And welcome back to the Wellness Paradox podcast . I'm so grateful that you can join us on this journey towards greater human flourishing . This is episode number two in a 12-part series in collaboration with the American College of Sport Medicine , on the September-October themed issue of the Health and Fitness Journal on professionalization and advocacy .
As always , I'm your host , michael Stack , an exercise physiologist by training and a health entrepreneur and a health educator by trade , and I'm fascinated by a phenomena I call the wellness paradox . This paradox , as I view it , is the trust , interaction , and I'm fascinated by a phenomena I call the wellness paradox .
This paradox , as I view it , is the trust , interaction and communication gap that exists between exercise professionals and our medical community .
This podcast is all about closing off that gap by disseminating the latest , most evidence-based and most engaging information in the health sciences , and to do that , in episode two of our series , we're joined by Dr Rachel Pajednik .
Rachel will have a conversation with us around the column that she co-authored , entitled Critical Action Steps to Take as a Certified Exercise Professional in a Rapidly Evolving Healthcare Marketplace .
This is a very interesting discussion with Rachel , because we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about a variety of topics that we'll dive into much more deeply throughout the rest of this podcast series .
The two very important topics that I want to feather out of this discussion and you'll hear Rachel and I talk more about this first and foremost is the concept of building trust , and how many of the things that she talks about in this episode , as well as a theme throughout this entire podcast series , will be how we develop trust with healthcare providers and with
the public and , as Rachel will explain , that can be done through certification and credentialing . But the second thing that she talks about , which ties into trust , is making sure we're strong advocates for crafting a narrative around what true exercise professionals do . We'll talk about advocacy in this episode .
It'll come up on other episodes in this series but the fact of the matter is there's a narrative that exists around our industry out there , that is , we're a hobbyist profession or we're entertainment .
We all very well know internally in the industry that qualified exercise professionals are indeed part of healthcare and , as Rachel points out , it's now time to start advocating outside of our industry space for that narrative . Any information we'd like to share with you from today's episode can be found on the show notes page .
That's been going to wellnessparadoxpodcom forward slash episode ACSM2 . Please enjoy this conversation with Dr Rachel Pagendic Today . We're delighted to be joined by Dr Rachel Projednik . Rachel , thank you so much for joining us .
Michael , thank you so much for having me Thrilled to be here .
I am thrilled that you are here , because we are colleagues and friends and I've wanted to have you on my podcast for a long time and we finally have the opportunity to do it with this themed issue of the Health Fitness Journal .
And before we get into the article that you co-wrote with your co-author , nicole , why don't you give our audience a little bit of an idea of your background , just to provide some context for the discussion ?
Yeah , great . So I've recently had a pretty significant transition in my career . I have been a longtime academic , so very traditional . I was on the tenure track and was the director of the exercise physiology department at Norwich University until about two years ago .
And then we my husband and I decided to move to the West Coast post COVID and so I transitioned my career into basically half in industry and half in academia . So I now have an appointment at Stanford University and I teach there as well as work with their Institute of Lifestyle Medicine here at Stanford .
And then my industry job is with a company called Restore Hyper Wellness , and so I really work at the intersection of both , creating interventions to keep people healthy for the long term . So healthy aging muscle has always been my tissue , using exercise and nutrition to enhance muscle and keep people healthy for the long term .
And now I'm looking at a lot of these complementary therapies that people are using , so things like temperature change with cryotherapy and infrared sauna , and really thinking about how to create a network between industry and academia to study these things and give real , actionable , useful information based on the evidence to people so they can make good choices .
Awesome , and anyone that knows me would know that by you saying muscle is your tissue , it's muscle is also my tissue , so that , fundamentally , is why we're friends .
We are kindred spirits .
Hopefully we can share muscle .
Hopefully it's not just an exclusive relationship with you , but one of the reasons I was so excited that you agreed to write in this issue , and particularly in the article that we're going to talk about in a moment , is what you just said how you do have one foot in academia but also one foot in business and industry , and very similar to myself , and I know
that what happens in academia sometimes doesn't exactly scale to the real world , and then the things that are happening in the real world aren't always vetted by good clinical evidence , and so having someone that has both of those perspectives , I think provides a lot of value to our listeners and to the readers of the article , and the article it's a mouthful , what
it was entitled , so I'll give you the full mouthful and then we're going to dive into it .
It's critical action steps to take as a certified exercise professional in a rapidly evolving healthcare market , and we'll emphasize the action steps in this conversation and your co-author was Nicole Mandola and tell us what you really focused on in this article in terms of maybe the most critical of the critical action steps .
Yeah .
So I think one of the real impetus of these articles at least in particular this one , is recognizing that the market , the healthcare market , is evolving right now , and so in the first couple paragraphs of this article , we really talk about spending , and you and I have been on panels together where we're talking about money and how to create a system where people
are spending good money and getting healthy on the back end , right . And so what we're recognizing is that healthcare spending is changing .
We have , you know , almost $977 or so billion that's being spent on physical activity and that much of that now is going to be spent within the healthcare space , right , that's very different from where we have been in the healthcare market before , where much of it was spent on , you know , clinical care after the fact , after a diagnosis , after , you know , seeing
a physician , and what we're watching is this shift to preventive care , and that is a beautiful space for physical activity and for exercise professionals to start to integrate into this system .
And , as somebody that has been an educator of exercise and nutrition professionals for the past 20 years , this has been something that I have been advocating for for so long as I know that you have really working boots on the ground to get the medical and healthcare industry to recognize exercise professionals as integral components of this care system .
And now , as the market shifts , we are becoming colleagues with the medical professionals , because this is what the clients and the patients are demanding .
They want to use exercise and preventive care and other nutrition , sleep , stress , and so this article was really designed to help guide aspiring exercise professionals or professionals that are working in the space to use our system in the gyms , in the studios , in the clinics that have the gym spaces to really work to advance that initiative .
Yeah , and I think what you said about the market shifting is so important . This is not just an initiative that we are purely driving from our side of the table . Make no mistake about it .
Your work , my work , the work of a lot of other people over decades now has definitely moved the professionalization effort forward , but it takes two to be able to tango in that equation , and healthcare is starting to realize that if they don't focus on primary prevention and then , for that matter , secondary prevention to keep costs down as time goes on , the whole
system becomes economically not viable , and so part of this is our work on professionalizing our industry .
But the other part of this is that the environmental conditions in healthcare are right to allow us to be able to step into a void that exists , and I think the most interesting part and this is , you know , it's always sort of a contentious issue is , you know , physicians and other healthcare professionals that are trained in the more clinical spaces .
They're being called upon to be kind of jacks of all trade , if you will .
They have to be mental health professionals , they have to be exercise professionals , they have to be nutritionists , and I think the things that we're all recognizing is actually there are professionals in each of these spaces that are specifically trained to work in these areas and that the physician can be this really wonderful conduit to recognize .
Yes , this person is well , I want to keep them well , I'm going to send them to a personal trainer . This person has a specific diagnosis .
I'm going to send them to a trained professional that has a certification that knows how'm going to send them to a trained professional that has a certification that knows how to work with persons that have type 2 diabetes or cardiovascular disease or whatever diagnosis they might have .
And so we , as exercise professionals , have a very specific expertise to fill that space that the physician just doesn't have time and , in most cases , expertise to do .
Yes , time and expertise , and that is the major challenge that healthcare is facing writ large right now .
There is a major labor shortage in healthcare , and getting people to work at the top of their license , the highest and best use of their time , is so critically important , and I don't think anyone would disagree with the fact that it is not a doctor's highest and best use of their time to be writing an exercise program or teaching a squat when there are other
professionals that are out there that are capable of doing it . So , with that said , let's get into some of these action steps and , as I've said throughout this entire podcast series , as I've talked to people , we're not going to be able to get to everything in this conversation .
Read the issue , read the article , learn all the nuances that we're talking about , but let's get into some of these critical action steps that you and Nicole talked about .
Yeah . So step number one is get certified right , get the education , get certified and certification has an arc to it right . So you can start as a group X instructor . You can work as a personal trainer . That's where I started in this whole field , when I was 18 years old , I was a personal trainer . I got my certification .
I was teaching indoor cycling , which , frankly , I still do right . So group exercise and personal trainers these are the people that are the passionate workers , the movers , the shakers in the gyms and I have utmost respect for them .
And then , if you want to go a little bit further now , acsm specifically has exercise physiology certifications and clinical exercise physiology certifications . These are interesting because the landscape is changing around these certifications . So recently there were changes in the accreditation standards .
You actually do need to have a degree from an accredited exercise science or exercise physiology program to take these exams . So , as I mentioned , there's an arc , right . So if you want to work in a studio , you want to work in a gym , you want to work in a club , there's certifications for that .
If you want to start working with more clinical populations , there are certifications for that . So number one education and certification .
Great . And just so everyone is aware , we will be talking about these other topics in much greater depth and detail in some of the other episodes in this series . Next week , in Episode 3 , we'll be talking about the Coalition for the Registry of Exercise Professionals and the certifications that fall under that umbrella .
On October , the 7th , we're going to be talking to Ben Thompson about programmatic accreditation and certification . So we'll dive a little bit deeper into that critical action step as we get into those episodes .
Awesome . So that's step . Number one is get your certification wherever you feel like you fit into this space , into the market , into the healthcare space . This is where you want to start . The next thing is we talk a little bit about credential stacking , and I'd like to dive into this a little bit because I think it layers on to the idea of certification .
So , let's say , you start as a personal trainer or you start as a group X instructor and then you recognize in your community , in your space , that there is a specific niche that's not being met , or that you start to develop a passion for a specific population that you want to dive into a little bit deeper .
So I mentioned it before things like having a medical diagnosis so it could be type 2 diabetes or cardiovascular disease those are actually going to require a little bit more education to understand what the risks are with exercise , how to mitigate those risks , how to make sure that you have the safety protocols in play to make sure that people are exercising in a
safe way . And so you can start to think about , in addition to your primary certification , adding other certifications on to broaden your expertise , which does a couple of things right .
So number one it makes you more marketable within the space because you can work with several different populations , but it also helps to , as we were just talking about , professionalize our exercise space , because you can start to work with the healthcare sector and say , hey look , I actually do know what to do with patients that have type 2 diabetes or pregnant
women or postpartum women or somebody that has a specific area of need , and that way this is super important we start to develop trust between these two spaces and that is , if I was to sort of say , like one of the most important things that we need to do as exercise professionals is start to develop that bridge of trust into the healthcare space .
This is a way that you can do it . So I am now a group X instructor that knows how to work specifically with postpartum women , right ? So it starts to help you market , it builds the trust between these two sectors and it professionalizes our entire world and that trust is such an important piece .
A very good friend of ours , amy Bantham , was the lead author of an article on that specific topic in this issue that we'll get to in episode number seven .
I have so many episodes in this series right in front of me I got to make sure I'm reading the right line and that's on the article Developing Trust and Collaborative Partnerships Between Healthcare Providers and Exercise Professionals .
And to your point , I don't think that most healthcare providers understand the certification and credentialing process in our space and I think we're working on that .
But when you can credential stack and show them that you have a specialty in a certain area like pre and postnatal , to your point , or exercises medicine or whatever it may be , I think that makes it very clear to that healthcare provider that this is someone who's actually taken the time to have advanced knowledge in this particular area .
And it goes right into the next step . That I think is really important and you've already tapped on this a little bit is this idea of being registered with the United States Registry of Exercise Professionals , the US reps .
So this is actually really fascinating and I have to cop to this , because I did not know that you are automatically registered with US Reps when you have a certification .
When Nicole and I were writing it , I was like you know what , I wonder if I'm on there , and I went and searched myself and there I was with my certification , and so I think this is actually a really important element that a lot of you know .
When I was training students at the university , this is something that I think this is a tool that we don't even realize that we have in our toolbox , and we have got to tell people more and more about this registry and how to use it , because when we're , for example , trying to create this trust network with the healthcare industry , if I'm going to work with
a doctor , if I'm going to work with a doctor or I'm going to work with a clinician or a dietician or somebody that's in that sector , I can say , hey , look , I am registered as a professional in this space and if you look at that registry , they actually have all these really awesome little find me buttons that you can put in your email signatures .
So it actually again this idea of professionalizing . We are registered professionals . You can look for me , you can see what credentials that I have and I can advertise it when I reach out to these healthcare professionals right in my email signature . So this , I feel like , is a tool that , again , I didn't even recognize .
I've been working in this space for 20 years and I'm like , oh my goodness , I've been on this registry the whole time and I've never used it . This is a tool in the toolbox that I think every certified exercise professional needs to be using and also sharing like crazy .
I'd like to take a quick break from today's episode to tell you about a great offer from the American College of Sport Medicine . Until October 21st 2024 , the ACSM is offering a $30 discount on their Alliance membership .
This is a membership that's crafted specifically for health and fitness professionals , and getting this membership will give you access to all the articles in the themed issue on professionalization and advocacy that we're talking about in this podcast series , as well as a whole host of other member benefits .
To take advantage of this discount , go to acsmorg forward , slash join . That's acsmorg forward , slash join . That's acsmorg forward . Slash join and enter in the discount code alliance save 30 . Again , this is valid only through October , the 21st 2024 . So go to acsmorg forward , slash join and enter in the discount code AllianceSave30 . Now back to today's episode .
Yeah , you nailed it , and I think this gets to the heart of a conversation that happens a lot around our field , which is should we have licensure , should we seek to have that licensure status ?
And , as we're going to talk about in episode five in this series with Ben Thompson , we do bring up the concept of licensure and the alternative to licensure is registry . As an example , there are registered dietitians and there are also licensed dietitians , depending on the state .
But I think we've learned from the challenges of other professions with licensure and all of the challenges from a bureaucracy standpoint as well as a portability from state to state standpoint that that results in . And so the registry is our alternative to licensure that we're pursuing .
And so when we get to next week's episode with Brian Biolgi to talk a little bit more about the US registry , everyone will learn more about it . But ACSM , ace , nsca , the National Council on Strength and Fitness , those are the primary exercise organizations that are a part of it .
And , to Rachel's point , if you're certified by one of those organizations , you're automatically on the registry and you only stay on it if you continue to keep your certification current with CECs .
I would love to just double tap on that really quickly . Keep your certification current with CECs . I would love to just double tap on that really quickly . That was not mentioned necessarily in our article , but the idea of continuing education you know this could be the credential stacking but also making sure that your credentials are updated and current right .
So I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep your credential updated . Make sure you're doing your continuing education , make sure that you're maintaining your spot on the registry . I know a lot of people will get their certification and then be like , oh no , I'm not going to keep it up , I'm not going to go back and re-register .
It's so important to keep your credential up to date for all of the reasons that we're talking about and , you know , sort of really highlighting that your credential is the ticket to building this trust and it keeps you updated on that registry . So definitely make sure that you're keeping your credential up to date .
Yeah , absolutely , and we'll dive into all these topics as we go through the series . One of the reasons I wanted to have Rachel on in episode two is because it kind of frames up a lot of the other important points that we're going to talk about through the rest of the series . So give us a couple others .
I feel like we probably got another good 10 minutes that we can dive into these action steps . So what other things should our audience be thinking of ?
Yep . So on top of the registry , the next step up . Thinking of Yep , so on top of the registry , the next step up .
So if you have these more advanced credentials the ones that you need a bachelor's degree from an accredited university to get I think the next step up on top of the registry is making sure that you get your national provider identifier , so your NPI , and these are for people that have the ACSM exercise physiology or clinical exercise physiology certifications , and this
is one that is uniquely identifiable to healthcare providers , right ? So they understand an NPI . This is something that they use themselves . So if you have this advanced credential , this is one that you actually have to seek out . You need to go and do the registration yourself .
So , unlike the US reps , you do have to actually go and do the paperwork and make sure that you're registered for your NPI , but this gives you that advanced recognition as a clinical exercise provider . So make sure if you have those ACSM-EP or ACSM-CEP certifications , you go and get your NPI .
Yeah , great , really important . We won't dive much more into than that because NPIs get complicated , but it essentially is , you know , I think of it as like your social security numbers , how the government knows that they can , you know , associate your paycheck with the taxes that comes out .
This is the kind of the healthcare version of that to a certain degree .
So yeah , no taxes , no taxes due with your NPI .
No taxes due with your NPI . Yes .
Yeah , no taxes due with your NPI , but it is that unique identifier like a social security number , yeah , okay . And then the next one that I just think is super important and this is something that I work so hard on and I know that you do your podcast is one of the more exemplary examples of this is advocating for our profession , right ?
So when we look at health clubs , fitness facilities , studios , community centers , people see these as kind of like recreational spaces where you know I'm going to go do my squats or I'm going to go to my spin class or I'm going to go do my Zumba , but actually these are going to be the healthcare centers of the future , right ?
So when you go to see your doctor right now , michael , when's the last time you've been to your doctor ? How long did you spend with your actual physician ?
A it's been a while , and B I don't know , maybe nine minutes , while she was typing on a keyboard .
Yeah , and God love the physicians . We know they hate the EHRs as much as everybody else , right ? But they get 5 , 10 , 15 minutes with people , right . They get just enough time to do the screenings , to do the testing , to make sure that you are good to go .
If you're working with your GP or your primary care provider , they don't have time to do the exercise programming . They barely have time to do a referral to an exercise professional .
So what I would love to see is that the health clubs , the fitness facilities , the studios , the community centers they become the place where people go for the care , and so that's a narrative , right ?
That is something that we have to start talking about in our space , and what I mean by that is not just hey , come here and exercise because exercise is good for you . This goes right back to the idea of the advanced credentialing , goes right back to the idea of credential stacking . Is we are the experts on exercise .
Credential stacking is we are the experts on exercise , whether you are a person that is well , that wants to stay well , whether you are a person that has one of these clinical diagnosis you are postpartum , you're pregnant , you have a mental health issue that you want to work through . We actually are trained to help you with exercise .
But people right now see the fitness and wellness industry as a nice to have , or maybe in some cases as the place where you go and you get muscles and you get a hard body right . But we actually are so much more than that , and so we have an opportunity , as exercise professionals , to position our places of work as the healthcare facility of the future .
So I think that is such an important component . We have to be good marketers . We have to be good advocators for our space .
Yeah , and I love the way you frame the concept of advocacy and we're going to talk about advocacy . In this series we had Mike Kaczynski , who's the head of government affairs for the Health and Fitness Association . He'll be on the podcast in episode number six , which drops on the 14th , to talk a little bit more about advocacy .
And advocacy can sometimes be , I think , a little intimidating because people think it's lobbying and it's going to Capitol Hill .
And while it's true , that's part of it , what you said is it is about creating a narrative and shifting the narrative that has existed in our industry for almost since its existence , which is we're an entertainment space , we're a nice to have , not a have to have , and certainly the narrative has never been that we're healthcare and we don't have to look any
further than the pandemic to see how little we were treated as healthcare when we were closed during a public health emergency and then reopened with , like restaurants , bars and sporting venues . And I think that that shifting the narrative , if it's gonna be done effectively , has to come from top down , bottom up , outside in , inside out .
It has to come from everywhere , and I think being that advocate is something that everyone who's listening to this can absolutely do , in a way that is approachable and comfortable for them .
It's just such an important element of differentiating exercise from a nice to have to a must have in the healthcare continuum . I just think it's so important and it doesn't need to be as you point out . It doesn't need to be lobbying , it doesn't need to be expensive marketing campaigns . It can literally be you using your social media .
It can be showing people what your skills are . It can be putting that little US rep sticker on your email credential right and I just think the advocacy piece and the showing of what our expertise actually is is so important .
You said something there that I want to double click on because I think it's important . You said social media , and I know we've had conversations about this in the past .
Social media is an amazing tool that could be used for a lot of good and also not a lot of good , and I don't think we have to look much further than the fitfluencer space to see how sometimes it's not used for good . As I scroll through my social media feed , I see some things that are from the fit fluencers that are not helping to change that narrative .
Do you have any advice for the professionals that are listening that succinctly , because I feel like you and I could both talk about this for a while about how they should be thinking about curating their social media . So it advances the narrative that we want to advance .
Yeah , we could definitely have an entire podcast about this , because I have so many thoughts , but I will try to be succinct . One thing that I say all the time and I mean this with utmost affection and respect , and this is coming from a scientist and a professional in this space is that we suck at Like .
We are really bad at it , and the fit fluencers , as you were pointing out , are really really good at it , and I think one thing that we can learn from them is they are really excellent storytellers and they are also really excellent at basically shining a light on a space that people didn't realize that they needed help in .
Right , and so we can use the evidence base , we can use our expertise and I like to say , crowd out the crap right on the social media .
We're not doing it well right now , and I think those two things of showing people a narrative and a story and telling them about how important exercise is for them and not in a way that's going to , you know , get your muscles huge or get your waist snatched or whatever kids are saying these days , but really about addressing things that people are concerned about
in their day-to-day how does exercise help with your glucose or your cardiovascular disease risk or your . You know I keep using postpartum recovery right , but make it less boring , less health class from seventh and eighth grade , and make it more exciting . Make it a story , make it why is this important to people ?
And show people how exercise actually does benefit these things from an expert's perspective . So social media it's a double-edged sword , right , it's really hard and it's really challenging . I dabble in it . You are pretty good at it . It's a tool .
It's a tool that we need to get better at using , because that's where the people are , and I would love to see our profession really think about how to use this in a way that differentiates us and our expertise from the Fitluencer crowd .
Yeah , absolutely . It is an entirely interesting conversation that I would love to dive more into . We'll put a pin in it there for now .
Episode two .
Yeah , episode two or somewhere else in this series of podcasts , but I think we have time for one more critical lesson , so let's pick out the most critical of the critically remaining lessons .
Yeah . So I think I'm going to come back to this idea of creating a bridge of trust right , and this is something that you'll talk about with Amy Bantham as well .
This is where and it kind of taps into everything that we've been talking about right now throughout the entire podcast having an accredited credential , having a relationship with the healthcare providers by showing them the accredited credential whether it's the registry , whether it's that button on your signature page , whether it's reaching out and saying , hey , I am an
expertise in XYZ diagnosis or specific population and through that we differentiate ourselves from that fitfluencer crowd which right now , is what the healthcare providers are seeing us as . So I'll give you a really brief example .
When I was presenting one time probably two or three years ago before that , because COVID is a black hole when we looked at the , I was going in and working with a bunch of endocrinologists at a conference presenting on how exercise could be so beneficial for their patients that had specifically type two diabetes , and they were all leaned in and they were like oh
yeah , great , exercise is wonderful , this is great . And the second I said you should refer to somebody like a personal trainer . They all did this , and if you're listening , I'm leaning back away and I'm crossing my arms right , which is the international sign for you have lost me .
And so what happened in the questions and answers afterwards is somebody came up to their microphone and said I hear you that my patients with type two diabetes should exercise . I don't trust the exercise professional to know how to work with somebody that has glucose dysregulation .
I picture them going to a place , like you know , some extreme exercise space and not having somebody be able to actually manage should there be a crisis . And so I , literally I was just like . You know that we all go to school for this Four years worth of school , if not . You know , credential upon credential . We are the experts in this space .
So this comes back to this idea of the trust bridge . We need to make sure that we create this trust by showing our expertise above and beyond this venture crowd .
Yeah , you nailed it . And again , all of these are their podcasts .
All of your answers are podcast conversations in and of themselves that we'll actually be having in subsequent weeks on this , but that is a reaction from physicians that I , too , have gotten , and the whole goal of this professionalization effort is to change that reaction and , I believe , slowly it is happening , rachel .
There's so many other things that I would love to dive into with you , but we're just not going to have the time to get into everything today , so we're definitely going to have to have you back at some point . Before I get to the final question , where can people go if they want to find out about you and all the great work you're doing ?
Yeah , so I try really hard to be a good science communicator on social media . So you can find me at Rachel Pajetnik on Instagram and threads are kind of where I go . I'm not a TikToker yet , but you can also find me on LinkedIn . I do a lot of professional sharing on LinkedIn and I'm at Rachel Pajetnik and all those spaces .
Awesome , and I will tell you that Rachel's work on Instagram is amazing . I was just as you were talking . I was just thinking about . You posted the front page of an article yesterday that had an abstract and like that's the kind of communication that we need out there and that's engaging and that the larger population sees .
So please follow her and we'll link up to that in the show notes page . We'll also link up to this article on the show notes page so everybody can read it in greater detail .
The last question that I'm going to get you out of here on is if you could give one piece of advice to our professionals that are listening to this in terms of what they should be focusing on to advance and elevate our industry . What would that one piece of advice be ?
Talk to each other . Talk to each other . These industries need to start communicating healthcare exercise . I'll add nutrition into that space . We need to talk to each other . We need to understand each other's expertise , we need to understand each other's trainings and we need to refer to one another as the experts that we are . So talk to one another .
Network , create this bridge of trust .
Awesome . Dr Rachel Projednik , thank you so much for joining us on the Wellness Paradox . It is my absolute pleasure .
Can't wait to talk more in the future .
Well , I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did . If you found it insightful and informative , please share with your friends and colleagues . Those shares make a big difference for us . Any information we'd like to share with you from today's episode can be found on the show notes page , that's by going to wellnessparadoxpodcom . Forward slash episode ACSM2 .
That's forward slash episode ACSM2 . That's forward slash episode ACSM2 . Please be on the lookout for our next episode in this series when it drops next Monday , and don't forget to subscribe through your favorite podcast platform Until we chat again next week . Please be well .