Advancing Whole Person Health Through Coaching with Dr. Jessica Matthews

This paradox , as I view it , is the trust , interaction and communication gap between exercise professionals and our medical community . This podcast is all about closing off that gap by disseminating the latest , most evidence-based and most engaging information in the health sciences , and to do that . In episode 134 , we're joined by Dr Jessica Matthews .

Jessica has a fascinating background that starts as an exercise professional , like many of us listening , and progresses into health and wellness coaching and academia . And in this conversation we're going to talk about whole person health and , if we're being honest , that's really the only health that exists is the health of the whole person .

So this is going to be a really intriguing conversation , first around what whole person health is and how to think about it , but then , more importantly , how to foster it in the people that you're working with , your clients and your patients , particularly using the coach-based approach that you hear Jessica talk about .

In this episode We've talked about the coach-based approach previously on the podcast and I think it's something that all of us as exercise professionals can't hear enough , because no matter how great our exercise programs are , if we can't get people to do the behavior of actually implementing the exercise program , it's not gonna help them improve their health .

I think Jessica has so many good points and she's also such a dynamic and energetic speaker . I really think you're gonna enjoy this discussion . Anything we'd like to share with you from today's episode can be found on the show notes page . That's by going to wellnessparadoxpodcom . Forward slash episode 134 . Please enjoy this conversation with Dr Jessica Matthews .

Today . We're delighted to be joined by Jessica Matthews . Jessica , thank you so much for joining us .

This is the first time we've actually had the chance to chat , so I'm super excited for the discussion , very excited for this topic , because I think it's a unique topic we haven't quite talked about in this way yet and it really I think you're going to bring a neat perspective to the podcast .

But before we launch into that , why don't you just give us a little bit of an idea of your background to provide some context ?

I'll keep my background brief because I can always layer on more , but for a brief overview of how I've arrived here today and the perspective that I hope to bring to this conversation , I would say the first phase of my life journey really was informed by lived experience , seeing the firsthand witnessing chronic diseases unfold within my own family .

So the things I would go on to learn later in my academic studies I actually saw with real life human beings , and to understand those things from that perspective , to be honest , while very challenging , offered me a lens to bring to future work that I really think , ultimately , is the greatest shaper of what I do today .

I will flash forward , though , on that academic journey .

Ultimately , from that background of witnessing the impacts of uncontrolled and unmanaged chronic diseases , I discerned could I do something different about it , and , being a first-generation college student , I thought knowledge was power , and so I would set out , set on to learn more about exercise , science and have this bold idea being a first generation college student ,

I was going to teach ultimately teach other professionals about things like exercise , science and health . I would go on to do that , mike , but along the way what I realized is I took a deep dive into understanding physical health , as we do as exercise scientists .

Right , I learned all about anatomy , physiology , all of these important subjects , and then , when I went out and practiced , what I realized was there was so much more to the equation . I joke .

I didn't really learn about what happens from the neck up , and so that set me on the next phase of my journey , where I really wanted to understand the behavioral aspects , meaning what's really the drivers behind why people do or don't engage in healthful behaviors .

There were many other inflection points along the way that informed what I now take as a whole person perspective of health , but that's just a quick overview of , ultimately , the journey of how life has informed my practice .

And yeah , I think that that's why this concept of whole person health I'm so excited to talk about because what you said is so true of most exercise professionals is that we're basically taught , you know , from here down .

Unless we have to measure like I'm saying this as if our audience can see exactly what I'm doing on a podcast we're neck down like , unless we have to take a salivary cortisol measurement , like we're rarely are we thinking about here up .

But you know I'm sure you would agree with this statement we can write the most perfect exercise program in the world , but if someone doesn't implement it and adhere to it , it's not going to make a lick of difference at the end of the day .

I didn't know , mike , back then , that to be in academia you didn't actually have to be a formally trained educator . But lo and behold , for me I learned how to teach people the science . So I had this great background . But here's what happened , mike .

It wasn't a knock to my schooling or training or credentials , it was just this realization that I didn't understand the nuances of behavioral change . I mean not even the nuances . I didn't really have a background in that at all at that time . And so here I was , giving all of this great information , the latest science , the direct recommendations .

You'll just need to do this , this , this and this and it'll all be set . And I found , wait a minute . Information is powerful to some extent , but it's knowledge translated into action . I always say that's the secret sauce .

And that's what I set out to learn very humbly because , to be fair , I wasn't equipped with that skillset at that time earlier in my professional journey .

So the conversation today is around whole person health and while I think the term , if you walk down to people on the street and ask them what is whole person health , I think to some degree that's somewhat self-evident , but for the purposes of level setting this conversation , how do you think about whole person health ? How do you define it ?

But I would say , in thinking about whole person health , I will give credit to the National Center for Complementary Integrative Health because they do have some great working definitions .

When we think about whole person health , we are thinking about people less as component parts , so I say that , as organ systems , body parts , often how we have that reductionistic view . To be very frank , when we think about health , particularly physical health , it really invites us to understand that , both health and disease , you know they are related .

They're not two different entities . They are related and they are influenced by different factors . Those factors are things like biological factors , behavioral factors , social factors and environmental factors . And then I'll be very fair , mike , in again a reductionistic view , which often happens also in academia . In our training we often look at just one component part .

We say , well , somebody else on the care team , if you will , takes care of that . But the reality is we all need to have a firm understanding of at least this .

You know complexity , if you will , and I don't say that to complicate things , but in this case the complexity is to recognize there are many factors at play in those broad buckets , so to speak , that I just outlined that do influence health and also disease , and so if we can understand those , we can effectively reduce the risk of developing diseases .

We can also help to do things like better manage , treat and even put into remission chronic diseases . These were things I never heard early in my professional or academic journey , but they are very true .

That's a message of hope , and they're also the factors that can actually produce greater health and vitality and resilience and longevity , and these are things that should be so exciting to all of us as professionals and , of course , to the people we serve .

Now let's go a layer or two deeper and get into some of those complexities that you think about when you're helping somebody on their health journey .

just keeps mounting . You know , every moment of every day which shares , that there are key lifestyle behaviors , things like regular physical activity and exercise . You know a predominantly whole food , plant forward diet . Things like regular , restorative sleep , mitigating stress , reducing or avoiding risky substances , positive social connection .

These things are , in fact , powerful medicine . So , I do want to share that they prevent , effectively treat and can even reverse or put into remission chronic diseases . So those are those behavioral factors that we know are at play , sometimes also referred to as self-care practices . So that is a huge area that , to be honest . Notice , mike , that was a lot .

I mean not an exhaustive list , but it was a list of more than one particular activity , meaning all of these different behaviors do have an impact on our health and an impact on disease states .

Because , as you've seen , typically ill health is not a result of any one of those factors being deficient . It's probably a number of those factors being deficient at one time . So how do you think about where to start ? You have somebody in front of you . They have maybe uncontrolled hypertension , they've got diabetes that's a little all over the place .

They're sedentary , they're not sleeping well , they're stressed . Where do you start with something that's that complex ?

Meaning I do believe this and I say this often when I have great conversations with fellow professionals you have to genuinely , as a professional , believe to your core that people are whole , resourceful and capable of change .

If you think that in theory , but then when you meet person I say , oh well , they're this , that or the other , it will never go anywhere , anywhere because you've not seen their true potential . So it starts by first recognizing , while a variety of diseases and other conditions are unfolding , this person is whole , resourceful and capable of change .

Now , in light of that now I add in , of course , my expertise to say we have to understand you know , that's the biological aspects , what's physiologically happening with this person who has the variety of you know , disease states and conditions that you just mentioned .

The next part , to be honest , mike , I want to just dig into in all of these different things which , to be fair , I use language of my own patients and clients over the years . They will say it feels overwhelming . One client described it as an avalanche Every time I go to the doctor , it's like an avalanche .

I climb up an inch , I feel like , and then , you know , I just get plummeted down the side of a mountain and I don't even know what to do .

I want to start by saying you know , taking inventory and hearing , life is complex and challenging , not mitigating the many things people navigate , because there's all social factors , mike , that's a whole other camp we haven't unpacked yet . There's social factors at play that do influence people's health and health behavior .

Those things are not again happening in separate realms , they're happening all at once . It's an interplay . So , I want to start by also normalizing . It's okay to feel overwhelmed . It's okay to feel , like you know , I want to take ownership of my health and I'm not sure where to start .

I've yet to meet a person who doesn't want to live healthier , truthfully , even people who might be hesitant to change . I've not met someone who said you know what I'd love my health to just go out the window . Truthfully , I mean in this 20 plus years . Where I want to start is where might be the place they have the most energy or interest .

What's the place we could get our footing if we were climbing that mountain , Mike , and just say we don't have to scale to the top today , but we just want to start to move just an inch or two up that mountainside . Where's going to be that place ?

And just laying out those different areas , stress how they're eating , how they're moving , how they're sleeping , Don't take it all at once , but what might be the place we start to get our bearings together on this journey .

You also go on to have some empathy and compassion for the situation that they're in which I think some of us who are very healthy , either because we work really hard at it or we have great genetics or a combination of both . Sometimes we forget that . And then the last part is you kind of meet them where they're at .

You are meeting them and saying , hey , where is your energy ? And this gets into this conversation of the coach versus the expert approach . And I think the way I was taught in school was here's the ACSM guidelines , here's the guidelines for exercise testing and prescription .

You go implement this with your clients and so , okay , you go to the fit for strength training , you go to the fit for aerobic exercise , but that's not where you're starting and I would say that's not where the evidence suggests that you should be starting a behavior change journey .

So just touch really quick on this distinction between the expert versus the coach approach and why that coach approach can better facilitate long-term behavior change .

this is imperative information , it's knowledge and skill . Which brings me to the coaching piece , which is that I didn't disclose that part about my background , but I am a national board certified health and wellness coach . I serve as chair of the board of directors for the National Board for Health and Wellness Coaching .

I believe so deeply that every professional you know we have dedicated professionals , just like , as dedicated exercise professionals , we are the resident experts , if you will , when it comes to physical activity and exercise . Health and wellness coaches who are board certified . They also play that role within the interdisciplinary team .

But the reality is , all of us can embrace a coach approach and this is the recognition that we do have knowledge and expertise to bring to the partnership . And notice , I use the word partnership intentionally , but the reality is the person that is sitting in front of us , if you will . They also have expertise because they know themselves intimately .

When we talk about those social factors , mike , they will know things like you know , nuances about where they grew up , where they're living now , right , what other kind of things they're navigating within their life . Socioeconomic status these are all things that impact health . Again , they're not extraneous they .

Socioeconomic status these are all things that impact health . Again , they're not extraneous , they're vital information . In the same way , we would get other vital signs , to be frank , blood pressure , heart rate , I mean . That's how strongly I believe this and we do this in clinical practice .

But , to be fair , the coach approach recognizes , without both of our expertise , we really can't go as far on the journey as we would be able to if we partnered together . So that's what it seeks to do is really leverage the wisdom of the person who knows themselves best .

And then , be clear on this , mike it is to bring our expertise into the dialogue , but to do so without assuming what's the best path forward , what's the right answer for this person . Because , to be fair , without hearing what they're sharing , I could never know that information . It's not in the textbook .

And I always laugh that I I thought that after 30 minutes of talking to somebody , or 15 minutes of talking to somebody , that I knew more about them than they knew about them and I had the answers for them after that 15 to 30 minutes and when you put it into that context it's kind of humorous .

But I think that's all and that's just not how a lot of new professionals do things .

I think , broadly , in medicine have it be the medicine that I practice as an exercise professional , you practice as a health and wellness coach or a physician it is very paternalistic , it is very , very much the expert approach , and so I guess the question that bubbles up out of that is how do you start to shift that perspective in that paradigm for anyone who's

listening , have it be an exercise professional or a physician ?

It is an understanding of how and why people do , enact and ultimately sustain health behavior changes , because that is such a key ingredient in this equation . But it's much more than just sharing knowledge . I mean , that's what the science tells us , not my personal opinion that it does involve more than that .

It involves an understanding of individuals' motivators behind health behavior change , and so this really invites us . You know , the question you're asking is how do we ultimately get to that for the unique individual that's in front of us , which I love giving , it's the coach in me .

This does not make us , mike , like a backseat passenger where we're just showing up and , like you know , if you were my client or patient , like , hi , mike , how are you ? You know , just tell me what's going on , what do you feel like doing ?

I mean , that would be very passive in approach and that would not be a path that would get us to ultimately , you know , improved health and wellbeing . Conversely , me , ripping the wheel tightly and just saying I don't need you to tell me where we're going , mike , I'll just get us there , we also won't arrive at the end destination .

What I need to elicit and this is where the skill set of things like I use great frameworks and skills for motivational interviewing , for example , asking really pointed , open-ended questions Sounds odd to say . Pointed , open-ended questions . They're not just this broad , they go nowhere questions , philosophical , deep debate , but they're open-ended questions .

They're not just this broad , they-go-nowhere questions , you know , philosophical , deep debate , but they're open-ended questions that invite information to be elicited from the person about more insights of what is their life like .

You know , what is their perspective about things like their health , their current , you know , day-to-day activities , the kinds of health behavior changes that maybe have been recommended by other members of their care team . You should eat better , you should exercise more , you know just getting a sense of , ultimately , how they think , how they feel and how they act .

That's the basis of all cognitive behavioral therapies and , to be honest , this is insight . We should all , as professionals , exercise , professionals included . These are insights we should understand because they are the key prompters behind enacting and sustaining long-lasting behavior changes .

You need to find like-minded individuals that are willing to go on that crusade with you , and that's exactly what I found at the MRF Institute . The team over at the MRF Institute creates educational content for fitness and wellness professionals who are serious about becoming a part of our healthcare continuum .

Getting on the healthcare continuum is all about leveling up our skills to be looked at as that valued resource provider . The wellness paradox is certainly an avenue for you to do that , but we need many different levers to pull if we're going to get there , and the MRF Institute is definitely one of those levers .

You can go to their website , mrfinstituteorg , to find all kinds of great , informative , free , informational content and if you choose to engage with any of their paid content , they've created a coupon code specifically for Wellness Paradox listeners .

You can enter in WP2022 , that's WP , and then the number 2022 to the website at checkout to receive a 15% discount on your purchase . I highly recommend you go check out mrfinstituteorg . Now back to today's episode .

Yeah , and what I really appreciate about everything you said is this starts with a lot of conversation and dialogue and doesn't jump right to the exercise , assessment and the prescription process . When you're thinking about working with someone kind of you know , take us through your framework a little bit .

You know somebody comes to you and says , jess , you know , I just need to get healthy . You know I'm here , I want to work hard . How do you think about that kind of framework and that onboarding process used for them ? Because I feel like most of the people who are listening to this are going okay , this is awesome .

I agree with everything she's saying , but where do I start from a process perspective ?

But I'd start with what you were just alluding to , mike , which is the importance of building trust and rapport , and I know that's a huge , you know , aspect of ultimately , the creation right of this very show is to say , you know , bridging things like communication gaps , you know trust gaps . That's huge and that includes with the people we serve .

So , yes , they're coming to us because they trust we have the training and the knowledge and the educational background to support them in their journey . But we also need to have that opportunity to connect with them as a real life human being . Remember , they are not their disease , disorder and condition .

I share this from lived experience of seeing how my family members felt being like . You know , I am not a type two diabetic , my name is blank .

I mean that's how we should be approaching people and also that empathy you touched on before that we were talking about that is so important to recognize that where they are now on their journey this does not have to be where they are forever . but to actualize this is difficult .

Now it might be easeful for us when we think about why exercise every day , I eat healthy . Well , for this person , that's not their experience . So I need to understand and ask some of those key questions about , for example , what you just shared . You know , mike , it's interesting and I'm going to use that language you use .

You mentioned you know I need to eat healthier . You know , when you think about eating healthy , what does that look like to you ? Like I want to get a baseline of what this person is arriving with in terms of what they think the expectation is of them , because so many things we think about people will have different kind of like we level set it .

I want to know what does eating healthy look like to this person ? Does that come with some flexibility to it ? Does it come with very rigid thinking to it ? I have to do X , y and Z and if I don't do it , perfect . Well , why even bother at all that all or nothing thinking ?

These are the kinds of things I can extrapolate by actively listening to what people tell me , but I've got to ask the right questions , really actively listen to what they share . And then I'm going to bridge us here , mike , because this is so important in a coach approach . It is not to just have a conversation to death .

I say that so respectfully because I hear a lot of people go okay , but we've got to get the wheels in motion . Wheels can only get in motion with the right kind of momentum behind it .

And then we do want to understand how can we translate where we are now , with a vision cast of where we want to go , and a reality of today's today and next week will just be next week .

How do we start moving between where we are now to what will just start to take us again my language an inch or two or a step or two forward , not to the full vision , but just movement in that direction , because momentum is powerful .

And I'm just curious for you to touch on this briefly because in this day and age of the fitfluencers and everything you see on social media and now God forbid chat , gpt and everything that's out there , people come in with some very broad expectations of what it maybe means to eat healthy or exercise because of things they've thought or that they've heard or

they've tried , and there's a lot of misinformation out there and that's just the reality of it . Help me and the audience understand how you can help combat some of that misinformation in a respectful way that doesn't make the person feel like they're an idiot for thinking something that you and I both know is not evidence-based .

I don't know if I'm supposed to do this . This person I follow is , you know , easily , at 4am , mike prepping meals for the next nine days . I mean , this is the kind of information that's out there and I say it so respectfully but truthfully . What I want to sense is again what does that person view as what they perceive ?

You know either has been shared with them directly or you know they perceive from taking in a plethora of information . This is the ideal Once . I have that information , the way in which I can help to . Again , I'm bringing my expertise , so I'm not if someone has shared information that's inaccurate .

There is a process and , again , motivational interviewing offers some great , you know , perspectives on how to do this . But to be able to , with permission , share information , you know , would it be helpful . Mike , I know you mentioned something that kind of caught my attention . See how I'm listening and I acknowledge that , you know .

Could we actually pause on that for a minute ? Maybe we could unpack it together , you know , I'm not sure if you've heard , and then I could layer on some information . No-transcript . I want to see how does that land with you what do you take away ?

Things like maybe you know weight loss , or things that will take more time , changes in A1C or other you know disease states that again we'll need time to develop .

But just starting to correct information , there is a way to do that that does still keep the person at the center of the conversation , meaning it's not my time to lecture I do that in a different forum but I can help them to have accurate information to inform their best next steps .

But this is very much a process , as a coach , of skill acquisition . You learn skills , open-ended questions , active listening is a skill . You mentioned motivational interviewing .

A lot of the people that listen to this podcast are exercise professionals , so can you provide them some direction and some resources to look at where they can sharpen their coaching skills , maybe all the way up to and including what it would look like to become a board certified health and wellness coach ?

It's so wonderful to know options , their coaching skills , maybe all the way up to and including what it would look like to become a board certified health and wellness coach .

So I start with , I think , things that are readily accessible . Of course , there's no shortage of information we've talked about , but I think , some great books . I mean one of the quintessential textbooks that's very informative is the motivational interviewing helping people change .

The fourth edition is the current version , a wonderful resource that applies to all health professionals . So exercise professionals , wellness professionals you know name a title . The information there really does have application . It provides some wonderful direction .

Continuing on the journey , I think you know next opportunity could be continuing education , right , because as credentialed professionals , that is part of remaining a credentialed professional . So looking into perhaps an approved health and wellness coach training program , whether you see yourself practicing under that hat .

To be frank , the skill set will apply to your work presently as an exercise professional for all of time to date . So there's no shortage of options that really could be aligned with maybe a specific focus or population , or just give you context that this is a program that has met rigorous standards . From there , that does set the framework .

If you did want to earn another credential , become a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach , an exam offered in partnership with the National Board of Medical Examiners and then of course I say shameless plug . But the good news , I'm not the only one doing this .

Now you could , of course , pursue additional education , and I do direct a master's program at Point Loma Nazarene University . It's our master's of science in integrative wellness . We bring the whole interdisciplinary team together exercise professionals , learning with physician assistants and occupational therapists and budding psychologists and social workers .

We come together and we learn in a format that is translatable to the way we practice , which is collaboratively . So how exciting , mike , that we could actually learn together , so we could go out and practice and serve people together .

One thing I do want to ask you before we kind of move to the end of our discussion is the health and wellness coaching profession is on its professionalization journey , very similar to the professionalization journey we're on as our audience is listening to this .

We're in the midst of releasing our 12 podcast in collaboration with the ACSM on the Health Fitness Journal on professionalization and advocacy , and one of the articles that we had in there was looking at what the health and wellness coaching profession is doing and kind of how that is a little bit ahead of where we're at what the health and wellness coaching

profession is doing and kind of how that is a little bit ahead of where we're at on the path . So I guess , with that as a little bit of pretext , tell us kind of how you view the professionalization work that's happening in the health and wellness coaching profession right now .

example . It's certainly not a feat , it's clearly not done by one person . It takes , you know , an entire group of people , many individuals , many organizations coming together to help set the standards for professionalization Right .

That starts with the training , education and credentialing so important and then this movement into really understanding the interface within practice . So I'm using healthcare particularly because often when we have movement in healthcare , that'll translate to other practice settings .

So , please , I know it's important for me to say that's not the only place health and wellness coaching in this case is happening , even though I do practice in a clinical context but to say , as we move towards things like reimbursement , having things like category three CPT codes that were approved starting in 2020 , things that my team at UCSD , uc San Diego

Health , we've been leading the research on in partnership with the National Board for Health and Wellness Coaching , actually looking at the service utilization , gathering the data continuing to coalesce , the current evidence about the effectiveness of coaching . How does it translate into patient outcomes ?

And then I say another piece that's important in healthcare how does it translate into reduced healthcare costs , which is something those things are both conversations we can be having together .

But to have that conversation , to have the ear of things like the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid services , I mean these are really exciting times in health and wellness coaching .

I think the exercise professional space as well same kind of movement happening , but a lot that we can share amongst our groups in our shared desire to see a more integrated interdisciplinary team .

People are only starting to live a little bit longer and a little bit longer .

So it is a very interesting and complex issue to solve and , as I've said to everyone in the wellness coaching profession , it's exciting for me , from where I sit in the advocacy space for the exercise profession , to just be able to look down the path a little further from where we're at and see the health and wellness coaching profession , because it does provide

us such a good framework for what we need to be thinking about .

And you said it , we need to be looking at outcomes , but it can't just be the health outcomes , it also has to be the financial outcomes , because insurance companies aren't going to pay for something if they don't get an ROI , and so I really have enjoyed looking at the evidence base that health and wellness coaching is producing , because I think that that kind

of cost-effectiveness data is ultimately what's going to get the ear of the people that make the decisions .

You know I've said this for a long time we always hear we need to bridge the gap right .

Honestly , I immersed myself so humbly in understanding health care because , to be honest , as an educator , as a fitness professional , there is no way I could have known the nuances of things like you know , billing and coding . That I laugh . That I know now .

But I can have effective conversations with key decision makers , like a chief medical officer who's looking at population health within a health system , a huge academic health system .

I can have a conversation that focuses on what I know is true about the health outcomes associated with , you know , a service like health and wellness coaching or integrating an exercise professional within a care team that can be providing effective assessment and also treatment .

But I only say this part is if I don't understand sort of the business side of how health care works , to be honest , I'm always , you know , at a disadvantage . So , understanding the other side of the fence , I would put that out there Again .

I recognize the privilege in being able to immerse myself as a doctoral student into a health system intentionally , but even being open to conversations with other members of the care team to understand what's a day in the life of a physician , like of a nurse , like of a registered dietitian , just to also understand some of the nuances in workflow , even if we say

we'd love to have referrals come our way , how would ?

I would love for individuals to check out the Health and Wellbeing Coaching Conference and we'll link up , I know , to that , which is the conference my husband and I have hosted , because , as we professionalize a field of health and wellness coaching , what I realized we have no dedicated professional conference to stay up to date on the latest science .

Skill sets connect with one another . That's how we again , in part , change . So the Health and Wellbeing Coaching Conference great website to check out and see what we've been up to . Annual conference coming up June 6th through 8th of 2025 .

Maybe you could sum up some of the things you said into one thing that you would advise our audience to do to really close off that gap .

I'm in the trenches , so to speak , and I have to imagine , knowing you and knowing your audience , that this will speak volumes to really be humble in the learning . This is ongoing , just like we recognize the people we serve . It's an ongoing journey . It never ends Same for us .

So if we do want to see that gap bridged right , if we do want to see meaningful connections made between the exercise professions and the field of medicine , if we want to see a true integrated interdisciplinary team , we , as individuals I can't speak for everyone who's listening , you'll know yourself best individual listener but I would take inventory of the things

that you know very well right now and the things that would benefit you to humbly learn more about , to ask questions , to be curious all the marks of a great coach . Apply that in your own professional journey , because that's how you can be . I say the jack of many trades . I was told that would be a bad thing in life , Mike , but I will argue .

What I've been able to do is synthesize information that's often fragmented into an understanding of health and well-being , and that actually is the real answer to how we will support people in living most optimally .

Forward slash episode 134 . Please be on the lookout for our next episode when it drops in two weeks , and don't forget to subscribe through your favorite podcast platform . Until we chat again next time , please be well .