Sandy Pasley: Teaching values falls on parents as well as schools

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Explanation of the World.

And welcome back to the Weekend Collective. By the way, if you've missed any of the previous hours, always an interesting chat with Kelvin Davidson from core Logic on what the property market's doing and whether it matters whether you're buying a new house or an old one. But if you've missed and up, my goodness that the panel today with Luke Dallo and Carmacdonald was raucus and quite good fun.

I'm great, Tim, thank you.

Thanks for coming on board. By the way, we thought we'd just ease you in with that song. We always have a song choice, and you didn't necessarily have a choice of song, but you said I like a bit of the Carpenter and who doesn't because and you coincided with my producer Tyra, who I think Tyra is a big fan of the Carpenters as well. So that's just

I think it's incredibly important him. I think values are what make having strong values or what make a good community person. And the role of schools is surely to educate a community so that they become really valued members of that community and are able to contribute, and that's the whole point of governments being involved in schools is so that the population is educated and educated in such a way that they are all good community members.

Because values are also subjective, aren't they. So I guess it's easier when you're with a school like Barridine there is a specific charter and people know when they send their children. There's a buy in, isn't there Definitely, Whereas I guess if somebody is going to just the college that they're in zone or the school they're in zone. But there's still a role for a huge role for schools to play. It's just like, I guess, how far can they go with teaching values? Do you think?

I think even any school has got an important role playing imparting values for instance, social justice, the importance of social justice, the importance of equality, and the importance of being responsible for others as well as yourself. Those things, no matter whether you're at a Catholic school or a state school or a private school, all really important.

I meant to actually sorry, I needed one of the audience to get to know you a little bit, so I launched into the question there because I was running hot. But how long have you been involved in an education yourself or roughly? Actually actually no, no, let's just shorten that one. You were a principal of Bardeene College for how long?

Thirteen and a half years, and before that, I was principal of Saint Mary's College in Pontsmbe for nine and a half years, and before that I was deputy principal at Birkenhead College on the North Shore.

Okay, because you and before that you're teaching, you're a teacher. Obviously before you come on principal. It's chemistry. You're bad, was it?

That's right?

Wow? What made you get into chemistry?

I did a degree in chemistry at a target university, which I loved and so much so that when I finished the degree, I didn't really feel like I wanted to leave and went back for another year post grad.

Yeah. Oh, that's just what my students do when you haven't quite worked out what you're going to do. I guess, is that right exactly?

And in those days you could get a studentship and be paid to go to university, which I appealed to me in those times at that time, because I was really quite feeling like I needed some money not relying on my appearance. So I actually took up a studentship, and with that studentship meant I had to teach for a year.

OK so you sort of you sort of fell into teaching in a way because that was just a requirement. And then what did you think, this is not so bad?

Yep, exactly that. I really perhaps, looking back, I didn't choose to be a teacher when I was younger. Yeah, but it got under my skin.

Really was it an instant thing? Or as soon as you did it you just sort of thought, I mean, you must have had some good kids as well at your teaching, because if you'd had a bunch of rat bags, it might have been a bit less fun. I'm guessing. Sorry.

I think when I was a young teacher, I wasn't that good. I can't remember having it. Probably in those days they had classes streamed and I had four C two, which was the lowest science class in form four in at wait take you girls? Yeah, and I found them quite uncontrollable sometimes, so I resorted to things I wasn't supposed to do, like send them out of the classroom to stand outside of like I really annoyed at them.

Yeah, well, that doesn't sound too radical, does it? When did you just? When did? When did leaderships? When did taking roles like being a deputy principal? When did that become part of your sort of picture?

I guess I loved the classroom and I love teaching, but I also saw the benefit of being able to influence things on a wider scale, and that's what you can do in senior leadership in particular as a principle.

Does it when you do end up in those positions, does it make you examine how hard do you have to think about what, in fact you do want to impart to young people? And how how far a school can go in having a say in values, because there'd be certain social issues where families would think, actually, that school should have nothing to do with it. How did was that a different Was it an interesting journey for you working out that side of things?

I think it was. It was really important to me that students get the opportunity to be educated now, and I guess that was inherent because my mother certainly went through high school, but my father was never given the opportunity to go to high school. And I saw what

Do you think general schools, I mean, this is hard to make a judgment on this sort of thing, but do you think that we're doing a good job with outside of the family home, with the institutions like schools of teaching kids about values or are people a bit Is it something that you sort of tread lightly because I know you get the wrong message out there, or something that parents give you a hard time and then all of a sudden you're like, hang on, are we right doing that? What do you think?

Oh? I think it's important because I think that not only should you be saying and educating about values, but you should also be modeling it in the school. And I think that's something that parents sometimes as a parent it's hard you say what you think, but are you really modeling it to your children? And that's always more difficult as a parent.

It's easier in a way for schools, doesn't it to sort of push that values because you're not around the twenty four to seven where you can be accused of hypocrisy. Swearing would be the classic one where you say to your kids, don't use that sort of language. Well, dad, but I've heard you say that word. And I go, well, and I must say, I think I have fallen back on the line. It's like, Okay, I've got to be honest.

I think you should.

Yes, definitely to But it's harder for parents though, isn't it.

Oh?

It is If you say that you really care and about others and you don't want to make sure they're okay, and then you, as a parent, don't show that by something that you do. It's really hard. You know, what are your children picking up on? And it's really hard. Nobody's perfect. We'll all make mistakes.

Well, I guess that's part of it as well. Is that if you make mistakes, and it's how you deal with that side of things. I always I do struggle with the whole hypocrisy things because I guess, for instance, there are rules around what adults and children count and can't do, and they're different. There's a different set of rules as well around alcohol and things like that, and so I don't know. I'm not sure how to manage that.

Think it's important that each student feels that they have got something special and that they are confident, and I really believe that. I think that if you feel good about yourself, then you'll certainly support and help other people. I think that if the child is not feeling good about themselves, it's very difficult for them to look outside themselves.

How important for you then at Barradine. And look, it's not for you to be singing the praises of Barradine, but Baradine at least when it comes to academic results, features up the top. There, along with some other very fine schools, is part of that academic success absolutely contingent on the value side of things, which is a difficult question. I know, yes, because you can really drum things into

Yep. And I think you probably absorbed that and he cared about you. Yeah, And I think that that's what teach do. They can look at who's in front of them and think, I really care about these students. Now, how do I get the best out of them? And as for academic success, I think the reason academic success is good if each student reaches their potential, is it opens doors for the future and it's really a gate opening process where it means that they have got possibilities.

Is it more difficult because one of the things we had I think you might have caught this hour we had with the principle of Vanguard School as well, which surprised me. I was expecting a discussion which was all about what we did cover off discipline and things. But it was interesting about what was driving their success. But the question around discipline, how much does that play a

And I think it's important in students if they make mistakes, there are consequences, and I think that's what's hard about being a parent is teaching your child consequences at an early stage. I think the most difficult thing for schools is when parents and schools are not on the same page.

And how is that possible from because it's there's hundreds of parents and hundreds of students in one school. What are the sort of are they sort of non negotiable I don't mean non negotiable, but what are the clear areas of easy overlap? Do you think?

Well? I think sometimes with schools, a student may make a mistake and the school may want the student to learn from that mistake, and it needs really the parents to be on board with that learning because if it doesn't happen, the consequences down the track when they leave school and they realize, you know, they've been not made to face consequences, it can be quite serious if they do silly things.

So actually, if we were talking about this off I was going to say, off camera, off Mike before the show started, because you have When you were the principal at Barrideen, you would meet every student, There'd be a get together and the student would be front and center, Mum and dad just on the side there, but you would interview them. Was that an important part of sort of like an informal contract or agreement. This is what

Is it exactly exactly? Tim ittt was really important and being a Catholic school was really important that the parents were buying into all that meant and hence the discussion because I think it's important people know and therefore there's no surprises, it's transparent.

Yeah, okay, look your calls on this, Sandy and I are going to continue chatting about this, about the role that, as they say, it takes a village, parents, caregivers, family community. But and parents do their best. We all do our best to instill the values that we hold dear, But what are the what role do you tolerate? I guess would be the slightly more stronger way of asking the question, what role do you tolerate your school making when it

By week the.

News Talk zed b. My name's Tim Beverages. You know, my guest is Sandy Pasley, who's the former princill at baradin College. Now the idea, the idea to get Sandy on the show as well was because she is I haven't had hidden which school my kids go to. Of course I share a little bit about them, but they do go to Baradene College. And for me, the journey to as a non I'm an atheist, as someone who's not religious, the decision to go along with my wife's

Hello, oh hello, how's it going all right?

Thanks? What you got a question or an observation? What would you like to say.

More than observation. I've been living in Queensland, Australia for probably about four years. I've got two children over there, my daughter's sixteen and my son's nineteen, and I would have loved to have bought them up, but with their special needs and that they were with the grand care parents for probably for probably a good eight years or so until my mother in law passed away, probably longer with my son and my daughter, and so that's one

You've got a couple of teenagers. I gather they're nineteen and sixteen now.

Ah yeah, no, the both of them are bigger than me now, so they're both different from one another. My son Caleb, his likes adventure and when we had that cyclone over there, he disappeared because he wanted to ghost from the flooded creek.

How did you influence how did you influence their values? Then we can bring it on to our the sort of focus of our conversation, how you influenced their values or have you had to trust others to do it?

Graham, I've had.

A good support network. Both my parents have passed away, and I haven't been that close to my immediate family because I mean they've had their own kids and so forth. And but just I'm part of a church group or network because I've been to different ones and I've just tried to get my son, my daughter. It's a bit different she's not, so she's such struggling with.

Got a question you'd like to put to Sandy. I've got to hear, so I want to bring her own on the conversation.

Was it, yeah, oh sure, okay, this kind of thing because my children they dropped out of school just like a year or two ago.

Yeah, look, I might just put you on hold there and Graham and Steff my produce might have a quick tat to this if you want to pass on a question for Sandy. But actually that isn't that is a What Graham has mentioned is we've got broken families all the time, and the challenge of it it is of who's raising your children? So I don't even know what to say apart from that, what how on a second, let's see have Graham's still there? No, No, I'll tell you what. We'll move on from that, because I don't

Well, I think some schools that might be the case, but also a lot of schools probably still call the teacher mister or missus or miss and I think that's all part of a value in society. We have respect for doctors, we call them doctor so and so, and it's learning that people have a title and it's nice to be respecting of that title. But also the same I'd say teachers also respect students as.

Well, because and in the end, it doesn't matter what you're being called if you're not. If you're not treating your children or the students with respect, then you're probably not going to end much back in return, are you No?

I agree entirely, And students pick up on that pretty quickly.

At Barradine, What were the values for that you think were important to instill in your students that were, you know, the fundamental ones that were also an important part of their education.

I think the big one is respect is respecting who you are. Because we were Catholic. Catholic school it's respecting that everyone has been given life that's precious, and we respect each other but also respect ourselves, and that respect has to be fundamental through a school for a school to function well. I also think those values of social justice are really important. It's and that one of the

Is that one of the is that one of the things where we it's one of the modern society traps that we have. I don't want to generalize, because we all do, don't we But I might say if I was generalizing that there is a lot of virtue signaling that goes on with perhaps the younger generation, but in society in general, people say this is what I stand for. I believe in X, Y and Z or saving the planet or whatever. But they're not following it up. They're not.

Yeah, I do. And that's why that goal is so important that impels to action doing something about it, not just talking about it. And I think that's saying that your actions speak loud strong than words is really important.

So what did you do at Barodam with regard to those sorts of things to teaching those kids.

Yell social awareness? As students had to actually go out into the community, and it was part of the program at year eleven, but they went out for six weeks, went into retirement villages, went into schools that needed some support, went into places like food banks where they could see the need and actually worked and did something about it. And I think young people really respond to actually being able to get their hands into something and not just talk about it.

Yeah. I was just thinking of the things that you were talking about, going in to homes and hospitals or where you can do something useful in it. I just remember some of the things I've done with charity wise, and there's one is a huge difference to doing something that's detached from the reality of it and then suddenly getting in and being hands on the ground and whatever charity that you're involved with makes a huge difference, isn't it.

Well? I was brought up in a Catholic family. I had good parents who try to install me good values, and they were all I was a youngster of six. I've failed at times, but later on I learned about respect. God turned my life around from drugs, alcohol and suicide for my team, and then I ended up becoming a father myself with two children that ended up with special needs. They've got add all these different labels that they put upon kids, But I just knew that.

So you must have relied that. You must have relied on their school to text me a bit of values as well, I guess as well, if you weren't there for them at the time.

Ah. My son went to a good school was Varsity Lakes on the Gold Coast, near a place called Rabina. And if my son was good and listening to the teachers and so forth, they had a therapy dog that was there. And my son loves animals and so he got to spend time with the dog. You know.

Oh good stuff, No good stuff. Hey Graham, we're running but short of time, so we'll keep moving on. But thanks for your core mate, I appreciate it. It is twenty four minutes to six News Talks, he'd be The question we're looking at is just the role of the of organizations like schools and other community organizations outside of the home, and how far you expect your children's school to teach your kids certain values and what should those values be that you'd like them to be taught. It

Oh yeah, swait a minute, this pro closed man.

Such a time.

It's welcome back to the show. I'm Tim Beverager. This is the weekend Collective Parents Parents Squad and my guest is Sandy Pasley, who's a former principal at Barridine College, which is a Catholic school. It's a very high performing school. But what is the secret and not necessarily what's the secret, but what's the role in teaching values to your children? Because when we signed our kids up to Burrading, we were clear about what sort of values the school was

I mean it's great if parents have got a choice and they've got the ability to move to a school that they might see as espousing the same values that they appreciate. But a lot of schools, for a lot of people, they're zoned for a particular school, and it's not possible.

So what happens with this? What's the policy? Do you know within the education of the way schools teach certain values, because there are some values which is totally subjective.

There's some pretty inherent values in our education system, as I said about social justice, equality, learning, resilience, working hard, being respectful.

Yeah, okay, So here's a question on consequences high sanity. What consequences to teachers generally use now that corporal punishment is not an option. I'm hearing you talking about presenting a sense of purpose and value and worth, which I imagine deter much bad behavior. Is that sort of part of the whole thing is that we fell back too much in corporal punishments like where you've stepped out of line whack, rather than approaching it from a different angle.

Yep. I think it's important for students to feel the school that they go to that sense of belonging in sense of community and sense of being part of something that's special and more than themselves.

Really, is that the biggest part of it, because I get the sense that that is probably one of the most important things that kids get. Is I shouldn't say kids all the time. Children is the community as just being part of something that's bigger than themselves. If a school gets that right, does a lot of it work out for it? Does the rest sort of follow in a way without having to get into the nitty gritty about other values.

Yes, it definitely does, I mean, and it's the same for parents, and parents are part of that community too, and they feel it's their school. You get that tremendous support from parent body and that's some things like taking sports teams and volunteering and just and also supporting when a school makes a decision that they might.

How do you manage that when you get resistance from parents because you know it's a large community. How do you manage the pushback from some parents to say, I don't like what you've done there?

Yeah? I think first of all, you've got to listen. As a school and as a parent, you can understand sometimes where they're coming from, but sometimes as a principal, you've got to look at the greater You've got to look at everybody and how that's affecting other people. So you can't just say it doesn't matter that your child does that. It does matter because it is affecting others. So you've got to look at the bigger picture.

How much of a conflict is there between being a parent and being a principle for you, because well, they're two different jobs, aren't they?

But they I think they give you a really good insight being a parent, which.

Was more useful, is much more useful to be a parent if you were did being a principal help you better with being a parent or did it being a parent help you more with being a principle.

I think being a parent helped me with being a principal. You understand kids. You understand, they make mistakes, You realize, you know how difficult it can be for them transitioning certain times in their life. And I think you've got that greater understanding. That's not to say somebody who's not got children is not understanding, but it's it's.

Just an aspect of your life which you bring to the job. I guess here's a text, he says, Hey, mate, my children's school has a meet the teacher in term four for the next year's class, and parents are giving one given a one page of the new teachers values and hobbies, et cetera, and things like that. The school try is hard to match children to teachers and families to see see the starts and values of the teachers, and families aren't happy with the match for whatever reason.

Absolutely goodness, I think that would be quite hard to run a school like that.

Yeah, okay, let's have a look at a couple of other texts I, Sandy, what consequences? Oh, Sor, I've already read that one. I've just got a little note for you from someone who was taught you taught at y Tech. It says Sandy Pasley was an inspiring and fun chemistry teacher. When she taught me at why Tachi, we learned, well, here's the list. We learned kindness, respect and responsibility from her. Of great memories of having Sandy's baby daughter Penny in

Oh that's so nice to Did you have your.

Baby with your class went back to work early?

I did, and I can tell you a funny story about that, because they were desperate for a chemistry teacher. And I came back. I was on maternity leave and Penny was a bit of a monkey on stage.

She your baby daughter.

Yeah, she was underneath the desk when I was teaching chemistry and she one day she took off all her clothes and I had to get the whole class not to react because otherwise it would have been something she did all the time.

That does sound a difficult one these days, doesn't it? With THEE in a chemistry lab. Yeah, anyway, I look what else we got. It's not a school's okay, it's not a school's job to teach values, but it's vitally important that the values of the school and in the home are consistent or at least simpatico with each other.

Well.

That seems like a bit of common sense, doesn't it.

Definitely?

So what are you up to from now that you've we haven't retired, you have your former principal at Barode But what's what are the challenges that you're working on now in education?

Well, Tim, I've set up a company as an education consultant, and what I'd like to do is support the education in Auckland in ways that I can, especially leaders in Auckland principles.

Yeah, was it hard to leave the job of being principal at Baradine.

Very I loved it.

Yeah, I imagine it must have been a hell of it. In fact, I imagine you probably have to keep away for a little bit, don't you, Because when you've been a principle of some standing in that community, you sort of got to remove yourself from the shadow of the or not cast your shadow, I guess, isn't it?

Or Alex the new Principal's fantastic. So I think Baradine's future is in great hands.

Yeah, hey, look, we'd love to have you back sometime. That has flown by, and it's lovely to have you in the studio. Thanks so much, and we'll look forard to catching you know.

Thanks very much, Tom, I've enjoyed it.

Cheers. We'll be back in just a moment with sport. Who's joining us? Nathan Lim will be joining us in just a moment. This is news Talk, said B. It's coming up to twelve minutes to six.

Can I take for more from the weekend collective. Listen live to News Talk SEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.