Navigating Mental Health Challenges through Movement w/Melissa Hatcher

This paradox , as I view it , is the trust , interaction and communication gap that exists between fitness professionals and our medical community . This podcast is all about addressing that gap by disseminating the latest , most evidence-based and most engaging information in the health sciences . And to do that , in episode 130 , we're joined by Melissa Hatcher .

Melissa is a mental health professional , but she also is a yoga instructor and works for an organization called MindBody Optimization that takes very much a multidisciplinary approach to treating mental health issues .

Now , this episode is in a long line of episodes this year where we've talked about the role of movement in improving mental health and certainly , as we'll touch on in this podcast , the acceptance of mental illness is greater than it's ever been , but also the prevalence of mental illness seemingly is greater than it's ever been and that puts a lot of demands on

the mental health workforce . And , as we'll talk about in this episode , exercise can be a great adjunctive therapy to traditional talk therapy and other clinical therapeutic modalities , to helping not only improve someone's overall well-being but also to address mental health issues .

And , as Melissa said in this episode , there's no one who's ever gone for a walk outside and not said they felt better afterwards . So I think , intuitively , we all know this . Any information we'd like to share with you from today's episode can be found on the show notes page , that's by going to wellnessparadoxpodcom . Forward slash episode 130 .

Please enjoy this conversation with Melissa Hatcher Today . I'm delighted to be joined by Melissa Hatcher . Melissa , thank you so much for joining us on the podcast . Of course , happy to be here .

So I'm super excited for this discussion because we're going to talk about , kind of broadly , mental health today and the role of exercise and other things in improving mental health , and we've had many conversations on the podcast this year about the role that movement plays in mental health and , I just think , more broadly , the spotlight that's been shined on mental

health in our society nowadays . Recently in the podcast we had the Brick Foundation on that talked about their mental health certification for exercise professionals , which that's a first of its kind certification . So this is becoming much more a part of the conversation in our industry , which I think is much needed . So we're going to dive into that .

But before we get into that conversation , why don't you tell us a little bit more about your background , just to provide some context for our conversation ?

So I started my career doing applied behavior analysis and so that was mostly with the neurodivergent population , which encompasses quite a bit , but most people think of autism spectrum and ADHD and it is that , but it's quite a lot traumatic brain injuries , all of those things , and that specific population was five and under , and so what I noticed in working with

them was that family units were really struggling . I mean , you've got all this stuff going on . So eventually , when I decided on a graduate school , I decided to do marriage and family therapy because I was like , well , let's piece it all together .

And so I'm a marriage and family therapist now and I have a certification in equine-assisted therapy , which also ended up being . My specialty is neurodivergence is basically the gist of that , and I also have certifications in yoga , which all of these things help with neurodivergence , balancing the brain , doing all those things .

So , yeah , that's been most of my career .

Your background in neurodivergence is interesting because we have had on the podcast our audience will remember a couple of episodes that we've done with David Geslack from Exercise Connection , who they work with the autistic youth population on exercise .

So this is something that our audience they've heard the term neurodivergent before , particularly with respect to the autistic population .

So I love the blending of your yoga background and of your therapy background because , as I think we're going to talk about , there's a lot of benefits that can be conferred from that kind of movement to mental health and just your overall well-being . So , before we get into that , why don't you tell me a little bit about mind-body optimization as an organization ?

What do they organization ? What do they do ? What do they serve ? How are you affiliated and involved ?

We have and we all come from a really great background , so we can kind of handle everything that comes in the door or a vitamin deficiency , right up front to see if maybe that's what's going on , maybe you need more vitamin D , maybe you need your hormones adjusted , maybe you don't have a long-term mental health problem , maybe it's because of some other things .

So they check all those boxes before they begin this other journey into okay , well , we need this or that or all of those things . And we keep a pretty heavy staff so we can get people in for same-day appointments . And I think that is really unique because if anyone has ever tried to get in with a therapist or a psychiatrist , it can take months .

So it's really it's kind of revolutionizing things in that sense of having all this holistic work together and we are working and bringing other things on board and I do yoga here . So it's it's really it's exciting to see things come together .

But also , I think what you said about same-day appointments and being a little bit more consumer-centric we're in a world where people expect it . Today I can order something right now and Amazon will have it dropped off at my office before 3 pm .

That's the expectation of consumers , and healthcare falls very short of that , and mental healthcare in particular nowadays with the shortage of providers and the increasing needs .

So the fact that you are able to provide same-day appointments is quite remarkable and I'm not surprised to hear that a lot of people are taking advantage of that and you guys are growing because there is that growing need .

I am curious to ask you something as a frontline mental health provider who's been doing this for a little bit , frontline mental health provider who's been doing this for a little bit , what's your observations , just kind of , on the state of mental health in our country ?

You hear the narrative of like man , this is the worst that mental health has ever been , and there's a lot of . Sometimes I wonder if it's catastrophizing , sometimes if I wonder if it's reality , sometimes I wonder if it's somewhere in between . But you're on the front lines . What are you seeing just in terms of the trajectory of mental health in our country ?

So in a lot of ways it's gotten better because it's widely accepted If someone says that they're struggling , then people are automatically going to okay , well , you should go and see a psychiatrist or you should go and get a therapist like that's widely accepted now , whereas 10 years ago if you said that they would be like , suck it up , you're okay and , and so

there's a shift in that way of thinking . That being said , you know , over the past five years , um , just , the overall amount of anxiety and depression has definitely increased and it's gotten really heavy , and so that's part of the shortage and it leads to a lot of difficulty caring for people , honestly , because there's so many that need help .

But you take that combined with people saying , hey , you should go get help with you know , kind of a progressively declining state of mental health and you have a huge demand issue because of that . So it is a very , you know , kind of a progressively declining state of mental health and you have a huge demand issue because of that .

So it is a very , you know , interesting intersection and I think you know the conversations we've been having on the podcast is that , you know , certainly you know talk therapy , working with a qualified mental health provider is the cornerstone of , you know , addressing mental illness .

But the frequency that you can meet with providers , the number of providers that are out there , I mean this does require very much a multidisciplinary approach and it sounds like with the yoga that you're doing in your organization . You guys are recognizing that .

So just talk to me on a super high level , before we get to specific , about how you , as someone who is in the realm of psychology , look at exercise in mental health broadly , but then even more specifically in helping treat mental illness .

So so , getting out , being out in the world , literally breathing fresh air , moving , and even I feel like sometimes , when we say we're going to take a walk , we're like , oh , I've got to have music or this or that , and maybe you do , but maybe you don't , maybe you just go and have a walk and that alone makes you feel better .

And I'm not saying it can solve like a major mental issue , but getting out , being active and just doing things is incredibly helpful for your wellbeing , just all the all the way around . And then , um , I guess more specifically , uh , let me , just let me . I'm going to use neurodivergence as an example , because that is what I work with the most .

So , inside the brain , when you have , for example , adhd or autism , there's a deficit in either the right or the left hemisphere , based on which one you have . So exercise , specifically balancing activities , which is where being on a horse or doing yoga , and I'm sure that there are other exercise professionals that can maybe even help with this more .

But balancing helps to work the brain . It actually activates those sections that have problem firing and automatically people feel better and obviously the more they do it , the better they feel and the lesser their symptoms are . So there's definitely a direct link between deficits and not optimal firing inside your brain and exercise .

But is there an additive benefit to kind of the connection with the animal that you see in equine therapy , or is it just more of the balance component ? It's just me being curious .

So if someone's feeling really anxious , I use him to tell me because he will get anxious . And so then we , you know , work through that like , okay , well , we're going to have to calm down so that we can approach the horse , so that they will calm down .

And then there's something that happens in that getting calm together with an and I mean and it's probably true with with dogs as well just being in the presence of them and petting and their calm . So then you calm down .

It's called cold regulation , and the calmer the room is , or the calmer the place that you're at , the calmer you will be , because you will bring your regulation down to to match what's going on , if that makes sense .

So you also mentioned , you know , your your work with yoga and now we're now we're getting into the movement space . So I'd like you to talk a little bit more specifically about that .

You know , maybe first you know what got you into it and what got you thinking , hey , this is actually could be , a therapeutic modality , and then maybe talk a little bit more specifically about how you're actually using it in practice .

We'd moved across the country and it was high anxiety , things weren't working out , you know , the kids were having trouble in school , and so that was when I really started noticing , oh , I really like , if I don't do yoga , I just have a really bad day . And so I was like I wonder if , like , I can bring this into therapy and how that would work .

And I actually we were in Augusta , georgia , at the time , and I , you know , I think you're in places and things just line up sometimes the way they're supposed to .

I found a great yoga studio there called space , and they're a nonprofit and they were training people and in yoga therapy , and I was like , oh well , this just makes all the sense , let me go get certified there . And , um , the owner's really fantastic . We talked all the way through all these things and I mean you release a lot of emotions when you do yoga .

It just kind of comes out and I'm sure that that you know . I know that that also happens in other exercise , because I used to be a runner and I mean , you feel so much better after you run , like it's just like you could be so stressed , and then go for a run and automatically you're like oh yeah everything is better .

And you know , this particular employee went through all of this and she ran this half marathon and I asked her afterwards like how was it ? And you know I was expecting something like it was physically demanding , the hills were tough , I'm sore .

The first words that came out of her mouth were it was really emotional and it was like she felt like it just released all this kind of emotional burden that she was dealing with with her husband's cancer and caregiving . And I just I thought that was a fascinating thing because it was the last thing that I was expecting her to say , but it was .

It was like she didn't say a word about being sore or it was a hilly course . She didn't say anything about the hills , it was just emotional . So I don't think sometimes we give exercise its due credit with the ability to release those emotions .

And there is there's a lot of resistance to that and , and I think , just continuing to try to suggest it , and maybe if we can even link up and have more networking and figure out who can help more with that , I don't know what exactly the answer is , but I do think that there's a significant increase in feeling better when you're active .

You need to find like-minded individuals that are willing to go on that crusade with you , and that's exactly what I found at the MRF Institute . The team over at the MRF Institute creates educational content for fitness and wellness professionals who are serious about becoming a part of our healthcare continuum .

Getting on the healthcare continuum is all about leveling up our skills to be looked at as that valued resource provider . The wellness paradox is certainly an avenue for you to do that , but we need many different levers to pull if we're going to get there , and the MRF Institute is definitely one of those levers .

You can go to their website , mrfinstituteorg , to find all kinds of great , informative , free , informational content and if you choose to engage with any of their paid content , they've created a coupon code specifically for Wellness Paradox listeners .

You can enter in WP2022 , that's WP , and then the number 2022 to the website at checkout to receive a 15% discount on your purchase . I highly recommend you go check out mrfinstituteorg . Now back to today's episode . Yeah , and , as you know , if we did want to dive deep into research , we could talk about all the mechanisms .

I mean some of the research on like brain derived nootropic factor and endorphins and enkephalins . I mean there's some fascinating neurophysiology that undergirds a lot of the stuff we're talking about . But you said something there that I really want to drill down on because I think it's interesting for our audience to understand .

Our audience of exercise professionals mostly works with people that are exercisers . For the most part they're people that are into exercise . They're coming to them for that reason . But a population that we are progressively starting to work more and more with as we integrate into healthcare are either the ambivalent exercisers or the complete exercise resistant people .

And so I'm curious from your perspective . I mean , you certainly see exercise resistance more than we will in our field . The two questions I have for you , the first one might be a little bit more challenging to answer than the second , but the first question is where do you think that might be rooted for some people ?

And then , secondly , how do you go about trying to overcome that Kind of like you just said , like you know , let's consider a walk and , you know , maybe somebody says no , and then , like you know , then what do you do ? Because I think that that's something that both of those would be really insightful for our audience to understand .

And then you're , you're working towards that , but there's this anxiety of change and it seems like , okay , well , what if you get out and you exercise ? There's this anxiety of , well , who am I going to see ? Who's going to see me ? What if I'm not doing it ?

Right , it's , and you're like something as simple as a walk , but there's just this overwhelming amount of just actually doing it .

And so maybe , if you would have to find someone that would be willing to be like , okay , we're going on a five minute walk and we're going to work up to an hour and work up to working out minute walk and we're going to work up to an hour and work up to working out .

But there's got to be this almost liminal space of this person can't handle a whole lot , and so we have to just do the smallest little baby steps until they feel more comfortable with doing it .

And then obviously that's with an anxious person , but when someone is severely depressed , the motivation to do anything is very minimal , and so that that's a bit tougher to get someone going with .

It almost sounds like you suggested like an almost an exposure therapy approach , like hey , let's just give you a little bit and then let's give you a little bit more and then give you a little bit more . I think sometimes in our field , you know , we get too guideline centric .

We know that the physical activity guidelines say you should do 150 minutes per week of moderate to vigorous intensity physical activity and sometimes I think we think of that number and we think of only doing five minutes once a week , being so far away from that number .

But if it's done in service of moving them towards that number in a way that makes them feel more comfortable about it , then I actually think it's appropriate .

And so you just kind of have to show up without your own agenda and meet them where they're at and then adjust your plans accordingly .

And then if you keep them where they're not too overwhelming because that's when people really get stressed out and they're like , oh , I don't want to , I can't do it , so I'm not even going to try is when things get too big and overwhelming , and so it's meeting them where they're at , and if they're at , I'm taking a five minute walk today and that's all I

got for you . Then that's all I got .

And again , I think , as we become as a , as a profession , more aware of kind of evidence-based coaching principles but as well as people who you know for five minutes , asking them to go from zero minutes to five minutes is a big jump , it's , it's , it's it's having that appreciation .

So tell me just a little bit about how you know you're integrating yoga into the work at mind body optimization , just broadly speaking , like how do you guys do that operationally ? Do you have a class ? Any patient can come to you , like I'm curious how that works .

It may end up being like a group therapy situation , but right now I only do it individually in a in a therapy session and it just kind of again , that's the people that I do it with , those are the people that I'm meeting where they're at that day , and you know they may come in and they're like I need to move , and so we get out the yoga mats and we

move while we talk and um and it it does . It helps . Having that movement and distraction helps them get out what they need to say , versus if you're just sitting . They're generally like I don't feel like talking , I don't want to do anything , I really want to just go , and I have actually taken some of them on hikes .

Sometimes we have a little area out back If I'm like , yeah , yoga is not going to work for you today , let's go actually be outside and see what we can do there Now it's getting too hot for that and see what we can do there Now it's getting too hot for that , but , but it is handy because we have this , it's it's fairly private out back and we'll just

go out there and it's it's very nice . So . So there's , those are the two things that I do exercise wise .

When someone comes in and they're like , oh , I got , I cannot sit here and do this today , I'm like , okay , well , let's move around and do a bit of a different thing and , specifically with neurodivergence , that balancing of in yoga is , it's so great , it works really well , and it kind of clears their heads , like , gives them they're like oh , I , oh , I can

do this today because now I don't have 9 million thoughts going on , because I'm focused on doing what we're doing .

So I think that's fascinating and so that I'm glad you explained that , because what I was envisioning is that there's a room in your business where a bunch of people come and do yoga but you doing it in the context of an actual therapy session is different than what I thought and it's , it's a very stark contrast to the . You know I picture the .

You know the , the Freudian psychoanalytic environment where someone's lying down on a couch looking up at the ceiling , and that's just awkward on so many levels . It is , I will tell you from a career at least the first part working with people in exercise environments .

The things that they will tell you and talk about because I think that they're just a little less filtered never cease to amaze me , and I'll certainly tell you at some points of time in my career .

There are certain things I heard that I probably wouldn't rather have heard , or maybe wouldn't not in my scope of practice to hear , but it is how interesting how that kind of distraction of the task just kind of frees people up to speak more freely . So that's fascinating .

This is just my healthcare economist hat wants to ask the question when you do that , are you billing for it just like a regular therapy session ? That's amazing and as well you should right Fascinating .

So there's many more things we could dive into , but I want to be respectful of our audience's time and your time as well , so I'm going to have one more question to ask before we bring this to a close . But before I get to that final question , where can people go if they want to find out more about you and the great work you're doing ?

I normally end the podcast on , but you know , whenever I have a healthcare provider on , I have the opportunity to ask the question a little differently , so you so for me , I consider the wellness paradox to be the gap in trust and communication that exists between fitness and exercise professionals and health care providers , so we can make this question more specific

to you . From your perspective , what could exercise and fitness professionals be doing different or better to more effectively develop relationships with mental health providers ?

But I think it would be really great because we're not collaborating a whole lot right now .

So if there were ways to connect that more deeply , because obviously , like , I can't get someone out and do a really intense training session , but there are definitely people that I would say , hey , you should and could go and see a personal trainer and have this , and it would be nice to have just some that we already have some connections with .

I think that would be helpful with people as well , because if I told them , hey , this specific person is who you should go to , versus like , let's find some random person , they're more apt to go because it is it's hard . It's hard to come to therapy , like it's hard to do what your therapist says , sometimes because they're just overwhelmed .

And the easier I can make it for them to do it , the more likelihood of them doing it will be .

If you found it insightful and informative , please share with your friends and colleagues . Those shares make a real difference for us . Any information we'd like to share with you from today's episode can be found on the show notes page , that's , by going to wellnessparadoxpodcom . Forward slash episode 130 .

Please be on the lookout for our next episode when it drops in two weeks , and don't forget to subscribe through your favorite podcast platform Until we chat again next . Please be well .