, you know what's, what's one thing you would change about the trail or the experience Anne Robinson 29:45 that is such a good question, are you my first gut instinct is to say nothing. I I loved my experience on the trail. I'm sure, if I really dug down and thought about it, I'm sure there'd be at least one thing you know, what I do have. Answer I want, and I want you to know I say this in jest, but I want the Tennessee chapter to put pritties in their shelters, not in their shelters, but at their shelters. The Tennessee chapter, none of the shelters in Tennessee have privies, and a big part, a good chunk of the Smokies is in Tennessee, and it is a landmine. It is dangerous. You never know what you're gonna dig up. It's bad fish, because the smoke is, get such a and I get it. I think there's some law. You guys know the law, and, like, the weird loopholes and, like, stipulations that come when people are trying to meet the law in some way, shape or form, a and I think somebody explained to me at one point, and it was one of the situations where you're just like, Okay, I see what they're doing. But man, the lack of preview situation in Tennessee was rough. Anders Reynolds 30:54 Bill, Tennessee feels like your account. You need to explain yourself. This is definitely Hodge and the lodge behavior. What is going on? Bill Hodge 31:03 Well, boy, you have no idea. Pandora's box that you just unlocked there. And as somebody who was part of stewarding the southern Appalachians in general, I would counter your argument for more privies in Tennessee, and I would say probably also in North Carolina, by saying that maybe if we eliminated the privies in Georgia, we would not condition two hikers to expect to have a toilet where they go, such a nice object. This is a legitimate year in, year out debate, and I'll admit, I've been out of the Appalachians for about seven years now, but before I left, this is an ongoing debate we conditioned through hikers to having privies at all the shelters in Georgia, and then they cross the line in North Carolina and on up the road into Tennessee, and there aren't any privies. And I get that. You know, people need to learn how to look for the x. So folks listening. And if you've not done it through hike or whatever, you never had to really maybe use a cat hole on a regular basis. You're supposed to make an X out of two sticks. That sort of gives people the idea that, Nope, don't dig right here, because somebody already dug and refilled right here. But it's funny that you break this out. This is like a hot button issue, because a lot of a lot of the trail in Georgia goes through designated wilderness areas. Some of those shelters were grandfathered into designated wilderness on the 18. It's funny. It's just kind of a I immediately started having PTSD when you brought up the privies, because I'm in the opposite camp, which is maybe we'll need fewer privies so that we don't condition you precious through hikers to expect a toilet everywhere you go. Anne Robinson 32:34 So I guarantee you, I have no doubt that there have been some fierce argument on both sides around this debate. And I get it. A lot of the volunteers who maintain these shelters and these privies are older, and they don't necessarily have the ability or desire to go comb through human shit. I get it. I do not blame though I do. I do say this entirely in jest as part of the through how you experience I do think one of the reasons I heard for this being a thing is that, because the at is on national parkland, all of its bathrooms are required to be handicapped accessible. And unfortunately, there is not a stipulation in there for back country privies. And so I want you to know there's a surprising amount of privies on trail that are handicap accessible. You will climb up a mountain, you will see a shelter perched on a cliff somewhere, and you will walk into the Privy, and it will have a ramp, and it will have handrails, and it will be big enough to turn a wheelchair around in. And these are like the new ones. Basically, as they tear down an old one, they put up a new handicap accessible privy, and it cracks me up every single time I'd walk into one of those, because it'd be like, Ah, yes, this wheelchair user did just climb up this cliff to use this privy. Very, very likely. But so I think I heard that that was part of the reasoning as well. But yes, the privies or like thereof in Tennessee was a fierce debate, even on the trail. Bill Hodge 34:00 Well, the most legitimate argument against my argument, the reason to have privies in Georgia is, if, again, for our audience that maybe isn't that familiar with through hiking, there are something like 3000 people that start the at northbound every year. Maybe it's a little less than that, but about 80% of them have given up by the time they get to the Smokies. And so the reason for the concentration of privies in Georgia is also related to the sheer volume you have that many people at one compressed time period in the spring, starting on the trail, you will have bombs everywhere in the woods if you don't provide the privies. I had no idea we were going to get into privy talk today, but it's an interesting, compelling one. Anne Robinson 34:43 You can't talk about the trail without talking about privies. Anders Reynolds 34:47 Yeah, exactly. And I've got one last question, and it's the toughest one we're gonna ask today, and that's, what's the next challenge? Anne Robinson 34:57 Oh, I'd say the next challenge is probably getting a job. And. Economy. But realistically, if we're talking in general, I think I'd like to pursue my master's sometime in the next couple of years. I'd like to get a master's with a focus on climate resilience. I think my time on the trail honed my desire to work in this field. I was already something that I really wanted to do. This was a career that I was passionate about, but seeing the impacts of climate while I was on trail, honed is the right word for it. It made something that I was already passionate about very fierce and driving. On a more fun note, next big adventure is I, I told you that I, when I met with you in Harper's Ferry that I wasn't sure I was putting on hold any decisions about future backpacking. And now that I've finished the trail, summited Katahdin and had a couple of months to think about it, I think that I am going to pursue the PCT and the CDT Anders Reynolds 35:58 going forward. Triple Crown. You're going for it? Yeah, Damn straight. Anne Robinson 36:03 It'll, I mean, it's not happening next year, but at some point in the next five years, I'd like to go do the PCT. Anders Reynolds 36:10 I mean, that's four more episodes of content for us. So you know, Bren, no, no, we support you so much. And I okay. So if any potential employers are listening hire Anne, and the you know, the best compliment I could probably give her is like, what an incredible hiking partner and would be. You're so fun on the trail, but you're so reflective afterward about, like, what you've seen and what you've learned. And I, I find it a real I've appreciated hearing your perspective on on through hiking the at, I think it's been really wonderful, and I think it it's I really appreciate how thoughtful you've been about the whole thing. Anne Robinson 36:50 I appreciate that. I am grateful for the opportunity to talk to you guys about this, partially because I want more more people to know about the at, it's a wonderful place, but also because I think talking to you all, and knowing that I'm going to talk to you forces me to reflect. To reflect on it in some ways. I mean, you're always thinking about it, but, but it forces me to put my thoughts into a coherent structure so that I can then relay it to you. And I appreciate that I've had that opportunity and that I have gotten to share this experience with you all. Anders Reynolds 37:17 If only bill would take that approach and kind of think things through before we recorded. It'd be nice, Bill Hodge 37:22 if only, if only. And thank you very much. We really appreciate you coming on. Thank you guys for having me and happy holidays. Everyone coming up on the wild idea podcast, we have a conversation with Sarah Francisco, who went from a childhood growing up on a Christmas tree farm to fighting for the forest of Appalachia. And we make some year end resolutions with our friend Michelle fullner from the Golden State naturalist podcast. And coming up in the new year, we'll be kicking off a month dedicated to telling the story of roadless wild places. If you like the wild idea, we hope you'll do two things besides subscribing, and we do hope you'll subscribe on your podcast player of choice, but give us a review on that app, and also recommend us to a friend. If you want to go a little bit deeper on our conversation with Anne or our other guests, you can do that by signing up for our newsletter at the wild idea.com and we look forward to seeing all of you on down the trail. Announcer 38:18 The wild idea is a production of wild idea media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at podlad Digital, support by Holly wilkeshevsky at daypack digital. Our theme music Spring Hill Jack is from railroad Earth and was composed by John skihan. Our executive producer and ring leader is Laura Hodge. You can find the wild idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more abo